THE EXPANSE (2)

THE EXPANSE (2)

Genesis 14: 18 - 24; Genesis 15: 1 - 6; Genesis 22: 11 - 19; Genesis 28: 10 - 19; Genesis 37: 5 - 11

SMcC In considering further the thought of the expanse as the sphere of heavenly power in relation to the earth and a sphere in which God’s operations are proceeding, I thought tonight we might consider these passages which bring us to what is more concrete and practical, as bearing upon ourselves, in relation to the heavenly side. We considered in the earlier reading what was more general linked with the expanse and divine resources in it and there are of course other references that could be made, such as in Noah’s time we have the windows of heaven; and the outlook of the ark, as we know, was towards the expanse, towards heaven. Then after Noah comes out of the ark, we have God’s covenant with Noah, and the bow set in the cloud. That is another delightful reference to the expanse, and divine faithfulness as is suggested in the covenant. But time will not permit going into all that, so I thought we should come over to Abraham and see the new departure in the ways of God, where the heavenly scene opens in such wondrous fulness in the great type we have in this section of Genesis. Up to chapter 12 God was dealing with men generally, in a racial way; but when we come to chapter 12 we get the new departure in the ways of God. In these early chapters of Genesis we get the fulness of the ruin of man. Not only does the race, as the race, sink into the depths of idolatry and the worship of demons, but we have got idolatry in Shem, the line of Shem; showing the great degeneration that came in. The book of Joshua particularly refers to Shem and the idolatry that came into the line of Shem when they worshipped the gods beyond the river. But God intervenes, not now in cleansing power as with the flood, but in a new kind of way, and from that point the heavenly scene opens up in richness and fulness in connection with Abraham. I thought we might begin with chapter 14, where we get this mysterious intervention representing, no doubt, part of the secret resources from the heavenly side that are linked with ruling influence, because Melchisedec is king of Salem. Abraham is returning from the conflict, and there is the rescuing of Lot, who had lost Sight of the expanse, whose outlook was governed by earthly things alone, for he had chosen the well-watered plain of Jordan. But Abraham, whose outlook was governed by the expanse, by what was heavenly, is returning in a victorious way and the hidden resources that are linked with the heavenly position came out to meet him in this great personage Melchisedec, because in Hebrews, the type of Melchisedec is brought in to establish the heavenly priesthood of Christ.

There are three great lines that run through these sections; first there is the line of blessing in connection with Abraham, both in chapter 14 and in chapter 22, where the angel speaks from the heavens. At other times God had come down to Abraham, visited him and spoken to him, but in chapter 22 the angel of Jehovah speaks from the heavens, and blessing is mentioned in a profuse way, in the second speaking. Then in chapter 28 we get Jacob and the dream, and the thought of the link between heaven and earth in the ladder, the angels ascending and descending upon it, and Jacob’s remark as to the house of God and the gate of heaven brings in the thought of dwelling. It is not developed there, but there it is, the house of God and the gate of heaven. Finally in chapter 37 we get Joseph and the dream of Joseph, which brings in the great figures of speech linked with the expanse, the ruling side being particularly in mind in Joseph; it opens up in his exalted position in glory a fulness that exceeds all that went before.

LWT Is there any mysterious reference to Jerusalem, and the place it is to have in the expanse, in the thought of the king of Salem here?

SMcC I suppose there must be some hidden allusion to it. It is interpreted for us in Hebrews, where the Spirit of God through the writer says, “first being interpreted King of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is King of peace,” chapter 7: 2. The elements of the world to come are linked with this royal personage; and blessing comes to Abraham as maintained on the heavenly line.

AJG Is it striking that in Hebrews 11, in the section which begins with Abraham by faith “being called, obeyed to go out,” finishes with “but now they seek a better, that is, a heavenly; wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God” (verses 8 and 16). Does that show how early the idea of expanse entered into the faith of those whom God called?

SMcC It does. That section in Hebrews 11 is a remarkable section as bearing on what we are considering. It shows how the heavenly side outweighs all that is connected with the position here below. Abraham as breathing the native air of the expanse, the heavenly, is thus completely superior to the king of Sodom and his advancements.

AJG And do you think that the fact that Melchisedec is said to be “priest of the Most High God” was intended to impress Abraham from the outset with the idea of God being served, he himself being called to have part in that?

SMcC So that it is interesting in regard to what you have said, that you have the dual reference in the great climax in Psalm 150, “Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in the firmament,” or ‘expanse’,

“of his power.” This thought of the priest of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth, I think would bear on that. What do you think?

AJG Yes, I thought so. It says that Melchisedec said, “Blessed be Abram of the Most High God ... . And blessed be the Most High God.” As though he would suggest to Abraham that he himself is to take up this service of blessing the Most High God.

SMcC Just so. The sanctuary - “Praise God in his sanctuary” - links with what is special and limited in relation to the revelation of God; but the praising Him in the expanse involves the wider and more general sphere in which God is apprehended as operating in relation to His great thoughts, not only including the assembly, but including every family.

AE In the earlier meeting you made some reference to the expanse in connection with recovery or restoration. Would Abraham, as moving in the gain of the expanse, be used to recover his brother Lot?

SMcC That is what enters into the context of the passage that we read. Abraham is on the line of recovering his brother. Which is a great thing. Lot represents, I suppose, the tendency with many, especially the younger ones, to view the well-watered plain of Jordan; whereas Abraham represents those that are maintained in relation to the heavenly line, and as maintained are effective in influencing such as Lot represents.

JAF Is it significant that the first impression that Abraham would have of this heavenly system is one of blessing? I refer to verse 19.

SMcC Yes. That is one of the main thoughts in reading this passage, and in the passage in chapter 22 we see how blessing is linked with this great section where Abraham is before us. Because Abraham is the heavenly man, unofficially. The heavenly side is more seen in Abraham in a practical and concrete way than it is in Isaac, who is the heavenly man officially.

PHH Would Lot, as being recovered, be recovered into this practical matter of blessing; Abraham being blessed, and God being blessed? Would that be in mind, today, for instance, in the great matter of recovery of persons, that they should be brought back into the best that we enjoy together?

SMcC Yes. What an impression Lot would get in this scene. Perhaps we have never thought of Lot in this scene, but he must have been there. He must have been looking on, perhaps, and watching all that was transpiring; and yet later on he departs from it, which is a very humbling matter; but what an impression it should have put upon him, here, in one so great as Abraham, blessed by one so great as Melchisedec.

PHH And would the fact of the Spirit calling him here, “his brother Lot,” be a gracious movement to move himself into such a scene?

SMcC Yes. It is as if heaven would credit him with the best; heaven would clothe him with the best thoughts in this section.

APCL Is there a reason why the name of Jehovah is spoken of as the Most High at this point? It involves what is mighty and powerful, does it not, and yet it is referred to as the Most High?

SMcC Yes. I thought there was a link with the expanse in the title, because the Most High brings in the thought of elevation. Of course it is a millennial title, and in the millennial scene the expanse that God originally made has a peculiar place; but I think the reference to the Most High God is to link our thoughts with the complete superiority of the expanse in a scene where the enemy is moving to hinder the divine right of way.

APCL I was only thinking that while it may not exactly belong to this dispensation, yet the faith of which you have been speaking should carry it fully, do you not think, in our affections as to God?

SMcC It should. So that all the elements of the world to come are known and enjoyed now in the assembly. They affect the assembly now.

APCL I am wondering whether some of our young people are fully alive to the importance of that side of the truth.

SMcC Well, I think it is important that they should see it, as it is presented here, specially this thought in Abram of complete superiority to the advances of the king of Sodom as divinely fortified by one who comes on to the scene mysteriously. It is like what we have read of in the book of Job in relation to the expanse; God is saying, Can you explain these things? Can you unfold light as to these matters? Well, Melchisedec comes in in that mysterious way as a hidden divine reserve and resource to meet faith on the heavenly line.

RDH It says that Melchisedec brought out bread and wine. Is that part of the reserves, and would you say a word on that?

SMcC Yes, the remark of the Spirit through Moses is very interesting, that he “brought out” where did he bring it out from? Well, that is the point in Job. Where do things come from? Can you explain them? And “brought out” means that they are coming out of a sphere where God’s supremacy is known, and honoured, for Melchisedec was priest of the Most High God.

CMM Would the gospel of Luke help as to this title Most High God? I was thinking of the reference “the dayspring from on high has visited us, to shine upon” us, Luke 1: 78. Would it link with the expanse, and God moving in that character, in grace?

SMcC That is very helpful, because Luke would show how the influence of the expanse is to help us at the present time. In Matthew it is in relation to the side of rule; and administration, but in Luke it is in relation to the service of God, the praises of God. So that Luke, as he opens his gospel, would bring us to heaven immediately and impress us with elevated surroundings far morally above the world.

WGJ You referred to the enemy trying to prevent the divine right of way. Is that seen in the Acts, where the female slave with the spirit of Python persisted in following Paul and Silas, and refers to God in this title, the Most High?

SMcC It is remarkable how that title comes in in that section, and how Paul meets it, too. The heavenly line was coming in in Paul’s service and Paul’s ministry, but then you get this evil force that is really in the expanse, operating through this channel in the woman to hinder the divine right of way in Paul in opening up the greatness of the heavenly realm where the assembly in its relations with Christ is to be known.

CH Whereas here, as you say, Abraham is fortified to meet the overtures of the king of Sodom. The context, I think, confirms what you say, in verse 17, the Spirit of God records that the king of Sodom went out to meet him, and in verse 21 he said certain things. But in between that you get this divine visitation.

SMcC It is very interesting that it should specifically say, in verse 17, that the king of Sodom went out to meet him, not to meet the company, not all the servants, trained as they were, nor to meet Lot. He knows what he can do with Lot, you might say, for the enemy knows what he can do with every one of us; but he is concentrating his attention on Abraham. If he can deflect Abraham, he gains a complete victory in the position.

ACC Do you think after the conflict is perhaps the most dangerous time, and hence the need for this ministration of Christ in the bread, and the Spirit to strengthen us secretly, so that we may not fall to the flattery after the conflict?

SMcC Yes. Whatever the bread and wine signify, they are a means of strengthening and support. But they are brought forward in anticipation of the advances of the king of Sodom. It is an interesting thing that it says in verse 19, “he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth.” Now notice that in verse 22 Abraham takes on that language, although he adds a touch of his own; “I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah, the Most High God, possessor of heavens and earth.” The allusion to God as possessor of heavens and earth is very fine at this juncture.

LWT Is it striking that this makes Abraham independent of the king of Sodom, not only generally, but as to these very small details - “a thread even to a sandal-thong”? Would that help us just now?

SMcC It would, that is, as you come on to the heavenly line, things become very delicate and the lines become finely drawn; whereas with Lot, in the general setting, while he has certain things, like unleavened bread, and is called righteous Lot, there seems to be a strange lack of conscience with him as to certain things; so that he becomes enveloped in the affairs of Sodom.

AJG Is it not rather striking that when the seventy return with joy after their victory over the demons, the Lord tells them not to rejoice in that, but to rejoice that their names were written in heaven? And then He immediately rejoices Himself, and addresses the Father as Lord of the heaven and of the earth.

SMcC That is very striking. And the service of God comes in there, does it not?

AJG It is very preservative, I thought. To have part in the service of God would preserve from the inflation we are in danger of as our brother has pointed out.

SMcC Just so. The Lord Jesus says, “I praise thee, Father, Lord of the heaven and of the earth.” He brings in that thought of praise and engages in that feature of service as Man at that juncture, in the light of what had taken place in the dispossession of the power of the enemy.

PHH Is Abraham’s further vision, where he is told to “look now toward the heavens,” to strengthen him in the progeny that was going to be heavenly, like himself, and able to enter into this matter of being supplied from heaven, and enter into the praise of God? In chapter 14 it is the “possessor,” but now I wondered if his looking towards the heavens and God saying “so shall thy seed be” would link us on with the great heavenly company to engage in the praise of God in a heavenly way.

SMcC I think it does. We have the reference in the opening verse of chapter 15 to the word of Jehovah coming to Abram. In chapter 14 Abram says, “I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah,” the use of the name Jehovah there signifying that Abram was in the good of the relationship in which he stood to God. But then in chapter 15 we have “after these things, the word of Jehovah” - not the word of the Most High - “came to Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram; I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward,” as if to confirm him in this great position.

JM Is this the greatest reward that Abraham could possibly have? Does not this far exceed anything that the king of Sodom could possibly have done for him? Jehovah is Himself to be his shield, his exceeding great reward!

SMcC Well, it means, speaking simply, that God was his portion. When we come to the development of the heavenly side in the type in the book of Joshua,

we find that the Levites had no territorial possessions. God was to be their portion. While a lot is made of Abraham’s territorial possessions, yet this brings in a refined spiritual touch that lies behind all, “I am thy shield, thy exceeding great reward.” The nearer we get to God, and the nearer we get to heaven the more God Himself becomes our portion.

JM Should not this help us in regard to the world and worldly associations and so on?

SMcC I think it should. The heavenly line, the line of what is linked with the expanse, is to promote separateness with us, because Abraham is called out, and the path of faith involves that he is maintained in all that is suited to pilgrim life, and the pilgrim path. Therefore he cannot afford to be involved in things here.

ECM Would Hebrews 11: 16 help, where it says “but now they seek a better, that is, a heavenly; wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God”? Does that come in in a peculiar way with Abraham, as you suggest?

SMcC I think it is to weigh very much with us, in our minds and hearts. It says in Isaiah 60, “Arise, shine! for thy light is come.” Ephesians is our light; it is the light of the expanse - the heavenly side, and that is to outweigh everything in our souls. It is not only that the truth has been unfolded in the ministry, affecting us greatly in an objective way, but it is to affect us subjectively in regard to our path through the world.

JMcK Do you think that the elevation of the title the “Most High” would find a moral answer in the worshipper, that he would be elevated?

SMcC That is the point, I think. What strikes you about Abraham is his moral superiority in a general way to circumstances; although we do get the going down to Egypt, yet, in a general way, he is maintained in moral and spiritual elevation in the path of faith.

GHSP Does what is royal come out in Abram in this chapter? Is he really reigning in life? I wondered whether the Spirit of God, in stressing the thought of kingship through the chapter, was helping us to take in the thought that early on in soul experience, true royalty is to attach to those in whom God is operating.

SMcC I think it is, and Romans helps us very much in regard to that. The great thought of blessing in Romans has in mind our reigning in life, that we are superior to our circumstances, and it is on that line that we come into the glory, as it says, “we boast in hope of the glory of God.” Now notice that in chapter 15 there is another added touch by Abraham. We have seen that in chapter 14, verse 22, while he takes on the language of Melchisedec he adds an impression he has of his own, “I have lifted up my hand to Jehovah, the Most High God.” Then in chapter 15: 2 we get, “And Abram said, Lord Jehovah, what wilt thou give me?” That word is the plural of Adon, which is very significant as coming in here.

WH Does his reference to Jehovah suggest a peculiar intimacy with God, that supported him through all the testings?

SMcC I think it does; it is a sense of relationship that is present in his soul. Lot did not have that sense of relationship, and therefore he came under the corrupting power of the world in Sodom. And if we do not have the sense of relationship as moving in the path of faith in relation to the heavenly line, we shall succumb to the overtures of the world.

JTS We have in James 2: 23, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness, and he was called Friend of God,” Does that stand over against what we have in the next chapter,

that whoever will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God? Friendship of the world is enmity against God. Have we the two sides there?

SMcC What an honourable reference that is to Abraham, that he is called Friend of God! I think Jehoshaphat, too, refers to that in a peculiar way when he brings in the thought of love in 2 Chronicles 20: 7, “Hast not thou, our God, dispossessed the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and given it for ever to the seed of Abraham, thy friend?” Mr. Darby gives the added note, in the margin, ‘who loved thee.’ What a reference to Abraham! It says in the New Testament, “But if anyone love God, he is known of him,” 1 Corinthians 8: 3. Abraham was known of God as loving Him.

PHH Does that link on at all with this title ‘Lord Jehovah’? Is ‘Lord Jehovah’ the expression, we might say, called forth in Abram’s soul as being near to God, and owning that everything can come from Him?

SMcC I think so. The use of the plural form is very interesting, because later on in chapter 18 we find the visitation brings in the plural side, but here the plural side is in Abram’s soul before the visitation comes, which is very interesting to notice.

JTW Is that somewhat the same as Exodus 6: 3, where God said, “I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, as the Almighty God; but by my name Jehovah I was not made known to them”? How was it that Abram could use this word so soon?

SMcC The point in that is that God had not revealed Himself in that name as a name of special relationship, as He did with Israel with whom He took the name of Jehovah as a name of special relationship; but it does not mean to say that He was not referred to as Jehovah. God selected that name as the name of special relationship with Israel.

The name with Abraham, was Almighty God; that was the revealed name to Abraham. Now chapters 12, 13 and 14 give us the thought of the heavenly call and its practical bearing upon us, and chapter 15 brings in the suggestion of the right seed. It is a kind of a blending point between chapters 13 and 14, and 15, 16 and 17. Chapter 15 brings in the idea of the right seed; we must keep to the right seed. Then chapters 16 and 17 determine the true mother, the right mother. It is not only important that the right seed should be there, but the right mother should be there.

LWT In regard to these persons now you are bringing before us as coming into the expanse, is the family thought linked with them particularly? You have referred to the seed, and now the mother, and reference was made earlier to the brother.

SMcC You find wonderful amplification of family thoughts on this line. It is interesting to notice that in relation to the epistle to the Ephesians, for Ephesians gives us spiritually the expanse, and it is in that epistle that family thoughts are brought out in their richness and fulness.

CH Is the effect of that seen in Abraham in that his eye-level was raised in chapter 15 as compared with chapter 13? He is told to lift up his eyes in chapter 13, but it is very largely horizontal, but in chapter 15 he is told to lift up his eyes again and to view the stars; he is to look now towards the heavens. Do you think experiences such as you have indicated in chapter 14 are calculated to help us to look a little higher, to have our vision elevated to consider more what is in the heavens?

SMcC That is very helpful. It is the first time that we get Abraham looking toward the heavens, or that he is asked to look towards the heavens, as if God takes account of what had transpired, and is so pleased with him that He would lift the level of his view in that sense. He is not only to look toward the heavens, but the stars are referred to; it is a remarkable touch, that God should refer to the stars.

APCL What have you in mind in that?

SMcC I think Abraham is one of the stars.

CH Is it not connected with the seed?

SMcC Just so. That is, the stars would bring in the saints. Abraham being part of them, the heavenly company in Hebrews 11, of whom it is said, “God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God” (verse 16). They are all part of the stars.

APCL And then is there not a reference to the extent of it in the word “if thou be able to number them”? Would not God bring out the great vastness of the extent which is really beyond us in calculation, connected with what is in the expanse?

SMcC That is one of the great thoughts linked with the expanse. It is particularly affecting in Ephesians that you get such expressions as “the unsearchable riches of the Christ,” and “the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge,” and God who is “able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or think.” On the line of the expanse, on the line of what is heavenly, things go far beyond finite capacity.

AH The reference in Isaiah 40: 26 may help, “Lift up your eyes on high, and see! Who hath created these things, bringing out their host by number? He calleth them all by name; through the greatness of his might and strength of power, not one faileth.” That refers to the stars, does it not?

SMcC How Isaiah would impress us with the majesty of God in relation to that scene and that setting all the way through his book. Now in chapter 22, while we are speaking about all that we come into on the line of expanded view and outlook, it is very affecting to think of Christ in His humanity coming into such limited circumstances, circumstances in which He was bound by His devotion to the will of God. Over against the thought of the expanse, we get in Genesis 22, the ram caught in the thicket by its horns, and that should touch us very much. The only way that we could come into the largeness and extensiveness of the expanse was by Him coming into the limitations suggested in that type.

AWGT Does verse 9, where it says, “and he bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar” confirm that?

SMcC Just so. How touching it is in regard to Abraham on the heavenly line! Faith was moving on this high level, and Abraham is prepared that nothing shall be between him and God. If it involves what is nearest to his heart, he is prepared to part with him in these relations with God. It is a question of God and Abraham, and nothing coming in between.

FWT Is there a link between chapters 15 and 22 in what the Psalmist says in Psalm 147: 4, “He counteth the number of the stars; he giveth names to them all”? Is God naming Abraham here as a star?

SMcC He is, and it is very interesting how the names come into this chapter, and especially one particular name that shines out, as you know, when we come to the end. We just have in a bracketed remark of the Spirit of God through Moses “(And Bethuel begot Rebecca).” (verse 23). What a touch that is following the calling from the heavens, not only once, but the second time! How much the idea of the second time opens up! Then we have the richness of the blessing, and finally the thought as to Rebecca.

JTS Is there some suggestion in this word, “and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,” to “He who, yea, has not spared his own Son,” Romans 8: 32? Then have we the extension of blessing in the stars of heaven and the sand that is on the seashore; and again, “and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves”? Have we the whole range of blessing now, as the outcome of the surrender of Christ?

SMcC It involves, as you might say, all the families, whether in heaven or on earth. It is like the great thought of Ephesians 3, and the many families named of the Father. Our brother referred to Abraham’s eye-level being lifted, and we might say here his eye-level is extended again, in relation to the many families, like we have in Ephesians 3, the great vastness of the divine domain.

MPS Is there some significance in Abraham dwelling at Beer-sheba at the close of this incident?

SMcC I think there is. We have Beer-sheba referred to in chapter 21, “And Abraham planted a tamarisk in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of Jehovah, the Eternal God,” chapter 21: 33. Now here is another touch. You find that knowledge in divine names is very full with Abraham; it is constantly enlarging. So that now we get, not Abraham just planting a tamarisk and calling on the name of Jehovah; but we get him dwelling at Beersheba, the well of the oath.

PHH Would the term ‘mountain,’ in this chapter, be somewhat of a corresponding feature to the heavens?

SMcC I thought it was. It is a link with the Most High God, and a link with the expanse on the elevated line. It has a link with the earth, but brings us into the elevated sphere, into the native air in which faith lives.

PHH It is not merely that Abraham is now looking towards the heavens, but do you think the mountain would suggest an ascending step on our part?

SMcC Yes.

RGB Is there some suggestion of the arrangement into which the Persons of the Godhead have entered in the working out of things in relation to the expanse, in this chapter?

SMcC I think there is. I think the holy covenant that John’s gospel impresses us with, the arrangement that the Father and the Son have entered upon, the Spirit too, is all projected on to our view in shadow and in type here. Is that what you have in mind, the holy arrangement in John 17, and the other chapters?

RGB Yes, I was thinking how over against the limited circumstances into which Christ has come, we have unfolded in John’s gospel the wonderful affections and relations between the Father and the Son in the working out of things.

SMcC And if God has not held back in regard to the best that He has, what about us? Because the holy covenant or arrangement between the Father and the Son is to affect us; and in the spirit that marks us on the heavenly line we are to be like Abraham. We are to let nothing come between us and our links with God. However great the demand of divine love, however much the severity of the test, of the fire and the knife, there is to be nothing come between us and God who is to be our eternal portion.

JM Can we think of the fragrance of the burnt-offering coming into the expanse for God’s pleasure?

SMcC Well, the first suggestion of that comes in as Noah comes out of the ark, in relation to the new world, as if in the fragrance of the burnt-offering God brings in the great thought of the bow in the expanse, as if it affects God. And now here, we have got the fragrance of the burnt-offering affecting God, so that we get this speaking the second time, and the enlargement that comes with the second time. Then Isaac and Rebecca come in, adding to the fulness of what is before us, because Rebecca was not to be attached to Isaac except in the scene where Isaac was as the heavenly man. Now we come to Jacob and it is interesting how God put an impression on Jacob at the outset as to the expanse. It is a dream, but God is seeking to affect Jacob and He puts a touch or impression on his spirit in regard to the expanse, or the heavenly line, because it says, “he dreamed, and behold, a ladder was set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to the heavens.”

APCL Is that in a certain sense God’s answer to Shinar?

SMcC I was thinking of that very thing. In Genesis 11 we have the unity of men in lawlessness in their enterprise to build something that reaches to the heavens, but here it is in the assembly as we might say, amongst the people of God, those that God has certain relations with and rights in regard of.

CH There seems to be something of a drop in the experiences of Jacob compared with Abraham. Can you help us as to that?

SMcC Well, there is. I think the teaching of it is that when we come to Jacob we have the earthly side more emphasised, it is the disciplinary and educational side more, and we know that on that side there is a good deal that is humbling comes out in our hearts.

CH He does finish as a worshipper.

SMcC That is what we want to see with Jacob, that while there is a good deal extraneous comes out in him, he finishes up in what we might call the glory of the expanse. He is like the sun in its strength, worshipping on the top of his staff, and able to name things rightly.

APB Would you say something about the ladder being set up?

SMcC It is very interesting that it does not say the ladder was dropped down. We might have written it that the ladder was dropped down but it is put, “And behold, a ladder was set up on the earth.” I think God is going to show what He can do in a man like Jacob, linked with the earthly side, and how He can bring him to the summit, as our brother has referred to it; the summit is “Jacob ... worshipped on the top of his staff,” Hebrews 11: 21.

CHT Is that why the ascending is mentioned before the descending?

SMcC Just so.

CH Is it a fact that the truth is made substantial in us by discipline?

SMcC That is the line that we have to see in Jacob, and it is the line of dwelling. The house comes in, not in relation to Abraham, nor in relation to Isaac; the house comes in in relation to Jacob, that difficult side of things, which is very interesting to notice.

ECM Is there not a beautiful touch in Psalm 47: 4, “He hath chosen our inheritance for us, the excellency of Jacob whom he loved”? Is not the disciplinary side necessary in view of bringing out the excellencies of Jacob according to the Psalm?

SMcC I think so. We want to see in our souls what is linked with Jacob on this line, because there is a basic side in Jacob that there is no gainsaying. Amidst all the crookedness and all the deceitfulness that marked Jacob, there is a basic side in him in contrast to Esau, that God can go on with and build upon. Now we all, especially young believers, want to see where we are basically. We do not want to be like Esau, who had no regard for the blessing; but Jacob, with all that marked him, had some instinct and intelligence in relation to the blessing, and it was a basic feature that entered into his salvation.

LGB Had he been breathing the native air of the expanse as dwelling in tents with Abraham and Isaac?

SMcC I am sure, as it is pointed out in Hebrews 11: 9, that Abraham dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the wonderful air of what was heavenly would be very bracing for Jacob there, and a great means of salvation to him.

AJG Would you say that the truth of the house of God is brought in as a great regulating element with us, regulating us in our conduct practically?

SMcC I think it is. We find, when we come to chapter 35, after Jacob had spent so much time in Padan-Aram, that God again appeals to him in regard to the house, and we see Jacob moving in relation to the house in deportment and in manner that is suited to it. So that you get the cleansing and the removal of the idols all on that line.

LWT Had you any thought as to the gate of heaven, in connection with the house of God? You referred to the windows of heaven earlier.

SMcC It is a very interesting reference here. What I was referring to a little while ago was the basic link in Jacob’s soul with the expanse. The great idea in the expanse is that it is to control the earth. Psalm 115: 16 tells us that, “The heavens are the heavens of Jehovah, but the earth hath he given to the children of men.” Jacob has a sense of the relation of heaven to the position that he has on earth, and I think the gate of heaven alludes to that.

JMcK Jehovah standing above it would imply God’s confidence in His own work, that Jacob should reach that household-wise.

SMcC I think that reference is very affecting, “And behold, Jehovah stood above it.” God does not need a ladder to go up and down; but God is standing above it, and the angels of God were ascending and descending upon it. It is a very touching thing that God links on with us in this way, the great link between the expanse and what is on earth is in this ladder; and then we have the providential orderings of God through angelic means.

WLM Does the ladder suggest progress in steps in that way, detailed experiences?

SMcC No doubt there may be something of that in the ladder; it is an unusual reference here, for it is not that Jacob is going up and down, it is the angels of God ascending and descending upon it, but the angels do not need a ladder. So there must be some reaction in Jacob’s soul in regard to it.

WD Is there a result reached with Jacob in the vow that he makes? Do you think it is the effect of the expanse producing the vow, and the tenth that he gives?

SMcC I think there is something in that. The more we are on the heavenly line, the more there will be a release of any pent-up love or affection that may be with us basically. There is a good deal of pent-up love in believers, but it needs to be released, and you get a release here in Jacob. It is not a full release, but God will even take a partial release, and He will make something of it. He takes Jacob up on the terms that Jacob proposes.

ECG Is there some reference to the expanse in chapter 32, where after a period of wrestling with Jacob, it says the sun rose upon him, as if he had reached something in his soul?

SMcC The reference there is very interesting; it would point to the light of Christ in the type, shining upon the believer as going through that struggle.

JMcK It is interesting at the beginning of chapter 32 that it says the angels of God met him, without saying how they served him. But presumably he was on the upward way.

SMcC Yes, it is very interesting. “Jacob went on his way; and the angels of God met him. And when Jacob saw them he said, This is the camp of God.” What a striking reference! Where did Jacob get that? “This is the camp of God. And he called the name of that place Mahanaim,” a name that is carried down in history.

PHH Does that allude to what was basic in his soul, without his being able to say very much about it?

SMcC I think so; and I think he now sees that God is on military lines. While He was on lines of grace in chapter 28, he now meets God on military lines, in the camp of God. God is not going to go on with his ways in Padan-Aram for ever, and so the wrestling follows. Now a word as to chapter 37. When we come to Joseph’s history we find what corresponds to Ephesians, what one might refer to as the fulness in relation to the expanse. You get the fulness of the earth, but Ephesians opens up fulness on the heavenly side, and Joseph links with that on the administrative side, as one who is in the place of supreme glory, in a mediatorial position, next to the Supreme. Then chapter 49 refers to great enlargement and fulness as the line of Joseph comes on to Jacob’s view. But in chapter 37 we get the dream that he had, involving the sun and the moon and the eleven stars bowing down to him.

RGB In the reference in Ephesians 1 to the heading up all things in the Christ, the things in the heavens come first and the things upon the earth come second. Is there any link with that and the chapter we have before us now?

SMcC Yes, I think there is. Say something more.

RGB I was only thinking of the universal position of dominion that is suggested in Joseph’s position in this section, and the heavenly side taking predominance.

SMcC Just so. The first dream links with the earthly side, “Behold, we were binding sheaves in the fields, and lo, my sheaf rose up, and remained standing; and behold, your sheaves came round about and bowed down to my sheaf. And his brethren said to him, Wilt thou indeed be a king over us? wilt thou indeed rule over us?” That brings in more the earthly side. But the other dream brings on to view a great expanded realm linked with the expanse, the sun and the moon and eleven stars involving a great range of things that Joseph stands related to in a ruling way.

MPS In the second dream Joseph is himself the object of the homage, whereas in the first, it is something that represents him. Would you say something about that?

SMcC You mean it says in the first reference, “bowed down to my sheaf.” The allusion is of course to the resurrection scene, and the Lord is seen in that setting. But when we come to the second, we get the full thought. It is not just representation, but the full thought, the sun and the moon and eleven stars bowed down to him.

JMcK Is there some touch there as to the surpassing greatness of Christ, not only His greatness in the system, but the whole system subservient to Him?

SMcC Just so, I think that is in mind.

AWGT Does it show the nearness in which Christ is known in the assembly as over against the general position?

SMcC If we look at it that way, yes. If we look at it in relation to Israel in regard to what has been referred to, Christ will not reign personally here on earth - He will reign over the earth, but there will be a prince of the house of David, a representative of Christ in kingly and princely power in Jerusalem according to Ezekiel. But still there will be the yielding to Him, it will be Christ’s pre-eminence. In the sphere of heavenly dominion alluded to, Christ personally is there, not a representative - “God and the Lamb shall there the light and temple be,” (74:7) as Mr. Darby alludes to it in his hymn.

MPS Does the second dream involve ascension as well?

SMcC Yes, it involves the heavenly position. Resurrection does not take us to the heavenly position, but ascension does.

PHH Is it something like Revelation 12, where the male son has complete dominance over all; whereas the sun and the moon and the stars are subsidiary to that? It is Christ Himself, is it not?

SMcC That is it. So we come to the thought of rule here. We had blessing in Abraham, and dwelling in Jacob, in the reference to the house of God. Bethel; now we come to this great thought of rule, and it involves the man-child caught up to God and Satan cast out of the expanse - a remarkable thing, ensuring that evil will be cleared from the expanse.

AJG Do you think that in this dream, where even the sun, as well as the moon and the stars, is bowing down to Joseph, that there is some possible answer to it in Ephesians, where it says that He has ascended up far above all the heavens?

SMcC I think there is. The thought of the ascending up above all heavens is that He is gone beyond the created sphere. The sun is hardly a type of Christ here, it is linked with the created sphere, especially in the expanse, but Christ has gone above all that, impressing us with the greatness of His Person.

JMcK “Bowed down to me” is not Christ exactly as part of the divine system, it is Christ personally, is it not, involving His deity? It is not simply that He is one of the heavenly bodies, but the whole heavenly system bows down to Him.

SMcC That is it. As Mr. G, has said, Ephesians views Him as above the whole created sphere. He is so great. He is not in this passage seen as the sun as in Genesis 1 that we began with. He is above all that, and Ephesians views Him in that light, so great is He in His Person.

APCL As these two dreams are presented, is not the second one more testing than the first? As to the first, they say, “Wilt thou indeed rule over us?” But as to the second, “Shall we indeed come ... to bow down ourselves to thee?”

SMcC It is very striking how it comes to this expression, “Shall we indeed come, I and thy mother and thy brethren, to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father kept the saying.” While the father made that comment, there is something in it that arrested him.

GEE Are these touches of supremacy to represent to us a climax to be reached in the exercise? I was thinking of your earlier reference to “Jehovah stood above it,” and then here, the bowing down.

SMcC Yes, I think that the thought of supremacy enters into the final end of all the operations in the expanse, whether it be supremacy in regard to Christ or supremacy in regard to God Himself. It is one of the great objectives in the designing of the expanse and in the working out of the operations in it.