THE ASSEMBLY IN RELATION TO DIVINE ADMINISTRATION (2)
[p. 357] THE ASSEMBLY IN RELATION TO DIVINE ADMINISTRATION (2)
Matthew 14 and Matthew 15
JT What came before us previously was, that in presence of the rejection of the Lord’s ministry by Israel, He is consciously superior in praising the Father, recognising Him as Lord of heaven and earth, and as revealing to the babes what He was hiding from the wise and prudent. Then Christ Himself becomes a model for all who labour and are heavy-laden; coming to Him they would find rest, and would learn from Him, so that He stands out as the model in view of what He had before Him to introduce, namely, the kingdom as we have it now, and the assembly. He therefore becomes the beginning. Then in chapter 12 He is Lord of the Sabbath, having in that way authority to break the bond that existed between God and Israel, the sabbath being the sign of that bond, and He calls attention to the relative value of a man as compared with a sheep, indicating that men were now in view, not simply Israelites; that is, men as such. He deals with the man with the withered hand so that it becomes whole, further announcing that a greater than Solomon was there, and a greater than Jonas; and thus chapter 12, coupled with chapter 11 brings the Lord before us in an objective way; then chapter 13 brings in His sowing; He sits down to announce the truth. “He went into a ship and sat down”. (verse 2) The thought of His sitting down is in evidence, which, I think, points to care and deliberation as to what was before Him; an element that we do well to take note of, because in the Lord’s service we are apt to be rash. It is well to be deliberate and thoughtful. In the synagogue at Nazareth He stood up for to read, but here He [p. 358] sits down.
ENH Do you think there is added force in the fact that it is not a Person who is said to be greater than Solomon or the temple, it is more than Solomon and more than the temple? Do you think it is not only the Lord Himself; but what He is bringing in, the assembly?
JT I suppose the kingdom was included at any rate, so it is not so much He, but what is greater. I think it involved the kingdom. “If I by the Spirit of God cast out demons, then indeed the kingdom of God is come upon you”. (Matthew 12:28).
ENH Do you think it involves more than the kingdom?
JT I think He refers to Himself and the power that He exercised.
HH How do you regard the sowing? Would you regard it as having a subjective effect?
JT The position of sitting suggests that He sowed with the greatest deliberation, and in conscious superiority; He was not troubled by circumstances. The sowing refers to what is subjective; it is an agricultural reference which is invariably subjective. The sun, moon, and stars represent what is objective, but when you come to the earth it is what is subjective. We do well to take note of the deliberation with which the Lord carried on His service.
EJMcB We left off yesterday at what was a very interesting point in the reading, when the question was before us as to the importance of the house.
JT I think it fits in with chapter 14, which takes up definitely the question of administration, not only in the hands of Christ, but in the hands of the disciples. Chapters 12 and 13 present what He carries on Himself; His own work, and the principle of example appears throughout. It is of great importance in service to be restful. God would have us on His own side; in service we are on God’s side.
[p. 359] God is not disturbed by any conditions, so that the Lord is here in complete superiority to conditions, whether on the shore or in the boat. He is perfectly restful, so that the work is carried on with deliberation.
Ques Would you mind repeating what was said yesterday in regard of administration?
JT Administration marks chapters 14 and 15, but we went rather wide afield yesterday. I wanted to get to the point in chapter 13 of the example that the Lord set in regard of ministry. No farmer would sow under unfavourable conditions; I think the Lord sitting shows that He is in supremacy, He will not be disturbed or forced by conditions, He sows with deliberation. The truth is too important to admit of conditions affecting one in the work. Then He proceeds to speak the remarkable parable of the sowing of the seed, with a view to fruit.
Ques Why does Jonas come in here?
JT He was a remarkable servant of God; his experience was unparalleled; he was three days and three nights in the fish’s belly; a most extraordinary experience. He was a type of the Lord Himself. Think of a man coming out of the fish’s belly on to the dry land and then being sent to Nineveh. I suppose the Jews would regard him as a most remarkable servant of God.
HH I think you said that as being in the fish’s belly, Jonah was a type of Christ.
JT He was, and these two personages, the queen of the south and Jonah, being introduced, hint at what was in the Lord’s mind — the area of the place of service was going to be extended.
R.D. What did that cover?
JT The greatness of Solomon had extended beyond the limits of Israel, so that it affected one so far away as the queen of the south. The Lord intimates that there was something greater; He hints too at the world-wide testimony that He was about [p. 360] to render; and it was for them to take heed to that.
RD Is that in view from the very outset of Matthew, the Lord being spoken of as the Son of David and Son of Abraham?
JT No doubt the evangelist had administration in his mind. Abraham was the depositary of the promises, David the administrator of them.
RD I thought that scope was in view.
JT Yes, and so Solomon comes in as the counterpart of David; the area of his administration was widened out to the queen of the south.
EJMcB Is it important to notice that He is presented first as Son of David before Son of Abraham? That is, as Administrator He is on the line of promise.
JT Quite so; David is the one raised up of God to be the ruler, and he administers. “Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may show the kindness of God unto him?” (2 Samuel 9:3) He was a suitable man to administer what was of God in divine bounty.
EJMcB I thought the man coming out of the whale’s belly would suggest that he is beyond the limitations of the national thought of Israel.
JT Jonah got his experience outside the limits of Israel. These men were qualified to administer. Solomon is the counterpart of David, in fact he is a type of Christ as Son of David.
HH In connection with the result of the sowing it says, some an hundred fold, some sixty fold, some thirty fold. What would you say as to that?
JT This chapter presents the kingdom in seven phases, and in this particular parable of the sower, Matthew contemplates the decline of power in result, whereas Mark contemplates increase, thirty, sixty, a hundred. I think Matthew treats more of what is connected with the public vessel of testimony, whereas Mark is occupied with what is connected with the Spirit; the end is greater than the beginning, he himself being an example of that. Mark was more [p. 361] efficient after he had been restored than he was at the beginning.
ENH Luke gives only a hundred fold; would that be the result of the Lord’s own ministry?
JT It would be the full result of the grace of God, without modifications. It is humiliating to have to be reminded of decline; thirty is a fair yield, but when you think it might have been a hundred, it humbles you. If you review your history, you see how much better things might have been than they are.
EM As to the favourable conditions you referred to, why did Paul say that Timothy was to preach in season and out of season?
JT I was speaking of a person’s state of soul. If you consider the weather you will not go out, but I was not speaking of that, but of state of soul. The Lord here shows His complete superiority in service; He was not affected at all by conditions. I think Acts 2 compared with this shows how the testimony began. Peter was not in any way under the influence of what had preceded in his own history, otherwise he could not have stood up as he did at Pentecost; he would have been hampered by his own state. Now he is in such deliverance that he can speak to them about their having denied the Lord. One always goes back to his sermon for an example; he stood up with the eleven, the eleven accredited witnesses of Christ, and announced the message. It is therefore important that anyone serving in the world should be free in his own soul; he should see to that himself; and the saints should see to it too. Paul considered for Timothy: “See that he may be with you without fear”. If a man work the work of the Lord, be sure you do not throw any hindrances in his way, but rather the opposite. Timothy was evidently a retiring man, and naturally timid. Paul said to the Corinthians, “I look for him with the brethren”; (1 Corinthians 16:10,11) instead of the brethren coming with him, he came with them. He was just a brother, and therefore a model for the last days; he was to be with them without fear, not hampered in any way. The letter to him places the responsibility on his shoulders, but the letter to the Corinthians places responsibility as to him on their shoulders.
EM A servant needs a sympathetic atmosphere.
JMcM Sowing supposes fruit. Is it that there should be those who should carry on the administration?
JT The sowing in chapter 13 brings in the multitude. “Solomon had a vineyard at Baal-hamon (master of a multitude)”. (Song of Songs 8:11). The multitude is set in order in chapters 14 to 18. There we get instruction how we are to be regulated, but the sowing brings in the multitude. In the Acts you have the thing historically; there were multitudes of those who believed, but the “master of assemblies” has to consider how the saints are to be regulated, so that they should be here locally as vessels of God’s will. The instruction in chapters 14 to 18 is in order that we should be regulated here as the assembly of God. A good deal of instruction is necessary to qualify us to take up that position.
J.McM. Under the Lord?
JT Surely. He has redemption rights. The yield of the vineyard was to be in silver; there was to be an answer there to redemption. The Lord has His rights over His people.
RD “Everyone for the fruit thereof was to bring a thousand pieces of silver”. (Song of Songs 8:11)
JT That is what I was thinking of. The trumpets in Numbers 10 were to be made of silver, and those would bring the saints into rank, whether it were for war or for discipline. The silver trumpets [p. 363] were employed to call them into line; and that is the side which this gospel emphasises.
Ques Do I understand there are three thoughts in your mind; first the model, then the gathering of the material, and then the adjustment of the material to the model?
JT That is right, but the lack with us is that we are content to belong to the multitude, but Solomon looks for a yield, he let the vineyard out to husbandmen. Evidently a lover speaks in verse 12, “Thou, O Solomon must have a thousand, and those that keep the fruit thereof two hundred”. He got his full yield, and we should not be content with less than that, and note too, the keepers get their portion. I think all that comes out in the assembly.
WK I hope you will be able to show us how it does come out.
JT That is what we are aiming at, and as we go on with our chapters, I hope we may see how these principles apply. This is preliminary; the Lord is showing us how He does things.
Rem The Lord is now introducing a new thing for God, and it is transitional; He starts with a small thing, the seed, and then it grows.
JT We are not told what the first seed is that He sowed, it was some grain. The point evidently is that there was a sowing, but in the next parable it is wheat, and in the next a mustard seed. The first parable impresses us with the principle of sowing, and how a man sews; it is occupied with the fact that he sows, and the result of his sowing; then in verse 31 it is a grain of mustard seed, the least of all seeds. Wheat is obviously a grain of very great value. The enemy would try specially to spoil that by imitation.
RB Where does this find any analogy in connection with the work of the Lord?
[p. 364] JT I think the reference here is to the service of the apostles.
RD In the beginning of Acts?
JT Yes. The first four parables refer to what was public and the effect of it, the last three refer to what belongs to the assembly.
RD What about putting the good into vessels?
JT That is spoken of in connection with the house.
RD I wondered if you had in your mind the general idea of forming assemblies in connection with putting the good into vessels?
JT Fish are living things; we have in the first of Genesis vegetable life and animal life; both are typical of Christianity; when you come to the net, you pass on to the fifth day of Genesis 1.
EJMcB The agricultural figure is then dropped?
JT Yes. The fish would be living creatures; in the first of Genesis they are called souls, they have life.
Rem He spoke in parables in regard of things kept secret from the foundation of the world.
JT Yes, and I think the moral reality of the first of Genesis was secret until the Lord came; so you have in this chapter the idea of antiques. “Every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven ... bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old”. He has in his treasure all the things of the Old Testament that refer to Christ; the older they are the better they are. Elsewhere old things are to be discarded, but here they are valuable; the Lord brought them out in Luke 24:27. “He expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself”. They were all the beautiful antiques, one might say, of the Old Testament.
HH The scribe would look at all the Old Testament as having reference to Christ?
JT The enemy would lessen its value, but that [p. 365] is only a stepping stone to attack the New Testament. The Scriptures cannot be broken; they have their own value. Every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens has a treasury.
EJMcB I think the human figure is exceedingly good; if a person buys a house and furnishes it, the more he would value antiques.
JT In other words, the more spiritual you are, the more you would value the Old Testament.
EJMcB We would like a little help in regard of chapter 14, how we are set in order, so that we might become distinct from the crowd.
JT The crowd is seen in verses 14 to 17. The Lord says, “Give ye them to eat”. The first service in this connection is to give people something to eat.
ENH Then they have to bring the little they have to Him, and He uses them as instruments through whom He can give abundant supplies.
Ques Would the five loaves and two fishes represent the Old Testament?
JT It is what they had, it did not represent the system at Jerusalem, it represented what was spiritual; what the Lord was taking up, and was going to use.
RWG What do the twelve baskets over represent? In the following parable we have seven baskets. I understand the twelve are small hand-baskets, while the seven are large baskets. Is the thought of the twelve, administration at the beginning of Christianity? If so, what do the seven large baskets represent?
JT The Spirit, I suppose; the miracle in chapter 14 would set forth apostolic administration, and that in chapter 15 what there is for us by the Spirit.
RWG Is there more food for the saints at the end of the dispensation, than there was at the [p. 366] beginning?
JT I should not care to minimise what they had at the beginning, but I think the seven large baskets point to the fulness of the Spirit. That is a great encouragement now, and although the apostles are not here and public administration has disappeared (I think the brethren will not misunderstand that), yet spiritual administration has not disappeared; it remains. There is that which lies in the Spirit, and there is no limit to it; there is administration in a spiritual way for those who are humble enough to keep out of sight; the Spirit is with them, but public administration as represented by the word twelve has ceased. I think we must accept that. Chapter 15 gives us the seven large baskets; what they represent remains.
RD Would not what we have in chapter 14 be a great gain to us as a model?
JT That is important. If we are to get the truth, we must go back to the beginning and see what then existed. By comparing that with what now exists publicly, we have a sense of the ruin brought home to us.
RD It is a great study for us, the way the multitude was fed.
GWW In our souls we hold on to the twelve as light, but as to actual fact we avail ourselves of the seven.
RWG In regard to the administration of the twelve, was not their support in what was spiritual?
JT There was nothing official at the beginning that was not supported by the Spirit. That which was official and that which was spiritual were correlative at the beginning; in time the two separated. The addresses to the assemblies in the Revelation show that they did, but the Holy Spirit remains. Matthew 16:18, “On this rock I will build my assembly”, should be connected with the spiritual side. The administrative side has collapsed; those who profess [p. 367] to be the apostolic successors are not spiritual men. We could hardly say they have the Spirit, whereas the Spirit remains here and is in those who are out of sight and who in accepting that are of no account. Such get the good of the Spirit; they have the light in their souls and act on it in their private capacity, but do not assume to be in the position of administering publicly on the behalf of Christ.
Ques “Bring them hither to me”. How do you apply that?
JT Take those whom the Lord employs in a spiritual way now, they would not fit into any official place at all. We have to accept that we are not fit for the public official thing as it is now regarded.
RD In this respect it is still the character of the babes in chapter 11.
GWW Do both the miracles of feeding the multitudes teach us that we are not self-contained? In connection with administration, we must have to do with the Lord. It is not that we have something we can carry on with apart from Him.
JT That is an important lesson. Taken together the fishes and loaves represent what was to be administered. Two fishes would have their own meaning, a testimony to something. They were very little taken together to meet the situation; it was a serious matter for the disciples, but they were to learn how the Lord could enlarge what they had. The Lord will take what you have and enlarge it, so that you need not go beyond your measure. The disciples knew what they had. A lesson that may be gathered from this passage is that at the present time we should not exclude from our thoughts anyone that belongs to Christ. It corresponds with Psalm 132:15, “I will satisfy her poor with bread”. We may be in danger of a sort of super-spirituality, arrogating to ourselves what really belongs to all;
every one of Zion’s poor must be taken account of. No one who seeks to minister Christ should have anything less than that before him. We are to be thinking of all, and what the Lord is giving is in relation to all. It is wonderful how one hears of souls getting refreshment in unheard of ways. We are apt to get on to narrow lines unless we take into account all that belong to Christ. “The Lord knoweth them that are his”. (2 Timothy 2:19).
HH The Lord commanding to sit down on the grass, has that reference to His personal authority in the house?
JT That was a mark of His consideration for them. He took account of the grass; it would afford certain comfort as they sat down. Whilst we do not take the place of being public administrators, the administration goes on; the food is available in that way. We want to consider for the saints. These chapters are to qualify us for what is brought out in chapters 16 and 18.
RG Would the sitting down involve quietness of spirit on our side in being ministered to?
Rem The New Translation reads, “He caused the crowds to recline”. We have to seek to get them quiet, so that they might get the benefit of what is administered. It is not only that we ourselves have to be quiescent, but we have to get others into a quiescent state.
GN What is the character of public administration in contrast with spiritual administration?
JT Public administration was in connection with the apostles. The epistle to the Corinthians was the public recognition of the assembly. Now that having become “a great house”, as 2 Timothy 2:20 indicates, it is a question for all the saints how they are to walk in the light of that letter now. That is the exercise. I think Matthew 15 helps us on that point, because it is a question now of what is spiritual.
[p. 369] As to our public attitude, we are humble about it; the assembly is a failure publicly; there is no value in trying to re-establish it. We have to accept the situation, and go on under reproach. No one knows us; we have to appeal to the Lord. What is the use of pretending to be administrators in an official way? It is better to accept what exists; all that we need will be there, food and everything else, but there must be no pretence.
RB Do you connect the feeding of the multitudes in chapter 15 with what obtains now?
JT I do. The Lord calls attention to the seven loaves, and the mind is at once occupied with that number. The presence of the Holy Spirit here and Christ on high as the Head of the assembly have been called attention to, and are still available. It seems to me that we get instruction in the facts presented in chapter 15, as to what has been recovered in these last days.
HH Do you look at chapter 15 in the light of divine Persons?
JT Yes. In chapter 14:19, the Lord looked up to heaven; but in chapter 15:36, He gave thanks simply. It does not say He looked up to heaven, because administration is in connection with heaven; The kingdom of the heavens is the administration of heavenly bounty here. In chapter 15 it is the Lord speaking to God simply.
HH We can still have things in relation to divine Persons; this suggests John’s ministry, “We know that the Son of God is come”. Things are viewed in relation to divine Persons; and on the other hand we can have things in Paul’s ministry which are light and direction to us in relation to the failure and ruin which have come in as in 2 Timothy when difficulty and departure are contemplated.
JT I think John’s ministry would fit in with chapter 15, the way in which the giving of thanks is [p. 370] spoken of. The Lord simply gives thanks as if the ministry of the Spirit is centred in that form. I refer to the Lord’s supper having acquired such a remarkable place in the affections of the saints; the Supper brings Him in in a peculiar way, and the food that is connected with it; the Holy Spirit bringing in the wealth of God. All that is pictured for us in chapter 15, and corresponds with what, through grace, we have proved in some measure. It is well to remember the unlimitedness of the Spirit; the ministry goes on; the Holy Spirit Himself speaks at the end to the Lord, “the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. (Revelation 22:17).
GWW In the first incident you have five thousand and in the second four thousand. Does five suggest the possibility of weakness, and four that which cannot break down?
JT No doubt, and that which is universal too.