CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (5)

CHRISTIANITY MARKED BY FINALITY AND STABILITY (5)

John 20: 1 - 31

AJG I think it might be said that the great subject of the chapter is “The first day of the week.” That is it is an entirely new beginning, and points to the new and heavenly character of Christianity, really, in principle, the eternal day, which, of course, we may touch in the Spirit every first day of the week. The chapter begins with the first day of the week, and then again in verse 19, it says, “When therefore it was evening on that day, which was the first day of the week,” so that it seems to me that, the chapter is opening out what belongs essentially to Christianity in its wondrous distinctiveness, and the heavenly relationships which belong to it. And it is setting out the orderly way in which the full thought connected with it has been reached in the opening up of the truth, so that it begins with “Mary of Magdala comes in early morn to the tomb, while it was still dark,” verse 1. That is the day had commenced, but the full light of it was not yet, it was just beginning to dawn. Then it proceeds right through to the end of the day when the full light is shining, and I think there is no doubt that that is where we are now, and I thought we might get a little help together in the first place by tracing the way that the light has gradually developed, until we have been brought into the full light that is proper to this eternal day. Mary of Magdala is, of course, the great outstanding figure, representing affection for Christ that must have the Person of the Lord, and, therefore, it is fitting to take her up as representing the assembly, but bringing in Peter and John also, and then the rest of the brethren, because the assembly is in mind and not the individual.

GCS Is this the basis for our keeping the first day of the week, the Lord’s day?

AJG It is distinguished in that way. It is the Lord’s day, attaching a certain dignity and authority to it. It is not called the Lord’s day here, which, I suppose, would refer more to what it is as contrasted with the other days of the week, but this is the first day of the week, that is it is something entirely new and superseding all that has gone before.

GAL Had you in mind not only the setting aside of the Jewish system, but the opening up of what stands connected with the original thoughts of God?

AJG Yes, exactly, and how we are to be brought into it intelligently. So the first part of the chapter makes a great deal of the tomb - I think there are nine references to the tomb - as though the opening up of the light has commenced with a growing appreciation of all that is involved in the death of Christ. Then, that being apprehended, the Person of Christ comes into view and there are no longer any references to the tomb. I believe there has been a certain orderly way of entering upon the truth, the increasing appreciation, on the one hand, of all that is connected with the death of Christ, and then the Person of Christ as Firstborn from among the dead and His personal glory coming before us.

HDT In that way does Mary Magdalene represent the state of soul capable of receiving the light, as it increases?

AJG Yes, I think so. You might say that in the beginning Peter and John represent the intelligent side of things, and Mary of Magdala more the affectionate side of things, but in the end she embraces both ideas and then becomes more intelligent than they because she has a message direct from the Lord.

HDT It says that “She stooped down into the tomb,” verse 11. I wondered whether she became absolutely and entirely identified with the death of Christ in that sense.

AJG Quite so.

SEE Do you think that, in the unfolding of the truth, in the peculiar light in which it was unfolded in Acts 20, on the occasion of the brethren being gathered together with Paul at Troas, it is significant that the occasion is described as “the first day of the week, we being assembled to break bread”; and then it began, and continued on till midnight, and ended at the break of day? (Acts 20: 7 - 11). I was thinking of your remarks as to the first day of the week as giving character to Christianity, and the extension of the light, and the unfolding of the truth in that peculiar light.

AJG Yes, quite so. So that there was that long discourse of Paul’s which, I suppose, we may understand as being an unfolding of the truth.

EBL Does Mary become a sample of the personnel that form the assembly after she had received the Lord’s communication?

AJG Yes, I would think so. That is one thing that comes into the chapter, that the truth is to be the property of the assembly, and that we must be together in the appreciation of it. So that Peter and John and Mary Magdalene are all brought together at the beginning; and, as has often been pointed out, John (although not named) runs faster than Peter, that is, some of us are able to apprehend the truth more quickly than others, but Peter, on the other hand, goes further into things than John. We have to learn to get on together, and to merge together and get the value of each other, all that enters into the constitution of the assembly.

GAL Is it not remarkable that Mary is the first one to run (verse 2), showing her devotion of heart?

AJG Well, it is very striking what energy the chapter shows.

HFN Would you say a little more about the personnel of the saints, and the relation of the death of Christ to the development of the truth in this chapter, first in relation to the truth of the death of Christ, and then to the Person of Christ, as applying it a little to the present moment?

AJG It is noticeable that down to verse 11 we get frequent allusions to the tomb, and after that we hear no more about the tomb, but immediately after that - or practically immediately after that - the Lord Himself comes into view. In verse 4 we find it said that “The other disciple ... came first to the tomb, and stooping down he sees the linen cloths lying; he did not however go in.” Then Simon comes and sees something more, “The linen cloths lying, and the handkerchief which was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a distinct place by itself” (verse 7), and then further Mary stoops down, and she sees “Two angels sitting in white garments, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain,” verse 12. I thought all that was very suggestive of the truth gradually opening up as the death of Christ becomes the subject of enquiry. Would you say that?

HFN I would indeed. Would that have its bearing in relation to the holy sufferings of the Lord, in relation to the Supper, and what has come into peculiar prominence in relation to His Person?

AJG I think so. I think one can see, looking back a little over one’s impressions of the course of the testimony during the past, perhaps sixty years, that in the early days there was necessarily great stress laid on the fact of righteousness having been established in the death of Christ, and that would be the linen cloths lying, a testimony of righteousness established in the death of Christ, because all that is to follow must be firmly founded. Then we get the linen cloths lying and the handkerchief that was upon His head, that is that attention was being called to the distinction of the glory of the Person who has lain in death, because the handkerchief was in a distinct place by itself.

HFN I think we were all impressed by your remark yesterday in relation to the fact that the same principles that marked the truth as coming out in the apostolic day marked the recovery. I was wondering whether you had that in mind in this chapter, that in the opening out of the truth the same principles that marked the recovery are to come into the present time.

AJG I think that is so. Just as far as one has been able to observe from one’s own experience and from what one has read and heard, I think we can see that the recovery of the truth has proceeded in an orderly way. It started in laying a basis firmly in what was fundamental in the establishment of righteousness in the death of Christ and every moral question met there, and then other things could be developed out of that.

HDT Would you agree that, whilst that is the way in which the truth is being developed historically, it is also the way we travel in our souls?

AJG Exactly. It is not exactly the line of God’s purpose being immediately brought into view, but the way that those who are in His purpose are being brought into it experimentally.

HDT So that there is need for ministry that gathers it all up in an intelligent way for the generation that is present?

AJG Yes, exactly.

ETS Would you go on to what you were saying as to what is seen in the tomb, “Two angels sitting in white garments, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain,” verse 12.

AJG Before we come to that, the second distinctive feature was “The handkerchief which was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a distinct place by itself.” That is Peter’s attention is drawn now to that which spoke to him of the head of Jesus, that is, the personal glory of the One who had lain in death, and that means that resurrection must come into view. “They had not yet known the scripture, that he must rise from among the dead” (verse 9), and that it was not possible that He should be holden of it. All God’s purposes are coming into view because of the fact that He had lain in death, and He must come out of it.

EuR It says earlier in this gospel, “I am the resurrection and the life,” John 11: 25.

AJG That is good. That helps, I am sure.

EuR I was wondering whether we do not need to emphasise burial as well as death here. I was thinking of Colossians 2: 12, “Buried with him in baptism.” Is that what this is the basis for?

AJG Well, I think so. Because, as Mr. T. was saying, Mary of Magdala seems to go further than Peter goes, she stoops down into the tomb, as though, as the truth unfolds, there is an increasing committal to all that is involved in the death of Christ; and that, I am sure, is needed if we are to reach the full thought of the assembly in power.

HG Would you say something as to “As therefore she wept, she stooped down into the tomb, and beholds two angels sitting,” verse 11, 12?

AJG I suppose the Spirit of God is stressing affection here, on the one hand, and also bringing into view her ignorance, because Mary of Bethany was not marked by these features, not that she is seen in this chapter at all, but she was not marked by these features. So that, while Mary of Magdala indicates affection for Christ, she also indicates ignorance, so that the Lord says, and also the angel says, “Woman, why dost thou weep?” verse 13, 15. But it is said that Mary of Magdala beholds two angels sitting in white garments, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain, so that now the head is brought under her notice, and the feet are brought under her notice, and there is the suggestion of the body, “where the body of Jesus had lain.” Of course, it was His own personal body, but there is the suggestion of the head, and then movement, and then the body, so that it is not now only the glory of the Son of God having lain in death and brought resurrection in in His own Person, but then there is the thought that He is in movement. It brings out the full thought of the assembly as the body of Christ, and then He is the Head, and then there is movement resulting from it, movement, of course, God-ward.

EuR Is that not the great point in Colossians 1, the greatness of the Head, “And he is before all, and all things subsist together by him. And he is the head of the body, the assembly; who is the beginning, firstborn from among the dead, that he might have the first place in all things,” Colossians 1: 17, 18?

AJG Yes, quite so.

JSE Had you anything further to say as to the contrast between Mary of Bethany, in chapter 12, and Mary here?

AJG One does not want to make too much of it, because Mary of Bethany is not mentioned in this chapter, but it is significant that she is marked by remarkable intelligence when she anoints the feet of the Lord, and so she is not seen at the cross and she is not seen here; she is not weeping, and in a sense she disappears from view. She seems to be marked by remarkable intelligence, which Mary of Magdala has to be brought to, and so the angel says, “Woman, why dost thou weep?” and the Lord says the same thing.

JSE All I had in mind was that they each seem to stand in relation to a climax in the narrative. Bearing in mind what you remarked in the first reading, as to the opening of chapter 13 being marked by the Lord going into final conditions, does this chapter suggest how we are not only to understand but to enjoy our association with Christ now, and in those conditions?

AJG I think so, indeed, and one does not want to say a word to cast any aspersion upon Mary of Magdala, because it is clear that the Spirit of God is making much of her, and, if for the minute she is not fully intelligent, the Lord sees that the affection that is there is rewarded with full intelligence.

JFG Are you suggesting that these different features connected with the tomb must be entered into by us, in the power of the Spirit, if we are to embrace this first day of the week?

AJG That is what I thought, that all this comes to light in sequence as a result of occupation with the tomb. The death of Christ and the fact that He has lain in death is a great subject of contemplation, and we are gradually coming to appreciate how every moral issue has been settled. Then there is the bringing to light of all that God has in His eternal purposes, and that involves the assembly as of Him.

GAL Is it interesting, in connection with your third point, to see the place that the angels have, because that is seen peculiarly in connection with Christ’s glory in headship? Ephesians 1 shows His glory as over the whole heavenly host. Here they seem to be serving in that connection.

AJG Well, just to call attention to the head and the feet and where the body of Jesus had lain - a remarkable expression “had lain,” not ‘had been laid’ but “had lain” - all suggesting that side of His own movements (even lying in death of Himself) to bring out all that God has had in His mind.

WSS Would the reference to the Lord’s remark in chapter 2, in relation to His body, be helpful? He said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” John 2: 19. His disciples remembered afterwards that He had said this, and believed the scripture and the word which Jesus had spoken.

AJG Yes, quite so. “I will raise it up,” and that that is in keeping with what the Lord says in chapter 10: 17, “On this account the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it again.”

WSS I was thinking of your reference to the body, in relation to the assembly becoming the temple. Would that confirm your thoughts in regard to the reference to the body in the passage which we are considering?

AJG Well, of course, in the reference in chapter 2 the Lord was speaking of His own body, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” I suppose that is His own body, is it not?

WSS I thought that; but I wondered whether the thought carried on to the body, today, as the temple.

AJG Well, perhaps we might read that into it. I mean it perhaps suggests it to our minds.

JSE Is all this rich detail here given because we stand so much in need of teaching as to the death of Christ from the view point of John’s gospel?

AJG I think we do, because we are involved in moral questions which must be solved; but on the other hand there is the line of God’s purpose, and often we find it not too easy to see how the two lines are reconciled. At the same time I think the more we contemplate the way that the Son of God has entered into death, we see how fully every moral question has been settled, and then God is able to bring to pass His thoughts by operating in a sphere of life, and bringing in life and quickening in relation to Christ, quickening us with Christ.

GAL In that way would you say that when the Lord Jesus said, “Mary,” He was speaking as the Son of God in power, and quickening her by the sound of His voice?

AJG I think that would be right. She immediately responds, so that life immediately comes into view in her, you may say.

HDT Would you also agree that, whilst a new phase was before the Lord, and indeed before Mary, that the word “Mary” would imply the previous history that is given us in the gospels? The line of purpose is entered upon, do you not think, as the soul is enriched by experience in a moral sphere? I was thinking of your speaking of the moral line, and then the line of purpose. The line of purpose is by itself and distinct, and yet in the ways of God we are to enter upon that as enriched by experience with Him in the sphere of moral exercise. So when the Lord called her “Mary,” all her previous experience with Him would be called into activity, would it not?

AJG Quite so. It is what she was, you might say, as an individual, in her own soul history; but, when you say that all that was connected with her morally came into view, it is not the past history that comes into view, for that has been closed up, but her knowledge of Christ that has been acquired in it.

JSE Is there need of teaching, in this connection, for ourselves?

AJG Exactly.

MPS Would you explain why forgiveness of sins, in relation to individuals, is not stressed in John’s gospel, whereas it is in the synoptic gospels?

AJG I think it is because the standpoint in John’s gospel is that of a generation being born of God, so that it is entirely a new beginning. From the very beginning of John’s gospel the Lord “came to his own, and his own received him not” (John 1: 11), and “He was in the world, and the world had its being through him, and the world knew him not,” verse 10. That is the utter incapacity of man in the flesh to appreciate the true light is shown at the very outset. But then there were those who received Him, and they “have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God,” verse 13. So that John’s gospel presents things from that standpoint, that God is operating from the very outset. Hence the teaching of the gospel, beginning with chapter 3, presents new birth.

JGW Would you say a little more as to the progress of intelligence? Mary, if I understand aright, is representing the assembly, at the grave position, in her soul, as referred to in verse 2, “We know not where they have laid him.” But when it comes to the Lord’s own personal dealings with her, resulting from her own devotion to Him personally, she says in verse 13, “Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.” I would like to ask you whether this growth of intelligence results from a personal love for the Lord Himself.

AJG I think that would be right. I think what you say is good, that at the beginning she evidently has the collective idea in mind. She says “They have taken away the Lord.” That is a title by which she and Peter and John all appreciated and spoke of the Lord. “They have taken away the Lord ... and we know not where they have laid him,” verse 2. Then there is the individual side with her, and, of course, in its own setting, we must all cultivate and maintain our own individual history and links with the Lord; but then there is a danger,

sometimes, of that having too much place, and there was the danger with Mary, because she says to the Lord, “Rabboni,” which means ‘My teacher.’ It is good to recognise Him as Teacher, but not to attach Him to oneself only. The Lord would say, “Touch me not” - the idea of detaching her so that she may learn to connect herself with Him and His own.

JSE To whom did she say “My Lord”?

AJG To the angels, was it not?

JSE Is it not significant that it was to the angels?

AJG I think so. I thought it was fitting.

JSE She could not with equal freedom say “The Lord” to the angels, as she did to Peter and the other disciples, could she?

AJG No, I think not.

JSE Is that enlarged intelligence on her part?

AJG I think so, yes.

EBL Would you say that the great feature with Mary was that she loved our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruption, and love divine must respond to it, and so she receives the greatest message which sets her in the assembly? Would you say that?

AJG Yes, I would.

HFN Might we have a little development now of your second thought? You have spoken of the death of Christ and its bearing. Now may we have a little developed as to the truth of His Person?

AJG The whole truth is opened up now, is it not, in connection with the Person of Christ? So that He says, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life,” John 14: 6. Hence immediately He says to Mary, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God,” verse 17. So that, in a very few words, the whole truth of what is distinctively heavenly and precious as connected with Christianity is opened up, and it all stands in appreciating now the Person of Christ. That is Christ has to be contemplated as the Son in relation to His Father, and He is also to be contemplated as Man in relation to His God.

AH In connection with the Person of Christ, why does John tell us that Mary supposed that He was the gardener? Is there any moral teaching in that for us? I wondered whether the fact that she was not completely turned round had something to do with it.

AJG I suppose it might carry the suggestion that she was still looking for the beautifying of things here, and all that is seen, whereas the Lord was indicating that it was an entirely new scene, and a new order of relationships and blessings, that was to be opened up.

AH That is what I was thinking.

HFN May we not ourselves fall into the same position? May we not regard the Lord as the gardener, as doing that work? At the Supper, do we not sometimes put the Lord on the throne, and, as a result, we see Him in millennial conditions; but, if we grasped what you have been speaking of, the Lord in ascension, we should see Him in eternal conditions?

AJG I am sure that is right, and I think every heart would bear witness that our natural tendency is to long for millennial conditions, because it is nature at its best, whereas what the Lord is introducing is spiritual and heavenly conditions. We sometimes want to settle in the best that is of nature, do you not think?

HFN Yes, I do.

GAL Would it not also suggest that, while affection may give us to die with Christ, we are entirely dependent upon divine power to be with Christ, and to be with Him in the realm that is spiritual?

AJG Yes, I am sure.

AB You were referring to the distinctiveness of the Lord’s glory. Do His words to Mary indicate His own peculiar glory with His Father and His God, and His glory in association with His brethren, “I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God,” verse 17? Are there two great thoughts there, His own distinctive and personal glory as with His God and Father, and then His glory as in association with His brethren?

AJG I think so. So that we must have “My Father” before we get “Your Father,” and we must have “My God” before we can have “Your God.” The Lord’s own personal distinction must be there, and we learn our side of the truth by contemplating Him in His position, do you not think?

AB Yes. Does not His own position draw forth the spirit of adoration, in the sense of His own unique and glorious Person, and then the blessedness of nearness to Him, as in association with Him?

AJG Exactly. So that He says, “That where I am ye also may be” (John 14: 3), and again in chapter 17: 24, “I desire that where I am they also may be with me.” So that the great thing is to appreciate Christ as He is, and we shall have little difficulty in apprehending our part.

HAH Do you get a link between that and the service in Hebrews 2: 12, “I will declare thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”? We sometimes feel that there needs to be a change of position in relation to going to the Father. Is that correct?

AJG What do you mean by a change of position?

HAH Well, is not the assembly viewed as a heavenly vessel in which the service is carried on?

AJG Yes, I think so. I think what you have in mind is that sometimes there is a tendency to think that a part of the service belongs to the assembly, and part of the service belongs to the saints as sons, or something like that. I think we are all feeling that we have much to learn in these great matters, but, as far as I can see, it is unwise to attempt, for instance, to distinguish too rigidly between the thought of sonship and that of the assembly. It is clear that sonship is an individual thought, and involves the pleasure that God has in His saints, and that the assembly is the collective thought and is an entity, and stands as an entity in relation to Christ, and is under the hand of Christ in relation to the service of God; but, after all, the service of the assembly is carried on in sonship, and there is no other spirit marking the response of the assembly than the spirit of sonship.

EuR Is not the basis of both that we have to take account of ourselves as Christ’s brethren, a heavenly company, of His own order, finding our origin in His death and resurrection?

AJG Yes, exactly. Hence, while the chapter begins with disciples, as soon as the Lord speaks to Mary of Magdala He says, “Go to my brethren ... “ He introduces that relationship at once, and that underlies all that follows.

EuR Really there is no rise in level, is there? The level of the service, if we may so speak, the level of the brethren, of the bride, and of the sons is equal, is it not?

AJG Yes, as far as I understand it, that is so.

ALRT Does verse 17, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father,” indicate that all our links in the assembly are with Him in His ascended position, and not simply as risen from the dead?

AJG Oh yes, I think so. The assembly’s distinctive portion is not on resurrection ground, but on the ground of ascension.

GCS What is the difference between this and Luke, where He says, “Handle me and see, for a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having,” Luke 24: 39?

AJG Luke is rather presenting things from the standpoint of the actual things found among us, where there may be a good deal of unbelief or uncertainty operating, and the Lord graciously taking account of these conditions and meeting them.

GCS And Luke would be more in relation to the resurrection, whereas this is in relation to the assembly?

AJG Yes, that would be true.

HDT Would Luke take you no further than the local position, whereas John certainly does - bringing in the link the assembly has with Christ as ascended, which is not a local thought at all?

AJG Exactly, and Luke, as you say, is really the local position, although there is just a suggestion of the local position linking on consciously with the universal position, for when He says to them, “Have ye anything here to eat?” they give Him just part of a broiled fish and of a honeycomb (Luke 24: 41, 42), so that it was just part of the whole.

JSE Is the key to all this in the word that Mr. H. referred to, as to turning round? While it is not in itself final, it makes way for teaching in the soul of the subject, so that she is connected with what is final. Is there not a need for us to enter into this matter of turning round?

AJG Quite. We need to get an entirely new outlook and a heavenly outlook, because I am sure that we cling much more than we realise to what is of earth and of nature, but it is a spiritual and heavenly order of blessing that God has been pleased to bring us into.

HFN Would you say a word relation to this opening out of the glory of the Lord, in regard to the distinctive glory of ascension? Is it right that the assembly is the only family to enter into the distinctive truth of ascension?

AJG I think it must be. There are, of course, other families that are heavenly. We do not know much about them. There are heavenly families as well as earthly families, but I suppose what you say is right, that “I ascend” brings into peculiar prominence the personal glory of the Son of God. I think that puts its stamp upon the assembly’s position. Is that what you had in mind?

HFN That was exactly what was in my mind. Therefore it links on with Ephesians 4, that the One who has ascended is the same One who has “also descended into the lower parts of the earth,” Ephesians 4: 9. So we shall not be able to understand “My Father, and your Father, ... my God, and your God” (John 20: 17), unless we have got the personal glory of Christ in relation to the “I ascend” in our souls, shall we?

AJG No, I do not think we shall, and hence chapter 14 is so important and the way the Lord stresses “Believe also on me” (verse 1) and “Believe me that I am in the Father” (verse 11), and so on. He is insisting on the importance of believing Him and having Him before our hearts, and it is only as we have Him before our hearts that we really learn the truth of our position, do you not think?

HFN Yes, indeed. I was only going to ask you to open out more “My Father, and your Father, ... my God, and your God” (John 20: 17), in order that we might get some distinctive touch from both.

AJG I think we can see that “My Father, and your Father” must come first, and that is that we are introduced to the Father and are brought to Him in this exalted way; that we are brought to Him in association with Christ. But then the knowledge of the Father in this most precious way is really the way in which we are brought into relationship with God. The final thought is God. It is God having Man before Him in sonship for His pleasure, but the great final end is God.

HFN Would that link on with the overcomer in Philadelphia (Revelation 3: 12), where the thought of “My” is brought in five times? I think it has been said that the great feature of the overcomer is that he has the complete thought of Christianity in his soul.

AJG Yes, I think so, surely.

EuR In Ephesians 2: 6 it says, “Has raised us up together, and has made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus.” Is there some relation in that to this “I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God”?

AJG Yes, I think so. “Made us sit down together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus” is just a position of restful elevation, and privilege and blessing in restfulness.

SEE Does the reference to the ascension of Christ in Ephesians 4 go further than what the Lord says in this passage? In Ephesians 4: 10 it says, “Who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.” Here it is “I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.” Does Ephesians 4 go further than what the Lord says here?

AJG I suppose from one point of view it does, because in this chapter the Lord is speaking in reference to His brethren and the thought of identifying us with Himself in the position that He fills as Man. But in Ephesians the great point is to stress the extreme dominance of His present position in view of effecting the pleasure of God in the saints. So that He has gone up far above all heavens that He might fill all things, beyond the created sphere,

entirely beyond the reach of creature interference or anything else, and can work from that standpoint to bring to pass God’s thoughts in His saints.

JSE Does not that keep us in holy balance?

AJG Yes, it does indeed. While the Lord is pleased to identify us with Him, we cannot exactly bind Him to us, He can go above all heavens.

EWC Is “My God, and your God” the highest point?

AJG Yes, I think it would be. It is brought in here as light that would be in their souls as they gathered together. Then the Lord coming in, in verse 19, would confirm them in the possession of the thing.

JMcK Would the way that resurrection and ascension are presented in this chapter - especially ascension - be not in a historical setting or as a matter of time, but would it not all help us to take on the elevated thoughts of the assembly?

AJG Yes, I think so, because if once we get into our souls the idea conveyed in the Lord’s words, that “Where I am ye also may be,” I believe all becomes simple. It really becomes a question of contemplating the glory of Christ in His manhood in relation to His Father and His God.

JMcK I wondered whether the truth of ascension, brought in anticipatively, we may say, with all the height of the manifestation, would begin with verse 19.

AJG I think it would. They would come together with that message in their minds, and they would have nothing else than that before them. Is that what you have in mind?

JMcK It was just that that I had in mind. Is there not a great need with us all to take on what is elevated and heavenly, and belonging to our heavenly part?

AJG I am sure there is. On the other hand there is the gracious service of Christ that enables us to take it on without any unreality, and I believe that is involved in His showing them His hands before He showed them His side.

JSE Is this the substantial answer to the question of Judas, not Iscariote, in John 14: 22, “Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world”?

AJG Yes, it is the answer in love, is it not?

EuR What had you in mind in referring to the hands before the side?

AJG It says, “Jesus came and stood in the midst, and says to them, Peace be to you. And having said this, he shewed to them his hands and his side,” John 20: 19, 20. While His hands refer, I suppose, to the way love has served, my impression is that thus it is connected with the cup, because in the cup we see the way that the personal love of Christ has served us even to death, and that is intended to set us entirely free from all that is connected with the old. It is the way love serves to set us free entirely to take on the light connected with His side, that we are entirely of Him.

JSE Is that the reason why the emphasis is on the “you” in connection with the cup?

AJG I think so.

FMcE Is this a verification of the Lord’s own words to His disciples in John 16: 22, “I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one takes from you”?

AJG I am sure that is so. There cannot be any greater joy than the consciousness of our part with Christ in heavenly relationships.

HFN Would the thought of the Lord’s hands have reference to the cup, and then would the Lord showing His side give an incentive to marital response in the assembly?

AJG Oh, I think so, because the side would remind us that He has lain in death in order that we might be brought into being as entirely of Himself, and suited to Himself, and to have a place by His side.

HDT Is it significant that, whilst the Objective (speaking reverently) is His Father and His God, yet en route - as coming into the midst of His disciples - He showed them His hands and His side? Would that be warrant for our giving special attention to what Christ has for Himself in the assembly?

AJG I am sure, because we must be confirmed in a fresh sense of enjoyment of what the assembly is to Christ, before we can enter with Him into those relationships, do you not think?

HDT I was wondering whether it would give us an outlook into the sphere of the enjoyment of the truth of union, for where that is enjoyed there is great power in our souls to go on into all that the Lord has in mind.

AJG Surely, and there is no real power to enter upon our distinctive heavenly portion in relation to the Father and God, save as union is enjoyed.

JSE Does the expression “He took one of his ribs and closed up flesh in its stead” (Genesis 2: 21) link with His hands and His side here - with His side particularly? Mr. Taylor has remarked that our place in the joy of union is the secret of any further movement. There is this thought of His side, and the type coming in as to the closing up of the flesh, showing that all that we are to enjoy, whether in association or in union with Christ, cannot be known or even apprehended according to the flesh, but only in the power of His present life.

AJG That is true. Whether that is the force of the statement in Genesis, that God closed up the side of Adam, I am not quite sure, but it is certainly true.

GAL Does not all this show how dependent we are on the leadership of Christ to enter into these blessed relationships? It is so much more than change of mind; it is a question of the service of Christ to bring us into it.

AJG It is, and therefore we are dependent upon Christ and the love of Christ. We need the support of the love of Christ all the time, do you not think? So that the bride, or loved one, in the Song of Songs, says, “His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me,” chapter 2: 6. There is the thought of intelligence, suggested in “His left hand is under my head.”

AB Would the Lord standing in the midst, taking His place as the Minister of the Sanctuary, be in the way of direction and lead, and would that focus our affections on Him with reverence and adoration?

AJG I think it is most touching what was alluded to earlier by Mr. H., in Hebrews 2: 12. The Lord says, “I will declare thy name to my brethren.” That is that He has a company of those who are worthy of Himself, to whom He delights to declare the Father’s name, but then the response takes place in the assembly, “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises.” It seems to me that there can hardly be anything greater than that.

HAH So at such a moment you would not introduce the words “Where thou art,” as if thinking of the Lord up in heaven, and we down here?

AJG Well, no, you do not want to bring in anything that is suggestive of distance, but, on the other hand, I think we need to bear in mind what Mr. Myles has helpfully said, that, whatever we may enjoy in the way of union, the actual fact remains that we are down here on earth, and we cannot limit the Lord. From one point of view He is in heaven, at the right hand of God, but then we cannot limit Him in His movements; so that we have to remember that, while we touch these things and any sense of distance is removed in the Spirit’s power, yet in fact the other remains true.

GCS We need the power of abstraction.

AJG Yes.

AED Is the vital link in the Holy Spirit?

AJG Yes, the vital link must be in the Holy Spirit, because it is by the Spirit that we are united to Christ and enjoy union.

CEJ I was going to ask, in regard to the matter that has been mentioned as to union, whether that does not link with what the Lord says, “In the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises” (Hebrews 2: 12)?

AJG As far as I understand it, it does, because if the Lord sings He sings by means of His body, that is what His body is for, speaking reverently. It is for the expression of Himself, and I thought “In the midst of the assembly” shows how thoroughly He is identified with the assembly.

AH Will you say a word now as to why, from this position of privilege, the Lord speaks of the testimonial side, “As the Father sent me forth, I also send you”?

AJG I take it that it is because the two have to be maintained until the Lord comes, the side of the service of God and what is for God, on the one hand, and the side of the testimony, on the other; and the side of testimony is to be in keeping with the privilege that is itself heavenly in character.

JSE Is that why a climax appears to be reached at the point where the expression is made: “The disciples rejoiced therefore, having seen the Lord” (John 20: 20)?

AJG Yes, I think it is. It doe; not develop the thought of the service of God, but just gives us what is introductory to it; actually the service has to develop in the power and liberty of the Spirit week after week. The fact that they are spoken of as disciples is interesting. They are brethren in their actual relations, but they are down here and they have to go out in the sphere of testimony, and so they are disciples.

JGW With regard to the question of seeing the Lord, why does the Spirit of God seem to draw special attention to those who had seen the Lord? First of all we have Mary, in her testimony to the disciples; secondly the disciples rejoiced “having seen the Lord”; and thirdly in relation to the testimony of the disciples to Thomas, who was missing when Jesus came, they say “We have seen the Lord.” When we speak of the Lord showing them His hands and His side, is it not necessary to see the Lord wholly, the whole Person of the Lord?

AJG I do not quite know what you have in mind in stressing wholly in contrast to partially. It is just the Lord Himself whom we see, “We have seen the Lord,” verse 25. But I suppose what is being stressed is that it is a peculiar privilege. The dispensation is still one of faith and that is what is being stressed as to Thomas. It is rather striking that it all runs on, it is not put in a separate paragraph, and the point in it is what the Lord says at the end, “Because thou hast seen me thou hast believed: blessed they who have not seen and have believed,” verse 29. The Lord is stressing the greater blessedness of the present moment, which is a dispensation of faith, so that things in that sense are not seen. The Lord does come in from time to time, and make the reality of His presence known to us, but that does not take away from the fact that the dispensation is one of faith.

JSE Does that emphasise the need of making use of the Spirit?

AJG It does, exactly.

HDT And the continuance of faith as an active principle with us?

AJG That is exactly the point, and I believe the Lord is stressing it now; that, along with the recovery of the truth as to the Spirit. He is also stressing the need of faith on our side.

HDT So that it says in the last verse, “That ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name.” The necessity of believing in a continuous characteristic way is stressed.

AJG It is. I believe that last paragraph is one that we ought not to pass by. “Many other signs therefore also Jesus did before his disciples, which are not written in this book; but these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing ye might have life in his name,” verse 30, 31. His name is the whole range of glory, and the truth that is opened up in connection with Him, and we are to have life in that, on the principle of believing.

HG Does that bring us to what has been your basic thought in these meetings, that we are to bear witness to the truth? Is all that we have said this morning to lead us up to that point, that we should also bear witness to it?

AJG Well, of course, the more we are characterised by faith, the more power there will be in bearing witness to the truth. But I think we need to see the importance of active faith. That is not simply confidence in God, but active faith, “We look not at the things that are seen, but at the things that are not seen,” 2 Corinthians 4: 18. There is nothing more important than that we should stress that, and the Spirit will link Himself with that attitude of mind on our part.

WW Is that the thought that lies behind receiving the Holy Spirit - active faith?

AJG Well, I think the thought is that the Lord was giving them His own Spirit, so that any move in administration in His Spirit would result in things being done in His own way.

JSE You mean that He says, “Receive the Holy Spirit”?

AJG It was His own Spirit that He breathed into them, the Spirit of Christ.