CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (4)
CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (4)
John 18:1-11; John 18:33-40; John 19:1-5; John 19:25-42
AJG There is much that enters into these two chapters and especially what was alluded to just now in prayer - the power and dignity of the Lord’s movements into death, so that all has to give way before Him, answering very much to the ark in its going down to Jordan. What also comes to light finds its counterpart, I believe, at the present time, and that is the character of the testimony as bearing witness to the truth, and not so much the suffering side which we get in Matthew and Mark. Those gospels stress the suffering side of the testimony and the silence of Jesus, “He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and was as a sheep dumb before her shearers,” Isaiah 53: 7. That side of things is greatly stressed in Matthew and Mark, but this gospel rather stresses how much Jesus speaks, and how one and another are exposed as He speaks, so that it is rather the superiority of the testimony in the last days as bearing witness to the truth. At the same time suffering is brought in, of course, but suffering accepted in a dignified way, so that it says, “Jesus therefore went forth without, wearing the crown of thorn, and the purple robe.” There is much more that enters into the chapters, especially at the end of chapter 19, but it was these two lines of thought that were specially in one’s mind - the glory and dignity of the Son of God, as moving into death to establish every thought of God in power, and all having to give way before Him, and then the character of the testimony. While reproach is involved and accepted, it is the character of bearing witness to the truth. Therefore it is significant that in recent years we have seen this kind of thing brought about - testimony before tribunals and before employers, and so on. It is a testimony to the truth, and, while it involves reproach, that has to be accepted. The divine thought is that it is to be a testimony in dignity and power. First of all chapter 18 opens with, “Jesus, having said these things, went out with his disciples beyond the torrent Cedron, where was a garden,” and then verse 4 says, “Jesus therefore, knowing all things that were coming upon him, went forth,” so that the Lord is now moving in power and dignity. All the requirements of the testimony, we may say, have been covered in His prayer in chapter 17, and, speaking reverently, He left things in His Father’s hands, and now moves forward in all that the will of God entailed, knowing all that was to come upon Him.
HW Would it be a digression to ask, in view of the part that the torrent Cedron plays in the Old Testament, particularly in 2 Kings 23, why it is stated that the Lord went that way after these things?
AJG It was the way into a garden where He was wont to resort with His disciples, so I suppose it might perhaps indicate that there is a line of demarcation between the world and the disciples, the Lord’s own, in the Spirit; so that there is this garden into which He enters, although Judas comes into it with the band. There was this garden into which the Lord was accustomed to go with His disciples. It may suggest a retreat which is open to the saints, and which is entirely inaccessible in the ordinary way to the world; that there is the torrent Cedron to be crossed.
JSE Is there any suggestion in the fact that the very expression “torrent” links on with the thought of winter?
AJG Well, there may be. You mean that, as a rule, the rivers become swollen in winter?
JSE I understand that this word “torrent” here, stands by itself as implying the “winter flowing”; and the word “beyond” is over against what you said this morning. I was thinking about “Jesus ... went out.” I was wondering about this word “beyond,” and then going forth to meet the enemy. Is there something for us in this matter of the dignity of our movements in relation to the truth? Is it not essential to yield ourselves over to what is beyond the ordinary course of things, in order to derive strength and power to be in the truth and in the testimony in this dignity which you spoke of?
AJG That is somewhat what I had in mind. There does seem to be the suggestion of a garden and a retreat, and it is beyond the torrent Cedron, which I think speaks of the complete division there is between the saints and the world in the power of the Holy Spirit. It is true that it was intruded upon by Judas and those with him, but the normal thought is that there is this retreat, and I believe it is in view of the position in testimony and what is involved. The Lord would lead His own there first, as though that was to be their strength.
HDT And so today publicly the divine seclusion has been invaded, but the Lord retains the initiative at all times, and, if we are with Him, we shall.
AJG I think so.
HDT Would you say the spirit of betrayal was never more prevalent than now?
AJG Quite so, and it is remarkable that chapter 19 ends with the thought of a garden, “And in the garden a new tomb in which no one had ever been laid.” Although that is near, and it is near to the religious world, it speaks, I believe, of the place the Lord has in the affections of the saints in the fellowship of His death. That is what answers to the tomb, I think, as though the two conditions are put together in juxtaposition.
AH Does this link up with the last verse of chapter 16, the Lord seeming to greatly encourage our hearts by saying, “I have overcome the world”? Is this to lead us into this position of overcomers?
AJG I think so. One has often been impressed with what Mr. Raven said, that the Lord overcame by not surrendering. The idea of overcoming in Christianity is nothing heroic. It is just that you refuse to surrender anything that is right. You thus maintain what is due to God and by that means you overcome. It cost the Lord His death, and it may cost the saints their death, but at the same time they are not overcome - they are overcomers.
HDT Is the same principle seen in Philadelphia, “Hold fast what thou hast that no one take thy crown,” Revelation 3: 11? It is not exactly aggressive but holding to that which is committed.
AJG Exactly.
WSS As to what you have been saying about the dignity of the testimony as it comes before us in this gospel, in the passages you referred to, it says in verse 4, “Jesus therefore, knowing all things that were coming upon him.” Was that special to the Lord? I wondered if dignity was connected with the entering into the truth on the part of the saints.
AJG Well, if they are moving, and moving in the Spirit, I would say.
WSS That would be included in what I had in mind. So it is a question of intelligent persons.
AJG Yes, because if there is to be dignity in the things of God it can only be in the Spirit. The Spirit gives real dignity according to God. Natural dignity does not enter into God’s things.
WSS No, I was not thinking of natural dignity, but the wonderful light which is shining in this gospel, the truth shining into our hearts by the Spirit, would give that dignity, would it not?
AJG That is what I had in mind. We see dignity in the Person of the Lord and in His movements, but then the Spirit is here to bring about correspondence to that.
HDT So that what is presented to us is what is in Christ personally in a very peculiar way, and that is for our contemplation.
AJG Yes, quite so.
HDT That is perfect in itself as presented in Him, but the Spirit is operating to work out the same features in ourselves.
AJG What is stressed in the two chapters is how everything spoken before is fulfilled. It says in this chapter; “That the word might be fulfilled which he spoke, As to those whom thou hast given me, I have not lost one of them,” chapter 18: 9.
GAL Do you think we contemplate sufficiently the glorious movements of the Son of God as we have them portrayed here? He is entering into the domain of death and one feels how wonderful it is. In the book of Joshua, where the ark is referred to, seven distinct titles are mentioned, each one bringing out a feature of divine glory.
AJG Quite so, because there death was to be met in all its power. Jordan was overflowing all its banks.
EuR But the answer to that was “What ailed thee, thou sea, that thou fleddest? thou Jordan, that thou turnedst back?” Psalm 114: 5.
AJG Quite so. It is a note of triumph, the saints coming into the triumph of it.
HDT And whilst that is the case, we surely feel that the two thousand cubits needs to be maintained.
AJG I am sure of that. If it is a question of viewing the Lord going into death. He stands alone,
and we have to contemplate; but if it is a question of the incidents of the testimony, the bearing witness to the truth, and sustaining reproach, then we may be privileged to have a little part in that.
JGW Do we see that set forth in Stephen, especially in the end of Acts 7, after he had given his testimony, and they were enraged? It says of him, “Being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God,” and so on. In other words he was quite prepared, by the help of the Spirit, to face all that was coming upon him. Is that what you have in mind, that we might learn from that?
AJG Well, quite so, but the Lord moves in advance here and sets the example. While there is, of course, the question of actually facing death, there is what is unique to Himself. Others can follow only if He goes first. That is what Peter had to learn in chapter 13.
HFN Would Paul’s word to Timothy emphasise what you are saying? He refers to the Lord before Pontius Pilate, witnessing a good confession, and then the appeal follows to Timothy.
AJG I think so, and I believe that God is bringing that character of things into prominence at the close of the testimony. In bygone days saints have suffered as martyrs, the character of things in Matthew and Mark especially, but now at the close of the testimony what seems to be being brought into evidence is bearing witness to the truth, and the authorities being forced to hear the truth.
GAL So that you have in mind that one great consequence of contemplating the movements of the Son of God, is that we may overcome the world in the faith of the Son of God?
AJG Yes, quite so.
JSE What is the bearing of the last verse of chapter 14 on all this?
AJG “That the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father has commanded me, thus I do”?
JSE And then the next sentence, “Rise up, let us go hence.” Is there any connection with the Lord’s statement there, and what this chapter opens with?
AJG I had thought there was; but I think chapter 14 is engaged more with the inside side of things, the side of privilege, and so on; and the Lord saying “Rise up, let us go hence,” would mean that He was now going to conduct them into the sphere of testimony. But I think it is most helpful to bear in mind the difference between the presentation of things in the main in John’s gospel, as compared with the presentation in the synoptic gospels, especially Matthew and Mark, and to remember that John’s gospel is written last, and with the last days in view.
JSE And would you say that the thought of the truth is much to the front?
AJG Yes, the truth, but God also intends that before the history of this world is closed up there should be a full testimony to the truth.
HAH Are these words “I am” most significant in this section? Would they link with what the Lord had said before, “Unless ye shall believe that I am (he), ye shall die in your sins,” and “Before Abraham was, I am,” John 8: 24, 58?
AJG Well, I suppose they do; but, at the same time, the fact that “he” is put in brackets, “I am (he)” shows that in the translator’s mind the “he” was necessary to give the true sense. So that I suppose in the main the Lord is saying “I am (he),” that is “I am the One whom you seek,” but you cannot help feeling that underlying it there is the reminder that He is the “I am.”
HFN Is not verse 37 important, where the Lord says, “I have been born for this, and for this I have come into the world, that I might bear witness to the truth”? Is that not the only time that John refers to the Lord as born, and for this particular reason, that He might bear witness to the truth?
AJG That is very striking, that He was to bear witness to the truth, and was born into the world for that very purpose. And then at the same time a testimony was to be borne in a suffering way, so that His kingdom is not of this world. He says, “My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my servants had fought that I might not be delivered up to the Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.”
AB Would the allusion to His kingdom be a guide for the saints, for the subjects of His kingdom; their deportment and conduct being outlined in that sense?
AJG I think so. An allusion was made just now to Stephen, and he showed that he was really of Christ’s kingdom, in that he bore testimony in the Spirit of the heavenly One. Although the testimony he had to bear was a testimony in condemnation, yet the spirit of the man was in accord with heaven.
JSE You have remarked about the Lamb led to the slaughter in the pressure gospels, and the three hours’ darkness being emphasised there, but now what you are alluding to is the great matter of the truth, and, as He gives emphasis to that, the Spirit keeps the item of darkness out of the setting. I wondered if there was any connection between the truth and the light in His mind, in that He keeps the darkness out. I was thinking of the Psalm, “Send out thy light and thy truth,” Psalm 43: 3.
AJG Well, I think in the earlier presentation of the truth, as in Matthew and Mark, what souls need to be established in is how God’s righteousness and holiness have been vindicated, and therefore the atoning sufferings of Christ, and all that entered into them, have to be enlarged upon; but now, when we come to the closing presentation in John’s gospel, what is more before us is the glory of divine love, and the power in which it moves. Atonement, of course, is understood to be necessary, but it does not need to be enlarged upon. So that when we come to Solomon’s day, if we enter the temple, all that was seen was gold. Love fills the whole realm, but later on you find that Rehoboam departs from God, and the king of Egypt comes up and takes away much of the treasure, and then it says that Rehoboam made shields of bronze instead of shields of gold, as though he had to go back to the basic idea of how the question of sin was dealt with, because he had got away from the sense of love.
HDT And in the days of recovery, in Ezra, do you not get the two things put close together there? It speaks of “Two vessels of shining copper, precious as gold” (Ezra 8: 27), as though in certain circumstances that principle is as valuable as anything else.
AJG Yes, indeed.
HG How does Peter’s action fit in with this, cutting off the ear of one who would be unable to hear the witness to the truth?
AJG The answer of the Lord is remarkable, when He says, “The cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?” It is quite a unique reference. In Matthew He rebukes Peter. He says, “All who take the sword shall perish by the sword,” and then again, “How then should the scriptures be fulfilled”; but here He says, “The cup which the Father has given me, shall I not drink it?” as though He would move as governed by His Father’s will, and He has accepted the cup from His Father’s hand.
HDT Speaking reverently there was quite a mutual understanding between Them.
AJG Well, quite so.
HDT Do you not think that that is really the support of the saints at the end, and understanding of the divine mind and what it has before it, better knowledge of divine Persons Themselves - rather than a mere mental grasp of an outline of the truth?
AJG Yes, surely.
AB I was wondering if you had anything further to say in regard to the bearing witness to the truth. You were speaking of the Lord as the model in the way of witnessing.
AJG Well, only that it is so marked here, for instance, in verses 20 and 24. It says in verse 19, “The high priest therefore demanded of Jesus concerning his disciples and concerning his doctrine. Jesus answered him, I spoke openly to the world; I taught always in the synagogue and in the temple, where all the Jews come together, and in secret I have spoken nothing.” He is exposing the unreality of the high priest. All these were things of common knowledge. Then one of the officers gave a blow on the face to Jesus, saying, “Answerest thou the high priest thus? Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil; but if well, why smitest thou me?” He is speaking to the conscience, the truth shining out in all these remarks.
EuR I think Mr. Taylor has spoken of this statement of the Lord’s, as to being born for this, to bear witness to the truth, as shining forward on the children of the saints, born in the ranks of the testimony. They are really born to bear witness to the truth.
AJG I was thinking of that myself, although in a way I felt almost afraid to bring it in, because one feels that the Lord stands by Himself in these scriptures. Of course, at the same time, we are born of God, and that means that there is a generation here in whom the truth, what God is in His nature and moral features, is intended to shine out.
EuR I thought it emphasised more definitely to us each one as to what we are here for, if we really let the light of this shine forward upon ourselves.
AJG I believe that is very important. We should understand that that is exactly what we are here for, and the only purpose really for which we are here is that the truth may shine out. We have been born of God for that very purpose.
HFN Is there in relation to the gospel of John a development in regard to the truth? For instance, in chapter 8 the truth is brought in in order to set us free; and then you get what you were speaking of this morning in regard to the sanctifying power of the truth; and now we come to the obligation that rests upon the saints, as to this thought of bearing witness to the truth. Is there any development in it?
AJG I think so. We must be liberated ourselves by the truth first, before we can have any place in the testimony; and we must be sanctified by the truth, if we are to be maintained in the testimony according to its true characteristics.
JMcK Is it significant that it says in 1 John 4: 4, “Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world”? Would that be in relation to bearing witness to the truth, more than to the support or confirmation of the individual?
AJG I should think so. Say a little more.
JMcK Well, you were stressing a little the difference between the testimony in the synoptic gospels and in John. It seems to me very important that we should understand it. That would involve for us the knowledge of the Holy Spirit in His varied relations with us.
AJG Yes, I am sure.
JMcK So that the very greatest aspect as to the testimony would be in this expression in 1 John 4: 4, “Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world.” So that there would be no gainsaying what the Spirit was supporting.
AJG Exactly. I think it is a most assuring thought that, in that way, the Spirit is here in charge of the whole position, and especially of the testimony; so that it says “The Spirit is the truth.” The more we learn to yield ourselves to the Spirit, and bring in His power in the intelligence that He affords, the more we shall find that we are in the truth, the truth as understood by us and set out in testimony.
WSS There seems to be something of outstanding importance in what you have been saying about the character of the witness in the closing days, and that we should understand that there is so much that is untrue connected with the name of Christ in Christendom in these closing days. Would that enter into the need for this character of witness, bearing witness to the truth?
AJG Yes, and then do you not think that from the time that Satan gained the ear of the woman in the garden it is the truth that has been in contest, and that position has got to be met? Before the assembly is taken out of the scene, there has got to be a full testimony to the truth.
FWK Is that seen in Acts 1, where the Lord speaks of His own as being witnesses both in Jerusalem and to the end of the earth, the completeness, the full thought of it?
AJG Yes, quite so.
HDT When you speak of the truth in that comprehensive way, have you in mind the revelation of God and what is before Him?
AJG Yes, especially the truth as to God, because the suggestion which the serpent made to the woman, and then what he said right out, was that God was not to be depended upon, that He was withholding something good and that His word was unreliable. There was a direct challenge to the truth as to God, and now that challenge is to be met in the saints as a matter of testimony.
AJEW John says to the young men in the first epistle, “The word of God abides in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one,” 1 John 2: 14. Is that the truth prevailing against the enemy’s power, in the saints?
AJG Well, it is. I suppose they were established in the way of intelligence; that is to say that they were sound in the truth as a matter of teaching, and were not likely to be carried away by anti-Christian teaching, but then their danger was the world, and if we are overcome by the world we do not bear testimony to the truth.
GCS Why is it that it says in Timothy that Jesus witnessed a good confession before Pontius Pilate and not before the priests?
AJG Well, the priests had really no right. They were thoroughly wicked, but Pontius Pilate was authoritatively established of God, and the Lord treats him with a certain respect. Indeed, in the next chapter Pilate says, “Speakest thou not to me? Dost thou not know that I have authority to release thee and have authority to crucify thee? Jesus answered, Thou hadst no authority whatever against me if it were not given to thee from above,” that is He recognised him as being in a position that was ordained of God, “On this account he that has delivered me up to thee has the greater sin.”
JSE Does this bear practically on present circumstances? I do not know whether you have experienced it, but one has observed very little reference to this section of the scripture, in the enquiries of the authorities at tribunals.
AJG I had not noticed that, but it is interesting.
JSE It seems to me in a simple way that it is the one ground upon which the Spirit would give us moral success before men, because, as you said, it stands specifically related to bearing witness to the truth.
AJG So it is evident that, according to this gospel, Pilate was affected, and would have saved Jesus if he could. He was influenced by the people, but the testimony the Lord bore to him was of such a character that his conscience at any rate was awakened.
AH What seems to overwhelm him, according to John’s record, is “If thou releasest this man, thou art not a friend to Caesar.” Is it the world that becomes a test?
AJG Yes, quite so.
GCS Has it not been the government that has brought in the relief of conscientious objectors? It is from the authority and not from the religious people, is it not?
AJG Oh, it is, surely.
GCS I was supporting what you were saying as to the authorities in this world that God has set up.
AJG Yes.
AH Would you say a word with regard to John’s record as to where he went himself, and his action in bringing in Peter? I was wondering whether you were thinking of what you remarked earlier as to the testimony being to the authorities that were established of God, and of what is said in chapter 12, where Jesus left the religious system and went away and hid Himself from them. Has that any bearing on the failure that occurs here?
AJG It seems to me that John is making known that it was he who brought Peter in. The other evangelists do not record this. I think he is doing his best to take the blame on himself, to some extent at least. I think it is love in John that is seeking to modify things for Peter by acknowledging that he had a certain responsibility in bringing him into a place for which he had not faith.
HDT So that Peter and John are together. Mary Magdala knew where to find them - which shows that love was effective; and they were together in the beginning of Acts, too. It shows that love operating holds persons together.
AJG Yes, quite so.
APA How do you regard the close of Acts 16, in the light of what you were saying as to the dignity in testimony?
AJG Paul saying “Let them come themselves and bring us out,” do you mean?
APA Yes.
AJG Well, it was a testimony to their conscience as to what was right, a testimony to righteousness.
JSE And they respected it.
AJG Yes, they did. It was a question, I suppose, of making them feel the power of the testimony. The jail had been shaken to its foundations by an earthquake, and the apostle would confirm it by insisting on what was righteous.
JSE Does that help us in relation to what was said, you remember, in the meetings on Philippians in 1936? It was powerfully remarked that there was no religious obstruction when Paul and Silas came into Europe. So that it seems that directly the truth was brought to bear on the consciences of those officials, they respected the position that Paul and Silas were in, and that they were wrongfully imprisoned, and they came and brought them out. But in this chapter that we are reading, have we not the extremeness of the hostility of what is religious, and their making, so to speak, a cat’s paw of the secular power to gain their ends?
AJG Yes, we have.
AST Is it not a great encouragement that the scripture says that nothing can be done “against the truth, but for the truth” (2 Corinthians 13: 8), showing that the truth itself always prevails?
AJG I think so. So that if Jesus is made to wear a crown of thorns and a purple robe, it is but a final exposure of what man is. The Son of God has been presented to them in testimony, and they treat Him in that way, and therefore there is a complete exposure of what man is. In chapter 19, verse 17, it says “and he went out, bearing his cross, to the place called place of a skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha; where they crucified him.” That is that the matter is complete, the exposure is complete. It is the place of a skull, that is what man is morally, as empty and as hideous as a skull, and there He is crucified; so that that man may be entirely removed judicially in judgment, and the way opened for divine love to come out.
HDT It would almost seem from this account that the Lord chose the place to go. I do not know whether that is going too far, but it seems as though it is according to divine arrangement that Golgotha was the place.
AJG I am sure of that. It is significant that all the four evangelists mention this - the place of a skull. There are not very many details that are recorded in all four gospels, but this is one of them.
HFR Would you say something as to the superiority of Jesus in these passages? You referred to it in your opening remarks. Even in the verse you quoted - verse 5 of chapter 19 - it says, “Jesus therefore went forth without, wearing the crown of thorn,” and then in verse 17 it says, “He went out, bearing his cross.”
AJG I thought that was in keeping with the presentation of Christ as the Son of God. He is moving in dignity and power, and, in a sense, no one can stop Him. In other gospels He may be led as a lamb to the slaughter, but here He moves out in His own greatness, accepting the reproach fully, and going to the place of a skull where He was crucified, but it was the Son of God moving there.
FVW Going back to your earlier remarks, that before the end of the dispensation there will be witness borne to the truth, do you think it will be specially to the secular authorities? I was thinking of the fact that so much is said in the latter part of Acts as to Paul’s defence, which is before the secular authorities.
AJG Yes, I think so. God has established them in their position and I think He pays a certain respect to them there. In fact the Roman Empire has had a certain regard for the moral law of God, so that Roman law is largely based on the Mosaic law, and I believe God would give them a certain respect and a certain advantage in that way, by a testimony being borne to them in power.
GCS And He uses them as one of the powers to restrain evil.
AJG Yes. He does.
FVW I was thinking a little on that line, that they have been used to afford circumstantial protection to the saints. It would seem that there is a moral obligation that this testimony should be rendered to them before the finish.
AJG Yes, and, of course, their final rejection of it completes the exposure of the world, so that there is a moral basis laid in the testimony borne for the final judgment of the world.
EBL I was thinking that in the last chapter Jesus was standing but in this chapter Jesus is walking, and that is the way in which John Baptist draws attention to Him.
AJG Well, in the main, the Lord is presented as in movement in John’s gospel, and we are to follow. That is the great line in this gospel, that the Lord is in movement and we are to follow Him in His movements, and as we follow Him in His movements there is a great opening up of the truth before us.
HDT In that way Pilate’s word is made to serve, “Behold the man.” It must strike a chord in every heart.
AJG Exactly, and then he says, “Behold your king,” and the Man underlies the king, does it not?
HDT It does, indeed. It says in Isaiah 32: 1, “Behold, a king shall reign in righteousness, and princes shall rule in judgment,” and then immediately it follows, “And a man shall be as a hiding-place from the wind.”
AJG Yes.
AWT John, in his second epistle, says, “for the truth’s sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity.” Is that beautiful confirmation of the vital link there is between the truth and those maintained by the Spirit? For the Spirit is with us and will be with us to eternity.
AJG I thought that. I believe that is really an allusion to the Spirit, “for the truth’s sake which abides in us and shall be with us to eternity.”
AH Would that explain the verse in chapter 18, “Every one that is of the truth hears my word”? It is a striking expression. He does not say ‘Every one born of God ... ‘, but “Every one that is of the truth ... “, as if there has been that inward operation of the truth by the Spirit of truth, producing the ear that hears. “He that has ears to hear, let him hear,” the Lord says; Luke 8: 8.
AJG Yes, I think that is good.
EBL Is the emphasis on the “the”? “Behold the man.” It is the only time it is put like that, and yet it is the Man.
AJG Well, quite so. It is a remarkable thing that God ordered that Pilate should thus speak, “Behold the man.”
HFN Does not James refer to the fact that we have been begotten by the truth? Peter says “Born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding word of God,” 1 Peter 1: 23. John says that we have been born of God; but does not James emphasise that we have been born of the truth?
AJG Yes, “According to his own will begat he us by the word of truth, that we should be a certain first-fruits of his creatures,” James 1: 18.
JSE Could I come back for a moment to this enquiry of Mr. T., and your reply to it, as to the allusion to the Spirit in the second epistle of John? Were you thinking of the statement in the first epistle that the Spirit is the truth?
AJG Yes, I think so. The truth is not exactly doctrine, although the doctrine keeps it in our minds, within proper limits, but really substantially the Spirit is the truth.
HDT It involves formation in the saints, does it not?
AJG It does involve that, and it involves intelligence, too, in the Spirit; so that, if we really learn to move in the Spirit, we shall be safe, and we shall never go to extremes or anything of that sort.
HDT May I ask, in regard to this passage, whether you have anything in mind in relation to the stress on the Nazaraean, as bearing on the present moment?
AJG Only that the two things go together, the power and dignity of the testimony, but the reproach connected with it.
HDT And the full acceptance of it.
AJG Yes.
ALRT In verse 20 it says, “For the place of the city where Jesus was crucified was near.” Would that suggest that although it is the secular power that is acting here, yet the religious centre is not far away? They are really sympathetic with the antagonism that is expressing itself.
AJG I think that is so. I think that appears again at the end of the chapter, that we are very near in our position in testimony to the religious system, and that is hostile.
HFN Would you say a word in regard to this unique reference to those who were standing by the cross of Jesus? Is that the love that really marks the public position today?
AJG I am glad you brought that in, because it is really what should mark us. It is our position, and these women are mentioned as in that position, the mother of Jesus, and her sister, Mary, the wife of Clopas, and Mary of Magdala, showing that it is a position that is maintained in the power of affection, in outward weakness but it is maintained.
HFN Would there be something in the fact that these relationships are brought in? The first one is a woman who is a mother, the second is a sister, the third is a wife, and, I suppose, we might bring in Mary of Magdala as the Lord’s greatest lover. Would these relationships enter into the affections that would be prepared to take up the shame and scorn of such a position?
AJG I think that is right. It is stressing the idea of affection as underlying the position. I suppose this standing by the cross of Jesus is to work out especially in the way we go on in our meetings, in the refusal of the first man and so on, and the full committal to the Spirit, for it is only thus that the cross is fully stood by.
HDT Would all having the same name have some significance?
AJG You mean that the name signifies the element of bitterness?
HDT I wondered whether it was the culmination of wilderness exercises. We start with Marah as soon as we come out of the world, and as going on with God we are thus confirmed. Thus there is a kind of affinity between us, on the ground of experience and knowledge of God.
AJG Quite so.
JSE Does this thought of standing by involve what is deliberate, rather than being forced into it?
AJG It does, and you wonder sometimes that there are not more saints prepared to take the path of separation, but it is just that personal love for Christ, and the desire to be pleasing to Him, and to be governed by His will, are not sufficiently developed.
JSE Is it because we focus more on the crown of thorns, and leave the purple robe a little out of our view? For is it not a fact that it is not taken off in this gospel?
AJG Quite so. You mean that, while there is a crown of thorns, and the reproach suggested in it, there is real dignity in the suffering position?
JSE Yes, and the testimony to His universal title is carried right through, and they stand by that.
AJG Quite so.
AH Is Paul giving expression to this truth, when he says in 1 Corinthians 2: 2, “I did not judge it well to know anything among you save Jesus Christ, and him crucified”? In principle is he standing by the cross amongst the brethren?
AJG That is exactly the position, as I understand it, and it is really on that basis that the truth of the local assembly is developed. So that this standing by the cross of Jesus is to be worked out in all our localities in the definite refusal of the first man, and the bringing in entirely of all that is of Christ by the Spirit.
AB Is that why there is the allusion to John as standing by in love? Is he viewed as one who is particularly reliable in these circumstances?
AJG I think so. One’s impression is that from chapter 13 to the end of the gospel, except in the last chapter where he is amongst the seven who go fishing, John stands for the work of God which will go right through. Peter stands more for the public responsible position, marked by failure, but finally recovered.
HFN Is there a great challenge to us in relation to the fact that the Lord can commit His mother to John? Does not the Lord always commit to us what we are equal to as the fruit of the work of God?
AJG I think so, but what have you in mind in relation to His mother? What is your application to that?
HFN I suppose His mother would really represent the Lord’s earthly interests. I was only thinking of the general principle of how the Lord commits things. For instance, the body of Jesus is committed into the hands of two disciples, but His mother is committed into the hands of John.
AJG Yes, that is very interesting.
JMcK I was going to ask, as to this reference to the cross of Jesus, whether it is distinctive in that it presents the Lord as still in control. Everything is at the disposition of love.
AJG That is very striking in this chapter. Everything is in the Lord’s hands, and it says, “After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now finished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, says, I thirst.” That is that there was just one scripture remaining unfulfilled, and in order that it should be fulfilled Jesus says, “I thirst.” Then it says, “When therefore Jesus had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit.” It is a most significant presentation of the Son of God carrying everything through in His own power and deliberateness. It was the final act of bitterness on the part of man, and the Lord accepts it. He would accept fully all that was involved in the exposure of man, but all was out now and He bows His head and gives up His spirit. All that man is is fully exposed. He enters into death and lays down His life that the history of that man might now be ended.
GCS He is incapable of ministering refreshment to God. The Lord said to the woman, “Give me to drink,” and that is only possible by the Spirit.
AJG Quite so.
HFN Would you say a word, before we close, in relation to the present understanding of the piercing of the Lord’s side, and the emphasis on the fact that it is the disciple whom Jesus loved who is the one who bears witness to this fact? We have a presentation - a first-hand witness to it. Would you say how that bears on what has occupied us this afternoon?
AJG Well. John makes a great deal of the importance of a credible witness, and I suppose that is an element in the truth. What have you in mind?
HFN It was just that what is said in John’s epistle is brought in with regard to witness. What you have been presenting to us this afternoon is the witness with regard, to the truth, and now there is this special witness with regard to the disciple whom Jesus loved, and it is taken on by the Spirit and incorporated in the epistle.
AJG Exactly. It is a most touching effect of the death of the Son of God that expiation has been made, and the basis laid for redemption; and there is moral cleansing in His death, too, so that we may be brought in in His love into the relationships which God has in mind for us.
JMcK Would it be right to link the word which says, “Immediately there came out blood and water,” with the same kind of movement that belongs to the Son of God as going forth? I was thinking of this wonderful demonstration, the water and the blood came out. It was God’s answer, was it not?
AJG Yes, I think so, and everything is under divine control, so that they are not allowed to break the legs of Jesus. That is a most wonderful presentation, and then there is this wanton act on the part of the soldier so that there should be this testimony to the efficacy of the death of His Son, and “immediately there came out blood and water.”
HDT The blood was really required to be shed.
AJG It was.
HFR Has it in mind the removal of the man?
AJG Yes, it has, and the making propitiation in the blood.
HDT I was going to ask whether there was a reference to the passover in the fact that not a bone of Him was to be broken.
AJG I think there is. It is Exodus 12 which is alluded to, and one of the Psalms.
HDT I wondered whether that would keep a certain balance in our souls, as we are in the presence of what we have here, and the exalted character of the truth is brought to bear upon us. What we have recorded is simple and elementary, and yet the death of Christ is the sacrificial basis for all God’s operations, and we are confronted with that here.
AJG I am sure that is right.
HDT I wondered whether it would help us to be simple. We have tended to keep the presentation of the truth in compartments, without much connection, but Scripture often brings in something which seems at the moment to be extraneous. I wondered whether it would keep us flexible in our minds.
AJG I am sure what you say is right and important. I was wondering, too, whether there was any suggestion in the fact that it is at this point that the Spirit of God stresses the thought that not a bone of Him shall be broken. It perhaps suggests to us that the whole structure of the truth is to be maintained. No part of it is allowed to be broken.
AED It alludes to righteousness, does it not? “Not a bone of him shall be broken” refers to Jesus Christ as the righteous One. Although He met every moral claim for God, He is there the righteous One.
AJG That is true undoubtedly, and His body, His personal body, was precious to God, and in that sense you might say God would not allow a bone to be broken; but I believe there is a wider thought, and it is that the Son of God has come in to carry through every thought of God in power, and we are to take on the idea that not a bone of His is to be broken, and the whole structure of the truth is to be carried through and maintained.
EuR He had said, “On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have authority to lay it down and I have authority to take it again. I have received this commandment of my Father,” John 10: 17, 18. That would emphasise what you were saying as to every iota of this being under divine control.
AJG Exactly, and all in the hands of the Lord, so that He delivers up His spirit. Having entered into manhood, He would not do that without authority from His Father. He had authority to do it, and He delivered up His spirit.
GCS Would you say a little as to “After these things ... “ the effect on Joseph and Nicodemus?
AJG You get immediately the thought of the fellowship of Christ’s death brought in, and a very dignified fellowship it is. It is the fellowship of God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, and you get these two men, men of some distinction, moving under the impulse of the death of Christ in this wonderful fellowship. It is the body of Jesus which they took. It is really the fellowship of Christ’s death in the dignity of it.
GCS They move as being liberated from what is social and what is religious.
AJG Yes, quite so.
JGW May I ask a question as to the repeated reference to the Scriptures, entering into the chapter we have been reading? Has that any bearing upon our witness, that we should be acquainted with the Scriptures, and bring in the Scriptures as the authority for the maintenance of what we say with regard to the truth?
AJG Well, I think that is right. It is important because the Scriptures carry their own authority, provided they are used in the Spirit. That is the important thing - that they are used in the Spirit.