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ETERNAL LIFE (3)

AJG We are seeking to get help together on the matter of eternal life. We had it before us yesterday from John’s gospel, and particularly noted the importance of active faith on our part - the thought of believing is constantly brought in in relation to eternal life. So that the end of the gospel says that John recorded the signs that he did record, in order that we might “believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing we might have life in his name,” John 20: 31. So that eternal life includes, as has been said, a sphere of affections and relationships and interests which are all involved in the name of “the Christ the Son of God” and lie outside this scene, though to be known while we are in it and to be entered upon in the Spirit, and eternal life was what was in the mind of God when He gave His only-begotten Son.

But now, when we come to the epistle, John tells us that he writes his epistle in order that we may know that we have eternal life, not simply have it before us as an idea, but prove the reality of it, because Christianity is nothing if it is not life, known in power. The importance of that becomes more and more evident as departure from the truth marks the public position, that the truth is supported in life, not by the maintenance of correct doctrine, though that is important in its place, but it is supported in life. Hence the writer of the epistle, John, is stressing now the reality of things in the saints; indeed in chapter 2 (the part we did not read) he says, “which thing is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light already shines.”

So that he begins by reverting to “that which was from the beginning,” and he maintains that all through his epistle, the importance of our learning what was from the beginning and having our thoughts governed by it, not allowing any departure from it or addition to it, but understanding that Christianity in its true features was set out in the beginning, that is in Christ as Man here, and that is to give its character to it. So that he speaks of the “Word of life,” referring to what came under the notice of the apostles in the pathway of Jesus here - “The word of life” - that is a living expression in a Man of what life is according to God, and he says, “We have seen and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us.”

GAL Does it not, therefore, greatly help to see set forth in Jesus in all His relationships down here in manhood, just exactly that kind of life that was in the mind of God for us from eternity?

AJG Yes, I think so. Not that eternal life covers all the activities of the Lord as Man here, because of course there is the way He filled out the details of ordinary human life in perfection as typified in the manna, and there is what He was in public testimony before men, meeting hostility and so on, but eternal life was really the spring, so to speak, of His movements.

GAL I was thinking of what the word says, “and we have seen, and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us.”

AJG Yes, quite so, they could take account of it, that all His springs, you might say, were in the Father, and His life was lived in relation to the Father.

EJH Is it the thought of what was seen there substantially in Christ? So that it says, “that which was from the beginning.”

AJG Yes. I think that is most important, it is not quite the presentation of the Lord in His Person (though of course that is involved), but rather the substantiality of what was there, it was the “Word of life.” The gospel presents Him as the Word, the One in whom personally the mind of God is conveyed to us, but the epistle presents Him as “the Word of life,” the One in whom life in its substantiality and characteristics were set out.

HDT What difference would there be between this and the statement of the apostle, “we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father”? That is more the personal side, I know, but would you draw a distinction for us between the two sides?

AJG I do not know that one can say much in the way of drawing a distinction. I think we can see that “we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father” (John 1: 14) is stressing what is unique and beautiful in the sense of a relationship of love, and it was unique to Him, too, “A glory as of an only-begotten with a father.” At the same time, I think that all enters into this thought of the “Word of life.” It was with the Father, that is to say, as I understand it, it was the character of the life that was lived in relation to the Father.

HDT So that that in itself gave rise to all the Lord’s activities in the testimony and His movements amongst men, the spring of it all was, may we say reverently, His life with the Father.

AJG That is what I thought. So that there is a verse at the end of one of the later chapters in Luke’s gospel that by day He was teaching in the temple and by night he went out and was abroad on the mount of Olives, as though suggesting that the life of the Lord here was made up of those two things - the public position of testimony amongst men on the one hand, but then, on the other, that which gave it its character and provided its support was what it was with the Father in secret.

GAL Must that not always be the case in any service or ministry? Is not what lies behind in our relationships with God much more important in a certain sense than the ministry itself, because if that is missing the ministry is worthless?

AJG Exactly. Then it is not given to all to minister, that is a matter of sovereignty, but it is given to all to have part in life.

WMcK Does the epistle, in that sense, refer us back to the gospel and underlie the importance of our contemplation of Christ as seen in the gospels?

AJG Yes, I am sure it does. So that in the passage we read in chapter 2 the fathers are addressed as having known Him that is from the beginning, and that being characteristic of them, the apostle did not find it necessary to say any more to them, save what he says to all the saints, “and now, children, abide in him.”

ECM Does the thought of full maturity connect with the fathers and would it involve our being established in the full revelation of God?

AJG Yes, I think so, but maturity which consists in this thought that they have seen and know Him that is from the beginning. They kept Christ before their hearts as the standard of Christianity and they were not prepared to allow any deviation from it.

ECM So that we need to have an apprehension of Christ as He is presented objectively in the gospels?

AJG Yes, exactly.

WHL What does “from the beginning” mean? It is “in the beginning” in the first verse of John’s gospel.

AJG Yes, but this is not that. This is the beginning of Christianity, so that it begins with Christ as Man here. That is what is in mind, it is from the beginning. The whole point in the epistle is that, in the days in which the apostle was writing, there were many Antichrists and many who were bringing in what was false; hence the apostle insists that the saints must keep before them what was from the beginning, that is, what appeared in Christ as Man here as the expression and standard of Christianity according to God’s thoughts.

HDT There is no advance on that, is there?

AJG There is no advance or development. The whole thing was there in perfection in Christ.

DMcI Is that the force of “has been manifested”?

AJG Yes, it was specially manifested to the twelve. They seem to have had a special place, and it is given to them through John to pass it on to us, so that he says, “our fellowship,” referring to what was peculiar to the apostles, “our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son. Jesus Christ,” verse 3.

DMcI But the intent is that we should come, in fellowship with them, into the gain of the manifestation, is it not?

AJG Yes, surely.

HDT Is it not a matter of what reaches us in this period of faith on the ground of testimony? But the actual manifestation was direct.

AJG It was. It was direct to the apostles and hence we have to see that John, as one of the twelve, has his place with us, and that we pay attention to what he says.

EJH Would it be only the apostles who could say, “our eyes” and “our hands”?

AJG I do not know whether it can be limited to the apostles, because I suppose Mary, the mother of Jesus, and Mary Magdalene and others would have got some of these impressions as well; only the apostles were the divinely appointed ones to bear testimony to these things.

FVW Would the two in John 1 who left John and went and saw where the Lord dwelt and abode with him that day, would they have seen a little of eternal life?

AJG Yes, I expect so.

HDT But when it came to testimony, the stipulations were pretty stringent, at the end of Acts 1, as to the one who should fill the apostle’s place. It was not anybody in that sense. Is there not something peculiarly special about the twelve and they had a distinctive part? We come into it on the ground of testimony.

GAL Is that not clearly seen by the Lord’s own words at the end of John 15, speaking of the Holy Spirit coming from with the Father and His testimony and then it says, “Ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning”? That is the testimony we have here, is it not?

AJG Yes, it is. I think there is a verse in John 17 that makes it clear, that is what the Lord says in verse 8. He is speaking to the Father about His disciples and He says, “the words” (divine communications) “which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them,” John 17: 8. So the Lord was constantly receiving communications from His Father and He passed them on to the twelve. The twelve were in that privileged place that the communications that the Lord received from His Father He passed on to them, and you can understand the apostle saying, “our fellowship is with the Father and his Son Jesus Christ.”

TJG Would that be involved in the thought of contemplation as over against the physical fact of hearing and seeing and touching? Contemplation seems to be something beyond what is physical.

AJG Well, it is, and would require opened eyes to see it, so that John says, “we have contemplated his glory,” John 1: 14. What they saw was glorious in their eyes, morally glorious, and held their attention, but others would perhaps be in a position to see it, but yet did not see it.

GAL Yet the other was very important because it became the basis of the ministry of the twelve in the early part of Acts. They had been with the Lord, they had seen Him die and they had seen Him as raised from the dead, and they had received their commission from Him. All that gave authority to their ministry.

AJG Yes. So that while in the principle of it, this word of life was before their eyes throughout the Lord’s public testimony here, I suppose what they apprehended of Christ during the forty days after His resurrection would particularly set forth this side of the truth, because they would see in Jesus a Man actually on earth coming in and going out amongst them, and yet entirely apart from the world. The world did not see Him at all; nor did He touch the things of the world or have any part in testimony in the world even. They saw Him moving in and out in an out-of-the-world heavenly condition of things, yet moving in and out amongst them on the earth as risen from the dead. His position during those forty days particularly sets out the idea of eternal life, although the character of it was there in Him during His course here.

BGH Would that be covered by the expression, “our hands have handled”? I am thinking of the Lord’s words, “handle me and see.”

AJG Yes, that is the only instance we have recorded of His being handled.

BGH So that it is what is beyond death in that sense, is it not?

AJG Yes, in the spirit of it or the essence of it. The Lord’s life was lived with the Father.

WMcK Does the matter of handling the Lord after His resurrection stress the idea of substantiality?

AJG It does exactly. I believe it is mentioned for that very purpose to show that these things were real, and that is what we have to be brought to, the reality of Christianity, so that we do not content ourselves with merely having a certain understanding of the truth, but we are to challenge ourselves as to how far we are in accord with it.

PAR Would holding Him by the feet have the same thought as substantiality?

AJG Yes, I suppose so, quite so. So the Lord was stressing that He was a real Man on earth, moving about on earth, a real Man, “a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me have,” Luke 24: 39. It is to emphasise the reality of the thing, that it is not just a theory or something mystical, but it is a real thing that can be known here on earth in men.

EJH Is the substantiality seen in Peter and John when Peter can say, “What I have, this give I to thee”? The substance that was with him was on the line of giving in regard of God’s thoughts.

AJG Well, yes, and then we read of the shadow of Peter, which would emphasise the idea of substance behind the shadow.

AAG Peter had said, “Look on us.”

AJG I was thinking of that. You get the idea there too, perhaps more in that and in the shadow of Peter than in “what I have.” But at the end of the Acts you have Paul saying, “such as I am”; there you have the idea of substance, too.

HDT The napkins taken from his body, too. Am I to understand that what you are stressing is the substantiality of what came out in Christ personally? It is to come out in us and we are to be affected by it. Is that what you have in mind in these Scriptures?

AJG Yes, exactly, because it is the standard.

HDT There is no addition to it.

AJG So that two or three times we come back to, “that which was from the beginning.” As we have in chapter 2: 24, “as for you” (this was addressed to little children) “let that which ye have heard from the beginning abide in you if what ye have heard from the beginning abides in you.” It is what was at the beginning of Christianity first as set out in Christ before the eyes of the apostles, and then as ministered by the apostles to those who believed.

GAL That makes the contemplation of Christ a very, very important matter in relation to life, does it not?

AJG It does indeed, and the final word of the apostle at the end of chapter 2 is to all, whether fathers, young men or little children, “and now, children, abide in him,” verse 28. As though that is the great essential.

FWK The thought of seeing and hearing is also introduced in connection with the coming of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2. Would that be in line with what John says here, “seeing and hearing”?

AJG Yes. You mean that people could see and hear certain things in the saints? Quite so.

MHT In view of what you have just said as to handling the Lord, why does He say to Mary of Magdala, “touch me not”?

AJG I think because Mary was desirous of having the Lord back again in the relations in which she had known Him before He died, so she says, “My teacher,” as though she wants to have the Lord for herself. But the Lord as much as said that she had got to learn to identify herself with Him in a new position and in a new circle, so He says, “Go to my brethren.”

HDT The eternal life is something that is enjoyed and gives impulse while we are here, whereas that position was the ascending position that the Lord was taking and the emphasis would hardly be the same, would it?

AJG No, the Lord was seeking to lead her on to heavenly ground, do you mean?

HDT So that as you were saying yesterday, whilst life is the same, the thought of eternal life is that it is enjoyed in the scene where death is. Where there is no death the force of eternal life somewhat diminishes, although the life remains the same.

PAR What is the thought of “yet”? “I have not yet ascended to my Father.”

AJG Well, I suppose that the Lord had not as yet reached finality. He wanted to open out the full privilege of Christianity in the heavenly relationships with His Father and their Father, and His God and their God, and He says, “I have not yet ascended” (John 20: 17), as though to indicate to Mary Magdalene that there was something more that she was to be brought into.

PAR Would it involve that we might touch then?

AJG I would think so.

JGW It would help if you would please open out a little more how we come into it. We can see that the apostles learned from the Lord as expressing this life, but by what means do we come into the good of it? Is it by the Spirit or through the apostles’ writings?

AJG It must be by the Spirit, and I think it is by adhering closely to the apostolic teaching. So it says in Acts 2: 42, “they continued stedfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship and in breaking of bread and in prayers.” They would not go back to Judaism on the one hand nor would they embrace any other teaching than the apostles’ teaching. The apostles give the authoritative setting out of Christianity,

and that is the crying sin of Christendom that they have departed from the apostles and, of course, from the Spirit.

HGH Is that what is involved in “that ye may have fellowship with us”?

AJG Yes, that is it.

JFP So that the “we” of verse 2 is the twelve. “We have seen and bear witness, and report to you the eternal life, which was with the Father, and has been manifested to us.” Is there any connection with the distinctive place the twelve have in the foundations of the city?

AJG I think there would be, but the whole system is built up on apostolic testimony, and that is the great sin of the religious systems around us that they do not recognise that. They admit as a principle that there is such a thing as development and further light and the accommodation of Christianity to present-day conditions and so on, whereas John is combating all that and is insisting that that which was from the beginning remains as the standard of Christianity.

TJG And his warning is in the second epistle as to that matter.

AJG Yes.

JFP Without the recognition of that the distinctive place of Paul cannot be taken account of rightly.

AJG No, quite so. He comes in as giving a special character to the dispensation but, of course, he being an apostle too, he has to be given his place, and a very special place.

EJH Would it be right to say, therefore, that the continuity and substantiality of what was seen in the apostles is to continue until the coming of the Lord, and in such persons as ourselves it is possible in the Spirit?

AJG Yes, I think so. So that the true features of fathers according to John is that they “know him that is from the beginning.”

DJH Do you mind saying a word as to the thought of writing here in connection with joy as distinct from the speaking of the Lord in John 15, “I have spoken these things to you that my joy may be in you, and your joy be full.” Here it is a matter of writing.

AJG I suppose writing has in mind that the dispensation was to continue for a time and that John, who was probably the last of the apostles to go to be with Christ, was shortly to be removed, so that writing places things on record in view of the dispensation continuing.

GAL Is not that very important, that the writing is really the voice of the Holy Spirit as completing the testimony?

AJG Exactly, yes.

HDT So that the saints have always something substantial to refer back to as a standard.

AJG Quite so. So that we have the gospels of Matthew and John written by apostles, and Mark and Luke by other vessels who were not apostles, but taken up by the Spirit to give a complete presentation of Christ as Man here, so that they can be studied to understand Christianity in its proper features.

HFR Is it remarkable that John is selected to open up this matter of eternal life, one who is presented as so near to the Lord?

AJG Quite so, and also one as to whom the Lord says, “If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?” (John 21: 23) suggesting that the line of things that John stands for will continue till the Lord comes, and that is life, the testimony known in life.

GAL Then Peter has his commission to the circumcision and Paul to the uncircumcision, but John has a ministry for the whole of the family of God.

AJG Yes, exactly.

HDT And comes in when breakdown has come into the public position. Does not that give peculiar value to his writings?

AJG I think it does. It is a very important thing to realise that no one can deny the power of life. Therefore, if there is just one person who is really in the power of Christianity, the thing is maintained in testimony here.

ECM Would that not fortify us against what is connected with the last hour in connection with Antichrist?

AJG Yes, it would.

DMcI Can we have a word as to why he introduces the thought of light? - “God is light.”

AJG I think that is very important that the apostle should so early introduce the moral element, and he brings it in not as a mere incident in teaching, but as a definite message. “This is the message which we have heard from him and declare to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all,” verse 5. So that he is insisting on the moral element as the first characteristic you might say of Christianity.

HDT Whilst it is very exercising it is also very assuring, is it not?

AJG Well, it is - “no darkness at all”!

HDT Do you not think in that sense it is one of the characteristics of life that God is known in that character, as being without possibility of change or alteration of any kind? Does not that introduce the feature of stability into the heart of the believer?

AJG It does, and then we have in Christ One who as Man is completely in accord with it, so that He could say He was altogether what He said to them. That is a great comfort too that not only is God known as One in whom there is no darkness at all, but Jesus is known as in every way in keeping with that, so it is set out in manhood.

FW The way it is introduced at the beginning of the gospel would be helpful, would it not, as to the light?

AJG Yes. “In him was life, and the life was the light of men,” John 1: 4. He came into the world as the true light, so that the first thing that is set out in Him is the idea of life and that is light to men.

FWT Is the moral instruction carried down to verse 2 of chapter 2?

AJG I think it is. That is, there is this message brought in that “God is light and in him is no darkness at all.” Then the verses that follow, including verses 1 and 2 of chapter 2, bring in how we might face up to that and be in practical accord with it, even though we do not deceive ourselves and say we have no sin or have not sinned, but there is the provision for that.

FWT I was wondering if that was the moral basis for being able to seize on the thought of eternal life?

AJG I think it is, and I do not think there is anything more important to stress at the present time than that there must be a moral basis for all these things. Our profession is worthless if it has not got a moral basis for it, and if it is not marked by moral features that are according to God. We often find breakdown on the moral line among the saints and it discredits the testimony.

HGH Is that what is involved in verse 6, “If we say ... “?

AJG Yes. “If we say we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not practise the truth,” verse 6. So that John is in that sense uncompromising; he is like God Himself. He does not mix things or adulterate them in any way.

DMcI So that this follows on the line you were bringing before us yesterday that this is an intensely personal matter now, this moral question. Whilst it is fellowship, yet if we are to be in the enjoyment of it, it is an individual matter, is it not?

AJG We must have our individual contacts with God maintained and individual exercise to learn from Christ and abide in Him, because I suppose our greatest danger is to come under the influence of the world that is around us to some extent. The world is constantly lowering its standards, but Christianity is maintained according to the standard of what was from the beginning.

GAL I take it this statement “God is light” involves the revelation of Himself so that that becomes the basis of our walk together in fellowship.

AJG Surely. It is not simply the light as exposing, the light, you might say incidentally, does expose, but it is the revelation of God.

HDT Then in the discoveries that we make, in the exposure, there is absolute provision made that communion may be maintained in spite of what we are.

AJG Exactly.

TJG So that “do not practise the truth” is that there is what is hostile to life and what is not in accordance with the revelation of God?

AJG Yes. God has come out revealed in His nature in love, and love that has taken account of the condition in which we were, the guilt under which we lay, and the sinful condition in which we were, involved, and love has met it according to divine holiness and righteousness. All that enters into the light that shines and by which we are to be formed, so that under the influence of love we learn to judge evil as God judges it and find in Christ and the Spirit the power to come into accord with the light.

HFR Every element of darkness militates against the enjoyment of eternal life, they cannot go on together. “In him is no darkness at all.”

AJG Quite so.

WHL John 3 says, “he that practises the truth comes to the light.” Is that a characteristic idea?

AJG It is; I was thinking of that scripture. Then it says that “Every one that does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light that his works may not be shown as they are” (John 3: 20), and “he that believes not has been already judged, because he has not believed on the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the judgment, that light is come into the world, and men have loved darkness rather than light; for their works were evil,” verse 19. The light that has come into the world makes it possible for us to judge the evil and come into accord with God in regard of it, and yet not ourselves come into condemnation. So that if we go on with evil we expose ourselves by the very fact of doing so.

RGB So does the fellowship with one another referred to in verse 7 become in that way a real and transparent matter?

AJG It does.

GAL Then would you say that the more we can appreciate the fact that God is come into the light and all His nature expressed in Jesus, the more we feel the need of the cleansing power of the blood that we might be in accord with that light?

AJG Yes, I am sure of that.

HDT We are not to be discouraged either, because it says, “the darkness is passing” - it does not say it is gone altogether - “the true light now shines.” There is nothing more to come by way of light in that sense, but when it comes to the elimination of the darkness, that may be a process that is still going on with us all.

AJG Well, perhaps so.

FGH What is your distinction between the fellowship in verse 6 and the fellowship in verse 7? Verse 6 speaks of fellowship “with him” and verse 7 fellowship “with one another.”

AJG Well, the first is “if we say,” if we take that ground, there is no reason why we should not have fellowship with Him. Of course we can go on in communion with the Lord, but if we take that ground and say that we do, our course must bear witness to it. But as we walk in the light that becomes a basis of fellowship with one another. Obviously if I walk in darkness and you are walking in the light; there is no basis of fellowship between us, but both walking in the light there is a basis for fellowship.

JGW What is involved in that fellowship? We often speak of fellowship, but I am wondering whether what is written to the intent that our joy may be in full would be a governing factor of the fellowship. Would you agree with that?

AJG Joy is not exactly our object; joy is the effect as we walk in the light. “These things write I unto you that your joy may be full”; it makes it attractive. To have joy is not exactly our object, but as we walk in the light and enjoy the knowledge of God and the knowledge of Christ, we also enjoy fellowship with one another. The idea of fellowship is just that we have part together in common interests and joys.

JGW I am wondering, in suggesting the governing factor, whether we often put the joy as a result of going on as we say in fellowship, probably on social lines, but is it not on a higher plane than that?

AJG Oh, yes. There is no thought of going on together on social lines here, that is introducing an element of corruption.

ESB Would you distinguish for us between the light and the truth? It says of Demetrius he had witness borne to him by the truth.

AJG Well, I do not know that there is a great deal of difference. Light is what makes the truth known. God is in the light and God is light, and the truth is really the truth as to what God is. So that there is not a great deal of difference. The light is what makes the truth known, but then the truth becomes our bond in the world where the truth has been departed from.

GAL That was never more important than today.

AJG No, never. I think in John’s writings the truth is the bond whereas in Paul’s writings the testimony is the bond. It is very much the same idea.

EJH Have you the same principle in 2 Timothy 2 in regard to the fellowship with Him and with one another? But if we move according to the truth and separate from iniquity, then we can “pursue righteousness, faith, love, peace, with those that call upon the Lord out of a pure heart.”

AJG Yes, you mean the truth becomes the bond in that way.

EJH First with the Lord and then with one another.

AJG Quite so.

BGH Does this question of fellowship with Him really touch on what we were speaking of yesterday as to our personal links with divine Persons?

AJG Well, it does, and I think if we go away from these meetings with a sense of the importance of the cultivation and maintenance of those links, the meetings will not be in vain, because this epistle is stressing the reality and the substantiality of Christianity and stressing that the standard must be maintained according to what was from the beginning.

FWK Why does the writer bring in at once, “and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin,” as having referred to the fellowship?

AJG Are you not thankful for that every day? We have to do with God every day in the sense of that, and very thankful for it, too.

TJG How do you understand the thought of cleansing by blood in this connection?

AJG Well, it is the cleansing that is made good in us by the Spirit as we apprehend freshly the value of that blood in the sight of God. It justifies too, death having come in. The man that sinned has been ended in death and you are very thankful that the value of that abides before God.

GAL The witness to the abiding efficacy of the work of Christ. We need to have that.

AJG Yes. It is the blood of Jesus Christ His Son, such an One as that!

CJD Is the moral line of what we practise to be a fixed matter with us? According to the last chapter of Revelation, “Let him that does unrighteously do unrighteously still; and let the filthy make himself filthy still; and let him that is righteous practise righteousness still; and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still.” Is that at the close of the days to be a fixed matter with us?

AJG It is indeed, because there is a certain feature of what is judicial operating in Christendom now, so that the filthy is filthy still. Then there is a word to encourage believers not to give up at the end, but whatever may be the influences around us, to see that we maintain divine standards in our souls and “he that is holy, let him be sanctified still,” Revelation 22: 11.

ADT Does walking in the light involve the maintenance of the dignity of the fellowship? According to 1 Corinthians 1, “God is faithful, by whom ye have been called into the fellowship of his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.”

AJG Well, it would. It is the dignity of the fellowship, as you say. The fellowship of God’s Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, and if we walk in the light as God is in the light, we maintain the true dignity of it.

HDT So that unless our souls are maintained in the abiding efficacy of the work of Christ and that we are taken up in relation to another man out of death we may almost fear to face the light as it is shining in these chapters.

AJG Quite so; but then the second verse of chapter 3 says that “Jesus Christ ... is the propitiation for our sins.” So that it is not simply a question of the abiding efficacy of His death, but He personally is there before God all the time in the value of His death.

AWP Is the light provision for the day in which we find ourselves? Not only to light the way - it does, in view of the walk - but to light up all that is available provisionally in regard to that walk, and you apprehend all the efficacy and all that has been accomplished and it is all applied in regard of the light illuminating the path that we tread.

AJG You are speaking about the light as illuminating our path; but it is more than that, it is the light of God Himself.

AWP So that the full value of all that God has set forth in Christ both in regard to the work and in regard to the end of the work is, for us, it is lit up for us.

AJG Yes, I think so. God has in mind that we should be thoroughly at home in the knowledge of Himself and be wholly pleasing to Him as walking before Him, and He is able to bring that to pass. The blood of Christ remains as an abiding basis on which He can operate by the Spirit in our souls and form us according to Christ.

WMcK Would you say that the passage in Ephesians 4 might help? Verse 17 says, “this I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye should no longer walk as the rest of the nations walk in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in understanding, estranged from the life of God by reason of the ignorance which is in them, by reason of the hardness of their hearts.” What link is there, if any, between the life of God and the thought of eternal life?

AJG I think there is a link. “Estranged from the life of God,” a remarkable expression that obviously does not refer to essential Deity, but there is the life of God, the interests that God lives in, if one might say so reverently, and that we are to be brought to have part in those interests. So it seems to me that the opposite to being “estranged from the life of God” is illustrated in a man like Enoch, who walked with God.

THW Is the thought of confession to help us to appreciate that which is available to us.

AJG Yes, surely. If we confess our sins He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins. We must confess them, because as we confess them before God we morally repudiate them. We acknowledge their true character in the sight of God and in doing so we repudiate them.

HDT Would the word ‘communion’ which we do not often use these days, cover pretty much what we are speaking of now? I was thinking of all we have before us, we do not speak much of that these days and wondered whether it was a most important thing, it was part of the enjoyment, you might say, of eternal life. Communion with divine Persons as outside what belongs to us here is our ordinary circumstances.

AJG I think so; I believe that is important, because there is a good deal of rush nowadays and we have many privileges of being together, but there is just the danger perhaps that in those conditions communion may be little known by us, in the real power of it.

GAL But there is no growth without it, surely.

AJG There is no growth without it. One is often challenged that one may know a good deal about speaking to the Lord, and speaking to the Father, and speaking to the Spirit, and it is often a question in my mind as to how much I know of the Lord speaking to me, and the Spirit speaking to me. That is what one would like to know more of.

GAL Hence it seems to me the light is so important because the nature of God is seen in the Person of Jesus and how can we understand that light except in communion with Christ by the Spirit’s power? I feel it touches the foundation of the whole thing really.

AJG Quite so. We read in Exodus 33, that Jehovah came down and spoke with Moses.

HAH So that John would be a model for us in that he is in the bosom of Jesus and on His breast.

AJG Quite so.

GM Would you connect with this matter of communion John’s expression of “abiding in him”?

AJG I suppose abiding in Him would work out in communion. Abiding in Him is that we hold ourselves under His influence, so that He is before us as our standard, so to speak, the One from whom we derive impulse and character.

BGH I suppose there would not be very much self-judgment with us if we are not kept in communion. I am thinking of verses 8 and 9 particularly.

AJG Quite so. Now, we ought to move on to chapter 2. John says, “I write to you, children, because your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake,” verse 12. It is remarkable that he speaks to us all, because the word ‘children’ there covers us all, the fathers, and the young men, and the little children. He sets us all on one common basis first before differentiating “Because your sins are forgiven for his name’s sake.” He is bringing Christ before us, “his name’s sake,” and the fact that our sins have been forgiven, which would involve that we are in the sense of it, that we are no longer going on with them.

TJG And using the most initial aspect of our blessing. It is not justification here, it is just forgiveness.

AJG Yes. I have often thought that in a sense we may have this before us when we come together to break bread. We all come together on common ground, the youngest believer and the oldest, our sins have all been forgiven for His name’s sake, that is something we all owe to Christ, and we come together to break bread on common ground. You can take common ground with the youngest believer when we come together.

TJG You mean, it would have a fine binding effect upon us all.

AJG Yes.

JDW Then John was a father, was he not?

AJG Well, he certainly was.

JDW “I write to you, children.” It was as a father communicating to children he was writing.

AJG I think that helps. In chapter 2 you might say we are John’s children; in chapter 3 we are children of God, but in this chapter we are really being addressed as John’s children.

HDT It may be that we have made rather a lot of the distinctions that come in and the grades, and of course, they do exist, but perhaps not sufficient of what places us together on the one common platform the thought of the breaking of bread. We are all loved with the same love, the Lord does not love some more than others. “For you” is the same love towards all. There may be difference of capacities to respond, but the love is the same.

AJG Yes, it is.

DMcI Why does he say “are forgiven,” not “have been”?

AJG It is our abiding portion. It is what marks us characteristically and continually, so it says, in Ephesians 1: 7, “In whom we have redemption ... the forgiveness of sins.” We do not want to lose the sense of being forgiven.

DMcI I think that is important.

EJH It speaks of young men in this family, but it does not say anything about old men.

AJG No, it is a question of growth in stature, spiritual stature, I suppose. There is no thought of being old, exactly; it is a question of being fathers, those who are fathers.

EJH They have their eye and their heart on the coming generation in regard to the preservation of the testimony.

AJG I would think so, but what characterises the fathers is that they have known and they know Him that is from the beginning.

EJH They would put all their experience and their joy and abiding satisfaction in Christ, they would put all that before the young men continually.

AJG Yes, I think that would exemplify the truth particularly.

HAH Would they be presented as the result of developed communion?

AJG Quite so, and contemplation too.

HDT Mr. Darby has a note to “ye have known him that is from the beginning” - ‘The perfect tense; the state produced continues.’ Yes. I believe that is important. So that there is a continual increase in the knowledge of Christ.

TJG And a state produced in that knowledge, referring to the note again. Not only that it continues, but a state produced, referring to the steady growth that is arrived at. I think we all realise the tremendous need for fathers today.

AJG I think so. It is a question of our being set in that direction ourselves, do you not think? So that we see it in Paul; as we were remarking yesterday, near the end of his course he says, “that I may know him.”

BGH His remark to the Corinthians is very sobering, “If ye should have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers.” Is the maintenance of the fatherly spirit amongst us really conducive to the enjoyment of eternal life amongst the saints?

AJG I think so. Fathers should have influence, and they do have influence just in the measure in which they exemplify the truth. So the Lord Himself took a fatherly position in regard to the disciples; He called them “children” more than once.

DMcI Is the thought of affection in it? In the next epistle he writes as an elder but here it is fathers. Is it affection that is in mind as well as maturity?

AJG I suppose it is. He does not say a great deal about it; he is pointing out that there are such, and what characterises them, and he leaves it at that.

GAL So in “him that is from the beginning” the true nature of God is seen. Is that what marks a father, that he has a real appreciation of the true nature of God and can bring that to bear upon those amongst whom he is moving?

AJG Yes, and that he has a true appreciation of the Man too who answers to what God is.

GAL It was expressed in a Man.

AJG It is, but not only expressed in a Man, but then you see in Jesus the answer to it in a Man.

GAL I was thinking, as J.N.D. says, the greater part of Christ’s manhood, the more glorious part, is seen in His relations with God.

AJG Quite so, and that is what we have to apprehend too, I think. I think we more easily understand the revelation of God in Christ than we understand the perfect answer to that revelation in Christ too.

GAL I thought the revelation covered both, really. It is different from priestly access, is it not? It is a life that is lived in receiving divine communications and revealing the nature of God and setting forth in perfection all the answer to that communication.

AJG Well, exactly. The two thoughts in a sense act and react on one another. At the same time you can apprehend the two thoughts distinctly; and the true manhood of Christ, as the perfect answer to God, is something to be constantly contemplated.

HDT Did not Mr. Raven say that the approach was equal to the revelation, speaking of the Apostle and High Priest of our confession? You have got the same idea in what you are saying now, the One in whom God is revealed sets forth God’s perfect thoughts for man.

AJG Yes, quite so.

RGB You said earlier that the Father would have before Him the standard set out in Him who was from the beginning and would never deviate from that. Do you think that is important, that the standard set out in Christ should be held to and never surrendered?

AJG I believe that is of the utmost importance. We can thank God that the brethren are very much together in mutuality of affection now as compared with what they used to be; but there is just the danger of an element of sociability and all that kind of thing coming in. Not that one would be legal in any sense, but I do think we have to be careful to keep the standard before our hearts - the standard of Christianity.

EJH There are a good many young men here;

would you say a word in regard to the warning that is given to them and the commendation they have?

AJG Well. John says, “Love not the world, nor the things in the world,” verse 15. I believe the things in the world are a much greater danger to us than the world itself, because most of us, through grace are fairly clear from the world itself as a system, but the great danger is bringing the principle or the things of the world into our own circle. So that when God was to bring His people into the land, He had first of all to bring them out of Egypt, which was bringing them out of the world as a system, and He did bring them out, but before they could really come into the land they had to overthrow Jericho. Jericho is not so much the system but the principles that have to be overthrown, and that answers more to the things that are in the world that may find a place in the Christian circle.

GM Is that where Achan failed?

AJG Yes, exactly, so that there was a powerful testimony when the walls of Jericho were thrown down, and in the early chapters of Acts you see, as you take account of what is said of the believers in the second chapter and the fourth chapter, that every principle of the world was completely overthrown. They were together and had all things in common and were contented and so on, and there was not a single element of the world finding a place in that company. But then in Ananias and Sapphira they began to introduce the element, and it was met at once, but you get the idea there.

TJG By understanding what the things of the world are we really get a true concept of what the world itself is. The apostle’s word to the Colossians, “See that there be no one who shall lead you away as a prey through philosophy and vain deceit, according to the teaching of men, according to the elements of the world, and not according to Christ,” Colossians 2: 8.

The elements of the world really give us to understand what the world is.

AJG Yes, in some form or another it brings in the first man again, whereas Christianity is Christ.

Ques Is “the first place” among us, which Diotrephes loved, one of the things in the world?

AJG It certainly is, and the reputation in the things of God which was what Ananias and Sapphira coveted.

FVW In what sense have the young men especially overcome the wicked one? It is mentioned twice.

AJG I think that they were sound in the faith. It is an allusion to the danger to which the little children were exposed, that is anti-Christian teaching and so on was the danger to which little children are exposed. But I think the young men had overcome all that, so that they were sound in the faith.

HDT That did not render them safe.

AJG It did not, exactly.

WMcK You have referred to the beginning of Acts and Ananias and Sapphira. Is it of note that the young men come to light in relation to their burial?

AJG That is very interesting. They were equal to it, to taking out Ananias and burying him, and then doing the same service to Sapphira. But you can understand what an exercising matter it would be to them, what heart searching it would produce with them to have to take Ananias and bury him, and then Sapphira too.

DMcI Would occupation with the things that are given into the hands of the Son preserve us from the things that are in the world?

AJG It would. So it says, “the Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand,” (John 3: 35), so that we have to learn what it is the Father loves. You might say who it is the Father loves, but then we have to learn what it is in Christ that the Father loves, “This is my beloved Son in whom I have found my delight.” It raises the question as to what it is about Christ that causes such delight to the Father.

DMcI That is the reference to the love of the Father that is in this portion.

ECM Is it not beautiful in connection with the Lord Jesus at the age of twelve that He was occupied in the things of the Father? I wondered if that would be a preservative over against the things of the world.

AJG Yes, it would, quite so.

GAL Do we not see in John’s gospel how thoroughly and absolutely the Lord Jesus overcomes the world right the way through?

AJG Yes. Mr. Raven used to say that He overcame by not surrendering. He would not surrender anything that was due to God.

GAL So He is able to say, “Now is the Son of man glorified.” There is a Man going into death for the pleasure of God, the first One that had ever died for the pleasure of God, over whom Satan never, at any moment, acquired an atom of power.

AJG Quite so.

FGH In regard to verse 17, would doing the will of God be a preservative to us?

AJG Yes. “He that does the will of God abides for eternity,” verse 17. So that you can see that the apostle is lifting us on to a plane that is entirely different from the principles that govern the world.

ALO Were the temptations of our Lord the attempts by the enemy to introduce the things of the world?

AJG It was, but I do not know that one can exactly, as is often done, identify the three temptations that are recorded with what is said here about the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eye and the pride of life. They are often linked on with the three temptations, but I do not see myself that the presentation of bread could be called “the lust of the flesh.” Still, that is by the way, the tempter, the devil, was seeking to get an entrance into the Lord, and of course, as we know, the Lord says, “he has nothing in me,” John 14:30. There was nothing that the devil could act upon.

HDT Seeing we are looking at eternal life, the expression “the pride of life,” is in very striking contrast. We might be able to specify the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes, but the pride of life is an exceedingly searching matter, is it not?

BBB Would what is of the Father be known in the sphere of eternal life?

AJG I think it would. “The Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand,” and “he that believes on the Son has eternal life,” John 3: 35 and 36. So that believing on the Son, we are introduced into the Father’s sphere of interests and Christ is the centre of them, and so we learn what is pleasing to the Father in Christ.

HAH Is it important to get away from the mere thought of age in regard to all these three stages of growth?

AJG I think it is, because there are many of us who may be getting on in years, who may not be more than young men spiritually. I do not think there is any reason why a father should not become a father at a comparatively youthful age, and I have no doubt that Mr. Darby was a father when he was still quite a young man.

TJG So that fatherhood is not synonymous with eldership? Is that right?

AJG No. I do not think it is, quite.

HDT Hezekiah was only twenty-five when he said to the Levites, “My sons, be not now negligent.” That was really the language of a father.

AJG Yes. Quite so.

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