CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (6)
CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (6)
AJG The last two verses of chapter 20 seem to bring the book to a conclusion, but then this chapter is added as a kind of appendix. I think one can see that the gospel would not be complete without it. In chapter 20 we have been led right up to the highest thoughts of God in Christianity - the greatest spiritual privileges of the assembly and what constitutes our eternal portion, but then in actual fact what the history of the assembly shows, and what our own history will bear witness to, is that we are dependent on the grace of Christ, the gracious service of Christ, to bring us into these things, and to recover us to them if there is at times a measure of departure. So that the gospel seems to finish on that note, a kind of filling out of what we had in chapter 13, that “Jesus ... having loved his own who were in the world, loved them to the end.” Whatever arises in the history of the saints, what secures completion is the love of Christ and its service. So that there is a further manifestation of Jesus; it says, “After these things Jesus manifested himself again,” and then “He manifested himself thus.” No doubt the incident has a certain dispensational bearing but I do not know that we need occupy ourselves with that, but it is striking that it should be a manifestation in connection with certain conditions which obviously are not according to the Lord’s mind. That is, there are seven disciples, not eleven, but seven of them. We have a kind of sectional or independent movement that does not embrace the whole; having its issue in one of them saying, “I go to fish,” and the others saying “We also come with thee.” But what is so striking is that there is not a word of remonstrance or chiding on the part of the Lord, but the most touching expression of grace; bringing before them that He has His own system of warmth and food, and all is really to be connected with that and contributory to it. Then the chapter takes up Peter after that, as the personal object of the Lord’s service so that he might be fully restored and set on lines on which he can go through to a conclusion that glorifies God; Peter being in that way, I believe, in these closing chapters of John’s gospel, a little picture of the assembly in its responsible history, marked by breakdown and utter failure on the one hand, but recovered in the end to real faithfulness. Not that I am speaking, of course, of the outward public profession, but of what is to be seen practically at the end. Peter seems to come into accord with John; John going through, and Peter in the end glorifying God by his death.
HDT As entirely corresponding to Christ.
AJG Yes, exactly. It is a most remarkable thing that in the end Peter was given the privilege, so far as what was outward was concerned, of greater correspondence with Christ than even Paul, in that Peter was crucified, whereas Paul, as a Roman, was beheaded.
SEE Does the Lord expose them by the questions He asks them, He says, “Children, have ye anything to eat?”
AJG Yes. I suppose that brings to light that independent movements that have not the assembly in view will eventually result in the absence of food.
JSE Is it remarkable that in this chapter you have the only time when the sons of Zebedee are put together, but in all the positive details he refers to himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved?
AJG It is very remarkable. It is as though he would not speak of himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved in this setting, but as soon as recovery comes in, in verse 7, he does speak of himself in that way.
JSE Is it to teach us that once we have touched, in the power of the Spirit, the realm and richness of what is spiritual, it is never intended that we should again come under the commanding influence of what is natural, and if we do we retrograde?
AJG I think that is right. I believe it is significant that it was a movement by only seven out of the eleven, and that the Lord meets it, indicating that He has a system of His own characterised by warmth and food, and that they are to see that that is in mind in all their labours.
WSS Was their failure in believing, behind this movement?
AJG I think there would be. You are referring to the last verse of chapter 20?
WSS I was thinking of what you have been saying to us in connection with that verse and chapter 14.
AJG I think what is of the utmost importance at the present time is that we should become characteristically believers - those who recognise that this dispensation is a dispensation of faith. It consists in things that are unseen. “We look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen,” 2 Corinthians 4: 18.
WSS Peter and the others following him would seem to have been allowing their own thoughts to govern them.
AJG Yes.
GAL Peter seems to have lapsed from what the Lord had said to him in the first chapter. If he lapsed that would cause him to take up things on a lower level.
AJG Yes, I think so.
AGB Would you say why the stress seems to be put by John on the thought of manifestation, in verse 14, as being the third time? Is there a distinction between manifestation and appearing?
AJG I think appearing seems to be the Lord bringing Himself deliberately before them in a particular light, but manifestation rather has in view the impression that was left on those to whom He appeared, so that the thought of manifestation occurs frequently in John’s gospel. In chapter 14 the Lord says, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him” (verse 21), and then Judas, not Iscariote, takes up the question, “How is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?” But the idea of manifestation has in view bringing some particular feature of His glory definitely into view.
EuR Would this be linked up with the other two? Does it refer back to the two manifestations in the previous chapter?
AJG Yes, I think so. So the first was to bring out the full light of the heavenly position; the second, apart from this dispensational appearing, was to stress the matter of faith, “Blessed they who have not seen and have believed” (verse 29); and the third is to bring out this feature of His own love and the service of Christ, as that which is to go through to the end, notwithstanding the incidents that may arise in the responsible history of the assembly.
HDT And to prevent us, do you think, from returning to things that we have left, when we have received a call in the testimony?
AJG Yes, I think so, and to leave us with the sense that if we do get into the enjoyment, in any power and reality, of our heavenly portion, it is entirely due to the grace and love of Christ.
HFN Would it be right to regard this chapter as bringing in additional thoughts in regard to the Lord’s glory? We have the personal glory of the Son of God; and then the chapter is bringing in, in the first instance, the Lord in His official glory in relation to headship; and then the Lord’s sovereignty in determining the service of each one of us.
AJG Yes, I am sure that is right and important, too.
Rem As the manifestation was only to the seven, they would be greatly affected by it.
AJG I am sure they would. It would show that the Lord is going after them. There were just seven of them. It was a wrong move and they were leaving out of account the whole number, the whole company.
JSE The manifestation in this chapter is a manifestation of Himself, as over against the earlier part of the gospel where the manifestation is of His glory. What is the distinction between that?
AJG In Cana of Galilee He “manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him” (chapter 2: 11), and I suppose that is a particular feature of His glory, not in a sense connected with His Person, though, of course, it is connected with His Person, but more what He can do; that He can bring in a spiritual order of things that eclipses the best of nature. But here it is a manifestation of Himself. It is, in a sense, what was necessary on account of the defection on the part of His own, and brings out the resources that are there in the love of Christ.
AB Is the gain of the manifestation proved by John personally helping the others into it? It says, “That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved says to Peter, It is the Lord.”
AJG I think that helps, because John, although having his part in the departure at this time, is characteristically one who is near the Lord, and a spiritual person; and it has been said by either or J.B.S. that one mark of a spiritual person is that if he fails he quickly recovers himself.
GCS Are there any appellations attached to these men, the apostles, the disciples, which should have been left behind as entering into the spiritual relationships? They are called “Simon Peter” - could Simon have been left behind? - “Thomas, called Didymus, and Nathaniel who was of Cana of Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee.”
AJG That is rather striking, that there is this which attaches to each one; as you say, a kind of mixture of the natural with the spiritual.
ALRT Is there a link between the early morn in verse 4 of this chapter, and the early morn in verse 1 of chapter 20? I wondered whether it suggested that the recovery, which is brought in in grace in this chapter, is to the fulness of all that is in view in the previous chapter.
AJG I am sure that would be right.
MPS Why is there no record of the Lord terminating any of these three manifestations? In the appearing in Luke He vanished out of their sight, but here He does not terminate the manifestation Himself at all.
AJG No. He does not seem to. I suppose they are to have permanent weight and effect with us.
HFR Is the fire of coals that the Lord used, over against the fire of wood in the end of Acts? I wondered whether that would refer to the outward side of the testimony, but the fire of coals more to the work of God, and what is inward. Is that what we are recovered to?
AJG The work of God? Yes, I suppose so. It is rather significant that we are told it was a fire of coals, because in chapter 18: 18, “The bondmen and officers, having made a fire of coals (for it was cold), stood and warmed themselves; and Peter was standing with them and warming himself.”
Peter was with them and warming himself. There is the suggestion that the Lord has His system as over against the world’s system, and this fire of coals would speak particularly to Peter after he had warmed himself beside the other fire of coals.
EuR Has it not been said that it was a dignified feast, “Come and dine”?
AJG Yes, I think so, and it is a fire of coals, and fish laid on it, and bread. It had all been provided apparently by the Lord Himself, and then it says in verse 13, “Jesus comes and takes the bread and gives it to them, and the fish in like manner.” It has been remarked that in John’s gospel the Lord does everything Himself, and this, perhaps, is the final example of it.
HDT Carrying with it an excess of grace.
AJG Yes, exactly.
HDT May I ask why such a remarkable manifestation was not given in Paul’s list of the appearings of the Lord, in 1 Corinthians 15? Does that have any bearing on the John setting of the truth?
AJG I have no doubt the appearings that Paul records in 1 Corinthians 15 are specific. That is to say each has its own character and part in the establishment of the truth, but then it would not exactly be necessary that he should record all the appearings, would it?
HDT I wondered whether they all had a testimonial bearing. This was more the recovery of the soul to what was constitutionally proper to them.
AJG I think that is so.
HDT And would the feeding, and then the probing, and the report amongst the disciples and the net results at the end, indicate something that the Lord brings about in the souls of those who are really available to Him, although they may come under other influences at times?
AJG Quite so. So that it is very encouraging that we have a kind of guarantee in the grace and love of Christ that His own shall be brought into all that has been in the mind of God for them.
HAH Is the Lord acting mediatorially for us as the Chief Shepherd of the sheep?
AJG I think that would be right. Of course, Luke’s gospel - the last chapter - is perhaps more distinctly the shepherd character of the Lord as going after His sheep, but it certainly appears here, too, and I expect Peter would be particularly affected by it, for he refers in his epistle to the Chief Shepherd.
AH What do you think is the significance of the Lord addressing them as “Children” - the diminutive word - and then enquiring if they have anything to eat?
AJG It is a diminutive, as the note says, “expressing peculiar affection,” so that while there was, perhaps, in result a rebuke in the enquiry “Have ye anything to eat,” the manner of it was not rebuking, it was affectionate and tender.
AH I wondered whether in the Lord’s word there might be the thought for us, at any rate, as to whether we had appropriated all that John ministered earlier, so that we should be saved from such a move as this.
AJG Quite so. I think it is the experience of brethren, whether individually or whether moving together as these did, that if there is departure from having the assembly before us, it results in a condition of having nothing to eat.
HDT What is sectional always leads to poverty.
AJG Exactly.
WSS Does it bring home to us the necessity of being under the Lord’s direction? As soon as He directs, and they cast the net on the right side of the ship, there was abundance of provision which could be brought into what He Himself had already brought for them.
AJG Quite so, and I suppose we may assume that, from one point of view, it is service that may become a snare and turn one aside, because that is what the Lord refers to in His word to Peter, “When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself.” Girding has service in mind, but it is service as self-willed and independent.
WSS Would service of that kind always result in our descending to a lower level? I have been struck with the fact that the three names that have been given are all young men connected with the Jewish system, as if the tendency with us is to revert to a lower level.
AJG Quite so.
AB In regard to the way the Lord directs here, is it a guide, as to the way direction might be administered, not too formally, not too administratively, but nevertheless effectually, because there is affection with it?
AJG I am sure that is important. So that, as I think we remarked once before, in the great administrative epistle - 1st Corinthians - the apostle finishes by saying, “Let all things ye do be done in love.” And it comes to one’s mind in speaking, that we get a wonderful example of that in the way Nathan approached David. When he went to David he did not immediately give him the word that Jehovah had given him to say, but he brought in a parable of his own construction, and caused him to condemn himself even before he heard what Jehovah had to say to him. It was a remarkable touch of skilful dealing in love with one who had deflected.
HDT It does not say He sent a prophet to the king, but He sent Nathan to David. Is it not the absence of what is official that is so striking in this passage?
AJG Yes, it is.
PW Is that why the Lord says, “Bring of the fishes which ye have now taken”?
AJG This is just another example of the wonderful grace of the Lord Jesus, that He accredits them with having taken the fishes. They had taken them, but only after He had entered into the matter and given them direction.
AED The fact that the net did not break - that it remained whole, does that mean that it stands out over against the sectional idea?
AJG Yes. I suppose what the Lord enters into and directs will never break down. You cannot conceive of any rending of the net in these circumstances.
HFN I was only going to ask whether at the close of the dispensation the Spirit of God is not working in a peculiar way in recovery, and how this would add stimulus to us to move in the spirit of which you have spoken.
AJG That is exactly what I had in mind, that the chapter seems to be brought in as a kind of appendix, as though John by the Spirit not only opens out all the truth, but there is this appendix to meet the conditions that are current amongst us, and to show that in the power of the service of the love of Christ we can be brought to it.
AWT Would that enhance the present service of Christ to us in His intercession? I was thinking of this breakdown and the subsequent recovery, and the profound demanding of Jesus in chapter 17 to the Father.
AJG I think so. I am sure we owe far more than we realise to the constant intercession of Christ.
AWT We were profoundly affected by the prayer of chapter 17, and that precedes this, this being an appendix. It is a wonderful setting to the present service of Christ in His intercession and advocacy to us, is it not?
AJG It is. It seems to be the other side of the matter, as though the Lord on the one hand will intercede and supplicate, as you say, but on the other hand He will be active in grace.
JSE He speaks relative to what is normal, does He not?
AJG That is good.
HDT He secures a normal result in the fact that Peter had a commission to feed and to shepherd. That was the result that the Lord had in mind.
AJG I think so, and of course, a man who had himself experienced the grace of Christ would be capacitated to deal tenderly with others.
HDT May I quote a remark of Mr. Darby’s in regard to that very thing, that if we want a man to judge himself we should approach him as a shepherd. Would not shepherding take on largely that character as having learned it from Christ?
AJG And hence that is the way the Lord moves. He feeds them well. “Come and dine,” He says, before He begins to probe Peter.
JGW Have we anything to learn from the fact that it was Simon Peter who suggested the step, and then the way he is recorded as bringing the net full of great fishes? I am wondering whether we have anything to learn in relation to the Lord’s affectionate dealings with him.
AJG I have not anything special in mind. It is characteristic of Peter that he is always in the lead, and that he is marked by a certain energy and so on. He is always in the lead, but in the end he is in the lead rightly. The Lord intended him to be in the lead.
SEE It would appear, according to the third verse, that Simon Peter had influenced John into a wrong course. In the seventh verse it would appear that John was able to influence Peter and bring him on to a right course.
AJG That is very interesting, especially in view of the way that they are seen together in the early chapters of the Acts. There was a link formed between them in affection which you get a sense of in these closing chapters of John’s gospel. In the incident we referred to yesterday. John tells us he was instrumental in taking Peter into the palace of the high priest, and now there is this fact that you are calling attention to.
GCS And there it is Peter and John, and not Simon Peter.
AJG Quite so.
WET Is there anything to be learned from the fact that, when John speaks to him and tells him it is the Lord, Peter casts himself into the sea? I was wondering whether the words of John brought Peter to fear what he was in himself as Simon, and that man has to go completely.
AJG Quite so. We are told that he was naked which I suppose confirms what you are saying, that the word of John brought home to Peter what his real condition was.
HDT It shows, too, that he was putting his best into what he had in hand, but that it was yielding nothing.
AJG Yes.
GAL Peter says, “I go to fish.” The Lord Jesus gave him a great haul of fish and provided a meal of fish and bread.
AJG Well, lambs and sheep have to be cared for and fed, but the food is fish and bread, just as it is in the feeding of the multitude.
GAL I was thinking not just of recovery, but what the Lord had recovered to, and what He had brought out in His own ministry. You remember in Nehemiah that the sheep gate comes first and the fish gate finds its place subsequently, as if it is a question of securing what the Lord was bringing out in His own ministry in this gospel in a peculiar way.
AJG That would be so. I think it is striking that here and in the feeding of the multitude it is fish and bread or bread and fish always; He is the bread of life, but fish refers to the illimitable reserves there are in the Spirit. You cannot number fish, no one knows the number of fish in the sea, and hence, in feeding the saints, while Christ is the main food you must also bring in that you draw on the Spirit so that there is an element of freshness in it.
HDT And the primary requirement in fish is freshness.
AJG Exactly.
HFN Would you say a word as to this distinctive service of Peter, and what is committed to him, because evidently in the epistle Peter tells us that his ministry had been effective. He says, “For ye were going astray as sheep, but have now returned to the shepherd and overseer of your souls,” 1 Peter 2: 25. Would the Lord indicate to Peter that that peculiar ministry was committed to his hands?
AJG Yes, I think so, and first he is really probed to the bottom, so that he is freed of all self-confidence and self-assertiveness. The Lord comes to the root of the matter. First He said, “Lovest thou me more than these?” and then again the second time, “Lovest thou me?” and the third time, “Art thou attached to me?”.
HFN Is it an important principle in recovery, that Peter was recovered first in his private interview, but have we also to be recovered in regard to the brethren? This is done in the presence of the brethren.
AJG That is very encouraging. The Lord would see that recovery is complete, and that the one whom He has recovered privately, is re-established in the confidence of his brethren.
JG Is not the restoration to be in a spirit of meekness according to Galatians 6? It says, “If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness,” verse 1. I thought that was what you had in mind, that the person is to be restored in a spirit of meekness.
AJG That applies to us, that if we attempt to restore any one we are to see that it is in a spirit of meekness, the reason for it being what follows, “considering thyself lest thou also be tempted,” and to recognise that each of us is liable to do the thing that has overcome our brother.
DM Is there a connection between this chapter and verse 23 of the previous one, as to remission of sins coming before the retaining of sins?
AJG I think so. You mean that what characterises the dispensation is that grace is in the ascendency.
HDT Is it not a fact that the disciples as possibly witnessing this would find some kind of echo in all their hearts? What Peter was learning he was learning not only for himself but for everyone.
AJG I am sure of that, but I think you will agree that one of our hardest things is to get rid of self in the things of God, and the Lord seems to be probing Peter that he should get rid of himself.
HDT Quite so.
GCS Does the suggestion “Lovest thou me more than these?” have reference to the fish and his previous work as a fisherman?
AJG I do not think so. I thought it was an allusion to what Peter had said, that although all should deny Him, Peter would not. At the end of chapter 13 the Lord says, “Thou canst not follow me now,” and Peter says, “Why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thee.” What he has got to learn is the love of Christ for him, rather than to think much of his love for Christ.
JSE Are we not all tested in this matter by what is settled and what is active? Do we not find that a constant test to us, and yet the Lord makes what is settled primary, and only refers to what is active the third time.
AJG Yes. You are referring to the two different words the Lord uses, the first word referring to a settled disposition of love, and the other to active love that is called forth by the attractiveness of the one that is loved.
JSE I was struck by the way the Lord approaches Peter, because he always appears in the gospels as peculiarly active. One does not deny his affections in that way, but all the time there seemed to be something that the Lord was aiming for in it, so as to commit the sheep to his care; and one wonders whether we are not all tested in the same connection.
AJG I think so, and I think we can see that at the root of it there was a certain mixture of Peter in it all. Peter did love the Lord, but it was Peter who loved the Lord. I mean that was his own view of the matter, and that is what Peter has got to get rid of.
JSE And right at the end of his own history he says “In brotherly love, love” (2 Peter 1: 7), as though he had reached it.
AJG Quite so.
FVW Is the absence of the “Yea, Lord,” to be noticed in the third time Peter replies?
AJG I think so. I was just thinking of a contrast. This is what we find in Paul. How quickly he came to an end of himself by appropriating the cross. He says, “I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me,” and then he refers to “The Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me,” so that Paul was not occupied with his love for Christ, but with Christ’s love for him.
HFN And it is remarkable that that is spoken to Peter in Galatians 2.
AJG Well, if it is all spoken to Peter, it comes in in that connection.
JMcM Paul speaks of “the grace of our Lord surpassingly over-abounded with faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus,” 1 Timothy 1: 14. Do we see the grace of our Lord and surpassing love in this section?
AJG I think so.
WET When Andrew brings Simon to the Lord in the first chapter, it says, “He led him to Jesus. Jesus looking at him said, Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas (which interpreted is stone).” Is the end reached in this chapter? I was thinking of the name being changed.
AJG Yes. “Thou shalt be called Cephas.” I suppose that is like Adam naming the creatures as they are brought to him, giving each its name, indicating some particular feature of the work of God. He was giving Peter his name, “Thou shalt be called Cephas.”
FCW How far does the thought of manifestation go? I was thinking here of the Lord Himself when He takes the bread and the fishes. He does not give thanks for them as He does in chapter 6. I was wondering how far that would take you in relation to the Person of Christ.
AJG I suppose the particular impression that was to be left upon them was that of the Lord’s recovering grace. That is the idea in manifestation, as far as I understand it.
Ques Why is Peter grieved when the Lord spoke to him three times?
AJG Why is Peter grieved because He speaks to Him the third time? Because the questions were forcing him to face things, and they were really raising the question as to whether he did love the Lord after all his persistence. The Lord knew, of course, that he was equal to the sifting. He knew he could stand the probing, but it was necessary for Peter’s sake that He should get down to rock bottom.
AH Then does not the Lord use Peter’s own words, “Art thou attached to me?” As has been pointed out, all the way through Peter uses that word “attached,” and now the Lord even questions that word with him.
AJG Yes, but now Peter comes out with “Thou knowest that I am attached to thee.” It is a different word implying objective knowledge. Previously it had been conscious knowledge, that is, he had been falling back on what the Lord would know of Himself as knowing all things, but now he says, ‘You have objective knowledge that I am attached to Thee.’ He comes to the point that there is something in him that the Lord can take account of objectively.
FVW Is it true that it was not because the Lord asked three times that he was grieved, but because of the way the Lord put it the third time?
AJG I think so. But now he really comes to the point that there is something there, something that is of God that can be taken account of.
Rem The emphasis is on “Thou.”
AJG Yes, “Thou knowest that I am attached to thee.”
Ques Does that suggest that the others would not have known it?
AJG Well - “Thou knowest,” exactly. It is objective knowledge, and it implies that Peter was now arriving at it that it was not simply a question of casting himself on the divine knowledge that Jesus had, but there was something in Peter that was of God that the Lord could take account of. That is what we have to come to, that the only thing we can trust in ourselves is the work of God.
EBL Did you say that Peter had to come to where John was, that Jesus loved him. Did you say that?
AJG I do not know whether I said it, but I think it is true.
EBL And is it not as we come to the love of Christ that we come into the eternal thoughts of God.
AJG Yes, quite so.
HFN Would you say a word in relation to this peculiar discipline of Peter’s, and then the touching way in which the Lord takes account of the moral halo around Peter’s head? Does the Lord use affection and wisdom, for instance Paul having a thorn in the flesh and Peter having this peculiar character of discipline?
AJG I suppose so, but it seems to me to be a peculiar favour conferred on Peter that, now that he has come to this point that the only thing that can be relied upon is what is of God in himself, now that his own devotedness breaks down, he is brought to this, that he will be delivered from all self and activity of self. “When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst where thou desiredst; but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and bring thee where thou dost not desire. But he said this signifying by what death he should glorify God.”
HDT Are you reminded of Paul’s words to the Philippians, “becoming obedient even unto death, and that the death of the cross,” Philippians 2: 8? There was to be something corresponding morally with that in Peter at the end.
AJG Exactly. It is a marvellous result of the work of God in one like Peter, and how, as coming under the influence of Christ, all that marked Peter naturally gradually disappears and is displaced, and then at the end he finishes his course in exact correspondence with Christ.
AH He speaks of this matter of his dying in a manner to glorify God, in his second epistle, as a manifestation.
AJG He does. It is worth referring to that passage in 2 Peter 1: 13. He says, “I account it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance, knowing that the putting off my tabernacle is speedily to take place, as also our Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to me.” He speaks of it in that simple way, the putting off of his tabernacle is speedily to take place. He is not telling those to whom he writes his epistle that he is going to be crucified, but he says it is the putting off of his tabernacle as the Lord Jesus Christ has manifested to him.
EuR Would it be right to say that these two last chapters run together? Is it in recovered persons who are the fruit of the Lord’s activity that we find underlying what is normal in days like the present?
AJG I think so, and that service is to come into accord with Christ, because I believe the allusion to “When thou wast young thou girdedst thyself” is to service, but service with a good deal of self mixed up in it, and all that is to disappear.
WSS Is what is said in verse 20 corrective of that? I was thinking of “the disciple whom Jesus loved ... who also leaned at supper on his breast.”
AJG And he was following. Peter sees “the disciple whom Jesus loved following.” This is the last word to Peter, “Follow me,” but John was already doing it. He did not need to be told to do it.
WSS I was wondering whether the following flows from our position at the Supper. I thought it seemed very significant that it is expressed in this way, “the disciple whom Jesus loved following, who also leaned at supper on his breast.” The one here in nearness to Christ is the one who followed, and I wondered whether it bore on our position at the Supper.
AJG I am sure that is right. We are continually renewed at the Supper in the appreciation of Christ and His love and His faithfulness. So that it was just after that occasion, when John was leaning on the breast of Jesus and asked who it should be who would betray Him, that Peter said, “Why cannot I follow thee now,” but he has to learn to follow as affected by the love of Christ and not having himself before him.
GCS Is there a suggestion that we learn things in two ways; Peter in this way, and John on the bosom of Jesus.
AJG Quite so.
GCS It speaks of stretching out his hands. What does that refer to?
AJG It is an allusion to the fact that he would be crucified. One is not saying anything against what Mr. N. said, but I had not regarded this as primarily the thought of discipline, but rather the Lord indicating to Peter the end that he would reach, not so much the process by which he would reach it, but the end that he would reach. He would glorify God by being completely in correspondence with Christ.
HFN Would you mind saying that again, because it has always been taken as the Lord indicating to Peter the character of his discipline, and that he had to carry this to the end of his days. You do not think that is quite the thought?
AJG I think the thought is that the Lord was indicating to Peter that he would close his days not only by being martyred, but martyred by way of crucifixion - stretching forth his hands - and that is not the idea of discipline, because discipline is a kind of process, but this is the glorious end that he would reach.
HFN I think that is right, and I am glad to be corrected in regard to it. Then Peter has to be dealt with by the Lord in relation to the Lord’s sovereign disposition of His own, has he not? Is it not a great challenge in this chapter?
AJG You are referring to the way that Peter says, “Lord, and what of this man?” The Lord says, “If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?”
HFN What would you say as to that?
AJG We all have to recognise the absolute sovereignty of the Lord to take up whom He will and do what He pleases with those He takes up. The failure to recognise the sovereignty of the Lord in raising up to leadership whom He pleases, has been the occasion of many missing their way.
HFN Exactly.
EuR Does it suggest that if we get our eye on the Lord’s service, we get it off the Lord Himself?
AJG Exactly.
AH You referred to 2 Samuel 12 in relation to the recovery of David. Does Psalm 51 prove the result of these exercises being really met by David with God?
AJG It does. It is in that Psalm that David says, “Thou wilt have truth in the inward parts.” I venture to say that is continually pressing upon my mind. I think I can say that I believe it is something the Lord is insisting upon now, truth in the inward parts.
AH And leading up to the last verse of that Psalm where burnt offerings are presented to God, as if the service of God goes on in greater enrichment.
AJG As a result of it, yes, but I believe one great result of the increasing recognition of the Holy Spirit, in His abiding presence with us, is truth in the inward parts.
JGW Have you any thought in relation to verse 23 especially, in view of many inaccurate statements that find their way around? I wondered whether this is recorded for a purpose.
AJG It is constantly a matter of comment amongst us that so many inaccurate reports get about, and hence the apostle says, in verse 24, “This is the disciple who bears witness concerning these things, and who has written these things; and we know that his witness is true.” He makes much of that in this gospel, that the witness he bears is true. I suppose it is just a reminder to us to be careful that what we do pass on in the way of information is true.
WSS Would verse 23 be an indication to us from the Lord that the disciple whom Jesus loved - that kind of a disciple would be with us to the end of the dispensation?
AJG Yes, and the importance of taking account of what the Lord does say, or of what others say. So that the Lord does not explain His meaning, but it says, “Jesus did not say to him, He does not die; but, If I will that he abide until I come, what is that to thee?” What is said is just left, and we are to arrive at the meaning of it, but we are not to put another construction on it.
EWC What about “Follow thou me”?
AJG It is the last recorded word to Peter, and the emphasis is on the “Thou” - “Follow thou me,” so that if each of us realises that he can find something of himself in Peter, or something of Peter in himself, that is a word to us, “Follow thou me.”
HDT The path of following is really greater than the path of service, in one sense.
AJG Yes, it is.
ETS What is the thought of “one by one,” as to the things that Jesus did, in the last verse? Why is it “one by one”?
AJG Because each of them is of such value that you would not like to speak of them in bulk. You remember the voice from heaven when Jesus was about thirty years old, “In thee I have found my delight.” The Father says, “I have found,” referring doubtless to what Jesus had been under His eye,
including many things He did even during the thirty years of private life. They were of such value that if they were written one by one the world itself could not contain the books that could be written. It brings out the greatness of the assembly as the vessel intended to display the fulness of Christ.
JMcK Is there a difference between the end of chapter 20 and this? In chapter 20 it says, “These are written,” referring to the signs which are somewhat restricted in number but sufficient to bring out the glory of the Son of God, whereas chapter 21 is more the continual activity of grace and there is no limit to that, is there?
AJG No, exactly.
JMcK Is it striking what is said in verse 14, as though it left room for many other subsequent occasions?
AJG Yes, and I suppose the things that Jesus did would include not only things which had a testimonial or instructional purpose, but just what He was Himself coming out in the things He did. I suppose really they all come out in His body, the assembly; the saints as formed and moving under the influence of Christ will do the same things that Jesus did. I take it it will take the whole assembly to express the many things which Jesus did.
TJD Is it interesting, this recording of the things that Jesus did, in view of what was said yesterday, that John occupies us mainly with what He said, as opposed to His doings?
AJG Exactly. It is not books that God is working to secure. He is working to secure a vessel which is formed and held under the influence of Christ; so that all the things which Jesus did, which were an expression of Himself, will come out now in the assembly, and especially in the day to come.
MPS In chapter 14 the Spirit is to bring to their remembrance all the things that He had said to them. Is this, which we are speaking of now, flowing out from that?
AJG “All the things which I have said to you.” Well, I do not know that one would specially connect the things that He did with the things that He said. I think the things that He said are for instruction, as far as I understand, but it seems to me that the things that He did are just the expression of Himself.
AB Would that be included in the thought of the assembly as His fulness, “The fulness of him who fills all in all,” Ephesians 1: 23?
AJG That is what I thought.
AB They may not have been exactly recorded, but the result of the impressions is that they are expressed in the assembly.
AJG I think so. The assembly and those who compose it are held and formed under His influence. What Jesus is in Himself in a multitude of ways comes out in the things that He did, and it finds expression in His body, the assembly.
EuR Is it involved in what He said to Paul, “Why dost thou persecute me?”
AJG That is the “Me,” indeed.
FVW Why does not John use a stronger word than “I suppose,” for such a matter?
HFN Is it really a priestly supposition, in contrast to the supposition in chapter 20?
AJG What are you referring to in chapter 20?
HFN “She, supposing that it was the gardener.” This is really John’s priestly supposition as to the Person of Christ.
AJG Yes, I think that is helpful. That is to say, it is not exactly put in an authoritative way. This is what John arrives at as a result of his appreciation of the wonderful fulness there is in Christ.