BONDMEN OF GOD (3)
[p. 33] BONDMEN OF GOD (3)
Revelation 10: 5 - 11; Revelation 11: 15 - 18; Revelation 15: 2 - 4
JT We are all aware, no doubt, that the word “servants” in these passages is properly rendered “bondmen”, and what perhaps will occupy us chiefly this morning is the prophetic services of the bondmen of God. John himself is to be viewed in this book as a prophet, styled formally bondman of Christ, but in chapter 10 he is viewed as a prophet, having prophesied, and being told that he should prophesy again, because of certain conditions that rose in him as the mind of God was assimilated. The Lord Himself is seen as speaking under the guise of an angel in verses 5 to 7; the facts presented in the chapter show it is the Lord Himself. As having title to all below, He puts His right foot on the sea and His left foot on the land and swears “that there should be no longer delay; but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound with the trumpet, the mystery of God also shall be completed, as he has made known the glad tidings to his own bondmen the prophets”. The Lord’s words here direct our attention to what God has made known to His own bondmen the prophets, that is, the glad tidings, and that they, in their ministries, had spoken of the mystery of God. God’s bondmen are taken into His thoughts, as He said, “the Lord Jehovah will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets”, Amos 3: 7.
Whilst special prophets are in mind here, it may be profitable to call attention to the place that the prophetic ministry is obtaining amongst the saints, and to inquire whether this scripture, indeed, the whole book of Revelation, does not enter into it, for it is a question of bondmanship in those who minister,
[p. 34] those who prophesy, and their being in the secrets of God, having understanding of the times, to know what Israel ought to do, being conversant, too, in the closing days with the mystery of God, knowing that what is now in mystery shall soon be disclosed publicly. The Lord Jesus, in this chapter, is seen as taking possession in principle, or title, of the sea and the earth and asserting these things. Those of us who would take part in prophetic ministry, opportunity for which is available, are to understand that we are to be in the secrets of God. The Lord is giving assurance in the ministry He is giving, corresponding with this chapter, of His title to all, not only in heaven, but on earth, where men and nations are making so much of their titles and rights. There is so much aggressiveness in rulers that the Lord would steady us in taking us into His thoughts as to His rights to everything, and that we do not relinquish them, we stand by them. I thought we might have that before us, and the terms on which John is to be allowed to continue, for we are tested in the continuance of any ministry we may have. The testimony here was that the little book, as eaten, was in his mouth sweet, but in his belly bitter, and so it is said, “Thou must prophesy again”, as if he is thus qualified to continue; it is a renewed test to him, as we all are tested in our services.
HB What is the point in the effect upon him, making his belly bitter?
JT I think it is that you feel things, you feel the effect of the accomplishment of the divine counsels and what the process is for the saints, what is involved in it for them, and for men generally. John was representative, I think, of a servant who feels things, both in regard to God’s feelings and man’s; we are not to be unfeeling in our service. The word of God is sweet as it is, to faith, to those who love God, but still, the consequences of it, or what it [p. 35] discloses, may occasion much sorrow, and we are not to be unfeeling about that.
HB Then, it is not only the effect of his service on the one who serves, but he feels the effect of it on others.
JT That is what I was thinking. There is much sorrow current, and there will be more. God is going on with His ways, and of course the great culmination of His governmental ways will be Jacob’s sorrow. It is a question of the spirit of prophecy always, the testimony of Jesus. “Jesus wept” — it enters into the testimony of Jesus, that He could weep as seeing the sorrow of others.
Ques The order in verse 9 is that the bitterness comes first; what would you say to that?
JT That was what the angel said, “Take and eat it up: and it shall make thy belly bitter, but in thy mouth it shall be sweet as honey”. I suppose that is the consideration of God for the servants, divine feeling, sympathy with us in our service as to what we have to go through. The Lord said of Paul that He would show him what great things he had to suffer. Actually, the sweetness was first.
AWR Would Jeremiah be an example of that chapter 4: 19 in regard to Jerusalem? “My bowels! my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war”. Would he be a sample man for the present day in taking up the spirit of prophecy?
JT Jeremiah is a representative prophet, a feeling prophet; he is the only one who wrote a book of lamentation; he represents the side of the truth we are speaking of.
Ques Do you get the same thought suggested in Ezekiel, when he had eaten the roll, he lay on his [p. 36] left side for three hundred and ninety days to bear the iniquity of the people of Israel, and for forty days on his right side to bear the iniquity of Judah? Does he represent one who bore in his spirit the feelings of sorrow that enter into that moment?
JT Quite so, he is representative, not only of the feelings of Christ, but of the actual sufferings of Christ. The testimony of Jesus is what is in mind in the prophecy, the spirit of it.
EG Is it your thought that the contents of this little book would probably involve details of the life of Jesus as a bondman?
JT Well, it is a little book, the details of the life of Jesus will make a big book; John himself said that if the things which Jesus did were fully written, the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. The littleness of the book would imply that its contents are not for enlargement, but necessary for the testimony. It is the history of Europe, I believe, that is, the history of the area in which the testimony has been in this dispensation. It is opened, it is not a mystery: it is known, and the fact that it was to be eaten would convey that although what it conveyed was known, it was not taken to heart. John was now to understand that serious consequences were involved in its accomplishment. The history of Europe is not a mystery, although the mystery of iniquity has been developed in it, and is intelligible to the initiated, but the actual history is a small matter; things relative to the testimony directly and indirectly, enter into it, but generally it is a question of a few things — man’s will, and God does not enlarge on that too much. He gives us enough, however. The little book is, of course, more than mere history; it is the mind of God as to the history: what would be the result judicially of the history — already known, but now to be taken to heart as to its full bearing.
[p. 37] Ques Would the last verse bear out your suggestion in connection with the history of Europe?
JT Yes — “Thou must prophesy again as to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings”. It is the mind of God, of course, but the little book gives you, in a small compass, what is to be known, and the suggestion is, I think, that we are not to spend too much time on current events. The little book is in the hands of Christ, and, as it were, it is all open, the end is sure. So that, in these verses that were read earlier, it says, he “cried with a loud voice as a lion roars”, but in these verses it is a question of the completion of things, and what is interesting peculiarly is that the mystery of God is to be completed “as he has made known the glad tidings to his own bondmen the prophets”.
Ques What is the significance of that — the mystery of God being completed?
JT Well, it is not exactly what we call the mystery of the assembly. Paul had that peculiarly. It is what lies in the prophetic testimony of the Old Testament as well as the New, that the Lord Himself carried on, the prophetic ministry recorded in the three synoptical gospels. It is what God had in His mind in regard of His earthly people, how all will come out and develop publicly, but He directs our minds to God’s bondmen the prophets, and that it was the glad tidings. I think if we read the prophets with this in mind, they will open up to us.
Ques Would the bitterness that follows the eating of the little book stand in contrast to the world and the men of it who would read this history with great pride and exultation?
JT Just so. The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and all modern occurrences are read with avidity. It is not that they should not be understood, but I think the suggestion is that things are told to us in a few words.
[p. 38] Rem The little book, in that way, would enable one to prophesy in the midst of those conditions.
JT I think so. I think one should have a general understanding of what is in the little book. The Lord gives a prophetic outline in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 — three aspects of it. They are not copied from one to the other, but the discourse is comparatively brief; it is all, as it were, the Lord has to say on this matter. He has said enough for faith. In understanding what He said, and of course what is opened up by the other ministers — Paul and Peter particularly, and Jude, and now in the Revelation — one is able to take part in the ministry meeting, as we say, and to speak with intelligence and point, bringing in the mind of God as to all that. The Spirit being here would enlarge on what is written in the souls of the prophets, those who prophesy, so that the mind of God is understood.
WH Would the glad tidings be the unfolding of the mind of God in regard of Christ, giving you great scope, but the little book referring to what would stand in the way of that?
JT What is in it? — exactly. One is struck with the number of prophets, major and minor, and the prophetic outline running through the New Testament, all entering into the gospel; the heart of God is set forth in the gospel and His bondmen are brought into His thoughts, hence the prophet Isaiah is evangelical. It is most thrilling, as you might say, at times, to read the magnificent strains of Isaiah in the gospel, and so, in measure, throughout all the prophets.
GCS That is why Isaiah speaks of the nations as a drop in the bucket and fine dust in the scales.
JT Yes. The nations in themselves are nothing, and God sits on the circle of the earth. They are nothing in His mind, but then He has the gospel in mind, and a man who is needing the gospel is [p. 39] reading the prophet Isaiah, he is going down from Jerusalem to Ethiopia reading the fifty-third chapter; and the evangelist says, “Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?” So “Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus”, Acts 8: 31, 35. That is the setting of the truth as we are speaking of it.
HPW Do you think, in seeking to present the gospel in these days, we should have in mind the almost immediate appearing of the glory, and therefore we should speak in a powerful way of the coming of Christ and the kingdom? Should this have a large place in what we say?
JT I think it should, I do not know if you have counted up the appellations of the gospel in the Scriptures.
HPW Yes, there are eighteen or nineteen.
JT Yes; showing the wonderful interest of God in the presentation of the gospel. The prophets inquired into the things they ministered — “what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ which was in them pointed out, testifying before of the sufferings which belonged to Christ, and the glories after these. To whom it was revealed, that not to themselves but to you they ministered those things, which have now been announced to you by those who have declared to you the glad tidings by the Holy Spirit, sent from heaven”, 1 Peter 1: 11, 12. All is gathered up in the gospel.
EG Will you say a little more as to the book being sweet in his mouth.
JT Well, I think the mind of God is always sweet to one who loves Him. “Thy words were found”, says Jeremiah, “and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart”, Jeremiah 15: 16. But then he knew how to be sorrowful, [p. 40] too.
HB You have referred to the ministry meeting and to what should come before us in connection with prophecy; do you think, from what has been suggested in these scriptures, that it should have a bearing on the present conditions amongst the saints, or in the world, as the case may be?
JT I think so. I think, as has been suggested, the little book should be understood, because what is current is generally exaggerated in its significance; we are apt to exaggerate what is occurring. One who understands the little book would say, “he who now letteth [hindereth] will let until he be taken out of the way”, 2 Thessalonians 2: 7. That is, He is functioning. While the appointed means of preventing the rise of antichrist is functioning the antichrist will not come; there may be antichrists, but the antichrist will not come; and our prayers should be always based, in that respect, on that sure word of promise. There is that which hinders and He who hinders, and they are functioning, so that whatever may occur in the meantime is not final, it is tentative more or less, to acquaint the saints with what is coming, that we might have sympathy anticipatively with the brethren that are to take our place here. They will suffer, but the Lord has promised the assembly through His letter to Philadelphia, that we shall be kept out of the great tribulation that is to come on all the earth to try them that dwell on the earth. Persons who are dwelling on the earth characteristically, even if christians, are to be solemnly warned, of course, but the heavenly saints are to be taken out of that, and that is a great comfort. Yet the little book is intended to instruct us by inference that we are not to be indifferent to current things. There is a protracted bearing of the book of Revelation, that it has reference to what was current when it was written, and what has occurred ever since too, bearing on the testimony of God, but then, it [p. 41] mainly refers to a critical time, that is, the time after the hindering power is removed. In understanding this we are enabled, by what is and has been current, to understand what will be; and the prophetic ministry in our meetings ought to bear on all these things, so as to help the saints not to be merely theoretic. Surely I am not to be an earth-dweller if the tribulation is intended for earth-dwellers! — that is the moral effect of it.
FI When you say we should be acquainted with current events, you refer, I take it, to what is taking place among the nations of the world now? In what way is that profitable for us?
JT It is God’s provision, it is preparatory. The book of Revelation contemplates what has transpired from the time it was written, or given, until the end; but 2 Thessalonians teaches us that there is a hindering power. There is the mystery of iniquity which has been, and is, working, but there is the hindering power, so that it cannot develop fully until the hindrance is removed, and we can count on that, it functions and will function. In current events we get indications of what will happen, and that enables us to understand this book — the section we are looking at now — and to see how a thing can happen quickly; what would not be expected or dreamed of ten years ago has come to pass. The critical stage contemplated in this book implies that things will come to pass very quickly — “When they may say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction ...” I think it should sober us, but it gives us an understanding, an insight into things, to see this. We are speaking of the prophetic word; it will not help us to look deeply into the newspapers. How voluminous they are as over against the little book! The Lord would say that the latter is all that is needed. And He can make this remarkable announcement, bearing on what was made known to God’s bondmen [p. 42] through the glad tidings, that that is coming to completion. Well, that is very comforting.
Ques Would it be right to say that one result of eating the little book would be, “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men”, 2 Corinthians 5: 11?
JT Well, exactly — the terror of the Lord.
HB How would the voices in heaven, in chapter 11, bear on this? Would that be future, or is there a present bearing connected with it?
JT Well, it is the seventh angel sounding now. The Lord said, in the verses read in chapter 10, “the seventh angel, when he is about to sound” — that is beforehand, but in chapter 11 we have the seventh angel sounding his trumpet. I am wondering whether the brethren are gathering up anything about the prophetic ministry, for John is reminded that he can now prophesy again. It is not because there are meetings that we can go on, there must be right feelings with us. So, in the beginning of chapter 11, we have two prophets, and they suffered — let us not leave that out, that the prophets are sure to suffer. “Which of the prophets”, said Stephen, “have not your fathers persecuted?” There was no prophet that was not persecuted — so we may as well expect suffering. The two witnesses are called prophets, and they suffered.
Ques Do you suggest that prophetic testimony is something additional to what we have had, the Spirit speaking at certain moments, prophetic ministry coming in in keeping with the conditions?
JT Yes, it meets current need. It is no question of foretelling future events, yet there is the spirit of that in it. It is always the testimony of Jesus, so that as the prophetic ministry searches a man, the secrets of his heart are made manifest, and the first result is that he worships God, and that is the great burden of the book we are considering, and the prophets,
[p. 43] too — that God is to be worshipped. We are so prone to be diverted and make other things, perhaps business, an object, besides God. John himself had to be directed, in this book, that he should not worship an intermediary of God — to worship God is the thing. So that prophecy, in this book particularly, is to subdue our hearts and remove from us all commanding objects but God; the Lamb, of course, is also to be worshipped — but worship God. An unbeliever comes into the meeting and he hears the ministry, and the secrets of his heart are made manifest, and falling down he worships God. That is the great result, the great burden of the moment, the worship of God; that God is the supreme Object of worship, and how He is to be worshipped. The prophetic ministry affects a person so that he worships God, and then he reports that God is among you of a truth.
FI By bringing in the thought of the two witnesses, are you thinking that, for ministry to be effective, it must be preceded by right feeling and suffering?
JT Well, feeling goes with it; the assimilation of the little book causes deep feeling, and then the word, “Thou must prophesy again”. You will not be set aside, another will not be taken up instead of you. Then, as a prophet, as a known person, who conveys the mind of God, according to chapter 11, you are persecuted. This is a searching matter. All this comes in between the sounding of the sixth and seventh trumpets; it is in the interval just coming on to the end that these things happen.
Ques Is prophetic ministry only given in meetings convened for that purpose?
JT I think prophetic ministry may come into a meeting like this; there may be something for us now; the Lord seizes any opportunity to speak to [p. 44] us, to search our hearts, the secrets of our hearts, and to make known the mind of God.
Ques In what way would the prophetic ministry be given through sisters now? We read of women in the Acts who prophesied.
JT Well, we have to go by the fact that it did take place. We cannot say that it is taking place. I cannot say that I have much experience of it, but I can see that a sister could convey the mind of God in a prophetic way.
Rem The woman of Samaria said, “Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet”; then the Lord opened up to her the thought of worship, and, as a result of that, she goes into the city and speaks the word.
JT That is a good scripture in regard to what we are saying. We have often marvelled that the Lord spoke to that woman of worship, but the basis of that part of the conversation is that she says to Him, “I perceive that thou art a prophet”. She was convicted and she proceeds to speak about worship, and the Lord carries on the conversation and says wonderful things to her on that great subject; but prophetic ministry is most important, for it deals with the secrets of our hearts.
WB Do you think that the prophet is conscious when he is speaking that the word is penetrating, that it is gripping the saints, so to speak?
JT He may be, I think he would be; but the thing is, is it penetrating, so that the secrets of the hearts of the persons who hear are made manifest?
Ques Does it also affect the conscience? — he is convicted of all.
JT I am glad you mention that, that is, all the saints present are brought into the thing. The man feels that everybody knows now, it is all out.
Ques Is that character of ministry mostly when we are [p. 45] together?
JT Yes, it is the kind of ministry, more than the individual prophets, that is in mind here in the meeting contemplated in the chapter — 1 Corinthians 14: 23.
Ques Is that why the persecution comes?
JT Yes. If a man’s conscience is touched by the ministry, and he does not judge himself, he is apt to persecute you. The general thing is that this ministry as current brings out persecution.
Ques Would the meeting for prophetic ministry indicate to the Lord that we are desirous that He should speak to us; whereas, in other meetings, the Lord might approach Himself as seeing the need?
JT The Lord would take advantage of any opportunity, I believe, to speak to His people. “As they were listening ... he added and spake a parable”, Luke 19: 11.
HB We have an illustration of that in the prophetic word of Stephen. The message was so powerful that they must either bow to it or kill the man who carried it.
JT Yes, they were cut to the heart, and gnashed on him with their teeth. These ministry meetings are arranged so that there should be such a ministry, for 1 Corinthians 14 particularly deals with an actual meeting. It is not a sub-division of the assembly at Corinth, it is “the whole assembly come together in one place”, as if God would say, This is My best, this is where I can operate most effectively. The ministry searches out the inwards of a man, his secrets are manifest, and he is convicted of all, judged of all; but he falls down and worships God and he reports that God is among you of a truth. He is part of the divine system now, in reporting where God is — that God is among the christians.
HPW Do you think that the day is such that the saints might definitely pray for expansion of this present ministry? One wonders whether, in our [p. 46] ministry meetings, we have reached as far as the Lord would have us go?
JT I do not think we have. It is something the Lord is opening up as a provision in view of current most difficult times; and what is very important is transparency, that the secrets of our hearts are made manifest, that we should feel and own wrong things that are exposed, the dark spot should vanish. The passage read in chapter 15 says, “I saw as a glass sea, mingled with fire, and those that had gained the victory over the beast and over its image, and over the number of its name standing upon the glass sea, having harps of God”. That is the thing, everything is open; these are a victorious people, people who have had their hearts searched and their secrets made manifest, and they are victorious over everything. They are not overcome by trade unionism or anything else of the kind; it says they gained the victory over the beast and over the number of its name. They are standing upon the sea of glass having harps of God. They are singers, they are victorious singers, everything made manifest, and therefore we get the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb — the song of Moses, the bondman of God, that is the kind of man that is before them. It is Christ, of course, but it is the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb that they are singing; for the prophetic ministry is to result in the worship of God, it is to make singers of us. I am not overlooking chapter 11 — “And the nations have been full of wrath, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead to be judged, and to give the recompense to thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to those who fear thy name, small and great; and to destroy those that destroy the earth”. That is, the bondmen are coming into their recompense — that is in chapter 11; but the fifteenth chapter is an end, as you might, say, of this lesson, it is the kind [p. 47] of people that are victorious and how they are made singers, and they have harps, heavenly musical instruments.
EG So they are in the good of the whole song now, and further on than when Moses sang, in Exodus 15.
JT I think they are beyond Moses now. They have indeed their own song, as their words show. The character of their singing is what is presented, for we are told what they sing — “Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and do homage before thee; for thy righteousnesses have been made manifest”. That is what they say, but they sing the song of Moses, the bondman of God, and the song of the Lamb. What they sing would bear the character of these songs.
Ques Would you say that we see a touch of this in Acts 16, where Paul and Silas in praying, sing praises to God, and then the jailor falls down and worships God?
JT Well, there is something corresponding in that — “in praying, were praising God with singing”, showing that the service of God involves that the servants are superior, they are victorious in the most excruciating sufferings; they were victorious and sang praises to God and the prisoners heard; the prison was turned into a temple and the sufferers were the worshippers.
Rem In chapter 13: 4 the challenge is put out, “Who is like to the beast? and who can make war with it?” Chapter 15 would indicate that there are those who have the victory.
JT Just so. God is all; it is the God of the Old Testament, of course; we are here on Old Testament lines, the continuation of the testimony there, but it is the suffering position. Moses had just gone through the judgments of God on Egypt; it was no [p. 48] light matter, but he became greater and greater — the man Moses was very great. It is what the bondman of God becomes morally in going through things with God, and now he is singing on the wilderness side of the Red Sea; it is the bondman of God. How he could write about the Hebrew bondman!
Ques In chapter 13 there is an appeal to the one with understanding to count the number of the beast, and in chapter 15 they get the victory over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name.
JT “He that has understanding let him count the number of the beast: for it is a man’s number: and its number is six hundred and sixty-six”. It can never be anything but a man’s number, and it is short of spiritual perfection. But in chapter 15 it is the greatness of God that is seen. The victorious ones say, “Great and wonderful are thy works, Lord God Almighty”. The elders in chapter 11 refer to “who is” in the verses read. “And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, saying, We give thee thanks, Lord God Almighty, He who is, and who was, that thou hast taken thy great power and hast reigned”. They understand God: not simply as the God of the Old Testament, Jehovah Elohim Shaddai, but He who is and who was, who has taken His great power and reigned; and that is over against the number of the beast. It is countable, countable by wisdom; these had gained the victory over that, over the image of the beast and over the number of its name. They are victorious over all this, they have gone through it and met the thing in their experience and overcome it; with all its loud speaking and pretension, they have overcome the number of its name. The beast represents the acme of human power and the “name” would be that concentrated so as to be intelligible to man.
[p. 49] Ques Would you say the knowledge of God as He is would fortify us against this?
JT That is the point, it is with God we have to do. The elders say, “who is, and who was”, but these victors understand and they sing of God as the Lord God Almighty — Jehovah Elohim Shaddai. They take in the great names of God known to the patriarchs and to Moses, and they say, “righteous and true are thy ways, O King of nations. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all nations shall come and do homage before thee; for thy righteousnesses have been made manifest”. They are dealing with the history of the earth and the nations, they are the Jewish remnant undoubtedly, those who belong to Israel, but they know God. They are not on the same level as the assembly, but they are on a high level; they worship God, and speak of others who will do so: “all nations shall come and do homage before thee”. We see in chapter 11 that the twenty-four elders worship God — it is the completion of the whole matter. The seventh trumpet is the completion of the whole matter; it is really, “The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come” — not “the kingdoms of this world”, as in the Authorised Version.
HB Why do they not refer to the prophetic side — “who is to come”?
JT Well, I suppose what they say is enough for the position; Scripture is infinitely accurate. What takes the place of “who is to come” is that He has taken His great power. He who is and who was — “thou hast taken thy great power and hast reigned”. There is no longer anybody to come, He has come, He has taken His great power, and is reigning.
HB They have now reached that prophetic [p. 50] period.
JT Quite so. It is the completion of things here, and every point reached involves worship or praise.
Ques Does John in chapter 5 of his first epistle give its present bearing on the saints in regard to his victory over the world?
JT Quite so. “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” I think what the brethren might take in is the bearing of prophecy, the prophetic ministry and the concurrent result, namely, the worship of God. The song of Moses, “the bondman of God”, comes into the worship of God; his song is included in the services of these victors.
JM As a practical application of what is in your mind: if I were connected up with a trade union, would the prophetic ministry come in to set me free therefrom, and, as being set free, would I experience something of God and of the knowledge of Him in this way, and, as gathering that knowledge, would I become a worshipper?
JT Yes, you get a harp; no trade unionist has a harp, a harp of God. This is clearly seen in the passage in chapter 15, which we have been considering (verses 2 - 4).
JM I would like, then, to ask, would you distinguish between a government provision and a trade union?
JT Certainly, government is of God; in principle, it is always good — “it is God’s minister to thee for good”. Romans 13: 4 — that is a different matter.
Ques Do you make any distinction in these unions? You spoke of what was murderous.
JT If we understand that one, we will understand the others; it is a question of degree. But we should understand the murderous one first; that is the key to the whole position. Even a trade combination [p. 51] against trade unionism may be murderous, although not in the sense of open violence; but they have monopolies to take away the lives of other people, to crush them to death (Proverbs 1: 19) — it is the same thing in that sense. But the open disregard of the rights of God and men, backed by violence even to the extent of murder, should weigh first with every christian and forbid him to have any part in such combinations.