CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (3)
CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (3)
AJG I suppose everybody recognises the unique character of this chapter, which arises from the fact that it is the Son who is addressing the Father, so that there are no limitations. The Lord in speaking to the disciples in the previous chapters would necessarily be, to some extent, limited by the capacity of the disciples, but now, in speaking to the Father, no such limitations arise; so that the chapter has a unique character, in that the Son’s desires come out in full expression, in a wonderfully compressed way, too. The great desire that the Father should be glorified comes out at once, in the Lord saying, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee,” that being the great end. Then the principal part of this prayer of the Lord is concerned first with the disciples, and then with those who should believe on Him “through their word,” and that as left in this world in testimony they should be kept, special stress being laid on sanctification and on unity, and then leading on at the end to the most precious desires expressed by the Son in relation to His own, verses 24 and 26 especially bringing in what is extremely important and blessed.
GCS Are we, in the contemplation of this chapter, in the holiest? We should be as to our state, I mean.
AJG You mean that it brings us into the immediate presence of God?
GCS That is what I was thinking.
AJG Quite so.
HDT Taking the prayer as a whole, as you have outlined the Lord’s desires in the time of testimony,
is it instructive that it is going to eventuate in the glory of His presence eternally?
AJG It is, and the way the Lord commences by saying “The hour is come” emphasises what we remarked yesterday, that the whole matter is known and under divine control; so that our position in testimony should be restful, the Lord not praying that we should be taken out of the world but that we should be kept. So that we are not to be here as in the sense of difficulty - although the conditions are testing - but in the sense that we are here by divine appointment, and the whole matter is under divine control. So that this prayer of the Lord, you might say, covers all that is needed in a remarkably compressed way; and then, having said these things, the next chapter begins, “Jesus ... went out with his disciples.” It is as though the matter is laid before the Father and left, you may say, in peace, and now the period between the departure of Christ to the Father and our being taken out of the scene of testimony is to be filled out in peace, in the sense that the whole requirements of the position have been laid out before God.
EBL Would you say that the Son of God is seen in all His beauty and glory in this chapter?
AJG Well, it is an affecting chapter. It is just one of the features of glory that shine through John’s gospel. We see the Lord in His communion with the Father, and it is certainly a great privilege to be allowed to contemplate it.
GAL Is it not very touching the way the Lord Jesus refers to the taking up of His own rights that He might serve in the Father’s dispensation to glorify Him?
AJG Quite so, and even when the Lord takes up His own rights, it will be to the glory of God, the Father.
GAL I was thinking, for instance, He does not demand concerning the world, according to Psalm 2, but the time will come when He will. But His great desire in being glorified is that He might glorify the Father.
AJG Yes, all I had in mind in making the remark I did, was that I do not think we ever have the thought of the Lord’s own rights as in any sense distinct from, or eclipsing, the Father’s rights. The Lord has His own rights, but they are all subordinated to the glory of God, so that He, even when He places the saved of the nations in the world to come in their place, says, “Come, blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the world’s foundation,” and so on; Matthew 25: 34. That is that the King of kings would leave the impression on those who are brought into blessing on the earth that they owe their blessing to the Father.
GAL Every family being blessed of the Father.
AJG Yes, exactly, that is what I had in mind.
EBL So you see that He and the Father are one.
AJG Yes, that is greatly stressed, and I think that is something that perhaps the Lord is impressing upon us, because, in our distinction that we rightly make between the Persons of the Godhead and Their respective glories and activities, there is a danger of unconsciously losing sight of the oneness of the Godhead. So, in these chapters, the Lord twice says, “I am in the Father and the Father in me,” and then again, “Thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,” in order to keep the balance of things in our minds, I believe.
HG Would you enlarge on verse 1, Jesus saying, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee”? Why does it come in, “Glorify thy Son”? In Luke, when His birth is contemplated, there is glory to God by His coming into this scene. What is the bearing of “Glorify thy Son”?
AJG I think the Lord has in mind that He must be glorified in order to be able to give the Spirit. He must accomplish redemption and go to the right hand of God, in order to give the Spirit, and that is in mind when He says, “Thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal.” That involves the giving of the Spirit. The time had come for the Lord to be given His place on high in supreme administration, and His first act of administration would be the pouring out of the Spirit.
JSE Had you anything of this in your mind yesterday, when you mentioned the nearness of eternity? Is this thought of “Glorify thy Son” connected with that?
AJG I think it is. We know that, in the ways of God, this period has lasted for nearly two thousand years, but in a sense it was finality that was coming in with Christ going to the Father. The supreme thoughts that were in the Father’s heart were about to come in, but “One day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day,” 2 Peter 3: 8. So that really we are brought now into the presence of eternal conditions.
GCS Is this a fresh glory to what you brought before us in chapter 13, God glorifying Christ in Himself?
AJG That was presented as the answer to God being glorified morally in the Son of man; but this is, “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.” It is a question of giving the Holy Spirit, and bringing in a company in whom God can be glorified.
HFN Would it be right to say that there is the glory of the Father, who is the Originator of divine purpose and counsel, and that the Son is glorified in order to secure the accomplishment of those purposes?
AJG I think so, except that I feel that, while in this day in which the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is known, we recognise that the Father is in the supreme place - “To us there is one God, the Father” (1 Corinthians 8: 6) - yet I think when we go back in mind to before the foundation of the world, when divine counsels were formed, I doubt whether it would be right to attribute that to the Father, to the exclusion of the Son and the Spirit. I think that should be attributed to God. Do you agree with that?
HFN Yes, I do. I think that is excellent and helpful.
SEE Do you connect this desire of the Son to be glorified, with what is said in chapter 7, verses 38 - 40, “He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet been glorified”?
AJG Yes, I do, because this is the day of the Spirit in which the great thoughts of God are being made good in man, and then a testimony is maintained here, not now in the Son of God here, but in the saints. They are in the charge of the Holy Spirit. Although the Spirit is not mentioned in the chapter, the chapter involves His presence here with us.
HDT The position of Christ, from which the Spirit is given, is therefore intended to give particular character to the testimony at the present time.
AJG Yes, it is.
HDT Because we do not receive the Spirit from a humbled Christ, but a glorified One. Does not that give particular heavenly lustre to the present moment?
AJG I am sure it does.
AB In regard to the saints being given eternal life by Christ in glory, is it in view of their having part in testimony here? They are in superiority to conditions around.
AJG I think so. I believe it is important, too, that the main thought before the mind of Christ in His prayer is this present period of testimony here, with Himself on high, and His own down here with the Holy Spirit; and, in order that we might be preserved in testimony, we need to be made superior to all the influences that are around us, and that superiority lies in the enjoyment of eternal life - the knowledge of Him, “the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” It is God truly known, and then the Man that perfectly answers to God also known in our hearts.
HFN I was going to ask whether you would mind saying a little more, because it is a matter of great importance. The very use of the word ‘counsel’ would bring in the deliberations of divine Persons. So that your point is that, in speaking of the Father as being the Originator, we may overlook the fact that it involves each divine Person having His part?
AJG I am inclined to think so. Of course, in the epistle to the Ephesians (chapter 1: 3), it says, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies in Christ,” and He is spoken of, too, as “The God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory” (Ephesians 1: 17), but that is in the light in which God is now known in the economy, as far as I understand it; but if we go back in our minds before the economy was instituted, so to speak, I think we must recognise that divine counsels have their source in God.
HFN And not exactly try and specify the Person in the Godhead? I think that is very helpful.
EuR Does the expression “Let us make man” indicate that?
AJG Well, it may do so. You mean the “us”?
EuR Yes. Otherwise it is God all the way through.
AJG Yes. It is just a question whether “us” is a plural word, or whether it is the “us” of dignity, as the king says “we” and “us,” but I think what you say is right, and that when it is a question of God as the originator of things, we must have the whole in mind.
EuR The word is plural.
AJG Yes.
JMcM Paul says, in Romans 11, “For of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen.” Would it be right there to think of the three Persons?
AJG I think so.
GCS Would “God ... all in all” be involved, too. God in His absolute greatness - or would it still be the thought of the economy?
AJG I think it must be the economy, although all that is involved in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. I do not think as creatures we can go outside of the economy, as far as I can see.
JSE Is it safe to say that this circle, represented by those in the presence of whom the Son was speaking to the Father, will alone be capable of apprehending what is involved in the counsels of God, because they have the Spirit?
AJG Yes, I think so.
JSE And is that why the Holy Spirit has now found it necessary to introduce Himself in such a way that He has more scope in these last days, in view of our reaching this matter?
AJG I think so.
EBL Why is the Spirit not mentioned? Is it His satisfaction to keep silence?
AJG I do not know that we can say much, because this is the Son speaking to the Father in divine intelligence and affection, and if He does not specifically mention the Spirit, I do not think we can say anything, except that He does not, that is all. The time of the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus was not yet glorified. It was not necessary for the Son to speak to the Father about the Spirit, in the same manner as it was necessary for the Lord to speak to the disciples about the Spirit.
HDT Hence the importance of our thoughts, and therefore our expressions, being governed by the way Scripture presents the truth.
AJG I am sure of that.
HDT Because as soon as the mind gets on to what we thought ought to be, or possibly think should be, we may get into wrong conjecture; whereas the Spirit would lead us into the realm of the Spirit Himself.
AJG Yes.
ALRT Does the reference to authority suggest the great universal scope of the economy in its bearing? I was thinking of this expression “all flesh.”
AJG Well, the Lord says, “As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal.” I think it refers to the authority that the Lord has over all, in virtue of accomplished redemption. Hence He has the right to give life eternal to those whom the Father has given to Him.
GAL Would it not be seen typically in Joseph? He had supreme authority and brought his brethren into the very place of nourishment in Goshen. The Spirit is life.
AJG Yes, quite so. But I think what Mr. B. remarked earlier is important, that, while life eternal is not in any sense limited to this aspect, what is especially in mind is our being here in testimony, and our being preserved, and the great secret of our preservation is being in the enjoyment and power of eternal life.
WSS In John’s epistle he could speak of “that eternal life.”
AJG Yes, exactly.
WSS That eternal life is to be continued in principle.
AJG Yes, and especially as the Lord defines it here, “That they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” Mr. Taylor has often said that that involves deliverance from idolatry and deliverance from lawlessness. That is that God is given His true place as the object before our hearts, and the Man that perfectly answers to God is given His place and is known in our affections and regulates us. That means that we are saved from idolatry and lawlessness.
TJD Would you connect verse 2, where He speaks of “All that thou hast given to him,” with verse 9, where He says, “I do not demand concerning the world, but concerning those whom thou hast given me”?
AJG Yes, I think so. I suppose that, when we come to verse 9 and these verses, literally and primarily the Lord is referring to the twelve, but I think we can say that in principle it becomes extended to all that the Father has given Him.
ETS Would you say a word as to “Glorify thy Son,” in the first verse, and then “Glorify me,” in the fifth verse? I think we should like some help on that.
AJG Well, the first verse “glorify thy Son” is evidently the Lord desiring to be given the place He was to have, as in the position of supreme administration, in order that He might give the Spirit, and that the testimony might continue. Then He says in verse 5, “Now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was.” That is said in the hearing of the disciples - and, you may say, in our hearing - so that it is light in our souls. It is to confirm to us the sense of the full personal glory and equality in Deity of the Lord Jesus; and yet, as having become Man, He asks that He should be reinstated, if we could fittingly use that expression, in the glory that properly belongs to Him.
Ques Do you think that this is the Lord asking for re-entry to the glory laid aside in Philippians 2?
AJG I think so; it is well in these matters to keep our thoughts governed by the words Scripture uses. If we use the expressions of Philippians 2 and these verses, we are safe; but, if we attempt to put things into our own words, it may not be quite so accurate.
Rem The thought of “laying aside” is not just Scripture.
AJG No, it says, He “emptied himself.” But He did that by taking a bondman’s form.
WSS The note to the words “Along with” helps. It is “Along with” as to presence and place.
AJG Quite so.
HDT There is one thing certain - there can be no change in the Person.
AJG Exactly, and no change in what He is personally entitled to in the way of equality, and personal status, and so on, in the Godhead. Therefore any place of relative subordination He is seen in is what He has assumed voluntarily in the way of love, and has taken so that we might be brought to know and serve God.
AH Would it be safe to say that the change relates entirely to condition?
AJG Yes, I think so.
AB Would eternal conditions, therefore, be in mind in verses 4 and 5? As having completed the work given Him to do, He takes this place alongside the Father.
AJG I think so, and it is important that we should have this verse, so that the full personal glory of Christ should be before our hearts; and yet we know Him as a Man, and in the mediatorial position in which He stands.
HDT So that we are not said to behold this glory.
AJG No, we are not said to behold it, and yet it is something that we can know. It is just there as substance in our souls.
HDT So we cannot limit divine Persons to the places They have taken in the divine economy of grace?
AJG No.
HFR Can you say a little more as to the note already drawn attention to? There seems to be something very sweet about that.
AJG I do not know that one can add to it. It is just, I think, to impress us with personal quality and status. So that, if He is seen in a relatively second place, we should understand that He has taken that place in love, in order that the thoughts of God concerning man might be made good. But the place He has taken does not derogate from His personal glory and rights.
JSE Did not Mr. Taylor make some remark as to “subjection in equality”?
AJG Well, I do not remember it, but that would be good.
HDT Was that in connection with John 5 and 6?
AJG Quite so.
JSE Does that not obtain, as we approach this wonderful intercourse between the Father and the Son, that subjection on the Son’s part in no sense militates against the economy?
AJG No, it does not.
JSE Does not the word ‘beg’ in chapter 14, in relation to the Spirit being given, help us as we come into this chapter? It refers to intimacy or enjoyed equality, which could only, in relation to the Father, be seen in Christ Himself?
AJG Exactly. So that there is a note which distinguishes between the two words, “erotao” and “aiteo,” and it says that the word implying equality is never used in connection with the disciples in relation to the Father. But the Lord always used ‘erotao,’ the word implying equality, and He never used the word ‘aiteo,’ implying subordinate relationship.
JSE Does not that keep our minds safe?
AJG It does, indeed.
JMcM Would not the first verse in the gospel keep our minds right? It says “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” And then it says, “He was in the beginning with God.” Would that help us?
AJG Yes, it would.
JSE In regard to this word, “As thou hast given him authority over all flesh” - I was impressed with a remark yesterday morning as to the immediateness or the pronounced nearness of eternal conditions, because of the fact that Christ has entered upon final conditions Himself. Is this word “authority over all flesh” to set us as free as possible in relation to what is dominical, so that we might be all the more ready in relation to what is eternal?
AJG Well, I should think so. But I connected it in my mind simply with what immediately follows, “Thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal.” The Lord has rights over all, through redemption, but it is in view of bringing those who, in the Father’s purpose, are given to Him into things livingly.
HDT So that the Lord’s present position has a distinct bearing on the present testimonial position. He is not occupied exactly with eternity, but with eternal conditions known now.
AJG Exactly.
MPS Is that filled out by the Lord speaking on two occasions of the world knowing? “That the world may know that I love the Father” (chapter 14: 31), and then in this chapter, verse 23, “That the world may know that thou hast sent me.”
AJG I think so, so that it is to become apparent publicly that the Father is supreme in the counsels of grace, in what He does in regard to man; and the way that the Lord has taken, involving the shame of the cross, was all a question of His loving the Father.
EBL Would the Spirit of God give us eyesight to see the wondrousness of this Person, the Son of God? By the Spirit His glory shines before us, but you cannot express it. It is only the Spirit who can give you the sense of it.
AJG Quite so, and therefore the importance of reading the Scriptures over and over again, and especially the gospel of John, and reading them thoughtfully, because the Spirit will impress us with His glories as we do so. Now the Lord seems to be concerned about the Father’s Name. He says, “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world.” Then He says later that He had kept them in the Father’s name, and He prays the Father, “Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we.”
GAL The ground upon which He hands them over to the Father’s care is that they recognise the authority of His mission, and the character of His service.
AJG Well, quite so. I have often thought that verse 8, where the Lord says, “The words which thou hast given me I have given them and they have received them,” explains what we have in the first epistle of John as to the distinctiveness of the apostles’ fellowship, “Our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.” The Lord was receiving communications from the Father, and whatever communications He received from the Father, He passed on to the twelve, and it put them into a very privileged position. Their fellowship was with the Father and with His Son, Jesus Christ.
HFN Is there a contrast between the way the word is used later in the chapter, a word which involves the testimony, and this word which involves the whole range of the divine communication?
AJG Yes, there is, but the first great principle of preservation apparently is the Father’s name.
HDT What does that convey to you?
AJG If we think of a human family, a father, if he is what a father should be, exercises a great influence over the whole family. They are held in unity under the influence of the father. They learn from their father; and what their father disapproves of, they disapprove of; and what he goes in for, they go in for. I believe that the Lord, in keeping them in the Father’s name, would impress them with the knowledge of the Father, and they would love what He loved, and hate what He hated.
HDT I was wondering whether it was a little in line with John’s presentation of the family of God, in that sense.
AJG Yes.
EWC Would He be the expression of it in His life?
AJG I think so. So that, in the epistle, the young men are warned not to love the world, and so on, or the things that are in the world. The Father is in great contrast to the world, and if we are kept in the Father’s name it will preserve us from the world and all its influences.
SEE The Lord said, “Holy Father.”
AJG Yes, exactly.
SEE Is that in view of their preservation from the evil of the world?
AJG Exactly. He is stressing that the Father is holy, and hence, if we are kept in the Father’s name, it will preserve us in holiness.
WET Just what is suggested in the last sentence of verse 11, “That they may be one as we”?
AJG Well, unity is a great thought, and the importance and value of unity in testimony are a great factor in the Lord’s mind, because God is one, and hence, if the saints can be brought into unity and maintained in it they become a great testimony to God. So that the Lord says, “Keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we.” That is if all the saints are regulated in their outlook and desires by the Father, there will be perfect unity brought to pass.
GAL You see the expression of that unity typically in Genesis 22, the father and son moving together in the great matter before them. Twice it speaks of their going together, as though unity of mind and purpose in this great matter was laying the foundation of the sacrifice for the blessing of the universe.
AJG Yes, exactly, and you feel that, as you read John’s gospel especially, and all the gospels, there is complete unity of mind and purpose between the Father and the Son - not the slightest divergence - and that is to be brought to pass in us by being kept in the Father’s name. If there is disunity it is because there is more than one outlook, more than one will, more than one taste; but if it is the Father who governs the saints there will be unity.
AB Would dwelling conditions be in view?
In verse 21 it says, “Thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee.” Is that the Father dwelling in the Son, and the Son in the Father?
AJG I think so. I think the more we read of the gospel of John, the more we become impressed with what the Lord says, “I and the Father are one” (chapter 10: 30), absolute oneness in purpose and everything.
GAL I suppose it is clear that the power for this unity would lie in the Spirit?
AJG Exactly, although the Lord does not mention the Spirit, but it is implied in giving eternal life.
FMcE Is not this unity expressed in the saints in Acts 4: 32, “The heart and soul of the multitude of those that had believed were one”?
AJG That is it exactly, just one heart and one soul, and so in Romans 15: 6 it leads up to a remarkable point where it says, “That ye may with one accord, with one mouth, glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.” The saints are viewed even as having one mouth.
HDT Hence the importance of holding to the divine thought in the presence of the disunity that marks the public body.
AJG Exactly.
WSS I noticed in the letters of J.B.S., a day or two ago, that, in referring to the oneness here, he emphasised the oneness of thought of the Father and the Son.
AJG The more we consider the Lord, the more we see that He had one thought, and that was that God should be glorified.
HFN Does this unity really flow out of what we get in the eleventh verse: “And I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one as we”? Is that the mutuality of divine affections that existed between the Father and the Son, and that is really the basis for the unity?
AJG I think so, yes. It is remarkable. The Lord speaks of the name as given to Him, as though as Man here He lived in the constant enjoyment of all that the Father was to Him, so that He had the Father’s name as His own portion.
HDT Even at the cross anticipatively, in chapter 12: 28. He says, “Father, glorify thy name.”
AJG Quite so.
Ques When the Lord speaks of the unity, in verse 11, it starts, “And I am no longer in the world.” Is it to draw the attention of those among whom He was speaking to the special affection which flowed between Himself and the Father, and that He was actually in that position - no longer in the world - yet He was there with them, and He said He was going to the Father? Do we have to get outside of these conditions to understand the flow of affection between the Father and the Son?
AJG Well, I do not know that that is exactly what is in mind. Of course, it is quite true that eternal life is a heavenly, out-of-the-world condition of relationship and being - that is what you had in mind? - but I think the Lord was stressing that He was no longer in the world, He was leaving the world as the scene of testimony, and they were going to remain in it, and this prayer contemplates that position, that they were going to be left in the scene of testimony which He was leaving.
HAH Do you think oneness is a greater thought than unity? Is there something stronger about it?
AJG Well, it is just a question of expression. I think perhaps what you say is right, that oneness is a more absolute thought than unity, because unity may mean to some minds that persons had been disunited and were not united. I think “oneness” is a better word to use in regard to the Godhead than ‘unity.’ You see oneness in the Philippian epistle, thinking the same thing and having the same love; joined in soul.
AJG Yes, “Thinking one thing.”
WSS That was rather the point Mr. Stoney had in mind, and which I was referring to. Oneness might be the power of unity. Oneness of thought is what lies behind unity.
AJG I think it is a great thing to bear in mind that with the Godhead oneness is absolute. There is never the slightest divergence of outlook or affection or purpose between the Father and the Son and the Spirit.
TJD Is that emphasised in the two words “as we” - “that they may be one as we”? Is that not unique?
AJG I think so, “as we.” The disciples would have noticed it, I mean, as companying with the Lord and seeing how He spoke to them of the Father and how He testified publicly of the Father, they could not fail to be impressed with the oneness that existed between the Father and the Son.
WSS It makes the thought very wonderful, “That they may be one as we.”
AJG “As we,” exactly.
CEJ I was wondering if verse 22 would bear on what you are saying now, “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one as we are one”? It is an emphatic “We are one.”
AJG Well, exactly. The whole thought as before the Lord’s mind is the importance of unity or oneness among the saints, because it is a testimony that cannot be denied. You cannot get absolute oneness in the world, because you have differences of wills, minds and objectives, and so on. Where you have the Father, the Son and the Spirit in oneness, and the saints brought into accord with it, it is a testimony to God, because God is one.
WP In connection with the construction of the tabernacle, it was said that it was to be one whole. Was there a testimony to God at that time?
AJG Yes, that is important, because it was God’s dwelling place, and God must have conditions of love and unity if He is to dwell congenially; and hence it is oneness in two connections: first, the curtains coupled together by clasps of gold in loops of blue, that is oneness in the divine nature; and then the curtains of goats’ hair coupled by clasps of copper, that is oneness in refusal of evil.
WP I wondered also if it was encouraging that oneness entered into the journeying back, in Nehemiah. They gathered together as one man in that open place in the days of recovery.
AJG Well, quite so, and you get it also in 1 Chronicles 12, that all Israel was of one heart to make David king. So oneness of purpose produces oneness.
HFR As far as we are concerned, does this flow from the fact that there is one Lord and that we are all baptised by one Spirit into one body, and is practical unity maintained by following the one lead the Lord is giving?
AJG I am sure of that. So the Lord stresses that in chapter 10, where He says, “One flock, one shepherd,” and speaks of the sheep hearing the shepherd’s voice and following. That points, I have no doubt, to one authoritative ministry all over the world, and as we recognise the Shepherd’s voice and follow we enter into eternal life together.
JMcK Would you make a distinction between verse 11, “That they may be one as we,” and verse 23, “That they may be perfected into one”?
AJG I suppose the being perfected into one perhaps looks on to the final completion of the work of God, and its display in the holy city. What do you think?
JMcK I was thinking that in verse 11 it is a matter of the Father keeping them, and there can be no question on that line; but then is there not this working out by way of the dispensation, “That they may be perfected into one”?
AJG I am sure of that, and so it is seen in its full result in Revelation 21, where there are so many references to twelve. Twelve is the great idea of unity in love as seen in administration. So that you have “perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me.” He was sent by the Father, and God has come out in revelation in Christ, and the city that comes down will be the vindication of Christ. It will also be the wonderful revelation, in testimony to God, that God has been pleased to bring man into such a wonderful position of favour and glory.
GAL And yet it stands in relation to the “believing” in verse 21, does it not? That “knowing” is in the glorious day, but believing is now.
AJG Well, exactly, so that in one sense we should be concerned about now - the conditions “That the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
CG Is there a distinction between verses 21 and 23? One is testimony at the present moment, “that the world may believe,” and the other is “that the world may know,” which is manifestation?
AJG Well, yes, quite so. It is manifestation, but even that becomes a testimony. That is what one had in mind in the thought of testimony. We usually, of course, connect testimony with the present moment in contrast to the world of display.
EWC In the earlier verse?
AJG Yes.
HDT Have you in mind to say something about sanctification, as running alongside these things?
AJG It is a very important matter, because the whole point is the testimony, and the power of testimony. Unity constitutes that. In view of that we have to be sanctified and that is by the truth, because any corrupting influence coming in is sure to be disrupting. So we need to be sanctified by the truth.
HG Would what you are saying in this positive ministry give us sensitive feelings in regard to things that would be corrupting in character? I was thinking of trade unions, and every effort of the enemy to bring in the feature of oneness to conquer this testimony on God’s side.
AJG You mean that the enemy is endeavouring to bring in unity? He will always try to counter what God is doing with imitation, but it will not succeed. It may to a point, but never will succeed finally. The great point is that we should be sanctified by the truth, and we should understand that we are heavenly, and we are to learn it in Christ. He says, “I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth.”
HFN Is this really a kind of completion of the thought of sanctification? We are sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all; Hebrews 10: 10. Then we are twice said to be sanctified by the blood; Hebrews 10: 29, and Hebrews 13: 12. Would this be the completion of that? We are sanctified by the offering of the body of Jesus Christ, and then by blood. Would this be the full thought, and is not the Lord’s position, He sanctified Himself that they might be sanctified, most touching?
AJG It is, and it really contemplates subjective conditions in us, does it not, answering to the “sanctification of the Spirit” that is referred to in Peter’s epistle (1 Peter 1: 2)? But here the Lord presents Himself as setting Himself apart from this world altogether in taking His place in the Father’s presence. He sets out the truth as to ourselves, that we are heavenly, that “As he is, we also are in this world” (1 John 4: 17), and the Spirit would make that good in us, and we learn to hold ourselves as heavenly.
HDT From our side the sanctification would be progressive.
AJG It would.
HDT But on the other hand it is a most positive statement of fact, “They are not of the world, as I am not of the world.” It shows that sanctification is complete, and nothing can be added to it.
AJG Exactly. In Numbers 15, the people were told to have a lace of blue on their garments, and they were to look on it and remind themselves that they belonged to God. We do not need a ribbon of blue, for we can look on Christ, and remind ourselves that we are heavenly.
AH Does the apostle have that in mind in writing to the Corinthians, in chapter 6, “But ye have been washed, but ye have been sanctified, but ye have been justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God”?
AJG I think so. You get the two sides there. You get “In the name of the Lord Jesus,” which is really presenting the matter in its absoluteness, in Christ by reason of His death; and then “By the Spirit of our God,” which is really the subjective answer in us by the Spirit.
WS Does it not explain Hebrews 2: 11, “For both he that sanctifies and those sanctified are all of one”?
AJG Well, it is so. We are all of one.
HDT But that is not progressive there, is it?
AJG No, and it is not exactly occupying us with the thought of sanctification. It is just that there is the Sanctifier, and there are the sanctified ones. The great point is that there are sanctified ones who are all of one with the Sanctifier.
JSE Is there not an emphasis at this juncture on the great importance of sanctification, in that the Son prays to the Father again? We may read a lot of scripture as to the setting of the thing, but is there not some marked importance attaching to it, in that the Son introduces the matter into this rich and wonderful prayer?
AJG Exactly, and therefore do you not feel that we need to read over this prayer, quietly and meditatively, so that we become impressed with the Lord’s own thoughts, because in a sense this prayer, in the substance of it, covers all that was needed for the period of testimony, it is a remarkable compression of thought and desire, covering all that was needed for His own during the period of testimony.
EuR In verse 17 it is “Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth.” Are we conscious on occasions of this kind of their sanctifying character?
AJG I think we are, and therefore for that reason, even if for no other, it is a good thing to get to the meetings, because the word has a sanctifying power.
WSS In verse 17 how far do the words “the truth” go? Is it the full thought of what is revealed?
AJG I would think so.
EuR He emphasises it again in verse 19, “and I sanctify myself for them, that they” (’they’ is emphatic) “also may be sanctified by truth.”
AJG “By truth,” quite so. We have not very much time left, but we ought not to leave the chapter without referring to verse 24 and verse 26, because we come in verse 24 to the climax, you might say, of the Lord’s desires for His own.
AH Referring to verse 5 of this chapter, will you say a little as to the glory that the Lord speaks of here, and that we should behold it; verse 24?
AJG You are now referring to verse 24. The Lord desires that we should be with Him, “that they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me,” that is there is always that which is distinctive to Christ, although we are with Him. To Him, and to Him alone, belongs the glory of having become Man in order to effectuate all the counsels of God, and He has become in manhood the eternally loved Object of the Father, that we might be with Him in that position. But then He is the One who has brought it to pass, and in whom it subsists. We are brought into it in His life and with Him.
JSE The real joy of association would thus serve to enhance the distinction of His own place.
AJG It would indeed, and then it brings to light that divine counsels are involved in this. Divine counsel has conceived the idea of the incarnation, and the wondrousness of redemption, and the place the assembly is given in unique nearness to the Godhead; and we come into it in Christ, and behold His glory, but it is a glory that is always His and His alone.
HDT So that the link between the two eternities really lies in love.
AJG It does, indeed.
SEE As the brethren are viewed, whether as sons, or in whatever position through grace we have been brought into in association or union with Christ, there is always that which eternally attaches to Him in every circle, and the glory which will shine out from Him eternally.
AJG Quite so. In all things He has the pre-eminence. He is firstborn from among the dead, firstborn among many brethren, Head of the assembly, the only-begotten Son, in all these things He has the pre-eminence.
WSS Anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions; Psalm 45: 7?
AJG Yes.
ALRT In Canticles the speaker says, “The chiefest among ten thousand,” and the note says, “strictly ‘lifted up as a banner’.”
AJG Well, I think so.
GAL The Father’s voice on the holy mount confirms that in the minds of the disciples.
AJG Quite so. “This is my beloved Son, in whom I have found my delight,” 2 Peter 1: 17. That really enters into verse 26, too, because the Lord says, “That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them.” The disciples hearing that voice, and hearing such a voice, that is, hearing the very tones in which the Father spoke - were drawn into the current of the Father’s own affections for the Son. It is a most wonderful thing, showing how near to God we are brought, that we are made able to share the Father’s own affections for the Son, and the Son’s own affections for the Father, and the secret of both lies in the Spirit. We are possessed with the Father’s Spirit, and the Spirit of His Son.
JI Would you say a word as to “Where I am they also may be with me”? What is involved?
AJG It is what is distinctive of the assembly, I would say, that we are wherever Christ is as Man. Of course, there is that which attaches to His Person in the Deity which is beyond us.
HDT Is there a link between the third verse of chapter 14 and this, “Where I am ye also may be”?
AJG Quite so. The Lord is stressing, I believe, in these words in chapter 14 and in this chapter, the uniqueness of the place the assembly has as in His affections and as united to Him.
HFN Would each element in this chapter be brought before us as really entering into the great formation of the heavenly city? There are eternal life, and the thought of the Father’s name, and then the word and the great principle of unity, and then the realm of glory and divine love opened up to us; would they be great formative elements of that vessel as here in testimony, that will be displayed in glory?
AJG I would think so, and eternal life not only has great value as being a great preservative as in our place in testimony, but it also furnishes us with substance for the service of God. We become increasingly acquainted with the eternal conditions of life into which we are to be introduced.
GCS Is the thought in “I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God” that He still remains unique?
AJG Oh, surely. I think we all recognise the rightness of that, that the Lord does not say, ‘Our Father and our God.’ Everyone would recognise that it would be entirely out of place to say, ‘Our Father’ and to bring the Lord in with us. It is “My Father, and your Father,” and “My God, and your God.”
EBL He had the supreme place in the Father’s affections as Son. Does He give us the thought of the bosom of the Father where He dwells?
AJG Yes, quite so, that is what Scripture says, “The only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father,” John 1: 18.
SM In regard to verse 22, is the glory there that of sonship?
AJG Well, I think it amounts to that, as far as I understand it, “The glory which thou hast given me, I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one.” I think it means the glory of being here in the Father’s interests and considering for His pleasure, as Christ was, and that really is sonship. “The glory which thou hast given me, I have given them.”