SPOIL (11)
SPOIL (11)
JTJr At our last reading we considered the thought of “the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem”, Revelation 3: 12, which links on with our chapter tonight. In the scripture read we see the city “coming down out of the heaven from God”. Earlier in the book there are suggestions of spoil which would no doubt culminate in the city as seen in our chapter; for example, in chapter 4 there is the thought of experience in the twenty-four elders, and life in the four living creatures; then kingship and priesthood in chapter 5, bondmen in chapter 7, and the service of song in chapter 14; so that all these features would enter into what the city contains, or represents, as seen in chapter 21. The great thought of enrichment through recovery is what is before us in the thought of spoil. God has in mind to bring about in this day the recovery, in some way, of everything that was set up in the beginning. The intervening chapters referred to would represent the features that have been recovered to us, and which are so needed in our meetings, if there is to be a concrete expression of the assembly in a city.
JS How are you viewing chapter 21?
JTJr That the spoil from the recovery is seen in the city as coming down, embodying the features of Christ, as set forth in Him here.
ANW Does not the very breakdown disclosed in chapters 2 and 3 emphasise the spoil more gloriously in the end? Failure came in, but the city is seen coming down having the glory of God in spite of what failure had brought in.
Rem There is spoil as the outcome of the ways of God here, but the city as seen in chapter 21 comes out of heaven, which is a [p. 450] further thought.
JTJr John sees it as “coming down”, but it had previously gone up, and he had himself been called up to heaven, as it says, “Come up here”, Revelation 4: 1. He sees it from that view-point.
Rem So that administrative actions in our economy are to emanate from the heavenly city.
CAM The overcomer in Philadelphia is one who really knows something of the heavenly city and what is new, does he not?
JTJr The overcomer, in that way, would stand out in our day. Failure is acknowledged, which is important, but as we overcome, we are brought into the light of the assembly in this glorious character as coming down out of heaven from God. We have all had our part in the failure, but the great thought of God is that there should be spoil in recovery to His original thoughts.
WR You referred to chapter 5, which reads, “Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open its seals; because thou hast been slain, and hast redeemed to God, by thy blood, out of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth” (verses 9, 10). Do you see the thought of spoil there?
JTJr You get the thought of kings and priests reigning, introduced there. I suppose that as Christ becomes worthy to us we take on these features. They say, “Thou art worthy”. One feature of the great recovery in our day is the truth of the greatness of the Lord’s Person; the understanding, in our souls, of the Lord in His redemptive rights over us; He is worthy to us, and we value in our souls the greatness of His Person. In that way we become fitted to have part in the city in the features of kingship and priesthood.
ABP Would that be worked out in experience down here? It was mentioned that the city comes [p. 451] out in heavenly character, but what comes out must go in first, must it not?
JTJr Yes; I think that is the way it stands. What has been wrought out here; that has taken root downward, as it says, “And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall again take root downward, and bear fruit upward” (Isaiah 37: 31); that is, we have had part in the testimony as having taken root downward in self-judgment, and in recognition of the Spirit, so that what comes out in the second part of our subject in chapter 21 is movement in the Spirit’s power. John is carried in spirit to a great and high mountain, which shows us how God brings us into the realm of His operations as we are available to Him. The living creatures and elders indicate how the truth is expressed in the assembly in a vital and experienced way. We are made to reign and to be priests to God as the fruit of the redemptive work of Christ, as seen in chapter 5. Then in chapter 7 the thought of bondmen is introduced; the bondmen are sealed, that is, they are marked off as bound over to Christ. That is another great feature that has been recovered in our day, so that we are not our own, we are bought with a price, we are bound over to Christ as His bondmen, and are sealed. Then in chapter 14 we have the service of song which really links on with David’s ministry and would suggest the recovery of song to God in the assembly.
Rem I suppose the living creatures in the midst of the throne would suggest that there is to be the expression of life in administration, and then the thought of experience would come into it also as indicated in the twenty-four elders. In that way, there is a link between what will come out in the city in its future administration and what has been committed to us in responsibility here. In the parables of the talents and the minas in Matthew 25 [p. 452] and Luke 19, the bondmen are given the Lord’s substance, in responsibility, as if to see what they would do with it in adverse circumstances, to qualify them for city administration. As taking on local responsibility here we qualify for our place in the city.
ANW The first reference to the city, in Revelation 21, is in connection with God tabernacling with men, whereas the second is rather in relation to the kingdom; it is reigning, rather than dwelling.
Rem In the first reference it is really seen as derived morally from Christ, not exactly as related to past history; it is new Jerusalem and is a greater thought than what follows.
AR In relation to a new heaven and a new earth. “And he that sat on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new” (verse 5). The assembly is to be the companion of Christ in relation to an entirely new system which is eternal, not now in an administrative setting as in the latter part of the chapter, but what she is peculiarly for the eye of Christ. Is not that really the greatest spoil that we can think of — what is for Christ Himself?
CAM It throws lustre on the entire chapter. What is new is so strongly emphasised and is lit up with the light of eternity.
ANW While less is said, far more is involved in the bride adorned for her husband, than in the administrative aspect of the city.
Rem What is new, as developed in Colossians 3: 10, should have its influence upon what is done in an administrative way in wilderness circumstances? It is noticeable, for instance, that the spies in responsibility, at the end of the wilderness journey, link on with Rahab, who is indigenous to the land. What is new is really controlling the movements of those taking up responsibility relative to the people of God, before they reach heaven actually.
[p. 453] The same is seen in the stones which were set up at the Jordan; there is a link between the twelve men and the stones which did not come out of the wilderness. Should there not be a link between what is new, as out of Christ, and our responsible position here in city character?
JTJr I think that corresponds with the early chapters of Revelation where the living creatures and the elders are referred to. There is a correspondence in them to the bride, for the Lord becomes worthy to them, as seen in chapters 4 and 5. He is worthy in chapter 4 as recognised in His creative rights; and in chapter 5 His redemptive rights are acknowledged, thus the Lord is acquiring a place in our hearts as worthy.
AR It is apparent that verse 2 suggests what the bride is as being peculiarly for her husband; what she is for the heart of Christ as spoil as the result of His death.
JTJr The features that come to light in the previous chapters bring that out. There is the thought of bondmen in chapter 7: 14; those who are subject, and to whom Christ can deliver of His substance as in Matthew 25: 14, and the authority as in Mark 13: 34, as here in wilderness conditions, so that we are to be the confidants of Christ. Then in chapter 14 the praise of God leads to a fuller response and greater understanding of God. The song of the harp-singers in heaven is learned. I think it all leads on to an understanding of the bride in her relation with Christ, for the thoughts of virginity and following the Lamb are introduced immediately (Revelation 14: 2 - 4).
AC Attention has been drawn to the word new. Would the reference, in the first verse, to the first heaven and the first earth having passed away, suggest the great contrast between that which preceded and that which is brought into [p. 454] view now?
JTJr The sea exists today in the sense that death is on every hand, but in our chapter we are introduced into that in which there is no death. That is emphasised in verse 4, “And he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall not exist any more, ... for the former things have passed away”. We are to have a sense of that now. What the city represents is to be understood today, for it is being worked out experimentally, in the saints. She comes down out of heaven from God in relation to Christ as the Lamb’s wife, and that is really the only relation in which we can rightly take on administration here.
Rem The section from verse 9 on is an important part of the subject in connection with spoil, for the assembly is seen in its millennial glory. She is seen as coming down out of heaven from God, showing what He has effected.
AR The latter part of the chapter is in relation to time; the bearing is manward, administratively. The great crowning thought of spoil seems to be in what God will have eternally for His own heart. “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall tabernacle with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, their God” (verse 3). That is the great final thought of what God is working out in time; what He shall have eternally for Himself.
ABP Wayward man went out from the presence of God and built the first city. Man, in Christ has been recovered to God to dwell with Him eternally, and the holy city comes down out of heaven from God, in its eternal setting. Is this not remarkable spoil?
JS Does not the first verse show a wonderful triumph for God? “And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea exists no more”, Revelation 21: 1.
[p. 455] That, as standing out by itself, is a great moral triumph for God in the final disposition of every moral question caused through sin.
AR And then it says, “And he that sat on the throne said, Behold I make all things new. And he says to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And he said to me, It is done”. Revelation 21: 5, 6. The matter is completed.
Rem Is it not in the Spirit’s mind in Paul’s ministry that the eternal side of things as represented in these first eight verses of chapter 21 should be a present reality to the saints? If we were really to take in, by the Spirit’s power, our position as it is stated in Ephesians 1 and 2, and link that on with this chapter, we would find out how fully the matter works out from this point of view. In Ephesians 1 and 2 we are brought to God according to the great thoughts that He had in His mind from eternity. It is as if the divine mind started with that idea. The twelve stones taken out of Jordan and set up in the land established a link with what had been wrought out by God in the wilderness, and the same principle is seen in the link between Rahab and the spies.
AR It is well to question how much we understand what it is to live in a realm outside of death.
JTJr The Supper introduces us into that sphere; so that we can know now what it is to be where death has no part or place, with our spirits set free to enjoy the great and eternal thoughts of God. I think that we can reach it in the assembly. It is in the assembly that we reach God — “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the ages of ages. Amen”, Ephesians 3: 21.
WFK “So that if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”, 2 Corinthians 5: 17. Would that be experienced [p. 456] in the assembly?
JTJr I suppose the teaching of new creation in its present application has reference to the new order of things, as over against what existed here before. It refers to man set up anew, “So if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation; the old things have passed away; behold all things have become new”, 2 Corinthians 5: 17. The eternal thoughts of God bring in the assembly in its relation to Himself in an entirely new setting.
AC There is great dignity in the way in which the holy city comes down.
JTJr It is a great thought; we should take on the greatness of it, so that we approach every matter in the assembly by coming down! It corresponds with what the Lord said in John 6: “I am the bread which has come down out of heaven” (verse 41). This chapter refers to the assembly as reflecting the spirit of Christ in coming down to meet every situation.
CAM The allusion to John’s gospel helps. There is very little on record with regard to eternity, and I suppose we can hardly understand it unless we apprehend John’s gospel in the aspect of what comes out from God and goes back to God. This first paragraph we have read seems to involve that wonderful cycle, so that “It is done” seems to be parallel with the Lord’s expression in John’s gospel, “It is finished”, John 19: 30.
JTJr I think that helps. John has eternity in view throughout, and the accomplishment of the purposes of God. It has been said, Paul takes us up to heaven and John brings us down.
AR “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us” (John 1: 14), would touch what is eternal, linking on with the thought that “the tabernacle of God is with men”, Revelation 21: 3. One has thought that tabernacle conditions are really love [p. 457] conditions, and that is what we get here. God tabernacling with men in conditions of love.
JAT In verse 2 of this chapter the city is said to be “as a bride adorned for her husband”, but in chapter 19, “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready”.
Rem Historically, the marriage of the Lamb had taken place a thousand years before this first presentation in chapter 21, but the idea of the bride is preserved in the freshness of love for Christ.
AR Would the thought of the bride adorned for her husband be seen in Rebecca? The servant of Abraham gave her articles of silver and gold and clothing, which would have in view her presentation to Isaac, the heavenly man.
JS It is remarkable that at the end of the thousand years the assembly is still seen “as a bride adorned for her husband”.
Rem Rebecca is taken out of a typically heavenly condition of things. The idea of kindred and place enters into her selection. Entering into Sarah’s tent would connect more with the ways of God here; the place Israel had.
JTJr It is well to distinguish, with regard to Genesis 24, that the allusion is to the assembly filling out Israel’s place, which would be seen in the early part of the Acts in the assembly’s position in Jerusalem, whereas the setting at Antioch would be representative of the assembly as in her own place.
Rem “Having the glory of God” would refer to the assembly in her own setting in the world to come. She has that glory; not as a glory transferred from Israel, but as her own.
JTJr It is helpful to see the assembly’s own place as under Paul’s ministry, which begins at Antioch and rises to God’s greatest thoughts as set out in Ephesians.
AR [p. 458] The glory is seen as she comes out in display. Nothing is said about the glory of God in the first section of chapter 21; whereas, in the second, in the day of display, she has “the glory of God”, and “Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone”, (verse 11). First, the glory of God and then her shining, what radiates from her as associated with Christ in display; it is the radiation of the glory of God.
JS Her power of radiation is very remarkable; all the nations shall walk by her light, as she comes down from God, having the glory of God.
Rem The Lord would, on His return, seek for spoil in the way of spiritual substance, too. It is a question of what He has gained through what He has committed to the saints in the way of authority and substance. How have these things been handled — has there really been gain as a result of our use of what has been committed?
JTJr Does not this work out in a practical way in our care meetings? We approach matters there from the viewpoint of the first part of this chapter, as coming out from God. If we understood that more, our vision would be clearer and our judgments would be more quickly arrived at. It is the new Jerusalem in verse 2; not old Jerusalem. Judaism is set aside practically in our souls, and the idea of universal government comes before us as she is seen coming out from God. It should affect the whole meeting.
CAM You are speaking now of the administrative side as governed by the opening of this chapter. I suppose, as has already been said, it would be like the blessedness of the gospel of John; it is the God who inhabits eternity and tabernacles amongst men; that is the setting there. But when we come to the administrative side in the end of our chapter, it really links on with the gospel of [p. 459] Matthew. The number twelve, the points of the compass, and the city of the great king are common to both.
JTJr It is really impossible for any of us to take part in the latter unless we know something of the former. We should know how to speak to God in the assembly, if we are to take up administrative matters.
Rem David would represent that kind of man in contrast to Saul. It was a long time after Saul was anointed that he built an altar; whereas it was customary with David when approaching conflict to go to God about it; he came out from God in that way. This has an important bearing on the way we approach the issues that come up among the people of God now in our various localities. David would represent one who came out from God in administration, because he really took the heavenly position, in taking Jerusalem, and refers to it in Psalm 24.
FC It says it is the holy city.
JTJr I suppose David had that before him. He knew how to speak to God, and he introduced the service of song. Every one of us should have part in the great outburst of praise to God in the assembly. We would then be more capable of taking up administrative matters, as a glorious and rejoicing people.
Ques In verse 10 John is taken to a great and high mountain, from which he sees the city coming down. Does that fit in with Matthew’s gospel and show that we are still down here?
AR Matthew’s gospel makes much of the thought of mountains; there are seven referred to in it. The holy city would be in contrast to what is unholy, so that every administrative matter in the assembly should be maintained on a high level in seeking to maintain holiness.
[p. 460] Ques Is not the great and high mountain important, too, as suggesting that we are in a position where we can view things aright; still down here, but not on man’s level.
Rem When David fled from Jerusalem because of Absalom, he “went up by the ascent of the Olives, and wept as he went”, 2 Samuel 15: 30. Then, when he reached the summit, he worshipped God, as if to indicate that the man was right with God; not only from God to him, but from himself to God. Nothing in relation to Jerusalem would be lost with that kind of man, even though the position amongst the people of God may be one of smallness and reproach.
AR Would it not challenge us as to how we come to our care meetings? It says the city is coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. If we came to our meetings in the light of that, matters would be adjusted according to God, and without unnecessary delay.
Rem King Saul had opportunity to learn what could come down from God, but he moved of himself.
JTJr That was characteristic of the man who forced himself and disregarded the Spirit. Here, John is carried away in the Spirit. It is not only the thought of elevation as suggested in the mountain, but also a question of the power of the Spirit. These factors should affect the whole assembly in arriving at a judgment.
Rem One of the seven angels having the seven bowls introduces John into this position, indicating that the matter relates to judgment. He is in the secret of what God is bringing in, in the way of judgment (chapter 21: 9).
AC Would the fact that John was invited by the angel to come and see the bride, the Lamb’s wife, suggest dignity? What is the present application?
JTJr The great value of this book of Revelation is in our getting its present bearing, and understanding the assembly in its relation to Christ. John is in the Spirit. It really corresponds with Luke’s gospel when Simeon came into the temple in the Spirit. The great burden of John’s ministry is to make us spiritual and to help us to understand the relation of the assembly to Christ.
AR It says, “Her shining was like a most precious stone, as a crystal-like jasper stone”. The word “crystal” suggests transparency. If we are to radiate, we must first be transparent.
RWS There is not only a great and high mountain, but a great and high wall.
ANW I wondered whether that did not give character to all the things to be handled in relation to fellowship; they are great and high, not small, petty, and mean. Does it not suggest exclusiveness in a very great and dignified sense?
JTJr If we are in the gain of this the truth will govern us in every relation, for it involves the truth, which at times may seem very high and testing.
WFK The foundations are visible. We are told, “the firm foundation of God stands”, 2 Timothy 2: 19. Is this the public display to the world?
JTJr This describes what is coming out in display. The idea of substance is here. It is a cube; not an empty thing, but a solid, indicating real substance in the souls of the saints, built upon a foundation that cannot be moved.
Rem Today it is a wholly spiritual matter; in that day it will be an official matter. The substance that has been committed to us now is to be taken up in the Spirit’s power in relation to the city gates; that is, in administrative [p. 462] matters.
AR The idea of the city is being worked out amongst us in an administrative way, so that it becomes an exercise as to whether we can come up to the measurements of verse 15 today. We would find greater results among the saints if we laboured with this view of Jerusalem before us.
ABP Is that not exemplified in the first epistle to the Corinthians? Paul lets us into the secret of this great principle when he tells us that fourteen years before he had been caught up into Paradise (2 Corinthians 12). He saw everything from that view point.
AR He was an “assembly man”. He worked out administrative matters from the divine side.
Rem Most of Paul’s public ministry was undertaken after he knew a man in Christ. He really knew what it was to come out of heaven in relation to his ministry.
JS It is noticeable that the Spirit seems to dwell on the details of the gates and the foundations, showing what God has in mind for us at the present moment.
AR One feels that the idea of measure should enter more into our local gatherings; the city is measured, and the wall is measured; we should discern if the idea of measure is with us in all our administrative matters; as to whether they correspond to the measurements of the city.
Rem It really should enter into every christian’s mind. We are responsible to walk in the light as God is in the light, and this measuring should be in mind, for it is done according to the divine standard, not man’s standard. A golden reed is used for measuring.
JTJr So that everything that is brought into our meetings should reflect the truth as from God. There should be no room for mere opinions, but what the truth of God is about [p. 463] the matter.
AR Fellowship is based on the apostle’s ministry; that which was set up at the beginning. No doubt the wall has fellowship in view.
Rem It would keep out evil and enclose what is of God. Then there is the idea of the gates, too, which would denote care and watchfulness, for there is an angel at each gate.
AR If this city, in a coming day, will have influence in a mediatorial way to preserve what is of God on earth and give effect to it, we should be concerned as to how much influence the assembly has upon men today, for the gates and the city and the wall are all measured.
Rem It says it is “a man’s measure, that is, the angel’s” (verse 17), as though intelligence enters into it; so that the saints should take this on as being set for the fulfilment of God’s will.
Rem There can be no lowering of God’s standard. God will not permit of that. We may say that the idea of separation is becoming greater, and that the sieve is becoming finer and the wall higher, but really, God’s standard is always the same. We must start with the standard and adhere to it.
JS The twelve gates would represent perfect administration.
ANW Malachi closes with remembering the law of Moses given for all Israel (see Malachi 4: 4); the divine standard is held to the end.
Rem Everyone that comes into fellowship would enter through the twelve gates, in principle. There should be no different standard for fellowship from one city to another, nor should things be held more loosely in one place than in another. It is the idea that the requirements for entering at one gate are to be the same for all gates.
JS Some might seek to come in through the south gates. But what comes in through the south must correspond with the north.
AR [p. 464] At the gates there are twelve angels and names inscribed which are those of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel; so that as coming in through one gate one comes to nothing less than the full thought; that is, one is in relation to the whole assembly.
Rem This would be corrective of loose principles or local independence. The standard and bearing of christian fellowship is universal.
AR The tribal thought is introduced here. Each gate represents a tribe in relation to the other eleven tribes.
Rem And all the gates are linked together by the one wall; linked together in the exercise of the same kind of government.
JS That is helpful; there were twelve angels at the twelve gates. It would help us to recognise that heaven is to be represented here, so that we might do things in the light of this.
Rem The idea of the angels would be seen in those men that were faithful to David when he fled from Absalom. Zadok and Abiathar and Hushai would be like angels standing at the gates of Jerusalem; they really stood for the truth according to Psalm 24, what Jerusalem is in an assembly setting.
AR There is also a link with the addresses to the seven assemblies in the opening of this book, where the “angel of the assembly” is addressed in each letter.
ABP Would you say that the angel might suggest complete freedom from partisanship or personal feeling? An angel knows to do nothing but the will of God.
JS The fact that the four points of the compass are alluded to would bring in the universal aspect; we should always have that in mind.
Rem The angel with the golden reed would bring in the responsible element. It is not official,
[p. 465] but one who carries out the thought of God. The golden reed would suggest that he does not have his own thoughts before him.
AR Reference has been made to each gate being one pearl. Each saint coming into fellowship should be impressed with the full idea of what he is coming into; the idea of the one pearl, held in the souls of the saints in each local gathering.
JS And he should be in the full light of the death of Christ. The pearl would suggest that which is out of death.
ABP In Acts 15, which gives us the great model for our care meetings, we are told that they arrived at a common judgment. Would that not suggest the oneness of the gates?
AR Paul’s work was based on this “one” idea.
ANW And should we not act in the light of accessibility, as suggested in the three gates on every side, making the city accessible to any that would approach?
Rem And under whatever conditions they approach.
RWS The foundations of the wall of the city are adorned with every precious stone, the product of pressure and suffering, which was exemplified in the apostles who suffered in a peculiar way. They led in suffering; they were like the cattle which were led ahead of others, spoken of as David’s spoil, in 1 Samuel 30: 20; and are not the same features seen in Revelation 11, where the bodies of the two witnesses will be on the street of the great city which is called, spiritually, Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified? Where the suffering feature is not maintained, there is no securing of spoil.
JTJr That is helpful. David’s mighty men came to light at the end, as well as at the beginning of his reign. They represent the element that goes through.
[p. 466] This is seen in 1 Chronicles 11: 10 - 40, and in 2 Samuel 23: 8 - 39.
AR They are the twelve apostles of the Lamb. They have a special link with the One who suffered.
JTJr It is great spoil for Christ in that we can sit together as brethren today and enjoy the meaning of this number twelve!
Rem The twelve oxen that supported the molten sea in Solomon’s day faced the four points of the compass; they looked out; they did not look in on one another, and the idea of these twelve gates might suggest that we should be looking out, holding things locally in relation to the universal idea. It should help us not to become isolated in our thoughts.
AR The gates shall not be shut at all by day, and night shall not be there; evidently there will be no need for them to be shut at all.
ABP The necessity for self-judgment was referred to earlier in the meeting. I suppose we should find it difficult to link the name of Peter, the first apostle, with the jasper stone transparency of the first foundation, were it not for John 21.
AR His epistles would also show that he is worthy of being linked on with the first foundation.
ABP But does not John 21 bring out in detail how the thing works out; the heart-searching which resulted from the Lord’s probing, and finally his words, “Thou knowest all things”? Would that not be, in principle, the jasper stone clear as crystal?
JS After such searching there would be no dark spot.