SPOIL (9)
[p. 410] SPOIL (9)
1 Corinthians 5: 3 - 5; 2 Corinthians 2: 1 - 11; Revelation 3: 7 - 12
JT Most of us know that, in considering the subject of “Spoil”, we have looked at the virtuous woman, in Proverbs 31, as a type of the assembly furnishing spoil for Christ; and pursuing the thought we looked at several passages in the book of Acts. It was thought that we might profitably pursue the same section of the subject tonight, and see how discipline occasions spoil for the Lord in those who, as disciplined, are restored to God. We had the thought of discipline before us in Acts 5, but in that case those who were disciplined were not restored; the spoil came about through the effect produced on the saints and on the multitude. Now it is thought that we might get help through considering the spoil that accrues to the Lord in persons who have been restored through discipline.
The verses which we have read in 1 Corinthians furnish us with the best example that we have of assembly discipline. It included the spirit of the apostle and “the power of our Lord Jesus Christ”, but the actual administration of discipline was in the hands of the assembly at Corinth. The person who was the subject of the discipline is clearly marked off as wicked, being called such by the apostle. In a sense it is not merely a local matter, for the apostle’s spirit was bound up in it and also the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is distinctly an assembly matter, however, the saints being viewed as gathered together, as it says, “ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ”, (verse 4). No such matter can be merely local; it carries with it in principle the assembly as [p. 411] a whole.
AFM In what way does the spirit of the apostle Paul come into this action? Is it a special thing?
JT I think so. There is a purpose in its being mentioned; not merely because it is his spirit. I suppose it conveys the kind of spirit that runs through the two epistles; but then the idea of the body — an organism — would also enter into it, I think.
Ques Would the spirit of the apostle be replaced today by the spirits of the saints who feel with God in a universal way in regard to matters that may be taking place in other localities?
JT I think that is how it would work out. Those who would act for Christ in a matter in their locality would have the universal thought in mind, too. We are to keep the unity of the Holy Spirit. The spirits of persons who would act against evil in their localities would be rightly in mind here, I think. We have come to “the spirits of just men made perfect”, Hebrews 12: 23. It is no matter of what men call spiritism, but the wonderful organism of the assembly, carrying all that is of God into a local action.
Ques Does the word “spirits” in Hebrews 12 involve the thought of intelligence? I was wondering, for instance, why our scripture does not say Paul would be present in soul.
JT I think the spirit is the most exalted part of man. It is first mentioned — i.e., “spirit, and soul, and body”. It would be that part of man by which he has a conscious link with God. I think the apostle’s spirit would pervade both epistles — the first epistle, particularly; it would be Paul’s spirit in the sense of judging evil.
CAM Would you say that the evil at Corinth was allowed to become universally reported, because God intended all saints to be affected by what He was doing in that local [p. 412] company?
JT It would so appear. We cannot always act on mere reports, but the way this is mentioned would indicate that the report had rightly been accepted as true, and would affect the spirits of all who would act for God; so surely the divine organism here implies that the spirits of the saints are to be carried. We have come to the spirits of just men; a most important thing in a world of evil. It is not spiritism, but an organism that is of God.
PL It says of Achan that “all Israel stoned him with stones”, Joshua 7: 25. Does that illustrate it?
JT I think it does.
PL When Joshua is selected to lead the people. Moses asks “the God of the spirits of all flesh” to “set a man over the assembly, who may go out before them”, Numbers 27: 16. The appointment of Joshua suggests, in a typical way, that the saints would now take on the features of a spiritual organism, do you not think?
JT Yes. These epistles bring that out particularly. The apostle says, “So that death works in us, but life in you” (2 Corinthians 4: 12), and “if one member suffer, all the members suffer with it”, 1 Corinthians 12: 26. It is a subtle thought, but nevertheless a reality, involving the organism of the one body.
ANW Was the action of the assembly as together, and delivering the man to Satan, apart from the apostolic spirit?
JT I think the apostolic spirit entered into that, but the assembly had remarkable powers. Our Lord said, “If also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer”, Matthew 18: 17. It would show that the assembly’s word was final as representative of Christ here.
AR What is done in a locality is sometimes questioned; whereas here, it is in the name of our [p. 413] Lord Jesus Christ and with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ. That would give it assembly status.
JT Quite so; and the apostolic spirit, whatever it might be today, would be authoritative in dealing with evil. The Lord says, “It is as a man gone out of the country, having ... given to his bondmen the authority”, Mark 13: 34. The bondman spirit enters into these matters so that there is authority here. In every righteous man there is moral authority to deal with evil.
Ques In contradistinction to Corinth, is assembly conscience lacking in Pergamos, where the same evil was prevalent? It says, “I have a few things against thee: that thou hast there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to cast a snare before the sons of Israel, to eat of idol sacrifices and commit fornication”, Revelation 2: 14.
JT I think that is good, and it brings up the question of the final part of our subject tonight, how the disciplinary or judicial attitude of Christ in the assembly as depicted in Revelation 3 culminates in a result in the way of spoil in Philadelphia. What was lost in Pergamos and Thyatira has been reached in a moral way by the extrication of the saints, so that there is a judgment of evil.
PL What is done in government, one would trust, may finally, as in this case in Corinth, be used in grace as spoil.
JT That is what I think we may come to in the second letter. It is a beautiful thought. A man was in danger of being swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. The work of God in the man went faster than the sympathies of the saints. The saints had not kept pace with God in the matter, but they are helped by the epistle and the man is delivered.
PL Like the servants in Luke 15, they were to follow hard after the heart of the father, who ran — do you [p. 414] think?
JT I think that is what we might gather. The Corinthians were not travelling fast enough. They were not keeping pace with the work of God.
GL Is it right to pray collectively for a man who has been withdrawn from, during the time he is not in fellowship?
JT It is a question of spirituality. John says, “There is a sin to death: I do not say of that that he should make a request”, 1 John 5: 16. It is a question of spiritual discernment, whether the matter is judicial; not confined entirely to assembly discipline, but it may be discipline of the Lord directly. “On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep”, 1 Corinthians 11: 30. We have to be sure about that. It requires spiritual discernment, but generally speaking, I would say, that it is right to pray for those under discipline.
PL Do you not think Paul and Chloe would pray for this man?
JT I would think so. Paul in the first epistle was exercised about the man’s spirit that it might be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus, but the recovery evidently took place before.
PL Had it awaited that day, would it be quite spoil? Is not the spoil connected with the harvest of recovering grace here, and therefore available in the assembly now to the praise and glory of God, and blessing for all concerned?
JT I think that is right. Luke 15 represents christianity; I suppose the way we are actuated by grace. The father ran to meet the prodigal. The Corinthians were not moving with God in what He was doing in the man.
AR Do you think that we can truly pray for the recovery of any who are put away if our spirits are not in sympathy with God and His feelings towards the [p. 415] assembly?
JT That is good. We must travel that way with every right action. We are to travel with God.
Ques Can our spirits really be in the action as the apostle’s spirit was here, unless we apprehend the seriousness of the thing, and the judgment of God relating to it?
JT I think that is right. Paul travelled with God; He had a judgment of the matter before, we may be sure, but he went deeper than mere rumour; the report that went abroad was evidently accepted as true, and was taken up by those who were foremost in the spirit of judgment in the assembly. Paul travelled with it. It is a question of travelling in spirit in the way of righteousness.
AFM Was the man’s spirit saved before the day of the Lord Jesus through his recovery in the second epistle?
JT Manifestly. In the apostle’s judgment, he was already saved. They were exhorted to receive him, and confirm their love to him.
AFM His self-judgment had effected his salvation in that respect?
JT Quite so. Every provision of the divine system begins to operate as sin takes place. It is a most interesting matter to trace the working out of the modus operandi of recovery. We are told, in John’s epistle, “if any one sin, we have a patron with the Father” 1 John 2: 1. We have Him; that is, the sinner has Him, and the saints have Him. All are affected by the sin. “We have a patron” up there in regard to this matter, but we must operate with Him here below.
JS Just how is spoil acquired as a result of this action at Corinth?
JT I thought we might profitably see the way spoil is reached through the modus operandi that God has provided, which implies that we are all brought into this. We have a Patron; not merely [p. 416] does the man who sinned have one; it is an assembly sorrow, but the assembly has this wonderful provision above, with the Father; so that the dispensation is not permanently affected by the sin. The Patron above means One who takes care of the whole matter there. It does not say “with God”, but “with the Father”, and the Patron is “Jesus Christ the righteous”. So it is a question of righteousness in the most absolute way. He is not going to pass over anything, but nevertheless he is on the side of the sinner and those who are with the sinner in responsibility, because it is our matter — “we have a patron”; our prayers are based on that; there is also a provision down here; the Spirit is the Advocate here (”Comforter”, in John 14, is the same word), and He makes intercession for the saints also, according to God, showing that everything must move on those lines. The most righteous spirit on earth, I suppose, was Paul’s. He was in this matter, and others, too. That is how we should move together. What an organism the assembly is! We are all brought into the matter in spirit. So we move with God, because God is the first to begin to move. It is a great thing, in all matters of discipline, that we move with God. We have a Patron, who is on our side, to look after the matter above, and the Spirit is here, and all righteous spirits are in the matter.
GL Was the weeping on the part of the tribes in the end of Judges connected with the restoration of Benjamin? They had no power to reach him until they wept.
JT That is very good; that is, all were brought into it. As has been remarked of Achan, all Israel stoned him with stones; all the righteous spirits would enter into that, which of course includes all [p. 417] the assembly.
ABP Would the thing be seen set forth objectively in the Lord Jesus going into the waters of baptism at Jordan? “For thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness”, Matthew 3: 15.
JT I thought of that in connection with the expression that He is the Righteous; Jesus Christ, the Righteous. The article implies that the whole thought is there in that Person, so that nothing will be passed over. Some may think they are more gracious than others, but nothing will be passed over by the Righteous.
PL So that we have the foreshadowing in the baptismal scene referred to, and then the Lord in John 2, as coming into the temple and making a scourge of cords, says, “Take these things hence; make not my Father’s house a house of merchandise”. He takes over the whole matter. “And his disciples remembered that it is written, The zeal of thy house devours me”. Is not that seen in Paul? The zeal of God’s house was there, so that what the Lord is now undertaking above, the disciples take on as under Him here below.
JT Very good. I think it is of great help if we get an apprehension in our souls of the workings of this organism. It acts through love, as at the Lord’s supper, but in discipline it is a question of righteous spirits. Paul’s spirit would be an authoritative and righteous spirit, and every such spirit is in an action like this. So we are to travel with God in the thing, but we must not travel too slowly nor too fast. The Corinthians were travelling too slowly to be with God in the matter. The apostle has to urge them to confirm their love to the man, for God had already wrought in him.
JTJr Would the leaven in chapter 5 indicate what hindered movement with God?
JT I think that is right. It would mean that there was something working in the [p. 418] company.
JTJr Would it not work both ways in their slowness in dealing with evil as well as in recognising the recovery of the man? There was evidently something there that hindered them from receiving him back. It would possibly be leaven of another kind.
JT Well, it would be slothfulness, which would be akin to will.
CAM Would the nature of the sin be so very solemn because it involves the temple condition of things? God will not allow any corruption in that.
JT Yes. It would defile the temple, of course; the lower feelings and affections of the saints would be drawn into and affected by such a thing as this. It is an incestuous thing. The corrupting of the temple in chapter 3, however, would be more mental, such as bringing in bad doctrine.
CAM So that this would involve the body idea, more so than the temple?
JT It would; so the word lump is used — “that ye may be a new lump” 1 Corinthians 5: 7. It is not so much the temple idea, as lump. It contemplates us as together, but the leaven is nullified. “Purge out the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump”. That is, the saints are to be freed from the sins that would corrupt in their natural relations. It relates to the lower affections more than to the idea of bad doctrine; chapter 3: 17 is corruption, and the word there is, “If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy”. But this is leaven of another kind that would damage us as a lump.
ANW That is evidently why he says, “Remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves”, (chapter 5: 13).
JT “From amongst yourselves”. How that would affect every bit of table talk about this matter! Table talk is dangerous unless it is pure. The [p. 419] lightest things are said sometimes, and this thing would possibly be bandied about among the saints at Corinth and be most destructive, in the way of leaven, for the lightest kind of feelings are often brought into our conversations.
Ques Will you explain the use of the word “wickedness” in relation to discipline cases? Are there gradations of sin, or would you use the word “wickedness” in relation to every discipline case?
JT I think I should. The action of will, according to 1 Samuel 15: 23, is “as iniquity and idolatry”. In the minds of many it would pass, perhaps, as not so bad, but it is evil. An action of will against God, or against the principles of the assembly, is repulsive to God and is wickedness.
RWS Why does not Paul bring up this matter earlier in the epistle? He brings up the party spirit first.
JT I suppose the schisms that were there were more serious. The parties, no doubt, opened the door for this kind of thing. Where partisan conditions exist, it is next to impossible to deal with evil. A man is shielded because he is of a certain party. That, I am sure, hindered the spirit of discipline at Corinth.
ABP Would you say that the apostle brings forward this relatively clear case to get the brethren in Corinth judicially minded, so that they might be able to take up matters that were more serious later on?
JT It was the kind of case that natural conscience would take notice of: “such fornication as is not even among the nations”. It could be conveniently brought up to set the judicial minds of the saints in action. The spirits of all just men begin to move when something like this is brought to their attention.
[p. 420] Ques Do you not think that if we were more often together in assembly, we should become more judicially minded?
JT I am sure that is so. Especially at the care meetings, where these matters are brought up, do we become judicially minded. It is most important to have a judicial mind in the things of God.
GMacP Have we the mind of Christ in the spirit of judgment in connection with assembly evil?
JT I think we should have, as partaking of the spirit of Christ.
AR You were speaking about moving with God in Luke 15; when the prodigal said he had sinned against heaven and in his father’s sight, the father tells his bondmen to bring out the best robe. I suppose in that way the apostle would bring all the saints at Corinth into the thing now.
JT That is the idea; bringing all the saints into it, so that they should be a new lump. The lump would refer to the aggregate of the saints in their social and everyday relation, when they would talk about matters together. They were leavened. This thing would defile the body of the saints, so the leaven would be actually working. Their conversations about it would create evil conditions rather than holiness. That is a great test as to our conversation.
Ques What is meant by delivering one to Satan?
JT I suppose it would imply the removal of all that would be a protection to him as amongst the saints. We are protected from Satan in the kingdom. God has provided protection for His people in the circle of fellowship. This would be removed, I should say, so that he would be handed over to Satan. The Lord said to Simon, “Behold, Satan has demanded to have you, to sift you as wheat; but I have besought for thee that thy faith fail not”. Luke 22: 31, 32. It would look as if the way were [p. 421] opened for Satan to get him, as we know he did, but the Lord prayed that his faith should not fail. I think Peter is an example of that.
PL Does this all emphasise the comprehensive character of these disciplinary operations which have their spring in the holy nature of God; the purity of His throne. Even such an one as Satan has to play his part as an instrument of God? Does that not emphasise the gravity of discipline in the mind of God and rebuke with us any indifference or insensibility to any case that may be on hand?
JT That God should employ Satan in discipline is very solemn; that one should be handed over to Satan — being denied the ordinary protection that the kingdom affords — is indeed solemn. It is only in a limited way, I apprehend, that Satan is allowed to act. The book of Job helps as to this. God limited him. At another time, Satan moved David to number the people. God ordered that — a most solemn thing.
JS Have we not the responsibility of government in the assembly; whereas Satan would have a freer hand outside?
JT Quite so.
PL Would the apostle’s fear of despair in the man, in the second epistle, suggest the enemy’s attempt to go beyond what God allowed; the saints were in grace to nullify such an attempt?
JT The saints would rally round him. They would again afford protection for him, under God. So that salvation lies in the assembly in that sense. The Advocate would set in action on high what is needed, and of course what is of God here is to be in perfect consonance with that, inclusive of the assembly today, but the assembly at Corinth was lagging behind. It was not moving with God in the matter. They needed to be exhorted to come in [p. 422] at once and stand between the enemy and this man, now that he has been restored.
Rem Paul knew the thoughts with which Satan would occupy this man’s mind. The enemy would be seeking to bring confusion into the assembly, so that the man should not be recovered.
JT So the apostle says, “For to this end also I have written, that I might know, by putting you to the test, if as to everything ye are obedient. But to whom ye forgive anything, I also”, 2 Corinthians 2: 9, 10. In the forgiveness he is prepared to act with them, but he wants them to act. God had acted already. It is a very practical instruction for us as it was for the Corinthians; they were to be moving with God, and the apostle, as it were, says, I am in the movement with you. He is letting them do the forgiving, and whatever they forgive, he says, “I also”, and then he goes on to say, “If I have forgiven anything, it is for your sakes in the person of Christ”. The place of forgiveness is a very elevated position. It is in the Person of Christ. You may be sure Satan worked hard to rob Christ of this man. Satan would carry him off as spoil from Christ, but now he is coming back as assembly spoil in this remarkable way through this wonderful spiritual operation. It is not in any party way, but in the Person of Christ, that Satan might not get an advantage against us. Satan will contend for this man, and for anyone who sins, whereas the apostle discerns that he is to be recovered as spoil. The man is to be brought back on these lines. Heaven delights in this procedure and the saints are brought into it, so that they are working with God in the matter. This man is carried in triumph; rescued from Satan. The saints come round him and reinstate him in the assembly.
JS Do we see how the apostle is moving in accordance with the mind of heaven in his readiness to [p. 423] forgive?
JT What can be more assuring than forgiveness in the Person of Christ?
CAM In meeting these thoughts of Satan, such a mighty being, the apostle does not act like a judge alone; he needed the assembly with him in it.
JT That is what I thought we might see in the second letter; how he labours to get them with him, and in that sense, to be with God in the matter.
JS Do we see certain restrictions put on Satan? He is to be used for destruction of the flesh in this man, but his spirit would be preserved.
JT That is what is stated in the first epistle; “that the spirit may be saved”. The saints intervened under God. They really support the man’s spirit, because it is apparent that he belongs to the righteous, but they want to get his spirit disentangled and free from Satan.
FNW Would it be, “and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens”, Matthew 16: 19?
JT Well, that is a formal action. This is more practical; the saints are surrounding him, as it were, with their love; standing between him and Satan, because his spirit has been damaged under the influence of Satan.
PL Our prayers and attitude are to be governed by the movements of the Advocate, so that we are in keeping with the mind of heaven and promoting the divine objective. There is folly in lagging behind those movements in heaven, as well as presumption in going before.
JT Quite so.
Ques Does it call for priestly discernment to detect when the sin [p. 424] is judged?
JT Quite so. If the brother is sitting down amongst us, happily, there is evidence that he is now for God, and for Christ, maybe more than ever he was before.
AR The apostle exhorts the Corinthians to “assure him of your love”. He does not say my love; why is that?
JT They could not assure him of Paul’s love, except by word of mouth, but this is more than that. They would, as it were, come in between him and Satan. He would be ready for the assembly now.
ANW Does not the very idea of destruction of the flesh involve that the man is to be saved? This man is not to be destroyed, as in chapter 3, where the corrupter is destroyed. Here it is for the destruction of the flesh, because the man is to be saved.
JT That is a good distinction. “If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy” (1 Corinthians 3: 17). The man is destroyed; terrible thought! But here the man is saved.
PL 2 Chronicles is distinguished from 2 Kings in regard to Manasseh’s recovery in the features of which we are speaking. He was taken, bound with double chains of brass, and carried away to Babylon; “and when he was in affliction, he besought Jehovah his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers, and prayed to him. And he was intreated of him and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that Jehovah, he was God. And after this he built the outer wall of the city of David”, 2 Chronicles 33: 12 - 14. At Corinth the whole system of grace has operated and the man is now more energetic in the defence of Jerusalem than he ever could have been before. He, too, would build the outer wall.
JT He is thoroughly in [p. 425] fellowship now.
RWS How would this man be greeted? Would the brethren shake hands with him while he was under discipline?
JT It is a question of discerning whether he is a repenting sinner. The advocacy of Christ is to bring about a state of repentance. The prodigal said, “I have sinned against heaven and before thee”, Luke 15: 21. There seems to be no ground for expressing affection or fellowship aside from a repenting condition. The fact that people who are under discipline come to the meeting does not in itself prove that there is a repentant state. It is not simply that I have repented at a particular time, but that the repenting attitude is maintained.
PL Would the discernment as to the cleansing or healing of the leper be left to the priestly lead in the assembly, and not to persons who assume to be kinder than the assembly at times, and seem anxious to show it?
JT Indeed; that brings up the question of the modus operandi. The first part is delivering such a one to Satan; Satan is called into service. What a terrible thing it is to be put into the hands of the devil by God and by the assembly; to be where protection is withdrawn from one, and Satan allowed to have his way. There are limitations, however, as the book of Job makes clear. But then, that part of the modus operandi is effective; for repentance comes in, and then the saints begin to act; they discern that God is getting His place again. “I have sinned against heaven and before thee”, the prodigal said. A truly repentant soul today would say, Against the assembly and against Thee. The assembly must be brought into it.
So the second epistle to Corinth brings out the beautiful spirit thrown around the repentant sinner. He is sorrowful, and had not the saints come in. Satan would have swallowed him up with overmuch [p. 426] sorrow. In the modus operandi Satan is now displaced by the saints. He had been used as an instrument for the destruction of the flesh, but when repentance has been effected the saints are called in to surround him with restoring love.
JTJr Is that why the thought of obedience is introduced in verse 9 — the apostle says, “if as to everything ye are obedient”, 2 Corinthians 2: 9?
JT The thing is, Are we ready to be part of the divine system, to step in where Satan has been operating? The saints are now brought in to surround the repentant one and shut out Satan’s influence.
CH Do you get an example of this in Joshua in Zechariah 3? He was attired in filthy garments, but then the angel spoke and said, “Take away the filthy garments from off him” (verse 4).
JT Very good; he was then attired in festival robes. The chapter goes on to show that he was to be given a place among those that stand by.
JS The fact that the Corinthians are exhorted to show their love to the man would indicate that they had been standing aloof, having no intercourse at all, until repentance had become manifest.
JT We are told in chapter 5: 11: “with such an one not even to eat”. A list is given of persons that we are not to come near to at all, but the time comes when the priest sees that a change has come about, and they step in around the man to protect him from the attack of the devil, and so relieve the repenting sinner.
Ques Would you say the normal working out of this should follow some indications in the person under discipline, that true repentance has been brought about?
JT The law governing it is Leviticus 13 and 14; visiting him and seeing if there is any work of God going on in him. In that way we are to travel with [p. 427] God in priestly discernment to recognise the work of God when it becomes manifest.
PL Did all this arise in an initial way, in what we may call the first case of discipline in Scripture? In God’s own governmental dealings with our fallen parents, he alludes to the “enmity between ... thy seed and her seed; he shall crush thy head, and thou shalt crush his heel”, Genesis 3: 15. Is that set out in the Lord personally, but now in principle carried on, in another victory over Satan? Satan is seen under the feet of the saints at Corinth, who are now rescuing from the strong man, a bit of spoil for Christ.
JT I think that is good. It is a real rescue of the man from Satan. David said he had rescued the lamb from the lion’s mouth. It was the triumph of a real exploit. That is how it works out, love comes in; “assure him of your love”. It is Corinthian love. No doubt the man had known it before he came under the defilement of sin. Now the saints were to let that love be known in his soul again. It replaces the devil’s influence, under which he had been disciplined.
Rem The Lord’s own words as to the strong man seem to fit here: “when the stronger than he coming upon him overcomes him, he takes away his panoply in which he trusted, and he will divide the spoil he has taken from him”, Luke 11: 22.
JT This man had been led captive by the devil; indeed, handed over to him, and now the saints are coming in to rescue him from that influence.
CH Paul embraced Eutychus, and in the same way the saints might act towards this man now.
JT Yes; it is the same principle, although Eutychus was not under discipline. The apostle embraced him, discerning that his life was in him. It was a priestly [p. 428] matter.
PL The apostle goes on to say in 2 Corinthians 2: 14, “Thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ”; and then he speaks of the sweet odour. The scene is changed, now that the man is restored, and you get the sweet odour introduced.
JT What fragrance there would be as this matter was taken up in assembly! — as the man was considered, and the character of his sin; how he was judicially given over to the devil; now he is reinstated amongst the saints and bearing every evidence that God has restored him. What a triumph it is! What an assembly meeting it would be; what a triumph in the rescue of the man! We read in Amos: “as the shepherd rescueth out of the jaw of the lion two legs, or a piece of an ear; so shall the children of Israel be rescued” (chapter 3: 12). Here we see the whole man brought back, spirit, soul, and body, and set up again in the assembly — a very great triumph for Christ!
CAM The assembly in its judicial character is greater than all Satan’s might, so rightly he should be under the feet of the saints.
JT God is exposing him. Satan is not to have “an advantage against us, for we are not ignorant of his thoughts”, 2 Corinthians 2: 11.
Rem In the first epistle to the Corinthians, judicial action is necessary to maintain the holiness and righteousness of God’s throne, whereas in the second epistle, the apostle seems to stress recovery as connected with the Father’s love and grace.
JT Exactly; the minister is seeking in all this to carry the brethren along with him. The two epistles are to set the saints in movement, judicially first, and then in restoring love. Adjustment is brought in, and the exercise of love is the great triumph; the great spoil. Corinth would be greater spiritually after this experience than it [p. 429] was before.
WEK Is the spoil you speak of seen in the second epistle?
JT I think that is the thought. The man is worthy of having the saints express their love to him, as it says, “assure him of your love” (chapter 2: 8).
WB-w The first thing the priest would look for in the man would be real sorrow. Would that be indicated in some movement toward the saints?
JT I think so. He is a repentant sinner; he would continue in that attitude.
CH The restoration of this man would seem to correspond with Leviticus 14, where certain things had to be done to the leper that was cleansed. There would be a distinct change in the man, for in addition to other things, he was anointed on the head with oil.
JT That is educational as showing the process by which he is set up again among his brethren. It is a real triumph, for he is now an undefiled man, ready to be taken up again by God in His service.
JS Is judicial action necessary to make way for the operations of grace?
JT I think that is right. It is a most important thing. Speaking illustratively, the judicial department amongst us makes way for the action of the Spirit. The prophetic writings are full of it. It makes room for free action of the Spirit, and now, with this man set up in the love of the saints, what a triumphant meeting it would be! — God was so leading them in triumph that Satan was defeated.
GL Could we pray for famine like Elijah, and still be in accordance with the dispensation of grace?
JT We must bear in mind the dispensation in which he lived. James tells us that he prayed again, and the “again” would suggest the grace side. The famine was intended to make room for grace, and [p. 430] so discipline is needed to make room for grace to those who sin.
FC Would the renewed attitude of the brethren towards the one who had sinned make room for the spoil?
JT Quite so.
PL Would the fact that Titus (a man not given to human sentiment, but a ruler and prince in Israel) brought this report, give confidence to Paul as to the genuineness of the man’s repentance? One feels the urgent call where repentance is said to be appearing, for the scrutiny of a Titus, a true prince.
JT It says in chapter 7, “But he who encourages those who are brought low, even God, encouraged us by the coming of Titus; and not by his coming only, but also through the encouragement with which he was encouraged as to you; relating to us your ardent desire, your mourning, your zeal for me; so that I the more rejoiced” (verse 6); and also “I rejoice that in everything I am confident as to you” (verse 16). What spoil there is in that! What a time for heaven this was; not only in the man, but a wave of repentance pervaded the whole assembly, and heaven rejoiced, as it says, “There is joy before the angels of God for one repenting sinner”, Luke 5: 10.
RWS Did the apostle postpone his visit in view of those mentioned in 2 Corinthians 12: 21, so that there might be more spoil for David by their repentance?
JT Exactly. There were those who had not been moved yet; but the emotions of the brethren generally had been affected, and there was a wave of repentance. The reflection of heaven has been seen in the joy of Titus. He is a prince; not only an elder, but one who can appoint elders. It requires a superior man to do that, and being such he is [p. 431] affected by what is going on at Corinth, and reflects heaven’s feelings in regard to it.
CH The apostle wrote to the assembly in Philemon’s house as well as to Philemon himself, in connection with the recovery of Onesimus, saying, “He has been separated from thee for a time, that thou mightest possess him fully for ever”, Philemon 15. His restoration to Philemon would be assembly spoil, would it not?
JT That is a good illustration of what is before us.
WB-w Does the whole meeting take on the sin?
JT That is the point for us to see in all these matters; we are to travel with God in them. As feeling things and being truly repentant, love finds scope amongst us.
JTJr David’s repentance in connection with his own individual sin, and then later in numbering the people, yielded great results in his apprehension of sonship and the house of God.
JT That is apropos to what we are saying. God accepted him on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite, where the sword was sheathed. David said, This is the house of God. He reached it through the exercise resulting from his failure and the grace of God which restored him. He did not say, This is the foundation of the house of God, but This is the house of God. It is where God is.
JS Is this spirit of repentance manifested in 2 Corinthians 7, set over against the inflation in the first epistle?
JT I think so. They have become a new lump now; not only was the man repentant, but the saints were too. If they talked about this matter, they would not corrupt one another now. They would be holy in their conversation.
AR Is that why the Lord has been calling our attention to the new covenant? Are we to be [p. 432] drawn together in love, so that the love of God may permeate us?
JT I am sure there is no scope for love to operate amongst us except we are in self-judgment.
JS The spirit of self-judgment is very little understood and acted upon.
WB-w Will you tell us something about the joy of Titus referred to in chapter 7?
JT I think we should bear in mind who Titus was, for he was a man that appointed elders. He must have been a superior man, to be able to represent heaven in providing elders for the saints. The recovery at Corinth would be a real occasion for a man like that to be exuberant. There was cause for his joy. He was a well-balanced man with a judicial mind, and would not be exuberant without a cause for it.
CH It was after there were signs of healing in the leper that the priest was to take the sin-offering. Would that suggest that when there is movement in recovery there is more need than ever for the priestly eating of the sin-offering in the holy place?
JT Just so. And then the skilfulness of love is seen in all that follows; the washing of his garments, the shaving, the bathing; abiding outside of his tent for a given period, and, finally, the dignity of the anointing and the sacrifice. The hands of the priest are brought into it to show the spiritual detail involved in the recovery and the tender way in which the whole matter is done, so that the man is set up according to God, and ready for part in the testimony again.
AR Does the scripture we read in Revelation 3, with respect to Philadelphia, fit in with what you are saying? It is the place of brotherly love.
JT It is a beautiful culmination of the Lord’s judicial service as walking amongst the golden candlesticks. He goes down the line of testimony [p. 433] from Ephesus to the end. In Philadelphia we see the assembly in a new phase. The Lord says to her, “Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee”, Revelation 3: 9. It seems to be a beautiful phase of the assembly in the last days.
PL Has there not been assembly repentance, and therefore assembly forgiveness, and hence the spoil of Philadelphia?
JT I think so. It is like John 20: 23, “Whosesoever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”. That is really what brings about Philadelphian conditions. It is the spirit of forgiveness. The saints take one another up abstractly according to the mind of God and love each other from that point of view as brethren. That is how the matter works out. Philadelphian conditions are reached on the lines of remitting sins. Heaven goes along with us on those lines.
Ques Would it be right to say that in the address to Philadelphia, the Lord’s paps are not girded? He says, “I have loved thee”. He ungirds Himself, as it were.
JT That is the spirit of it; it is Christ, the Head of the assembly, talking to her.
WB-w Titus would be a good Philadelphian brother. The apostle wrote, “His affections are more abundantly towards you”. He would be Philadelphian in principle.
JT Quite; the part he and Timothy played in Corinth opens up a very interesting subject. They were both men that appointed elders under Paul. They must have been well balanced, and they are both brought into the matter in Corinth. It is most interesting to compare them. Timothy was evidently a direct representative of Paul, for he says, “I have [p. 434] sent to you Timotheus, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in mind of my ways as they are in Christ”, 1 Corinthians 4: 17. He was a true child of Paul. Titus would be that too, but would represent the idea of balance, as being a man able to cope with the things which are brought into the second letter.
PL We have, “Whether as regards Titus, he is my companion and fellow-labourer in your behalf”, 2 Corinthians 8: 23. Would that link up with Paul’s spirit in the first epistle?
JT I think so. He is referred to in a very dignified way as Paul’s companion and equal; labouring in the same way.
Ques Is the kind of sin that is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 5 local in its bearing, speaking generally, whereas ecclesiastical sin would be a voice to the saints universally?
JT An ecclesiastical sin is apt to be more universal and more difficult to discern, too. The Galatian error, which was doctrinal, was called leaven, as was also the sin at Corinth.
PL Achan’s sin involved a searching out of all the tribes of Israel. The sin at Baal-Peor was settled quickly with the javelin. A sin which offends the natural conscience is much sooner dealt with than the iniquity of 2 Timothy, which is really the introduction of human will into divine things.
JT Although Baal-Peor was settled immediately in principle by the act of Phinehas, all the tribes had had been involved in it. Twenty-four thousand died in the plague.
AR Do you mean that ecclesiastical error may spread further and be more difficult to deal with than the sin which was dealt with at Corinth?
JT It is more likely to; it is more difficult to judge. The apostle appears to be much more concerned about it.
[p. 435] Rem John speaks about not receiving into the house certain ones, as if one who has false doctrine would be more likely to injure you than the man who sinned at Corinth.
JT “If any one corrupt the temple of God, him shall God destroy”, 1 Corinthians 3: 17. The corrupter is not delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh; he is destroyed. He is definitely a wicked man.