BONDMEN OF GOD (4)
[p. 52] BONDMEN OF GOD (4)
Revelation 19: 1 - 10; Revelation 22: 1 - 9
JT These scriptures complete, I believe, the references to bondmen in the book. The subjects are the destruction of the great corruptress of the earth, who is described earlier, particularly in chapter 17, and then the marriage of the Lamb, and then the function of the bondmen in the millennial state of blessing, indeed in the heavenly city — it is said in chapter 22 that “his servants shall serve him, and they shall see his face; and his name is on their foreheads”. Finally, both in chapters 19 and 22, we have the danger noted of servants, or bondmen of the Lord, worshipping others than Himself, that danger always existing; even, as in John’s case, the most honoured are exposed to this danger. At the beginning of chapter 19 attention is called to the avenging of the blood of His bondmen, the bondmen of God, at the hand of this corruptress of the earth. In verse 5, “a voice came out of the throne, saying. Praise our God, all ye his bondmen, and ye that fear him, small and great”, so that all bondmen are called into this celebration of praise; the occasion of it is negative, but it calls attention to the interest of the bondmen of God in this great deliverance, the destruction of the harlot. We have already spoken of current events in relation to chapter 10, what we may call political or international events. What is contemplated here is current history, history that enters into the assembly period, the present dispensation, and the bondmen of God are assumed to have interest in, and to know, this history, for it has affected the assembly, the service of God, almost throughout the entire dispensation.
Rem I was wondering if the letters to the seven assemblies contain education for [p. 53] the assembly.
JT Yes, the history of the assembly is involved in those letters, in chapters 2 and 3, but the history of the work of God is also involved in them; so that we have the positive side running through. The bondmen would all be regarded as interested. Here we have the end of the history of the great harlot as she is called — this is final, and hence the remarkable celebration, as if it is a burst of relief from the awful pressure that the spiritual had been under, because of this system.
Ques Is the history that you refer to now more what might be termed religious history, than political history?
JT That is what I was thinking; chapter 10 contemplates more what is political, but as related to the testimony, the nations. This is a religious system, and we may call it a spiritual one, for it is characterised by the presence of spiritual influences, great Babylon is said to have “become the habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hated bird”. So that we have to regard her, not only as the religious organisation, but as a system characterised by evil spiritual power.
EG I notice that in chapter 18, the word is to “heaven ... saints and apostles and prophets”, but here it is addressed to “his bondmen”; have you any thought as to the difference?
JT It is a question of judgment in chapter 18 — “Rejoice over her, heaven, and ye saints and apostles and prophets; for God has judged your judgment upon her”. It would appear that they are regarded as having formed a judgment as to her, and now God is executing it. Chapter 19 is more inclusive; I suppose that verse in chapter 18 is exclusive, that is, it contemplates the highest spiritual intelligence, judgment and discernment. Saints are put first, then apostles, and then prophets; but all are called into [p. 54] this ascription of praise in verse 5 of chapter 19 — it is more general — “Praise our God, all ye his bondmen, and ye that fear him, small and great”.
HB Would that imply that the bondmen would be characteristically in keeping with the judgments of God upon this system?
JT Well, that is what is in mind; but chapter 18: 20 is more specific as to greatness and spirituality, as inclusive of those who were most capable of judging, heaven itself and the saints — which of course is a characteristic word — and then the apostles and prophets; they have a judgment of the system — “your judgment”. God is honouring them as executing what they have judged, and I think the verse enters into all our disciplinary meetings — one would make it practical — how heaven ratifies the judgments we have reached; if it does not, they are not effective, because our judgments ought to have always a wide bearing, the full bearing of the assembly. The execution of divine judgment now is in the assembly, hence the importance of Matthew 18: “If ... he will not listen to the assembly ...” it is authoritative, it is invested with the heavenly prerogative as to discipline and judgment generally.
HB Do you mean then that in our judgments in the assembly, the universal position should be kept in view?
JT Yes; it is never to be merely local. So the apostle, in directing the discipline at Corinth, introduces his own spirit into the position, saying: “in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (ye and my spirit being gathered together, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ), him that has so wrought this: to deliver him, I say, being such, to Satan for destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”. The fact that the apostle’s spirit is there gathered in view of the discipline, I think, calls attention to the organism in which we [p. 55] are, and that the bearing of judgment includes the whole assembly, and hence any local judgments or discipline should command the assent of saints generally; it should never be regarded as an independent matter, but one that concerns the whole assembly.
HL How does the assembly express itself so as to be refused — “if also he will not listen to the assembly ...” Matthew 18: 17? Would it do to come from the care meeting?
JT The assembly never speaks through the care meeting; the care meeting is only preliminary to the assembly. The only authoritative body is the assembly; Scripture regards it as having an authoritative voice. The organism, the “one body”, must underlie all these matters. The assembly can speak; all are in it, the underlying organism is the secret of universal assent, universal understanding, too, of what is done.
HB If one hears the voice of the assembly at a disciplinary meeting, should it produce such repentance so that we move towards it?
JT Just so, and it was so at Corinth; the apostle mentions the great ultimate end, that is, “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”. The man was a real christian, as we say, his spirit was saved before the day of the Lord Jesus, and that is what we should look for, so that the second letter deals with that point; repentance had taken place, his spirit was right already; it was right enough for them to confirm their love to him. They were in danger of blocking the work of God in the man, but the assembly has prerogative to remit sin, also powers of healing and recovery. They were evidently overlooking this and not leaving themselves open for the operations of God in the way of healing and restoration. These feelings are essential to the discipline, we are to be amenable to the gracious actions [p. 56] of God in the healing and restoration of a sinner. The Corinthians were slow, but the apostle would not go ahead of them, he would promote in them the feeling of forgiveness and the confirming of their love to him.
In the case of this system of which we are speaking, there is no thought of restoration, there is no hope at all of her. In the individual letters to the assemblies, Thyatira is the one that deals with this system in its incipient stages, it is viewed under the symbol of Jezebel, and the Lord says “she will not repent”, and according to chapter 18, the judgment is now being executed. They were unable to execute it themselves, for, from the time of Jezebel, the only hope was withdrawal, separation; but God says, I have power to deal with her and I am doing it now; that is what occasions this great celebration of joy.
Ques Do I understand you to say that there should be some knowledge amongst us of all that this history entails?
JT There should. If we are bondmen of God, if we are in His service, we should surely feel the awful pressure of this. It is a great blot on Christendom, dating back to the third century, and who could be a lover of God without feeling that this is an outburst of relief through what God has done in removing this awful blot on His creation! It was an accumulated judgment, as I understand it — your judgment — expressed in the groans of the saints who suffer from this pressure right down these ages.
Rem So among the things found in her were souls of men.
JT Yes — traffic in them.
HB These three mentioned — saints, apostles, prophets — are three assembly features as in Ephesians. In order to come into line with that now, would you say there requires to be this judgment expressed in the way of [p. 57] withdrawal?
JT That is the idea. Heaven is in the judgment, according to Matthew, what is bound on earth is bound in heaven — that is how the matter stood. Now heaven is mentioned first, it is in accord with all the judgment the saints, apostles, and prophets had. The accumulation of judgment is remarkable, and now God takes it on to deal with it Himself.
Ques Would it seem that God allows this system to go on for the education of His bondmen? Then, as they have suffered and received the instruction, He executes the judgment; but He waits on them till they have received the instruction.
JT Yes. Other scriptures show that Babylon had “fallen”; there was a certain releasement of the pressure at that time, but only making her worse. There was relief from it in her fall, she lost prestige and power, but she became worse; she became “the habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hated bird”. She became worse, and she has continued in that fallen condition up to the present moment.
Ques Do you think the fall of Babylon would make room for God to call upon His people to come out of her?
JT I think that is how the thing stood historically. Her power became more limited, she lost political power; it was a way for those who feared God — His people — to come out of her. The point is that they should not be partakers of her sins — “Come out of her, my people, that [p. 64] ye have not fellowship in her sins, and that ye do not receive of her plagues”. If any of God’s people are in her, they will be judged in her — at least that is the bearing of their position — as Jonathan was judged with Saul. The apostle was concerned that the Corinthian saints should not be “judged with the world”, and it is a very solemn reminder to anyone who is in this system, or its extensions (for there are extensions [p. 58] of it) that there is a danger of their being judged with her; so the word is, “Come out of her, my people”.
AR How does that fit in with what is said to Thyatira, “But to you I say, the rest who are in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they [p. 62] say, I do not cast upon you any other burden; but what ye have hold fast till I shall come”? They evidently are owned, although remaining in the system.
JT I think that historically the recognition of a remnant would synchronise with the divine call to come out of her. The letter does not direct the saints to leave anything, they are taken account of just as they are in each assembly, the idea of formal separation is not stated in the letters. Each assembly is taken account of in its general public position and what is of God in it is owned, but we can discern that Philadelphia could not exist save on the principle of separation, nor could a remnant in Thyatira really subsist save on that principle.
Ques Do you suggest that what you speak of is consequent on the letter to Thyatira — things have developed?
JT I think it would be consequent on the ministry that would flow out of the letter to Thyatira. There was a ministry right down, opening up each letter and making application. “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. What the Spirit would say in any given period would be an amplification of what Christ’s letter governing it contained.
Ques Why is it said she corrupted the earth (chapter 19: 2)?
JT I suppose it is the political state of things, speaking practically. Europe and her out-goings, that being the area of Jezebel’s machinations. Who [p. 59] has not discerned that the whole ordered condition of things has been corrupted by her? In verse 5 of chapter 19 certain ones are called upon to praise God: “all ye his bondmen, and ye that fear him, small and great”, as if they would be brought into the praise. Verse 20 of the previous chapter is more limited, but God would bring all His people into the result; even if we have not a true judgment about her, God will call us into the result. It is often seen in a local meeting, that most do not really enter into things, the discernment or judgment of evil, but when it is manifest, and the judgment is executed, then they can come into it and the results of it — the position that flows from it, the gain to God, for every disciplinary action ought to yield to God. The discipline in itself yields to God.
FS Should we have these feelings in eating the Lord’s supper, in relation to those held in bondage, that they should worship the Father, that we should feel and be concerned as to those who are missing?
JT That is a good suggestion, for the Lord feels their absence. He would say, Where are they? And those who love God know where many are, who are not walking in the truth, they have a judgment as to them. 2 Timothy says, “The Lord knows those that are his”. Well, we are with Him in that. But then, Where are they? The Lord asks, “Where are the nine?” Many of them, alas! are in Babylon.
Ques Would the apostle’s word in Ephesians 3 help us on that line, he says, “that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height”? Would it encourage us on the line of seeking to have “all the saints” before us on such occasions when we enjoy so much?
JT That is right. As lovers of God we love the brethren, and hence feel their absence. 2 Timothy says the Lord knows them, and I think He would [p. 60] remind us as to where they are — Where are the nine? It is very sorrowful to think of them in the evil system referred to in our scripture.
FI Does Thyatira refer to only what we might call the communicants in the church of Rome, or does it view the whole of the profession positionally connected with Thyatira? Is not the public position of the church today Thyatira?
JT I think so. It is the fourth assembly addressed, and contemplates the public body characteristically, and which goes on to the end. The other three continuing represent conditions: Sardis, the outcome of the movement called the Reformation; Philadelphia, the result, of a subsequent movement of the Spirit of God; and Laodicea, the result — in pride and worldliness — of the human mind stimulated by the activity of the Spirit in the revival of the truth, as seen in the Philadelphian result. It would be Protestantism as to what it has come to. Thyatira has to be apprehended by itself, but it represents the public body right through; and the whole public body is viewed in the destruction of Babylon, because all the religious, organisations have become, or will become, affiliated with it in one way or another.
Ques Would the last three be included in that expression, “the rest who are in Thyatira”?
JT That is an expression you only find there; it is tantamount to the word “remnant”, that is, what remains for God or what the Lord had been describing. Thyatira is one of the seven and owned as an assembly, but suffering this woman, this corruptress. “The rest” are there, they are not viewed as detached from it, they are there; they are just viewed as a remnant with the promise of the millennium. That is the position, Philadelphia is the carrying forward of that thought, and the development of it in the light of [p. 61] the assembly.
HL Does the great sheet let down from heaven cover the present situation you are referring to? The unclean birds are seen later on in chapter 19.
JT The sheet that came down from heaven alludes to what God has taken on, viewed in its historical capacity, but as cleansed and thus linked on with what God is doing.
HL I was thinking of the world in reconciliation, and the unclean birds are now seen in chapter 18 as only unclean.
JT Well, but those in the sheet came down from heaven; Peter says they are unclean, but heaven says they were cleansed. What was in the sheet represented the then current work of God among the nations.
HL I thought that sheet referred to all men and the world in reconciliation.
JT But the world’s reconciliation, seen in Romans 11, does not go so far as cleansing, it is simply a question of the provisional attitude of God towards the world.
HB What is under consideration is the responsible side as to the general profession.
JT Yes, it is what the public system has become. Although the mind is directed to Rome, it really takes in all the public systems.
HB The extensions you spoke of would include all the clerical systems.
JT Exactly. All these public systems, that have taken on things that belong to Rome, are not clear in the matter; what the Lord exposes and condemns, clericalism, priest-craft linked with worldliness, seen in all current religious organisations, mark Rome; indeed generally they have come out of Rome. Hence all will ultimately be included in Babylon and judged in her.
Rem It says, “as many as have not this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I do not cast upon you any other burden; but what ye have hold fast till I shall come”. I wondered whether a certain measure of separation would not be implied on their part in those words, “as many as have not this doctrine ...”
JT It would, as to personal state, but not as to public position, I think.
EG Is not “the overcomer” a state further than “the rest”? It goes on to the overcomer in that next verse.
JT Yes, but the promise to him would indicate the measure of his overcoming; he is not an overcomer like the one in Philadelphia; he shepherds the nations with a rod of iron; that is what Jezebel was doing in her corrupt way, undertaking to rule the nations. The promises to the overcomer in Philadelphia are very far in advance of that.
What we are speaking of now is the idea of a judgment about things, and whether the bondmen of God, those who serve, are really conversant with this terrible thing and have a judgment about it; if we have not, we can scarcely serve the saints. Paul says, “ye and my spirit being gathered together”, that is, I do not want to be outside what is being done in the assembly in the way of discipline. Underlying all that is the idea of the body, the organism, the power of feeling — what exists universally.
LDM In Ezekiel 9: 4, Jehovah said to the man clothed with linen, with the writer’s ink-horn by his side, “Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that are done in the midst thereof”.
JT “All the abominations” — that is instructive, the power of feeling things, and that nothing is left out. That corresponds with what we are speaking of, how it is contemplated that we have a judgment [p. 63] about things, that we have a judgment about this terrible thing and all its outgoings; God will link them all on in the final judgment.
Ques Does chapter 18: 2 give you the idea of what is governmental? It speaks of it as the hold of every unclean spirit and every unclean and hated bird. J.N.D. has a note that this means a prison where they are confined.
JT I have no doubt it is governmental, but it is a means the system has of silencing any elements regarded as contrary to it.
Rem I was thinking also of the door being opened; that is for the overcomer, not for the unclean bird. God in His governmental dealing with the system has in it a hold for the unclean bird.
JT Yes. It silences all conscience; it has a means of repression, but then it is really governmental, that is, all these evil things are confined there.
WB As we judge the spirit of Babylon as seen in Psalm 137, do we have a corresponding appreciation of what the assembly is for God — “Jerusalem above my chief joy”. The psalmist refers to sitting down by the rivers of Babylon; then he goes on, “Daughter of Babylon, who art to be laid waste, happy he that rendereth unto thee that which thou hast meted out to us. Happy he that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the rock”.
JT This is a good illustration of a true judgment — you mean. That is what God looks for. There was a paper written nearly a hundred years ago entitled, The Notion of a Clergyman, Dispensationally the sin against the Holy Ghost — a very remarkable production that really cut at the root of all this. God would have us stand clear of it, for any one who does not is included in the judgment that is expressed here — “Come out of her, my people, that ye have not fellowship in her sins”. One is not clear of the matter if he is there.
HB Then if one desires to be a bondman or a bondmaid, this is the first essential.
JT It is; you get a harp, as we were saying. The point is that the political system of things is signified by a little book, and the thought was, “The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come”, and then there is the celebration. Now we are occupied with the religious system and the result of its overthrow, so that it is a question of having a judgment, and, as having a judgment, we can sing — we come into the realm of singing. You get no such celebration throughout the book as in this chapter 19; the first is negative, that is, those who have a judgment of Babylon and rejoice in its destruction; then those who rejoice in the marriage of the Lamb — “the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife ...” — she is true to Christ in all this. Now the celebration continues; it is in two parts, the first is because of what is negative, the destruction of Babylon, and the second stands in relation to the true wife of Christ and the marriage of the Lamb to her.
WH What is the force of the word “Hallelujah”?
JT It is a word brought down from the Old Testament; it denotes the praise of Jah, and I believe, a keen spiritual insight into the Deity as revealed. In the first section we have it, and then “a second time they said, Hallelujah”; and then again the elders and living creatures say, “Amen, Hallelujah”. It is God who is before them, they are employing Old Testament language, but it is a word that includes the Deity, I believe, and keen insight into it. The Psalms, of course, give us the word, and, as brought into christianity here, we are entitled to use it, and we do use and should use it. Then the twenty-four elders — this is the last mention [p. 65] of them — and the four living creatures fell down and did homage to God. They refer to the assembly in two ways — those who have experience with God, and those who, as creatures, are sympathetic with God, and they say, “Amen, Hallelujah”. So we have Hallelujah three times in those four verses, and then a voice came out of the throne saying, “Praise our God, all ye his bondmen, and ye that fear him, small and great”. But the Hallelujahs are confirmed in the praise of the twenty-four elders and the four living creatures; the highest intelligences and the most sympathetic join in this celebration, showing what a thing it was, what faith understood, and what is within the capacity of spiritual understanding; and then there is the outburst of praise and worship in the sense of relief.
EG After the first celebration it says, “her smoke goes up to the ages of ages”.
JT That would mean that the judgment is eternal.
WA Do you think John had this in mind when he said, “Herein has love been perfected with, us that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, that even as he is, we also are in this world”?
JT Just so; that shows how these elders and living creatures exist and have their places, they are in that light — “as he is”. It is in that light we can judge things, we have a true standard.
The only other thing we can say now is as to the bondman’s place in the heavenly city. You have here, “his servants shall serve him” — the word for “servants” here also is “bondmen” — it refers to the public service of God, that is, you might say, the religious side. There are those who serve in the assembly carrying on the service that is due to God, the bondmen do that and they have the utmost liberty there — “they shall see his face”, so the thought of bondmen is carried on to the heavenly [p. 66] city. Then the danger is again seen of bondmen worshipping intermediaries, great servants of God. John, we are told, “fell down to do homage before the feet of the angel who shewed me these things. And he says to me, See thou do it not. I am thy fellow-bondman, and the fellow-bondman of thy brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Do homage to God” — a very good word to finish with. The angel is saying, I am just one of the bondmen; he takes that place, as Peter did — “I myself also am a man”, he said to Cornelius; whereas his professed successor in Rome looks for worship now, he looks for the very thing that John would render and which the angel sternly forbids. The Lord’s people are sometimes in danger of that, of paying unseemly attention to those whom God may use.
Rem You are not suggesting that distinguished servants should not be honoured and listened to in their service. I was thinking that sometimes the natural mind in us takes an independent form in disregarding servants and what the Lord is obviously giving through them.
JT It is very important to add that.