DISTINCTIVENESS AND FINALITY IN PAUL'S MINISTRY (2)

DISTINCTIVENESS AND FINALITY IN PAUL’S MINISTRY (2)

Romans 1:1-9; Romans 1:16-18; 1 Corinthians 11:23-32; 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

SMcC It is thought well to look at these passages in the foundational epistles in relation to Paul’s ministry, as the heavenly thread enters into them, involving what is distinctive and what is refined and moving on to what is final. The Lord is emphasising that the heavenly light that has been so graciously shed upon us involves that things should be refined with us, and things should be distinctive with us, as separated through the heavenly call. It is a great thing that we should keep before us the refinement and quality that seems to enter into Paul’s ministry in the opening up of the heavenly side of the truth. While Romans does not deal exactly with the heavenly side of the truth, we shall see in it the distinctiveness in the gospel that Paul was separated to. We shall not be able to deal with all the details, but there are three thoughts in Romans 1: first, we should keep before us, “God’s glad tidings,” in verse 1, and then what Paul says of himself in verse 9, “whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son,” and then the distinctive touch in verse 18, “For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.” In 1 Corinthians it is in mind to see the distinctive character of the Lord’s supper, the truth of which Paul received from heaven, from the Lord in glory, and how the discipline of the Lord runs along with it. Finally, in 2 Corinthians 6, we have the Abrahamic side, for in Abraham of old we have the opening up of the heavenly side in the Old Testament in the type. The passage we read in 2 Corinthians 6 is on the Abrahamic line, calling us out from the things that are inconsistent with our calling, and then we have the promises of God alongside of that. There is the thought of the divine dwelling and God’s promise to be a father - all that might serve as a good basis in view of enlargement in regard to what may yet come before us. But this matter of the maintenance of things in their proper dignity and proper quality is very important. It might not be out of place just in passing to allude - not to dwell on it - to the redundancy and copiousness of mimeographed notes amongst us. We were speaking a good deal about the ministry this morning, and the ministers, and the importance of distinctiveness being maintained; whereas the production and quantity of notes often leads to detraction from quality and I think there ought to be concern about it. The Depots that have been designed for the distribution of ministry have a good deal on hand, so that the stacks of mimeographed notes that are extant would tend to detract from the distinctiveness and quality that the Lord would keep before the saints. It is not that we are saying anything about the ministry that may come in the gatherings of the saints, but I think there needs to be a certain consideration as to it.

PL This heavenly selective feature that we had this morning entering into it?

SMcC I thought that. The distinctive line that appears as the truth of the assembly opens up in Paul’s ministry involves selection and refinement. The wrath of God revealed from heaven is a very searching matter and would tend to keep us humble, and the discipline of the Lord running alongside of the truth of the Supper in this setting in 1 Corinthians 11 would also be searching and tend to keep us humble.

ECM Would you say a word as to the distinctiveness of Paul’s preaching that you referred to this morning, he preached that Jesus is the Son of God?

SMcC I think it is the introduction of the heavenly thread, the heavenly line. It is not opened out there, it is just referred to, but there is a heavenly touch in that, for the Son of God cannot be linked with the course of things here in this world. He is linked with another world, and the light of another world is dawning in, as J.N.D. alludes to it in Acts 9, the dawning of another scene coming on to view as Stephen’s exit is drawn attention to.

ABP Would there be responsibility with those who serve as to the extent of distribution? Notes are usually revised before they are circulated, are they not?

SMcC I am sure there is that feature entering into it, because, of course, notes are handed to myself and I must say that out of sheer consideration for the labours, the unselfish labours of the beloved sisters that have entered into them, I have revised them. But I feel in regard to a good deal of notes, as to myself (I can speak for myself in that way) that there is too much in circulation, detracting from what we need to get at so much. What would you say yourself?

ABP I fully go with what you are saying. It is interesting that the letter from Paul to the saints in Corinth represents ministry which was given in a locality, and yet was serviceable universally, and dispensationally. Should there be a concern as to the character of what is revised for publication?

SMcC I think there should be. There is ministry that may be given in a certain place, and the Lord may distinctly help in it, in relation to current exercises in that place. But if it is put into production, and copies are multiplied and extended all over the world, it may become attenuated; and you do not have the same power in it as when it was given in the place.

AJG There is another matter that is causing some concern in certain quarters, and that is recording machines. Meetings are recorded, and then these are taken round to houses, and the thing is turned on, and the saints in houses are regaled with these recordings of meetings. Is there not a double objection to that, one that you have not got the atmosphere of the assembly there, and the other that the recordings are played back without giving the brother responsible an opportunity to revise them?

SMcC I think that is a timely word. It is like many other things that have been brought into right use, but have become subject to abuse amongst the saints. We in Detroit, in the last two years, if I remember rightly, made the announcement at the special meetings, that it was desired that no recorders be used except the recorder necessary for the transcription of the notes. I do not think that these recorders should be employed by the brethren as a means of entertainment, which alas, sometimes they degenerate into. All this bears on the maintenance of the heavenly side, for the Lord is insisting on the maintenance of heavenly dignity in keeping with the assembly’s greatness as a heavenly vessel, that has just come down here for the moment in relation to the testimony and is soon to go back again.

GRC Do you think that the local company where the ministry is given should soberly weigh over the matter, the assembly being the pillar and base of the truth? I was thinking of what was said, that the letters to Corinth were preserved and circulated, and letters to Philippi, and so on.

SMcC I think what you say is right. In what is said therefore we are not seeking to discount ministry in any sense, but there is the need of balance. Everywhere a servant goes, notes are taken and there is well-meaning in it, but the servant himself knows that he is not always helped in a distinctive way and sometimes he may feel that he is not helped of the Lord. Therefore the importance of discerning what is “more excellent,” and what is of benefit to the saints, would you say?

GRC Yes, and I was wondering in that connection whether it should be an exercise to the local company who have arranged the meeting not to want the notes published just because they were given in that locality, but to have a priestly assessment as to whether they ought to go beyond that locality or not, so that they are able to help the servant if necessary in the matter.

SMcC I am sure what you say is important in that regard, and also that there should be a sympathetic feeling towards the beloved trustees in the Depot, who so unselfishly give their time and their labours and their energy, without any recompense from one point of view, in regard to them. Our sympathies would be with them, and we should also have confidence in them as to the distribution of ministry.

GRC I was thinking of what you were saying this morning as to the importance of the local company relative to the minister, in connection with Paul himself, and whether that should not work out, if we were up to it as local companies, in this matter.

SMcC I am sure it would; and of course we would keep in mind that the assembly does not regulate the ministry. We must keep that clear and I am sure you have it clear in your mind and I would like to keep it clear in my mind. The assembly can in no way regulate ministry in that sense, because ministry stands related to Christ and His headship and authority in the place of exaltation.

GRC Quite so, so that it needs balancing; it is just a question of a priestly assessment.

SMcC That is it. So that as we have been saying, with recorders and other things, we want to see that they do not get out of control and quality thereby be reduced. We know that in countries in the world an increase in production often leads to decrease in quality.

SWP Is there any point in the fact that the Spirit of God has not seen fit to preserve the letter to Laodicea?

SMcC Yes, it seems rather interesting that we do not have it and yet it is referred to. The reference to it by Paul would show us that it was extant, so that we are reminded that while everything may not come into the record, there is what is extant, and it is a good thing to keep that in mind.

CRW Is there anything in the fact that Solomon wrote a thousand and five songs, but only one has been recorded and come down to us?

SMcC It is rather remarkable. There must have been quite a selection in that matter. I suppose it will be testing to any one of us, but the great thing is as to whether we are prepared to accept this great matter of refinement that the heavenly line involves.

ANW Is there anything in the fact that there is not a word recorded of Timothy either having said anything, or written anything?

SMcC Barring, I suppose, what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1: 19, “For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus).” We know that he preached the Son of God but, as you say, we have no extensive record of what he said, nor have we any epistle written by him.

AHse Is the reference in John 21 important, that the Spirit exercises what is selective as to what is recorded of the words of the Lord Jesus, and His pathway here?

SMcC Yes, it is an interesting reference there to the whole world not being able to contain the books that could be written, but divine selection was employed, and therefore we have what is advantageous, and what is needed by us.

ABP Would Mark and Luke suggest that there is what is augmentary and supportive in the service of those who were not apostles at the time, the apostles themselves perhaps suggesting a distinctive line of the ministry?

SMcC I think that is an interesting reference, especially as we consider the remarkable gospels that each of them wrote, and how they found their way into, and their place in, the canon of the Scriptures. It is interesting to see how God thus honours persons serving in an augmentary way.

MHT Would the contrast in the last chapter of Ecclesiastes between “the words of the wise,” that are likened to goads, and the “many books,” the making of which there is no end, be in line with what you are saying?

SMcC Yes, I should think it would. The reference to discernment among the saints as to what is ministered would bear on that, because the priesthood in Numbers involves what we are saying. There is discernment as to what is ministered, and selection would be according to that, I mean the discernment as to what is right and approved of God.

APCL In connection with what you have said as to the labours of persons in notes being presented, do you think that this discernment you are speaking of might be exercised before that took place?

SMcC I should think so, because it is a tremendous and prodigious labour, and you feel for the sisters involved, and sometimes brothers expect them to do it. There is a tremendous amount of time and labour put in and you wonder whether it is warranted.

APCL I feel very sympathetic with what you say, because the matter is really out of hand. I was just wondering whether in the case of three-day meetings, and meetings of that character, a revised summary might not keep the brethren in line with what is proceeding without such labour, unless it was so decided that there was the substance in it.

SMcC I think you are right in that. A summary could often take the place of full notes, for the general information of the brethren around who were not able to get to the meetings, as to what was before the saints. If it was discerned that there was something of general help, then it could come into the other category.

EEP Paul says to Timothy “especially the parchments.” Would that support what you say?

SMcC Paul apparently attached some importance to what was current in that way. Now I think we should get to these thoughts in Romans as to the distinctiveness of the glad tidings, as Paul refers to them as “God’s glad tidings,” and how he served God in his spirit in the glad tidings of His Son. This is the positive side as entering into the glad tidings, and then the wrath of God from heaven bears on the negative side. This is a unique expression in verse 18; it is altogether new. There was wrath in the Old Testament, the wrath of God operating through the Assyrian, there was a scourge in Israel, making inroads into the land, and the wrath of God came on Israel in delivering them into captivity in Babylon; but that is not this. This is something different and distinctive. It is something new, something that has come in in connection with the revelation of God.

AHn Do you think that Paul here, in speaking of God’s glad tidings, has the whole range of his ministry in mind?

SMcC I think it includes it, although in Romans he would particularly have in mind what is before him. But, whether it was the glad tidings of the grace of God, or the glad tidings of the glory, I am sure that Paul would have the full thought in mind,

in the way he speaks of being separated to God’s glad tidings - a remarkable expression.

AJG Have you in mind that there is something distinctive about this wrath of God revealed from heaven, because the whole truth has come out, and therefore the wrath of God against those who hold the truth in unrighteousness is all the greater?

SMcC I have. I think it is very sobering, and very solemn for us to consider this in its bearing upon what may be existent, especially in connection with the higher level from which things are now viewed, the cross having come in, and God having penally rejected evil in a total way, as He had never done before. His nature has been revealed, and this enters into this passage: “there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.”

PHH Would that be all the more so on account of the title used, in the beginning, “God’s glad tidings, ... concerning his Son,” and then in verse 9, Paul says, “God ... whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son”? Does the use of the term “Son” there make it something which is very dear and close to the heart of God, so that the rejection of these glad tidings, or the truth, in unrighteousness must be dealt with in a more drastic way.

SMcC That is it. Our responsibility therefore - not only that of men in an unregenerate way - is much greater in the present dispensation than it has ever been before, on account of the revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety.

JSE Are not we more tested by it as the days close in?

SMcC I think we are. This matter of holding the truth in unrighteousness, we can see how heaven is insisting that the truth cannot be held that way. Indeed, the wrath of God is expressed against that kind of thing, and it is all around us in Christendom.

LES Would Paul have it in mind in 2 Corinthians 4, where he says “nor falsifying the word of God, but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every conscience of men before God. But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them,” verses 2 - 4. Would there be a link with that?

SMcC There is. It shows the seriousness, as this chapter shows, of the rejection of light, and how things become solemn when light is rejected. As we follow down this chapter we can see what necessitates the revelation of the righteousness of God, and the revelation of the wrath of God. The revelation of the righteousness of God is a new thing too, as well as the revelation of the wrath of God.

TJG Could you open out a little the last clause of verse 18, “and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.” It does not simply say men holding the truth in unrighteousness, but “unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.”

SMcC It is unrighteous for any of us to profess to hold the truth and to go on with what is unrighteous and to be found in what is unrighteous. That is what is in mind, “the unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness.” If I hold to the truth of the heavenly calling, and I am found in circumstances that are not in accord with it, that are unrighteous, I am holding the truth in unrighteousness.

JSE Is there any help for us in that this epistle and the epistle to the Ephesians preserve the distinctiveness of Paul by himself in the ministry, and in this one that we are reading now, he presents things, we might say, from an inclusive viewpoint. But as he proceeds into the corrective epistles, does he not break the matter up, and bring certain features of the truth to bear upon the saints according to their state?

SMcC It is very interesting to see that in Paul’s style of writing and ministering. For instance, in the Colossian epistle, you will remember how he speaks about presenting every man perfect in Christ. You can see the broad outlook that he has, but then he wants to focus our attention on the assembly, the body. But this matter of God’s Son, and the high level of the glad tidings in this sense, God’s affections and God’s nature entering into it, is very important in the way we preach or in the way we serve.

CH Would that be indicated in what he says at the end of this letter, that his preaching of Jesus Christ was “according to the revelation of the mystery” - according to it? It may not have been the whole subject of the revelation, but it was part of it.

SMcC Very good. It would show how he was always governed by that light, wherever he was.

CH And the effect of that seemed to have promoted the spirit of worship in his soul, according to the end of that letter.

SMcC Just so.

PHH Referring to this matter of the Son again, later on, for instance, in chapter 3, Paul talks about “righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ” (verse 22), and then in verse 24, “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.” Later on still he says (verse 26), “justify him that is of the faith of Jesus.” Would it be right to say that “God’s glad tidings ... concerning his Son” is the way God views that Person, how He stands with Him, whereas, when it is a case of the truth being applied to ourselves, other titles are more suitable, like Jesus, or Jesus Christ, or Christ Jesus?

SMcC Exactly. That is, when certain things are to be done in our souls, it may be “the glad tidings of the Christ” or the like. That would involve meeting a practical need in our soul, but the glad tidings of God’s Son seems to have a detaching effect, introducing us, in our thoughts, into God’s world and the Centre of His affections.

GRC Does that show the importance of verse 9? It was from the standpoint of the glad tidings of God’s Son that Paul served, he had an appreciation of God’s side of the matter.

SMcC Just so. What refinement would enter into his service in that sense, “God is my witness, whom I serve” - not by my hands, not in the many labours - but “whom I serve in my spirit in the glad tidings of his Son,” showing how Paul was internally affected by the matter.

GRC So that a priest was preaching, the word ‘serve’ being priestly service.

SMcC He was marked by what was priestly in the service of the glad tidings, he would always think of, and think for, God.

JM Do his later references to God’s Son in this epistle, for instance in chapter 5, “reconciled to God through the death of his Son” (verse 10); chapter 8: 3, “God having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh,” and then in verse 29, our being “conformed to the image of his Son,” open up something as to this blessed thought in relation to God?

SMcC They do. It is the background for verse 18 of chapter 1, “For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety.” In the Old Testament we have God governmentally operating; for instance, in relation to Abimelech, and we have God governmentally operating in relation to David, and governmentally operating in relation to Israel; but that is not this; this is not the government of God on that line. This expression “For there is revealed wrath of God from heaven upon all impiety” is the full declaration in the cross of God’s total penal rejection of evil, in the light of the expression of His own nature there.

ANW He does not say exactly that the wrath of God is revealed in the glad tidings, does he? The righteousness of God is revealed.

SMcC It is important to see the distinction, because it is not revealed in the glad tidings. The statement “For there is revealed wrath of God” is just the broad statement saying that it is revealed. It is not executed, it does not come into operation in our dispensation; that is not the point. It is just the fact that it is fully expressed in the cross of Christ, when God rejected evil, rejected sin, in such a complete way.

AB In regard of Paul serving God in his spirit in the glad tidings of His Son, would it ensure that there was a portion for God, irrespective of public results?

SMcC I think so. That is, he would have in mind what was for the heart of God in serving in the glad tidings, in that way, in his spirit.

AW Why is heaven mentioned in verse 18? I believe it is the only time in the epistle to the Romans when heaven is mentioned.

SMcC It is the first time, for there are two references to heaven. We have one in this first chapter (verse 18), and then in chapter 10, you remember that reference, “Who shall ascend to the heavens? that is, to bring Christ down,” verse 6. These are the only two references to heaven in Romans. It is very striking, what you refer to, because the point is, it is not What is revealed on earth, as we have been saying in Israel, in connection with the throne of God in Israel there was wrath operating in that relation, but this is something new. God’s Son having come into the world and having gone to the cross, evil being judicially dealt with there, wrath is revealed from heaven upon all impiety. It is from heaven, not from the earth.

JVanS If wrath is not revealed, what is your thought about Acts 5?

SMcC You are alluding to the assembly discipline there.

JVanS Two died without human hands whatever.

SMcC Well, the government of God always operates, it has not ceased. The government of God operates from beginning to end, and it will operate in the millennial world if necessary, in relation to certain matters that arise. In what we are saying we do not mean that it ceases to operate, but that is not quite the thought here; “there is revealed wrath of God from heaven” is not executed wrath in this dispensation. It has been expressed and therefore our conduct, our lives, have to be taken account of in that light.

GRC What you say as to it not being executed seems to make the matter very clear. It is revealed, but not executed, but because Christ has borne it, the world provisionally is in reconciliation.

SMcC That is it, so that in the glad tidings the righteousness of God is revealed.

WH Would that be seen also in the end of 1 Corinthians, where the apostle refers to one being accursed at His coming, the present time is a period of grace?

SMcC That is a striking passage, as if the subject of loving our Lord Jesus Christ is so wondrous in his soul, that he cannot bear to think of persons that do not love Him; but he anticipates it, he extends it.

JTS Did you have in mind that if God has expressed His displeasure in regard of any matter, we should be brought into accord with that?

SMcC That is what I am thinking of. It connects with the high level and standard by which we are governed in our dispensation, in wrath being revealed from heaven against all impiety, and unrighteousness of men holding the truth in unrighteousness. That is the high standard that we are governed by in our dispensation.

APCL Is it remarkable that Enoch should prophesy as having this matter as a kind of present reality with himself?

SMcC Yes, that is very interesting, especially as he thinks of the Lord coming amidst His holy myriads. Have you that in mind?

APCL Yes, he says according to Jude, “the Lord has come amidst his holy myriads, to execute judgment against all,” Jude 14. While the execution is not yet, do you not think that those who are waiting the appearing have that as a living present matter in their souls?

SMcC So that in matters that come up amongst us, we do not leave them till the judgment seat of Christ, or leave them till the final administration of things. If we are in the light of this wrath revealed from heaven against all impiety, we will quickly adjust ourselves and our circumstances in keeping with that.

LES So that, is that what we have in Revelation 18: 20, “God has judged your judgment upon her”? Wrath having been revealed from heaven, there has been the execution of it in the Revelation, and we are to move and walk, and be governed by the light of that.

SMcC Yes.

AJG Is it striking that in Revelation 15 it is one of the four living creatures that gives to the seven angels the seven golden bowls, full of the fury of God, as though when God pours out His fury on the earth, it is administered by a living creature giving the bowls of it to the angel who is to do it. Does that show how we, as living creatures, are to be brought into full accord with the wrath that has been revealed, and in that day will be executed?

SMcC That helps greatly, and I am sure that in the assembly now, we should think of that. It is as through the glad tidings of God’s Son coming into what we have been brought into, especially in the light of the heavenly order of things that is in mind, we should be like the living creatures in that way, sympathetic with God as in His nature He has penally rejected evil in toto. He has not rejected it according to the law, but rejected it according to His nature, which has been fully expressed.

PL The searching character of the judgment seat of the Christ in 2 Corinthians 5 is followed by “knowing therefore the terror of the Lord we persuade men, but have been manifested to God.”

SMcC Very good. That would be a link with what we are saying. The wrath of God has been revealed from heaven against all impiety, so that if we are in circumstances of impiety, circumstances where God is not honoured as He should be honoured, and where the truth is not being held in righteousness, we should be concerned to get out of them, because the wrath of God is revealed against it.

WRM In 2 Thessalonians the apostle refers to the tribulations and persecutions of the saints as a token of the righteous judgment of God. Is that important light in relation to the sufferings of the saints at the present time?

SMcC Yes, it is.

PHH This matter of judgment, not on the same level, is pursued in relation to the Supper. I do not want to take you beyond where you want to go, but in connection with the scripture in 1 Corinthians 11 I was looking at certain persons who are said to be ‘guilty,’ and then the invitation for a man to prove himself, and then the eater and drinker drinking judgment to himself, and then the governmental result, for instance, in verse 30, of doing wrong things in connection with the Supper. Would that fit in with, so to speak, “holding the truth in unrighteousness,” having the light of the Supper but personally not acting up to the light we have.

SMcC I think it does. It is very striking that we should get all this through Paul. We do not get it through Peter, we do not get it through John, we do not get it in the synoptic gospels; it is left to the minister who gives us the Supper as he received it from heaven, from the Lord, from that viewpoint. Paul is elevating, as it were, the outlook in regard to it, that it cannot be taken without the becoming sobriety and solemnity that belong to it in that setting. Do you not think?

PHH Yes. I wondered whether it was mingled with your thought at the beginning of the reading concerning judgment and discipline, discipline as working among the saints in view of purity and so on. For instance, in 1 Corinthians 11 again, “being judged, we are disciplined of the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.” Is there some element in the assembly now which ought to cause us to discipline ourselves? It is not a question of an assembly meeting and an assembly judgment being pronounced, but the element of judgment, and self-judgment.

SMcC Paul disciplined himself. He said, “I buffet my body, and lead it captive, lest after having preached to others I should be myself rejected,” 1 Corinthians 9: 27. We can see how strong he was about his own personal matters, his affairs linked with his body, so that the truth should not be held in disrepute.

ABP Is this passage in 1 Corinthians 11 the bush burning but not being consumed?

SMcC I suppose there is a suggestion of that. They were a suffering people, and yet “the good-will of him that dwelt in the bush” is very remarkable. We have God in the midst of a suffering people in a disciplinary way, yet they are not consumed. It is, I suppose, all to emphasise the line of reduction in relation to us naturally and refinement in relation to us spiritually, would you think?

ABP So would it link with Paul’s word in Hebrews 12: 28 and 29, “by which let us serve God acceptably with reverence and fear. For also our God is a consuming fire.”

SMcC Just so. I think we should have regard for the way that Paul presents the Supper; he says “I received from the Lord, that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus, in the night in which he was delivered up, took bread.” He has his own distinctive way of bringing in the truth of the Supper, and it is linked with the first day of the week, and all the heavenly side of things that belongs to that day, the resurrection and ascension. All that enters into it is linked with that day, and he brings in the Supper as having received the light of it from heaven.

JSE Does he present the words of the Lord Jesus by themselves on the line of our privilege, but when he amplifies it, from verse 26, is he really bringing home to us our own responsibility for a suited condition by which we enter into the privilege of the Supper?

SMcC I think so. I think that is what he has in mind.

AEM I appreciate what you said, but I want to raise the matter of taking young people into fellowship without their having proper appreciation of their place. I think young people should be made to understand that to break bread is a solemn responsibility; if they go away from it, they will come under the discipline of the Lord.

SMcC That is right, I think what you say is important in that relation, because the fellowship is entrusted; after a manner of speech, into their hands, and if they compromise it, they come under the hand of the Lord. This chapter is stressing the Lord in that way.

PHH Does what has been said make verse 30 a very solemn matter? “On this account,” that is, the eater and drinker bringing judgment on himself, “On this account many among you are weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep.”

SMcC It shows the Lord is not relinquishing His hand. We think we are in the dispensation of grace, and may be some of us think we can go a long way, but we must remember that in the assembly the Lord does not relinquish His hand, He keeps His hand over matters.

GRC Are we really unfair to young people if we do not put that side to them, as the Lord said “If any one desires to come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me,” Matthew 16: 24?

SMcC I think we are. We are not really impressing them with the sense of responsibility; we may impress them with the privilege, but we have to impress them with the sense of responsibility in linking on with the Lord’s supper and the Lord’s people.

AEM The Lord gives us time to judge ourselves; if we fail to do it, He will judge us.

SMcC That is very striking, so that it says in verse 28, “But let a man prove himself, and thus eat of the bread, and drink of the cup.” What grace shines in the midst of it all, that the Lord gives us opportunity to prove ourselves.

RWS This is not vicarious, this is what a person actually goes through because of what he does; but in certain illnesses, and we have many, both mental and emotional and organic, we cannot exclude, I suppose, the side of what is vicarious, can we?

SMcC We cannot; that is, often the Lord may introduce discipline into our locality because of certain conditions there. He may affect the bodies of certain of the saints, because of certain conditions that are there; and they may have to suffer on account of others in view of bringing out certain things.

ACSP May I ask again about the matter of young people being received; it is a question that is up all over the country. Did not J.T. constantly call attention to the references in Scripture to twelve years, both in connection with the Lord, and in connection with the little girl that He raised? Am I right in thinking that while the age is not literal, we would look for the features of a young person of that age before receiving them?

SMcC Yes, I Should think so. The idea conveyed in the age of twelve is that of responsibility. We know that there are some young persons that attain years of responsibility much earlier than others, therefore what we look for is some feature of maturity in the young people, something that shows that they are beyond their age naturally in that sense. It may be in the possession of the Spirit, or in some apprehension of the truth of the Lord, their love for the Lord; we would look for some element of maturity in them.

JF Did Naomi stress the side of responsibility in the way that she dealt with Ruth?

SMcC Yes, she did. That is, she gave Ruth a sense that it would not be an easy path, and the young people have to face that.

CH Might I refer back to what was said about vicarious suffering? Is it understood that the Lord may cause some to suffer who are not necessarily the wrong doers? In His discipline in relation to the local company He may touch those who in fact may be valuable brothers and sisters, to exercise the rest?

SMcC Yes, in order to bring out certain things in regard to the local position. It may be something perhaps that attention needs to be drawn to, and in getting near to God about the matter, God brings light to bear. It is like the three years of famine in the time of David. David could not figure out just what was the cause or what it was about, and he sought God, and God gave him light as to the matter, and David proceeded accordingly. It would be like that.

CH I was thinking that in recent times in this country, the Lord has taken some youngish men, who have been a remarkable help in their locality, and we should have said those who could ill be spared. Is it not really to raise an issue with those who are left?

SMcC I am sure it would raise concern with those who are left as to where we are and how we stand in relation to the testimony and the Lord’s interests.

CH So that as partaking of the Supper in this public sense, we are in the sphere of lordship, and have to do with Him - all of us, in our relations together?

SMcC That is it. The Supper deals with us as brothers and sisters; J.T. pointed out that in Corinthians we are not in heaven, we are not in Canaan, we are in the wilderness. We are men and women in flesh and blood conditions and therefore we are governed by time. That is, we cannot go on all day in the Lord’s supper, we are governed by time, and by wilderness conditions. Therefore all these things have to have consideration in relation to the Lord’s supper.

CH So that we are all intended to come to the Supper as exercised persons, that as far as we are aware there is nothing in our associations or our secret lives, that would hinder us from partaking of the emblems on the Lord’s day?

SMcC Just so.

JBP Could something be said about “distinguishing the body”?

SMcC That is a matter of the Lord’s body, and our discerning it. That is, you just do not take the loaf as a rite or ceremony without discerning the Lord’s body involved in it.

AEM You mentioned time, would it be suitable to speak of the matter of the time of the morning meeting?

SMcC Do you mean there has been a little concern as to whether it could not be earlier? Well, I think it should have due consideration amongst us, that in regard to what is so precious, as the Lord’s supper is, a little bit earlier might not only help in regard to the Lord’s supper, but the whole first day of the week, which has a heavenly character about it.

PL “Now when he had risen very early, the first day of the week,” Mark 16: 9.

SMcC It is remarkable how in the Scriptures we have the thought of what is early linked with that day. You think of the Father, how early He must have been at the sepulchre! As J.T. once said, ‘Before anybody was there, He was there.’ When Mary came to the sepulchre she would find that the Father had been there before her.

GRC What time do you suggest?

SMcC I do not know; there has been an exercise in some parts, especially where it is testing in the middle part of the day, for the carrying on of the services, that it would help to have it earlier.

GRC It would help in this country to have it earlier.

SMcC I should think it would help in other countries too. A great many of the brethren think - maybe I should not say ‘a great many,’ that might not be true, but some think - the Lord’s day is a good day for a ‘long lie.’ I certainly do not think the Lord’s day is a good day for a ‘long lie.’ It is a day for getting up early; the first day of the week is a day for getting up early. Surely there is only one day that the Lord claims, specially; there are six other days in which we can work and do what we want as to our own circumstances; but the Lord reserves one day, and surely we would not encroach on that day by lying late in bed.

GRC Many have the Saturday free also, do they not?

SMcC Just so.

AEM I recall J.T. saying at Knoxville, that we should all sit down together at the same time in the same time zone; so it is a universal matter, and the unity of the faith is involved.

SMcC Yes, I do not think it would do for some to change the time here, and some in another district, and some in another district. We would be back to where we were before; it would not facilitate the working out of the Lord’s supper.

CHM Would Mr. M, tell us what is his main point in this important suggestion of having the breaking of bread earlier?

AEM In the larger cities the brethren have not time to get to their afternoon reading and then to get home and entertain and get back in time for the preaching of the gospel. I think therefore that a little extra time would be essential, say half an hour or one hour earlier. There is another matter, and that is that most transport begins at 11 o’clock in this country. The brethren would therefore have to be wise about it and consider it. We cannot settle it here.

AW In Germany we break bread at 10 o’clock.

PL In large cities, where the saints are not able to gather entirely together for the reading in the afternoon, but who resort to group readings, it would certainly facilitate the group readings being held regularly every Lord’s day, if there were more time available.

SMcC Yes, it certainly would. I think what has been brought forward needs due consideration.

Brethren in the Barbados have felt that it would be much better for those in the tropical areas if it was a little earlier. Is that right, Mr. E.? You have had that concern, have you not?

HOE It is quite right in respect of some, but others who have large families and who are wholly dependent on public transport could hardly get there before the present hour. It is a matter we have been considering for some time, but have not yet come to a conclusion.

ANW There is no light on it in Acts 20, is there?

SMcC What do you have in mind?

ANW We are not told the time they came together; we are told that Paul discoursed till midnight and that after they had broken the bread, it says “and having long spoken until daybreak.”

SMcC Of course, in the early days the Supper was taken in the evening.

RWS Would not the thought of compression enter into the Supper, so that possibly we do not have such long meetings?

SMcC I am sure there is something in that. I think there should be concern with us that we are there on assembly time, and the most should be made of the time, so that the meeting is not drawn out to an hour and a half, or an hour and forty minutes. The wilderness side of the position would involve that all that is measured in wisdom.

AJG Would not that involve our being concerned to be ready to proceed in the various stages of the service? I do not mean in any fleshly activity, but being spiritually alert, so that no time is lost in long pauses?

SMcC I am sure what you say is right. I remember being in a meeting in Nostrand Avenue many years ago with beloved J.T. There were two of us that were visitors and there was a pause, and neither of the visitors went forward to give thanks,

and J.T. got up, and went forward and said, ‘Lord, we have come here to break bread, and we should proceed with it,’ and he proceeded to give thanks. It is the value of assembly time, and that we are in the Lord’s domain, and under His hand in the dominical side at that time.

AHn Do the operations of the Spirit have an important bearing on that? You remember how beloved J.T. used to stress the idea of “from glory to glory,” glorious persons leaving their houses, and sitting down in the assembly, and proceeding accordingly.

SMcC Therefore we have to be concerned, even when we leave our houses, as to what we are coming to. We do not come into the assembly in any kind of way; we are coming into the greatest thing on earth, and therefore dignity should attend our comportment.

ABP Should we always expect the visiting brother to break the bread?

SMcC The only answer I would give to that is that love does not behave itself unseemly. If Paul or Peter or John or Timothy or Silas were to come into Detroit, I think we would wait to see if they would go forward. Would not you in New York? I am sure you would.

ABP Yes, but when you are visiting this country, and you move around from place to place over several weeks, do you feel that it is right to break bread each Lord’s day?

SMcC I have been at a few places where someone else has done it.

CH You waited at Doncaster.

ABP Should not there be an exercise with brethren that we should not put the visiting brother in the position where he has to do it?

SMcC I should think so. It is a question of liberty, and dove behaving itself in a seemly way.

I remember, in our locality once, a brother of great respect came into the locality, and a young brother immediately jumped up. Well, it was like love behaving itself in an unseemly way, an ill-mannered way. The assembly is a place of heavenly manners, but there should be liberty, as you say. Now in 2 Corinthians 6, the thought was just the heavenly thread that comes on the Abrahamic line, “Wherefore come out from the midst of them, and be separated, saith the Lord, ... and I will be to you for a Father, and ye shall be to me for sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.” Paul alludes to all these different yokes and participations and fellowships and consents and parts, showing how finely everything is measured. I think as we reach the final side of things in relation to Paul’s ministry we have to see what is not in accord, in unholy associations, with our heavenly calling. The promise of God over against it is very fine, in the way He says “I will dwell among them, and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be to me a people.” And then, “I will receive you; and I will be to you for a Father.” So much is brought up as to our livelihoods and our salaries, and the positions that we will have to give up; but oh, the position that we come into, the favour and the resource that we have to do with in God Himself personally coming into the matter!

Ques Would you make it a test of fellowship?

SMcC What would you say yourself when you read this passage? Would you make it a test of fellowship?

Rem It seems like it.

SMcC It seems like it! Look at the scripture, for instance, now: “Be not diversely yoked with unbelievers.” If a believer was yoked with an unbeliever, would you not make that a test of fellowship! Certainly. Well, there is the answer to your question.

VCL Is there not almost an Ephesian touch in the idea of hearts being expanded? The apostle prays in Ephesians that the saints may be strengthened “by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts.” I wondered if the idea of having hearts expanded by the presence of the Spirit, so that we are quickly sensitive to anything that would grieve Him, is not the issue here.

SMcC Very good; it is like another Abrahamic touch. Jehovah led Abraham out, and then we have all the expanded view He gave him, the enlarged outlook. It is like Paul taking the Corinthian brethren, and having desires for them along the same line.

APCL Is it not affecting that it is really the Father that he is bringing to bear upon them? Chapter 11 that we have been speaking about is a matter of the Lord, and His discipline.

SMcC It is very touching that the Father should come in here, as if it is a matter that involves a subject of tender care. What He would be to us, in these matters that become such a test!

APCL And yet at the same time it involves the understanding of the Father’s position as Lord of the heaven and the earth, and as the Governor of the universe.

SMcC Exactly. We have the thought of El Shaddai, Lord Almighty, suggesting supreme power linked with the Father in this setting.

PHH Does holiness enter into this a good deal? Is it a holy family, and is there a holy suggestion in the quotation from Leviticus, “I will dwell among them, walk among them,” and so on?

SMcC There is. So that the wrath of God revealed from heaven against all impiety is an allusion to things being judged according to the nature of God. It is not just the standard of the law, but the nature of God, God revealed, and holiness is insisted upon in the saints, in the light of that.

DRJG Does Haggai 2: 11 - 13 bear on what you are saying? I was thinking of the question of holiness as it is dealt with there.

SMcC Yes. A holy thing touching an unclean thing does not make it holy, but an unclean thing touching what is holy makes it unholy.

PL And an unclean association pursued, such as directorships or shareholdings, or whatever it be of that character, if disregarded by certain persons after appeal on the part of brethren, the matter should not be left where it is, should it?

SMcC No, it should not. The Lord, in view of the final side of things, is raising all these matters with us, because of the assembly going into heaven. Therefore we should look into them and take account of them; and especially bear in mind this word “Wherefore come out from the midst of them.”

LES Does the reference to Leviticus 26 greatly help in this matter, where He says, “And I will set my habitation among you; and my soul shall not abhor you; and I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be to me a people. I am Jehovah your God, who brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you walk upright,” verses 11 - 13. Would not that underlie the breaking of any associations that we might have?

SMcC It would. I am sure that God would help any one of us who is in wrong associations, to face the matter and get out of them; because it is a matter that we should be unified about. It is not a question just of the thought of a few, but as on the heavenly line, Paul’s ministry would insist on unification amongst the saints in regard to all that is extraneous and not in keeping with the truth.

WBH Is the first verse of the next chapter important, following what we have been saying? “Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us purify ourselves from every pollution of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear.”

SMcC Yes, that is an encouragement to us.