ETERNAL LIFE (4)

ETERNAL LIFE (4)

1 John 3:16-24; 1 John 5:1-13; 1 John 5:19-21

AJG This chapter 3 of the epistle brings out the two generations which are on the earth, that is, those who are children of God as begotten of God, and those who are the children of the devil. There is the circle or system, in a moral sense, connected with each; the circle of the brethren, on the one hand, where love obtains, and the world on the other hand which lies in the wicked one; the first circle marked by life and the other by death. So that in verse 14 it says, “we know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren”; and the two are opposed the one to the other. Chapter 5 brings in the thought of victory over the world. The passage we have read in chapter 3 is engaged with our knowing and persuading our hearts; that is, proving the reality of Christianity as allowing the truth to govern us and form us, and especially righteousness and love. Righteousness, in a practical sense, and love, are the outstanding features of the children of God; and in this passage we are urged to allow love to work out practically; first as learning it in Christ, as it says, “hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us,” and then as learning to practise it. By this means we assure our hearts; it says, we persuade our hearts. So that the reality of the truth is proved and confirmed to us as we walk in it. It is striking that in verse 23 of chapter 3 we have a commandment, the idea of commandment being what God insists on, what He lays down as particularly for our good, that we are commanded to “believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and that we love one another,” which links with what we had at the outset, the importance of active faith with us, that we are commanded to believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ. That is not simply an initial matter, but it is what is to characterise us.

EJH Verse 16 is not put on the basis of privilege or of being voluntary, but it is placed upon the basis of obligation. Is that what you have in mind in referring to the commandment, that it should be done? It is, “we ought for the brethren to lay down our lives.”

AJG Yes, and I think as confirming us ourselves God has in mind that we should prove the power of Christianity; and then as moving in it in power there should be undeniable testimony in days when apostasy is increasing. So it is love that we have known, and not specifically the love of Christ, although it is the love of Christ, but it is love which is of God, as come into perfect expression in Christ. We learn it there, and then it is to work out in ourselves.

GAL So that God being known in that way every thought is held as binding on the saints. I was thinking of the Lord Jesus Himself. “This commandment have I received of my Father.” The Father’s desire and thought in that sense was binding upon the Lord Jesus in love, was it not?

AJG Quite so. It is of great importance to realise that it is the truth that is in question ever since Satan introduced the lie into the heart of the woman, and then of the man; the truth as to God has been at issue and the saints now, as begotten of God, are to stand in it and walk in it.

HGH So is the suggestion that we have known love expressed by way of sacrifice, and that is to be expressed by us in the measure in which we have known it?

AJG That is it. So that Paul says to the Thessalonians that they were taught of God to love one another. It is natural to Christians to love one another. But he says, “we exhort you, brethren, to abound still more” - it is to be developed by practising it.

HDT Is this a reference to what the Lord said to His own after Judas had gone out? “A new commandment I give to you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all know that ye are disciples of mine, if ye have love amongst yourselves.”

AJG Yes. It is a commandment. I think it is well to take note of this first part of the commandment that we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, that we should be characteristically believers on the name of God’s Son, Jesus Christ, all the renown that attaches to Him, because it opens up another world, another sphere altogether.

FWK How far does the expression go, “hereby we have known love, because he has laid down his life for us”? Would you link it at all with, “Jesus ... having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end,” John 13: 1? Would it involve more than His death, in that way, do you think?

AJG I think it is His death that is in view, that He has laid down His life for us. I think laying down the life is regarded as the full extent to which love goes. So that Paul says that he always bore about in his body the dying of Jesus; that is to say, he was carrying the sense of it in his soul and that strengthened him to continue on the line of serving the saints even to the extent of laying down his life for them, if needs be.

DMcI Are you linking this with what the Lord said, “on this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life,” John 10: 17?

AJG The Lord says there, “because I lay down my life that I may take it again.” It is the taking it again that is especially in view there. Of course, the Father found great pleasure in the sacrifice of Christ, the laying down of His life; but it was the taking it again that the Lord emphasises there. But here it is the great expression of love that is to be operative as an impelling motive to us. So it says in Genesis 4 that Eve conceived and bore a son and called him Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man with Jehovah.” But she made a great mistake. Then it says, “she further bore his brother Abel.” As soon as there was a man born God brought in a brother; but this only served to bring out that “Cain was of the wicked one and slew his brother.” But it was intended that love should be developed, so God brought a brother upon the scene and love is developed amongst the brethren.

FS What is involved in believing on the Name?

AJG It is the renown of Christ, not only involving what He has done in His death, but involving the scene of which He is the centre. “The Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand.” It is part of His renown that He has risen from among the dead and ascended, and is the centre of another world, a world of love; and we are to believe on the name of God’s Son. Jesus Christ.

HDT Does it also involve that these things are worked out during the time of Christ’s absence?

AJG Yes, it certainly does. What have you in mind in that?

HDT I was thinking there will be much achieved when the Lord takes the reins over and holds everything personally here. I wondered whether the name involved His absence from this scene. He is not here personally but His name is here. It involves the present time and all that is secured substantially in the saints.

AJG I think that is right, because it is in the present time that the contest between the truth and the lie is being worked out to God’s glory in the children of God, those born of Him. We have the sphere of eternal life and the enjoyment of eternal life as over against the world as a system and its moral features.

TJG So do these features in our first passage, chapter 3, display some of the interests and pursuits of the eternal life circle?

AJG I think so. It has in mind that we are to be confirmed in the truth. “Hereby we shall know that we are of the truth and shall persuade our hearts before him.” The whole point in the epistle seems to be a confirmatory idea that we may know that we have eternal life and prove the power of Christianity.

WMcK You referred to the idea of being begotten of God; is that the idea that we are made partakers of the divine nature, and is it a matter of that nature having full liberty in this system?

AJG Yes, I think so, and the brethren are the circle in which it is to develop. We are not exactly called upon or regarded as loving men; we show grace to men as God does; but it is in the circle of the brethren that love is to be developed. So that God provided Cain with a brother, a brother Abel, and Abel loved Cain, for God told Cain that his desire would be toward him.

EJH Does not God say to Moses, “Is not Aaron the Levite thy brother? I know that he can speak well; and also behold, he goeth out to meet thee; and when he seeth thee he will be glad in his heart.” God put a brother in touch with one who is to be His servant, and they laboured together in the truth.

AJG Yes, quite so.

HGH So the expression, “laid down his life for us,” is the Christian circle “us”?

AJG Yes, it is the brethren.

HDT Does Paul have this in mind when he says, “be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children, and walk in love, even as the Christ loved us, and delivered himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour,” Ephesians 5: 1, 2? Is Paul touching pretty much what John is saying here?

AJG Yes, I think so.

HDT The circle of the brethren is the place where love is expressed and reciprocated.

AJG Quite so. Then it contemplates that as having the Holy Spirit there is a certain sensitiveness with us so that it is possible that our heart may condemn us. So it says, “if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart and knows all things,” that is, it is well for us to face matters if our heart does condemn us because we cannot conceal things from God, although we sometimes try to conceal them from ourselves or from the brethren. But if our heart condemn us, it is well to face things with God and judge the element of darkness that is causing the condemnation.

TJG How are we aware of the condemnation? Is it because of the knowledge that God is greater than our heart?

AJG I think it is what the Spirit makes us aware of if we are sensitive.

FGH Why is the heart referred to, “if our heart condemn us”? It is not a matter of conscience exactly? Does it refer to the affections?

AJG I think it does, and what we are as begotten of God. I mean, a man who is not born again has a conscience, but this is somewhat on a higher plane. It is a question of the children of God and those who are regarded as moving consistently with what God is in His nature.

HDT Does it not stress the inward side of things in contrast to what is merely external? God looks on the heart not on the outward appearance.

AJG Quite so.

FWT Would we be more sensitive if the principle we were speaking of this morning, communion, were better known to us?

AJG I think so, and especially if we are exercised to abide in Christ. “Hereby we have known love because he has laid down his life for us.” As abiding in Christ we are constantly reminded of that.

HDT So in the corresponding passage quoted from Ephesians we have the injunction, “do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which ye have been sealed for the day of redemption,” Ephesians 4: 30. Would that not bring about the sensitiveness that would keep us right inwardly as well as externally?

AJG I am sure it would. Then, “if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.” Therefore, we can get to God about it, because He has a perfect answer to all that is discovered in ourselves that is out of keeping with Himself, and we can get adjusted. If our heart condemn us not we have boldness towards God, and whatsoever we ask we receive from Him. It is striking the importance which John, in his epistle (chapters 3, 4 and 5), attaches to our having power with God in asking, something which the Lord made much of in John 16.

EJH Is that on the line of “the pure in heart shall see God”? Matthew 5: 8.

AJG Yes, as having access to God. It is a great thing to have access to God, to be able to use the influence we have with God on behalf of others. Abraham did that.

DMcI The footnote says that ‘God being greater’ is evidently a testing searching thing. Would you say a word as to that?

AJG Well, we all know the tendency with us to deceive ourselves sometimes and keep up appearances; but God is greater than our hearts and knows all things. So that we may as well be open and transparent with God; it is our safety and our blessing. “If our heart condemn us God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.” Therefore, do not go on in that state; get things right, and He has the means of helping us and enabling us to judge ourselves in the light of Christ.

WMcK Does it imply that God is not condemning us, even if our hearts condemn us? God is greater, and He is toward us in that way.

AJG I think so - He is toward us; He wants us to be moving with Him without a shade. So, “if our heart condemn us not, we have boldness towards God, and whatsoever we ask we receive from him.”

GAL Is part of the lie of the enemy to which you referred earlier that God is not for us? So that this is completely undone as in the consciousness of His presence.

AJG Quite so.

GM Is there an instance of this in John 21, where the Lord sifts Peter in order that he might have boldness, and the heart’s exercises are exposed?

AJG Quite so. The Lord is very tender in that chapter, very gracious; not a word of reproach. They come and find a fire of coals and fish laid thereon and bread, and “Jesus says to them, Bring of the fishes which ye have now taken.” He is acting very tenderly toward them in grace, and as having laid that basis in their souls, and with it resting upon their spirits. He gently but firmly searches Peter so as to set him up again in unhindered communion.

GAL Have you any thought as to verse 22, “whatsoever we ask we receive from him”? It seems that this intimacy would give us to know what to ask for. I was thinking, in contradistinction, in Romans 8, in relation to the groaning creation, it is said that we know not what to ask for. That is not the ground taken here, is it?

AJG No, that is not the ground here. “We receive from him, because we keep his commandments, and practise the things which are pleasing in his sight.” That does not quite touch the question of our intelligence to know what to ask. But I think the passage in John’s gospel does, where the Lord says, “if ye abide in me” - that would deliver us from all lawlessness and make us morally acceptable - “and my words abide in you” - that will make us intelligent - “ye shall ask what ye will and it shall come to pass to you.”

HDT Is that not in relation to the testimony, and not our own personal matters?

AJG I think it is. Here this epistle seems to work out that we are our brother’s keeper, so that in the earlier part of the chapter, in verse 17, it says, “whoso may have the world’s substance, and see his brother having need, and shut up his bowels from him ... .” That is, we have our eyes open to the physical needs of our brethren. Then in chapter 5 we have our eyes open to their moral needs; verse 16 says, “if any one see his brother sinning a sin not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life, for those that do not sin unto death.” So that there is the practical setting out that we are, in fact, our brother’s keeper. It is remarkable how much details of the incident of Cain and Abel, if looked into, are worked out in this epistle.

MHT Is it not striking that in one of the two references in the Old Testament to eternal life (namely in Psalm 133), you have clearly laid down what you have been pressing, the moral basis on which it is enjoyed, namely, harmony and unity and love amongst the brethren?

AJG Yes, that is very striking.

ACC You spoke of Cain and Abel: would Abel have confidence in approaching God with his offering that God was pleased with Abel and his offering, in contrast to Cain who would be self-condemned?

AJG Yes, I think so. Righteousness and love are the great features in which God is known, you might say, and typically we can see that they were both brought into evidence in the coats of skin with which God clothed Adam and Eve; that is, there was the maintenance of righteousness and the moving in love towards His creature, and that became the testimony which Abel embraced, his offering was in keeping with that. But Cain ignores all that; he was of that wicked one and slew his brother.

RGB Were you thinking that what we have in this chapter would lay the basis in our souls for power with God in prayer, so that we might be the more serviceable in the helping and care of our brethren?

AJG I think so. It is illustrated in Esther, who was already pleasing to the king as a result of the process she went through; but then she has to be exercised as to whether she is prepared to lay down her life for the brethren if she is to acquire power with the king, and she answers to the test and does acquire power with the king.

WS The whole purpose of it is to give us confirmation in our souls as to the truth.

AJG That is it.

JGW In your reference to verse 17, I would like you to say why God is so much mentioned here, because in chapter 2 it says, “the love of the Father is not in him,” and in verse 17 it says, “how abides the love of God in him.” Would you say why there is a difference?

AJG The main thought is GOD. In chapter 4, from which we have not read, God is mentioned, I think, twenty-nine times, showing what a prominent thought GOD is in this epistle. In the passage to which you refer in chapter 2 where it says, “the love of the Father is not in him,” it is because it is the world in contrast to the Father’s world. “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand.” So that there are the two worlds in juxtaposition or in contrast, but the main thought in the epistle is GOD, the true thought of God; so that it is not the love of Christ, it is not called that, but “hereby we have known love” - that is what God is in His nature, “because he has laid down his life for us.”

EJH Is this to be characteristic of us all? It is not a few who are to lay down their lives for the brethren or to be expressive of these things. It would bring before us a wonderful circle where everybody is doing the same thing, would it not?

AJG It would, and therefore it is a great circle of life in the presence of a circle of moral death.

GAL Are the consequences very much seen in the book of Genesis, where Judah was prepared to lay down his life for the brethren? The moral consequences of that were very great.

AJG Quite so.

CJHD Was the truth as to unity involved in Acts 15 and settled in such a way that love could be shown in expression in the chosen men who had given up their lives for the Lord Jesus Christ?

AJG That would commend them, I suppose, in a peculiar way to the brethren. Is that what you had in mind?

CJHD Yes, and whether it would lead to unity that such men would be sent as expressive of the truth that had been stood for in Acts 15?

AJG Exactly.

RGB Would this stress the importance of the local assembly as the place where love may be worked out and developed? I was thinking how the enemy is seeking to disrupt the local companies of the saints. But would it suggest that the local company is the circle where divine love may be developed?

AJG I believe that is important, because while John does not exactly deal with local assemblies,

and what we are speaking of is proper to the whole circle of God’s children, yet in actual fact it has to work out in the local company, it has to work out in those who are near to us. So that love is not to be a mere abstraction, it is to be a practical thing.

TJG So it says in verse 17, “and see his brother ... “, and then again, “if any one see his brother ... “ (chapter 5: 16), as though it is what is immediately near or local in that sense.

AJG Yes.

HAH Why is the land divided into families, allotted according to families?

AJG That all runs along with this.

HDT Paul devotes a whole chapter to love in 1 Corinthians, showing that if the local gathering is to function according to God, love must be in operation. So what John brings forward underlies all that Paul ministers, does it not?

AJG It does, indeed. It is really the thought of the body, the thought of love operating. Then in the end of the first epistle to the Corinthians Paul says, “let all your things be done in love.”

GAL Hence the testimony is really seen in power in the saints manifestly in the gain of eternal life?

AJG That is it. That really underlies the public position.

HFR Would it help us as to impartiality? It is the love of God and it has been expressed in the laying down of the life of Christ. It would help us to be general, to lay down our lives for the brethren.

AJG Yes. It is not loving one particular brother or sister, but the brethren, wherever the need may be or whoever they are.

HDT “If ye love those that love you, what thank is it to you,” Luke 6: 32. “Do not also the tax-gatherers the same,” Matthew 5: 46.

AJG Quite so. So that here in chapter 5 it is “everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God, and everyone that loves him that has begotten” - that is, loves God - “loves also him that is begotten of him,” that is, that the children of God are loved because they are that.

FWK Do we see the effectiveness of love in Acts 20? I was thinking of Paul and the Ephesian saints, and the response on their part to the love of which he spoke, and the way he had laid down his life for the saints.

AJG Quite so, and the way it was reciprocated.

JFP Do we see the result of this in the second and third epistles in connection with the elect lady and Gaius? I wondered whether it was the practical working out of those who had committed themselves in love in this way, accepting the obligation.

AJG I think so, so that in the second epistle it works out in excluding evil or evil-doers. In the third epistle it works out in hospitality in Gaius and in walking in the truth, and so on, and in receiving and setting forward those who had gone forth for the Name.

GAL Reverting to an earlier remark, is there not a very great need for these things in our localities now? To face the matter practically, the enemy is very busy in many localities, and this is the very thing that is called for to meet that, is it not?

AJG It is. I think it will greatly help us if we get a right outlook on things and see that the real point of contest is the truth, what God is in contrast to the enemy’s lie; and we are taken up to support the truth by walking in it.

GM Is there not a difference between this reference to abiding in the love of God in chapter 3 and Jude’s reference to keeping ourselves in the love of God, which is in connection with eternal life?

AJG You are referring to verse 24 of chapter 3?

GM The end of verse 17, and Jude’s reference in verse 21, “keep yourselves in the love of God, awaiting the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.”

AJG In this epistle of John it is the thought of the love of God in him, and in Jude it is a question of our keeping ourselves in that love, you might say; the two things work together. But we are to keep ourselves in the love of God as a preservative.

GM I would like help as to this matter of keeping ourselves in the love of God, and the obligation being upon us.

AJG There is an obligation on us. We get the same sort of thing in this epistle where it says, “he that is born of God keeps himself.” We may pray to God and the Lord to keep us; that is quite right: At the same time there is a responsibility to keep ourselves; we have the power to do so because we are born of God and have the Holy Spirit.

EJH “Keep yourselves from idols” are the last word of the epistle.

AJG Quite so.

HDT Paul says to Timothy, “thou shalt save both thyself and those that hear thee,” 1 Timothy 4: 16. So that there is not only the keeping of yourself but the keeping of your brother.

AJG Quite so, and there are certain lines on which we are preserved; it is the line of allowing the truth to regulate our outlook and form our conduct.

EJH “To keep oneself unspotted from the world,” James 1: 27.

AJG Yes, quite so.

THW Is that why Peter, in his second epistle, says, “in brotherly love, love,” chapter 1: 7?

AJG Quite so; that is, it is the pure divine nature working out in us.

TJG It says also, “having purified your souls by obedience to the truth and to unfeigned brotherly love,” 1 Peter 1: 22. Is it in the circle of truth that we provide this unfeigned love to the brother? I have in mind your reference to the truth being really the ground of contest.

AJG Quite so. So there has to be the overcoming of the world in all its principles. So it speaks here - of all “that has been begotten of God gets the victory over the world, and this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith.” That is the Christian faith, not exactly the faith that is in one but the Christian faith. “Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”

HDT So the truth becomes practically invulnerable as there is a practical exemplification of it in persons.

AJG Quite so.

WMcK Is that the world referred to particularly in the aspect as seen in Jericho, which you were referring to this morning?

AJG I believe it is. I think it helps to see that Egypt is the world as a great system going on in independence of God, and we have to be redeemed out of that. I suppose it would be right to say, in the main, we are delivered from the world as a great system. Then Jericho was the great obstruction to the people entering into God’s thoughts for them in the land, but it had to be overthrown. I believe Jericho is not so much a system as principles, principles of the world coming into the Christian circle; and I believe it is in that way that Satan does his utmost to prevent us entering fully into the land; and they have to be overthrown. So it is not a question simply of not loving the world, but not loving the things that are in the world.

PAR Is that overthrown by what is in the ark, represented there?

AJG Yes, the testimony as to the ark. So that we have here, “everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God.” That excludes every other man. Jesus is the Christ; there is only one Christ. He is the anointed of God, and that excludes every other man. We have to keep that in our minds because we so easily admit in our own thoughts and lives the principles of the first man. Jesus is to be before our hearts as the Christ; and then He is the Son of God. He is the great centre of another system altogether, a system of love; and the more these things are before our hearts the more we shall overcome the world.

JFP So that it says characteristically in Hebrews, “by faith the walls of Jericho fell, having been encircled for seven days,” and then following that you get Rahab, that is, personal faith: “by faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with the unbelieving, having received the spies in peace,” Hebrews 11: 30, 31.

AJG Yes, she is an example of the sovereign work of God.

WHL In verses 4 and 5 do we get one great victory that has been completed, “this is the victory which has gotten the victory over the world, our faith,” and then the need with everyone of us being on the line of the overcomer?

AJG I think that is right. I suppose, you might say, in the beginning of the Acts we find there is a victory that got the victory over the world. If you read those few verses in chapters 2 and 4 which describes what marked the early believers, you get the impression that there was a circle there in which every element of the world was excluded, not a single element of selfishness appeared there. So the world is overthrown in that circle. But now it is to be carried forward into our practical experience. “Who is he that gets the victory over the world but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God.”

HDT Would it be right to say that one is presented impersonally and the other is presented very personally? The truth still stands abstractly but it is a question of whether I am in it.

AJG Yes, quite so.

GAL I suppose the Jericho world would contain what John is combating here, evil doctrines that are brought against Christianity?

AJG Quite so, because if evil doctrines are allowed they subvert the whole position.

GAL I was thinking even of sisters being in the gain of this. You get people coming round to the door with subversive literature; so that all are brought into it. Is it not good to have the truth in our souls, and to be able to stand for it and to get this victory over the evil?

AJG Quite so, and hence to know how to apply the test that is given us in chapter 4: “every spirit that does not confess Jesus Christ come in flesh is not of God.” It is a question of what the doctrine says of Christ and how it presents Christ. If it is not absolutely clear as to His Deity and His having become truly Man, then it is to be rejected, it is not of God.

GAL Is it not that there has to be a positive confession of that truth? If it is not a positive confession, then it is not of God.

DMcI This again is intensely individual; it is “every one” in verse 1, and “who is he that gets the victory” in verse 5, and follows up the line we have been pursuing of active faith.

AJG Quite so.

RH The man in John 9 could say, “I believe.” Does he get the victory over the world there?

AJG Yes, he does; he was true to the light he had. That has often been said, and I think we can see it, as John 9 proceeds, that just what measure of light he had he was true to, and the result was that he was cast out; but his being cast out really means he was getting the victory over the world, he was not surrendering any element of truth.

EJH He had the substance of the truth in his soul before the Lord gave him light as to what it meant.

AJG Yes, exactly. So he can say, “one thing I know, whereas I was blind now I see.” So that he was really on the line of this epistle that he knew certain things.

ELM Would he be a characteristic saint who would come into the gain of eternal life in chapter 10?

AJG Yes, I think so. It has often been said he was a sheep that would be placed in the flock in chapter 10, and as we were saying yesterday the Lord gives to the flock, to His sheep, eternal life. So that man certainly would find his place in eternal life.

TJG Referring to the expression “our faith,” would it be right to say that that is the truth as a system given by God outside of human means and received by us outside of human means?

AJG Yes, I suppose so; but what is in your mind in stressing that ‘outside of human means’?

TJG In that it is called “faith.” “Our faith” is the truth as a system, would you say, but called “our faith” because it is given outside of human channels or means and received outside of human means.

AJG Quite so, and because the central object in the faith is Jesus and He is not to be seen: “whom, not having seen, ye love.” We have not yet seen Him; it is a whole system of faith. Unseen things become the life of the saints.

HDT Viewed abstractly what is of God must prevail. But the next verse would stress the importance of our personally being in the good of it.

AJG Yes, I think so.

GM In one sense the victory has been secured, but in our case in order to come into the good of it it involves suffering. Is that wrapped up in John 16: 33, “in the world ye have tribulation, but be of good courage, I have overcome the world”?

AJG Yes, quite so. We were speaking this morning about “that which was from the beginning,” that is, the beginning of Christianity; and the more it is looked at the more the early chapters of the Acts are found to run along with this epistle of John. You find on the day of Pentecost the world was completely overthrown in the souls of those who received the testimony, and you find that which was from the beginning in the early chapter of Acts, following that which is presented in the gospels in regard to Christ personally, which, of course, is what is referred to in the first chapter of this epistle.

FWK Would Colossians bear on this, the saints viewed as complete in Him, and then the system of error at the end of chapter 2; and then the minds of the saints directed to Christ, “your life is hid with Christ in God,” chapter 3: 3? Would that be Paul’s way of presenting this line of the truth?

AJG Yes, pretty much, I suppose. I do not know that in the main we are so much in danger of error - we are not immune from it - but speaking generally those walking in the truth have been brought up in the truth and are not so much in danger of error; we are more in danger of the things that are in the world.

EJH Do we need, therefore, continual believing for continual victory? We cannot say that if we believed some time ago we have overcome the world. Is that not to be maintained all along the line?

AJG I think so, and the principle of feeding, as we were having yesterday, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, and then “eating Me,” as the Lord says.

HDT Does that not lead on to the witness in ourselves?

AJG I think it does. So that we come to these verses, from verse 6 and onwards which are very important, the three-fold witness to the fact that God has given us eternal life and that life is in His Son.

THW You said yesterday afternoon that you had something in mind specifically in relation to “the Spirit is the truth.”

AJG I believe that is a matter of great importance. We have first of all the water and the blood. “This is he that came by water and blood; not by water only but by water and by blood,” and then it says, “it is the Spirit that bears witness.” The Spirit is the positive element and the Spirit is the truth. I think I can see more and more that is one reason why the thought of the Spirit is being so much emphasised amongst us, and we are being exercised as to how far we really touch things in the Spirit every time we come together, because it is what we prove experimentally in the Spirit that really becomes the truth to us.

GAL Would you say it touches the truth of the Spirit as a divine Person, and active as such, as well as indwelling each of us? “The Spirit is the truth,” 1 John 5: 6. He is a divine Person, and the whole of the truth is there in the Spirit, is it not?

AJG Quite so. One may form certain thoughts about the truth which may be accurate; but then in the Spirit, as we move in the Spirit, we may become greatly enlarged. The Spirit Himself is the truth. So that the river in Ezekiel was first up to his ankles, then up to his knees, then to his loins, and then at last it was a river to swim in. It was the same river all along but the more he went on in it the more it enlarged to him.

WS Is not that supported by the fact that the word ‘know’ in this chapter is nearly always conscious knowledge? So that the substance of the epistle is really found here in conscious knowledge.

AJG That is the thought, and we are to come into Christianity consciously and prove the power of it.

RJB So that as coming together particularly in assembly should we prove, not only that we know the truth, but that we have some experience of its working out and its true power and vitality?

AJG That is exactly what one has in mind, and then we discover we have power to move in it in the liberty and dignity and intelligence that the Spirit affords.

AFB You spoke yesterday of active faith: would this be active testimony in relation to the Spirit that the water and the blood bore witness?

AJG The water and the blood clear the ground, you might say. It is the testimony to our souls of the bearing of the death of Christ, the cleansing power of it as setting us apart from all that we were, and the blood as establishing righteous relations with God as well as testifying to divine love. But then, the Spirit is the positive power; it is in the Spirit that we move into the truth.

HDT So that this witness is the witness in ourselves rather than the working out in testimony, is it?

AJG Exactly. It is not the thought of testimony man-ward; it is inward testimony, the witness to ourselves.

WMcK We have been speaking of our faith as being the system of truth. Is the thought of the Spirit being the truth a matter of that becoming substantial with us?

AJG I think so. I believe that is one of our greatest needs at the moment, because we are not without light - we can thank God for that; but our greatest need is the power and the liberty that are in keeping with the light, and that is only in the Spirit.

WS There is rather a remarkable statement of F.E.R.’s that faith is not peculiar to the present dispensation, but conscious knowledge is.

AJG That is all in line with what we are having.

TJG So that the evidence that the truth is substantial with us and we are in it substantially would be that our instinctive behaviour is governed by it.

AJG Yes, because we are viewed here as born of God, therefore our movements normally are the result of nature.

ECM Would you say a word on “he that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself” verse 10?

AJG It is all referring to what the Spirit is to us; the believer has the witness in himself. He does not need to pin his faith on a text of Scripture, but has the witness in himself; he knows that he loves God and loves the brethren and has liberty with God. All that is the witness in himself that the Spirit affords.

GAL In the power of that witness he knows association with the Son of God who is the Head of the great system of which you spoke, the great system of love.

AJG Quite so.

HAH Is this the way God’s world is opened up to us as over against the present world?

AJG I think so, exactly. It is the entrance we have in a real way, not simply as light but as actual power in life, the entrance we have into another world of which Christ is the centre, because God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. We are set up in life in the Son, so that we are really at the very centre of things.

HDT Does this not warrant the statement that has been made that the Spirit of God operates within the limits of faith?

AJG It does indeed, and that is why that statement in chapter 3 is so important that God commands us to believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ. A command is something that is essential, that we are not to disregard.

HDT The witness of the Spirit seems to be confined in this case to those who believe in a present way. “He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself” (verse 10), as though one is contingent upon the other.

AJG Yes, I am sure of that.

AWP Do you mean that what you enter into you are consistent with personally?

AJG Quite so.

AWP There is no divergence, and the way is clear because you are in accordance in every way. The Spirit is the truth but you answer to the Spirit.

AJG The Spirit is leading us into things and is Himself the truth. He is the Spirit of sonship, for instance. He is the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The more we know what the Spirit is to us the more we find that we are actually moving in the truth in these things.

ECM In chapter 1 we have “the eternal life, which was with the Father,” and now that God has given to us eternal life and this life is in His Son. Is it a more fixed matter in connection with the thought of His Son?

AJG Well, it is a fixed matter, I think; that is where the life is. It is not in ourselves, it is in His Son.

HDT In that connection, I would like to ask as to this thought of faith, whether there is not the need for the objective side of the truth to be steadily before the brethren, and commensurately giving place to the Spirit so that there may be correspondence with it? In point of fact what is presented to us in Christ is one of the things which provides the impulse for our exercise in giving place to the Spirit.

AJG I am sure of that.

HDT Because if we take up this thought of the Spirit and the witness in ourselves apart from what is presented to us perfectly in Christ and that which is apprehended by faith, we may become very introspective without very much outlet.

AJG I think so, and hence we need to bear in mind the way Christ has come; He has come by water and blood; that is, there is the setting aside of the man altogether and that leaves us shut up to the Spirit.

GAL So that is the thought in what has just been presented that, you might say, the setting forth of the truth personally is in the Son. The Spirit is the power to make it real to our hearts and to bring us into conformity with it and the Son is the object.

AJG Yes, but the Spirit is positive life; it is not simply giving us light as to things but positive power.

GAL A divine Person in every respect; He is God.

AJG Quite so.

ECM Is there not a touch of peculiar affection in the thought of “his Son”? We noticed this morning, “the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son ... “ and now this life is in His Son (verse 11).

AJG There is, and I think it is a most touching thing that we are really brought into a system of life and blessing which the Godhead has devised of itself, and carries through by itself. We are introduced into it in the Spirit but the Son has effected redemption and the Spirit has come in and taken up His abode in us. So we are really embraced in God, you might say. It is a most touching thing that we are embraced, you might say, in the Father and the Son and the Spirit.

HDT Is it not by that process that what is presented to us as light becomes life in us in the power of the Spirit?

AJG Yes.

ERH Would there be any link between “the unction from the Holy One” in chapter 2, and having the witness in himself in this chapter?

AJG I think the unction is a more limited thought. “The unction” is particularly connected with what the Spirit is to us in the way of intelligence and discernment; intelligence as to the truth and discernment as to what is according to the truth and what is not. I think the unction is, in that sense, a more limited thought. But here the Spirit bears witness because the Spirit is the truth; in the Spirit we move in the truth in the conscious enjoyment of it, the consciousness that we ourselves are equal to it, not in ourselves but in the Spirit.

DMcI Is the expression in the beginning of verse 12, “he that has the Son has life,” a further thing than “he that believes on the Son of God ... “? I was thinking, is it not by the operation of the Spirit that it can be said, “he that has the Son ... “?

AJG I suppose so, yes.

DMcI What does “he that has the Son” really mean for us?

AJG It involves faith on our part, but it involves that the Son is held in our affections, too.

MHT I notice that the statement “the Spirit is the truth” is said to be a reciprocal proposition, that is to say, both sides of the statement are of equal value. It could be said “the truth is the Spirit.” It is very interesting to compare that with the reciprocal proposition of chapter 1 of John’s gospel relative to the Lord personally, where it says that the life was the light of men; verse 4. That, too, can be put round the other way, “the light of men was the life.” I thought you have these two very important statements, one bringing out the objective character of the truth and the other the subjective character.

AJG Quite so. I well remember years ago in a meeting in London we were speaking on “the new and living way,” and Mr. Taylor was asked to explain what it meant, and he said, ‘If you had been in a meeting with Peter and Paul, and you heard them speak to God, you would have got an impression of the new and living way in contrast to all the formality that people are accustomed to in the service of God.’ That is the idea, that “the Spirit is the truth.” You see the thing in the power of the Spirit, you see persons moving in the Spirit and you yourself know a little of it and you are conscious that it is the truth that you are in. It is not just light but it is the real thing that you are moving in in power.

TJG Would there be something of that in the possessive thought referred to, “he that has the Son has life” (verse 12), noticing that in the second epistle, “whosoever goes forward and abides not in the doctrine of the Christ has not God,” 2 John 9? The thing is there in life and power and possessive reality.

AJG Quite so.

THW Is that at all related to the last few verses of Ephesians 3, “according to the power that works in us”?

AJG Well, it is. It is a wonderful thing that the Spirit Himself - and, as has been said more than once, He is God Himself - should come in so that we should be made equal to these great things, in order that the answer in us to what God has proposed from Himself and in Christ should be equal to and worthy of God. So God Himself, in the Spirit, has come in to make it a reality to us.

THW So that in connection with the man in Ezekiel and the measuring of the river, it says on three occasions, “he caused me to pass through,” chapter 47.

AJG Yes. But then in the end he found they were waters he could not pass through, but he could swim in them.

JGW Is what we have in verse 20, “we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ,” a still further truth to our souls?

AJG The apostle is summing things up; he says, “we know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one.” You could not have a more striking statement than that - the circle of the brethren, that is, the children of God, on the one hand, and the world as a system lying in the wicked one! Then it says, “we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true,” that is, God, “and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ.” So that it is a wonderful thing that we come to what is absolutely true, God Himself, and we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ.

ECM Does it not bring out the superiority of Christianity over against everything else?

AJG It does, exactly. It is to establish us, that we can say, “we know” - we are in the thing - we know it.

WMcK It is very striking there is nothing between. It is either a system of truth or a system that lies in the wicked one.

AJG That is so. According to the way the truth is presented in John’s epistle abstractly, but very really, it is just that: either the children of God or the children of the wicked one.

HDT I suppose we will have to face a clearer line of demarcation as time goes on. The nearer the Lord’s return the more the two systems will stand in contrast.

AJG I think that is so. Things have perhaps been to some extent beclouded as to their true character by the influence outwardly that Christianity has had in the countries where it obtained a certain place. Now it is being given up and therefore things are standing out in their true character, either it is what is of God or what is of the devil.

GAL Each thing we have to stand against, each bit of conflict, will raise the question of faith in overcoming the world; the facing of trade unionism is really that in principle. It is in the faith of the Son of God that we overcome the world.

AJG Quite so. But it is a great thing to know God as the One who is true - absolutely reliable.

GAL Everything in Him is truth.

AJG Quite so.

EJH Should we be exercised in the power of the Spirit to draw alongside of Christ, the One who could say that He was “altogether that which I also say to you,” John 8: 25? It says in the footnote, ‘in the principle and universality of what I am. His speech presented Himself, being the truth.’ That is how the epistle ends; apart from the appeal in verse 21, it ends with the statement “he,” that is, Christ, “is the true God and eternal life,” as though we are to keep our attention concentrated on Him. He is the true God and God is perfectly known in Him. Then He is also the eternal life, the setting out in Himself of man in right relations with God.

- .M. As these meetings have been all of a piece, I wondered whether you could go back for a moment to John 6. Would it be out of place to touch again the matter that many seem to have needed help on, the thought of eating the flesh of the Son of man and drinking His blood?

AJG It is a question, I think, of our minds first of all and then by means of the mind the affections, occupying themselves with the fact that Christ came in deliberately to die, because the allusion to His flesh and His blood separately evidently implies His death. It says He came down from heaven and He took up flesh and blood condition deliberately to die, that is, by His death to end that condition and in Himself as Man beyond death to introduce a new condition of life in which we are given part by the Holy Spirit. Therefore we are to feed our minds on that, so that we do not settle down in natural things. It is not simply the setting aside of flesh but the setting aside of the natural order of things in favour of the spiritual.

GAL Would you say that while the eternal life is seen in Christ as to the full expression of it, we could have no part in what was manifested in Christ apart from His death?

AJG None at all. It is only in the Spirit that we touch these things, and we could not possibly have been given the Spirit unless Christ had died.