DISTINCTIVENESS AND FINALITY IN PAUL'S MINISTRY (1)

DISTINCTIVENESS AND FINALITY IN PAUL’S MINISTRY (1)

Acts 9: 1 - 20; 2 Corinthians 12: 1 - 10

SMcC It is suggested that we look at Paul and his ministry, and the opening up of the heavenly side in relation to it, and especially to see what is distinctive and final in it. The brethren would immediately recall how the line of distinctiveness runs through all Paul’s service and ministry from beginning to end. The thought of what is final, too, appears in it, for to him it was given to complete the word of God. It is thought well, in the first reading, to consider himself personally, and see how immediately heaven comes on to view in connection with him and his conversion, and then to see the peculiar distinctiveness that no doubt entered into and characterised his ministry, as in 2 Corinthians 12. There is the distinctive side in Acts 9, the Lord personally taking a hand in the arresting and apprehension of Saul, and the Lord referring to him in His word to Ananias, “this man is an elect vessel to me.” Then we may see later on the distinctiveness that appears in relation to the gospel which he preached and the Lord’s supper which he received; and then in the Colossian and Ephesian letters especially to reach the great thoughts of finality that appear particularly in the Ephesian letter in regard to the assembly in Christ Jesus. There are the great marital thoughts and family thoughts that flood the epistle to the Ephesians as what is final is brought before the saints. I thought that a consideration of himself personally in these passages would indicate the distinctiveness that the Lord has in mind in his service and ministry, especially having the assembly in view, for it is Paul’s ministry that opens out and develops the truth of the assembly.

AJG Have you in mind at all that Paul was himself to exemplify the truth which he ministered? Does that additional feature come into it?

SMcC Yes, I am thinking of that in a special way, and also, that he was distinctive as a sufferer. He suffered as very few others outside of Christ have suffered; and the manner of his life was all in accord with his ministry. It is all setting out the distinctiveness that the Lord had in mind in the ministry and service of such a vessel, in raising him up as He did.

AEM Have you in mind that in introducing this subject of finality, the Lord is near? We must take on these exercises right away?

SMcC That is exactly what is in mind, the imminence of the translation, the shortness of the time. It is important that Paul’s ministry and what it sets out should be laid hold of in all that it involves; whether on the lower line, involving what is practical and searching, or on the higher more elevated line, involving what is so enriching and stimulating.

AH You remarked that the Lord appears to take a very personal hand in dealing with Saul. Would you say how that impresses you?

SMcC It seems to me that in view of the assembly, and the greatness of the assembly in the Lord’s eyes and affections, and in view of the unfolding of the truth of the assembly in its heavenly relations, the Lord is very selective. He entrusts this service to no other, but He comes into it personally especially from the heavenly side. That is, it is an intervention from heaven, for the heavenly side is going to open up in the ministry of this servant, and the Lord intervenes from the heavenly side Himself.

PL How selective the Lord was in relation to the pearl, “having found one pearl of great value.” Would this choice of Paul follow on that?

SMcC It would. So that the assembly is very select in that way. The refinement that is linked with the assembly stands out in all its distinctiveness and, as we shall see, heavenly refinement stands out in Paul in all its distinctiveness.

LES Is there something distinctive in the fact of Saul being at the stoning of the martyr Stephen, bearing upon the suffering side?

SMcC I think there is. As we know, it was a transitional moment; God had borne with Jerusalem and what was there, but at that moment we get the transference of things to heaven. Stephen looks into heaven and sees the new centre of operations, and Saul comes on to view at that juncture. It is all pointing, I think, to the way the heavenly side is coming on to view.

RWS So that heaven intervenes in this section we have read, and finally in 2 Timothy and several times in between in the apostle’s service we have the Lord appearing to him. Are not these appearings important in relation to this service and ministry?

SMcC They are, because they give the distinctive touch to service in ministry. With those that serve, it is important that there should be some experience of this kind of thing. Of course we must bear in mind the special elect vessel that Paul was, but there should be some experience in those that serve in view of distinctiveness of these kind of movements on the part of the Lord.

JVanS Would you say a word please in relation to Galatians 1: 15, in connection with selection?” But when God, who set me apart even from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son in me.”

SMcC He is showing, in that letter, that he was specially marked out in connection with his service, set apart so early. It particularly comes in over against the elements of Judaism that were asserting themselves in the province of Galatia.

AJG So that God’s Son was revealed in him. Does that involve that the dignity and liberty of sonship in its true heavenly character was to be seen in Paul?

SMcC I thought it did. It brings in the line of what is distinctive in that way. It is not just that He was revealed to him, as to Peter, but He was revealed in him, meaning that it would characterise him in all his service and preaching.

APCL Does the selection of Damascus as the location for this enter into what you have in mind? He is not converted in Jerusalem. Did not the Lord extract him from that setting in order that His work might not be impaired by anything that would damage what is heavenly?

SMcC It is very interesting that the Lord, we might say, selects the position in which He will affect him. How often we see that principle operating! The Lord meets an issue, not where we think it might be met, but according to His own wisdom and His own selection. That is a great thing, especially in conflict, and this matter here involved conflict, for Saul was at war with the saints.

LES Do you think in view of his ministry as to the assembly, that we could link this with Genesis 24, as to Damascus, and why Damascus was selected?

SMcC There might be something in that; I had not thought of it. It is striking that it was removed from Jerusalem. That is, it was removed from the sphere of religious influence and religious prejudice; as if the Lord would have a free hand, and a free right of way, in view of the heavenly side of the truth, and the assembly in her heavenly character, which He had in mind to bring in through this vessel.

PHH Is His interest strengthened by the introduction of the Lord’s own voice? It says, “falling on the earth he heard a voice saying to him,” and there are other mentions there too. The Lord is intervening, not only with light and the arresting of the vessel, but there is His own personal expression of things in the voice.

SMcC I think that helps. The voice intensifies the thought of the personal appearance of Christ to Saul at this moment. All the influence of personality would enter into that voice, the voice of Jesus, “I am Jesus.” What a voice it was!

PHH Did Saul seem, perhaps dimly, to have some conviction about it immediately, by the way that he answers, “Who art thou, Lord?” It says of John in the Revelation that he “turned back to see the voice which spoke,” Revelation 1: 12. Would it be right to say that Saul seems to grasp some kind of significance in what the Lord says?

SMcC I would think he did. It is interesting, his immediate answer when he heard the voice, “Who art thou, Lord?” He did not just say, ‘Who art thou?’, but “Who art thou, Lord?” There was some immediate recognition on his part of who the Person was. He was no ordinary Person.

GRC Are the circumstances somewhat similar in Matthew 16, where it says, “when Jesus was come into the parts of Caesarea-Philippi”? It is there that He says “Who do ye say that I am?”, and it is there that He discloses the truth of the assembly and speaks of the Father revealing it to Peter.

SMcC I think that helps. It shows how careful divine Persons are in regard to the choice subjects of Their operations and the selection of circumstances in which Their operations work, so that we are free from what might impair or damage. The principle of that would enter in, I suppose, to many matters. Sickness comes in and infirmity of body and detention in certain circumstances; all that brings in the Lord’s way of operating in regard to matters to help us, and to help the assembly.

PL That is seen in its excellence in Paul being detained in prison, where these rich epistles of heavenly ministry came from.

SMcC Well, there we have a very full allusion to what we are saying. The most of us here would recall the readings in this very hall on “Paul’s ministry and the Service of God,” when that very thing was referred to. The Lord was operating from His own side to remove the servant from anything that would blight or impair or hinder the full heavenly distinction of the assembly as it appears in those letters. And I believe, in all the pressure of the present moment, the deaths and the sicknesses and other matters, that we are being impressed by the Lord emphasising His right to do as He will, in order that the full value and distinctiveness of the heavenly side might appear in the saints.

JSE Would it be just to enquire at this point whether Stephen had a special touch just before his martyrdom, for it says of him that he fixed his eyes on heaven? But when he speaks to the people he speaks of seeing the heavens opened. Would this allusion to his fixing his eyes on heaven suggest something of an expectation that an entirely new move was coming by that way and does chapter 9 show how it comes?

SMcC I think there is something interesting in that. It is prefaced by saying, “being full of the Holy Spirit, having fixed his eyes on heaven, he saw the glory of God,” Acts 7: 55. It is as if he were a vessel that was so filled with the Spirit that he sensed the new departure in divine movements and divine operations. I think if we are like Stephen, the Spirit must come into this matter, in the sense that if we are accustomed to making room for the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit, we shall sense divine movements and operations, even if it may involve what is drastic, as it did then.

SWP Might I enquire whether the “I am” of Acts 9: 5, “I am Jesus,” has some reference to His deity, while ‘Jesus’ stresses the side of His manhood?

SMcC The very name Jesus carries a touch as to that in itself, and Saul recognises, even if it is instinctively, that he is in the presence of Someone very great. He says, “Who art thou, Lord?”; it is no ordinary Person he is in the presence of.

JMcK Does the light out of heaven link on with the sound out of heaven, as though the matter is to be given impetus from heaven itself, and that impetus is to abide?

SMcC I think so. I think we should see more this matter of heaven and how it is intervening here, especially if we are to reach what is distinctive and final we must come to what is heavenly. It is on that line that what is distinctive and what is final are brought before us.

CMM Would Paul’s initial experience here give him, right through his life, ever to hold the gospel as intimately intertwined with the assembly? The Lord in His skill puts Paul in touch with a brother, with a local assembly?

SMcC That is a very important matter. The Lord refers to him in that lowly way, “I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest,” identifying Himself with the saints in the suffering way and position, and then He says in verse 6, “But rise up and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.” Then there come into operation the spiritual facilities in a locality to serve persons such as Saul of Tarsus, all bringing out and emphasising the importance of the local position.

ABP Would that be like the half-dead man being brought to the inn? I was wondering if the service of the Samaritan in Luke 10 is not seen filled out in our passage before us. The half-dead man is taken into the inn where he is cared for; so we have the initial impressions received and the power of the kingdom operating?

SMcC There is a link in that way, the local position being what is provisional, but it is the place where we are served and cared for. That brings up the question as to whether we value our local positions. The value of the position in the city is one of the first impressions from heaven that is conveyed to Paul.

ABP I just thought when you laid emphasis on the word ‘must,’ that you possibly had in mind the authority of the voice of the local assembly.

SMcC I think we need to see that, and especially when you think of such an one as Saul was and what he represents. It is especially important with those that have any part in service that the value and the dignity and the authority of the local assembly should be recognised.

FDW So that it says in Galatians those at Jerusalem communicated nothing to him, but he would not say that as to the saints at Damascus, would he?

SMcC No, certainly he would not. When he said that, he was referring not to the local assembly in the sense in which we are speaking of it; he was seeking to maintain the heavenly distinctiveness of his own ministry as free from all metropolitan influence. We want to be free from any earthly metropolitan influence, for our metropolis is in heaven, where Jesus is, and we want to see what is worked out commensurate with that in local assemblies in the presence of the Spirit here below.

JSE Is that why Luke, a Gentile, is selected to write this history?

SMcC Yes, that is interesting, because his gospel largely emphasises the thought of locality, the Lord being in certain places. The idea of locality is greatly emphasised in his gospel.

AH Speaking of the local assembly, and those who serve having right respect and really gaining from it, is that seen with Paul in an enlarged way in chapter 22? He tells us something there that Luke does not tell us here; for instance, he has to be stimulated about baptism?

SMcC Just so, apparently he was tarrying; so that we get the facility in operation to help him in that regard. You see, when we return to our local positions, there are facilities that are not found perhaps in the same way in going around. In the local positions there are all the facilities to help us in whatever way we need help, and we all need help. It is good to see the value of the local position in that sense, because the man that the Lord sovereignly selects to open up the wealth of the assembly in relation to heavenly thoughts is the man that values the local position.

JPH It says about Paul and his company at the end of Acts 14 that they returned to Antioch and they stayed no little time with the disciples there, from whence they had gone out.

SMcC That is they had a base to which they returned.

RWS Those facilities that you spoke of involve a house as well as what is local. Is not that important? It says in verse 11, “And the Lord said to him, Rise up and go into the street which is called Straight, and seek in the house of Judas one by name Saul, he is of Tarsus.” I was thinking of the house and the matter of entertaining as well as what is local.

SMcC I am sure it is important to see how our houses and local positions come into matters, and how they may become part of the spiritual facilities which serve the work of God in liberating what there may be linked with it. What a value it puts on our houses! But it raises the question as to what goes on in our houses, and whether they are available in the way of a facility to serve what comes into our midst.

PL Apollos was thus served by Aquila and Priscilla.

SMcC Exactly, they “took him to them,” Acts 18: 26. I suppose they would have had him home. Not that we want to conjecture, or put into Scripture what is not there, but I suppose the force of it is there. They did not do it publicly, they took him to them.

EAK Are these facilities you speak of seen in Corinth? On the one hand there is the subjective representation of it in the household of Chloe, and then we have Paul’s estimate of the local assembly in the expressions “the assembly of God which is at Corinth,” and “a chaste virgin espoused to Christ,” despite the conditions?

SMcC It shows what God can do and how things can be preserved despite current influences that may be abroad, wherever we are. It is very striking (it is a most interesting study in itself) to see how Paul was served in relation to households, and it is he, and he specially, in the assembly epistles who brings up the thought of the households and gives instructions in regard to them.

RH It is like Rahab’s house, and the way she received the spies in peace, and sent them out another way.

SMcC You can see how she was ready for that, and how she served them.

AJG You would say that the houses and the local assemblies must be held and regulated by the light of what is heavenly.

SMcC That is why I referred to Paul’s allusions, specially in Ephesians and Colossians, to the matter of households and relations in households. It does not come out in Romans or Corinthians; it comes out in these letters where the heavenly side is particularly in mind.

AJG Might I ask further whether, in stressing the distinctiveness of what is heavenly, we need to bear in mind that what is heavenly takes character from the second Man out of heaven? I wonder whether we sufficiently realise the magnitude of the fact that One of the Godhead has entered into manhood to give character to all that God is bringing to pass in men. What would you say?

SMcC It is a very striking thing. I have pondered that verse in 1 Corinthians 15 overnight, yesterday and the days before. It is a remarkable verse, “Such as he made of dust, such also those made of dust; and such as the heavenly one, such also the heavenly ones,” verse 48. And in John’s gospel, John the baptist alludes to Him, “He who comes from above, is above all,” John 3: 31. I think what you say is very affecting, that One of the Godhead has come into a position where He becomes the great pattern and model to which we are all to be conformed in a heavenly way.

PL And the power to do it, comes out of heaven in another Person of the Godhead.

SMcC It is very affecting that another divine Person, sent from heaven, is here to bring us into conformity to what is heavenly and to maintain us in regard to what is heavenly.

PHH Is it very touching that the man who specially had this heavenly ministry was down here at the beginning of his service subject to the assembly? Would you say that, practically speaking, it does become an important point. We may speak of the assembly and what is heavenly, but as to personally being subject, and that immediately to the assembly, is not that a practical power in the ministry?

SMcC I think we are all searched by it. Some of us come from other parts and are away for two or three weeks; well, it is a great thing to get back to your own locality, at least I feel it is so. I am thankful to God for my own locality and for the spiritual facilities there to help me in it. I think we need to see the value of the local assembly, that we all have as a base, and to have the right respect for it and the right regard for it.

JM Would you say that in our localities in view of making way for the heavenly side, we need to be prepared to change our ideas about persons? There was what Ananias had heard concerning Saul, but now he is to think of him as an elect vessel to Christ.

SMcC It is important to see that. We should always be prepared for what heaven is doing in that way. It is very touching the way that the Lord has personal relations, not only with Saul, we have been speaking about Saul, but with Ananias. He seems to know Ananias well, and Ananias seems to know Him well. There is thus a certain ease in the relations between the Lord and Ananias that is very affecting in this section, in serving Saul of Tarsus.

SWP If we undervalue the local position shall we fail to get the gain of what the Spirit is doing at the moment? In 1 Samuel 10 Saul was affected for the moment, but it did not last.

SMcC I am sure that many of us here have seen in the little history as to time that we have had (some have had a long history and could speak of it better) persons that thought that they were greater than the local assembly and they came to disaster. We will always come to disaster if we do not have right regard and respect for our local brethren.

JSE Is it not remarkable that when Uriah was called to see David, his first observation in reply stood related to the ark, and his last observation to the official man who was leading? I thought it was a kind of implementing of what you have just said.

Joab was a man who was extremely official, but when Urijah gave his reply to David his first mention was the ark, and then he puts Israel and Judah in between the ark and Joab. I wondered if there is not something in that former statement to illustrate negatively what you are at.

SMcC I think there is, I think (I speak for myself) that those of us who travel a little bit, and serve in a little way, if we are not on our guard we may tend to become official. Therefore the importance of the local company and the local setting, where we work out things in a practical way, and come back to what is ordinary, we might say.

ABP So that would you say it is not without design that Paul refers to the basket in the end of chapter 11 before he proceeds with chapter 12? Is not the basket an important facility in the local setting?

SMcC It is, so that we have many facilities in that way in the local setting to serve us in whatever way we need to be served.

AEM Is it of importance that the servant should have the confidence of the local brethren?

SMcC It is a great matter. It means everything to those that serve, specially if they move out in any way. And it is important, on the other hand, that the local brethren should recognise what is in their midst, and get the gain of it. Sometimes it takes years, but as we are with the Lord there will be no irksomeness or chafing under it. We can wait His time, but the Lord would teach us the value of the local setting here as it appears in relation to Saul at the outset of his links with the Lord.

AHn Would you say something more as to spiritual manifestations in the locality. You referred to it earlier.

SMcC I was thinking of how the Lord appears to Saul of Tarsus. There was, of course, what was distinctive to him, for the matter of his apostleship was bound up with it. But then he refers to it in Acts 26: 16, “For this purpose have I appeared to thee ... and of what I shall appear to thee in,” meaning that the appearing was not just an historical matter that subsided or was discontinued, but it was to characterise the whole of his service.

VCL Do you think that there is an important matter in the three days in Saul’s history, involving some apprehension of the truth of resurrection before he experiences and values the help available locally?

SMcC I would think that something was wrought with him in those days of helplessness and feebleness and weakness that would greatly serve him in meeting the facilities that were operating in relation to him.

VCL I wondered if 1 Corinthians 15, the great chapter unfolding the truth of the resurrection, did not find some sway over his soul in this experience so that his links with the Lord were coloured by it?

SMcC No doubt they were.

TJG The first thing that the Lord said about Saul was “behold, he is praying.”

SMcC Well, what a tribute that is to him! It is a great thing in regard to ourselves that we should be marked by praying. That is, “he is praying,” not ‘he has prayed,’ but “he is praying,” as if it is a characteristic feature with him. I am sure that we need to be marked by being praying persons, even if we have to pray all night. It is a great thing to be marked by praying.

TJG So that it is very significant that the greatest and richest unfolding of the truth comes in the two prayers of the Ephesian epistle.

SMcC Yes, he alludes to prayer and the power of it there, both on the objective side and the subjective side.

GRC Could we have more help as to the Lord’s appearance to Ananias, and how he bears on the local administration? He is just called a certain disciple, but would he be morally an elder, and would it indicate how the Lord would help in eldership in a locality?

SMcC I would think so. The Lord knows the personnel, and there are those He has confidence in and He can call upon. Ananias apparently was available in regard to this service, and that is a great thing in localities, do not you think?

GRC I was wondering whether we should look out for that more, especially when we have cases of interested souls where there may appear to be some complications.

SMcC I am sure we should. We should be on the alert and available at any moment for what the Lord may indicate in anything that may be required as to what comes amongst us.

APCL And would the salutary side be seen in the fact that He says to Ananias, “Go”? As regards Saul himself it is “what thou must do.” But is there not the side of strict obedience to what the Lord has in view in the locality, and is that in extension the school of Tyrannus in Ephesus?

SMcC Just so; the Lord enters into conversation with him. It is very affecting how Ananias says in verse 11, “Behold, here am I, Lord,” and the Lord tells him to rise up and go into the street which is called Straight. Then Ananias converses with the Lord over this matter of Saul and what he has done, and then the Lord brings in the peremptory word, “Go, for this man is an elect vessel to me.” I suppose we must have a sense of the Lord’s authority in these matters. The reference to “the elect vessel” is, of course, a special touch as to Paul’s distinctiveness, and specially bears on the great feature of the heavenly side that is to be opened up and the truth of the assembly. When we come to 2 Corinthians 12 we get this unique distinctiveness seen in his reference to “a man in Christ ... caught up into Paradise,” and the things that he heard and then the coming back. I think we are to see in that way in regard to the heavenly side of the truth that there is what is distinctive lying behind it.

JBS Would you say why the matter of visions and revelations is connected with the Lord in the first verse of 2 Corinthians 12?

SMcC I think he is referring to the whole domain as under the Lord’s control and authority, the whole realm of what is unseen. The unseen world is all under the Lord’s control in that sense and the visions and the revelations are bearing on the unseen world, the realm of what is spiritual and heavenly.

PHH Does this chapter 12 appear to you to be a somewhat early experience? As he writes here he speaks of having had the experience apparently fourteen years before, which would make it comparatively early. Does it enter into your thoughts about Paul and what is heavenly and distinctive?

SMcC It does, because the whole range of what is in Christ as suggested here, while it includes more than what is heavenly, involves what is heavenly as far as Paul is concerned. The realm of new creation, as we have part in it, would be in mind, but it is interesting that while he is speaking about an experience that occurred fourteen years ago, he says “I know.” He does not say ‘I knew a man in Christ,’ he says, “I know.” He was taking account of the thing abstractly, and yet we have the great reference to “I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago.”

PHH Do you think that the footnote about conscious knowledge would mean that he had not only known it as an experience, but it governed him consciously in his knowledge from that time onwards? So that the heavenly side really kept him at the level in his own mind, of the truth, and especially what the Lord had given him to minister.

SMcC I am sure it does, I think this underlies the epistle to the Ephesians and the richness and the fulness that enter into it. We are not dealing here exactly with the family, it is God and Paradise and “in Christ,” a vast realm of things so excellent, so great, that Paul is referring to, and he is caught up into that environment, but I am sure it underlies the richness and fulness that we have in the great heavenly epistle, Ephesians.

AJG Had you any thought as to why he speaks of what he heard? He says nothing about seeing anything, but he speaks all the time of what he heard. On the other hand, in Revelation. John was constantly seeing fresh things, was he not?

SMcC It is a very interesting thing that in regard to the thought of Paradise and what corresponds with it. John saw it, but Paul’s emphasis is on hearing. I think we need to see that side in relation to Paul’s experience, the importance of having ears attuned to what is spiritual and what is heavenly in this setting.

ABP In relation to his distinctive ministry in the gospel at Corinth, and also the Supper, he speaks of having received. Would that be the spiritual result of right hearing? It is not simply that the Lord told him, but he received from the Lord.

SMcC It would bring out in this vessel, in Paul, how his senses were acute, that there was nothing dull with him. His senses were acute, especially this matter of hearing, which I think is important in regard to this realm and environment. In these meetings we are so prone to think of what we will say, and the part that we will take, but there must be alongside of it this great element of hearing, and what precedes these matters, there must be this thought of hearing.

PHH How far exactly does the expression go, “which it is not allowed to man to utter”? I am not ignoring the note down below, but would you mind giving us your impression of that?

SMcC I think the note helps as to the things said. You will notice that the word ‘said’ involves ‘rhema,’ not ‘logos.’ That is, it is fresh living communications, as the note says, ‘The things said which he “heard” were not suited to this lower world and our mortal condition; that is, not merely like heathen mysteries, dreadful forms of speech.’ The things were suited to the heavenly scene and the heavenly environment, but not suited to the mortal condition here below. So that I think it lays open to us what may be anticipated, what is in prospect, what is possible for us on this line of elevation.

LES The footnote refers to John 17: 8 and that greatly helps us, “for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them, and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me.”

SMcC Yes. What communications they were, fresh living communications these words contained!

ANW While they were unspeakable things, did they not affect every saying and everything he did utter himself?

SMcC Yes, they were all there in the treasury we might say. What a treasury Paul was! What distinctiveness there was, what resources he could draw upon, in that sense. All these impressions would be in the treasury, and the assembly would get the gain of what was resident in Paul’s treasury.

RGB In the mount of Transfiguration, whilst what was to be seen is referred to, the Father’s voice says, “This is my beloved Son; hear him.” He lays stress on the hearing.

SMcC Yes, that is very interesting. How much the hearing is referred to as we come into the heavenly environment and the environment of the glory. Well, this experience of Paul, while special and unique to him, should challenge us as to what we know of this kind of thing, whether, especially with those that serve, there is a secret and private side undisclosed that enters into and lies behind their ministry.

MHT Does the fact that Paul uses the present tense, and says, “I know a man in Christ” show that the Lord’s preventative discipline had preserved him with the impression fresh and living?

SMcC Yes, it shows that the thing had been preserved with him unimpaired. That is, it was just as conscious to him then as it was when the experience took place, “I know a man in Christ.” It is remarkable how he regards himself in that way. We have to be sober about these matters and we have to take a view objectively of ourselves and see that the flesh is the flesh, whether taken up as far as the third heaven, as Paul was, or whether coming down again, the flesh is the flesh wherever it is. It is unchanged and incorrigible; therefore the necessity of discipline to keep us all regulated.

PHH Does that mean that the “man in Christ” suggests something which is true of each one of us in a certain sense, which is greater than all service? We are to keep close to that knowledge and it would prevent us from living in or pursuing after service, as such, would it not?

SMcC I am sure it would. Because the “man in Christ” is not a question of his gift, it is not a question of his apostolic authority; it is a question of the formation that was there and Paul’s conscious knowledge of it. We should all in that way have some conscious knowledge as to what we have arrived at in our souls.

PHH I was just thinking that, and the heavenly status involved in the person, “a man in Christ.”

SMcC That is the point. We will see it as we pursue these readings, the final side involving the richness and the fulness of this status as Ephesians opens it out.

APCL In connection with “the man in Christ” could you distinguish between “of such a one” and “but of myself”? How do you think he does not attach that exactly to himself?

SMcC I think he is thinking of his natural make up, and his condition as still in the mortal body. We cannot glory in ourselves on that line, but we can glory in the “man in Christ,” because that involves the work of God. That involves a new state in which the flesh has no place at all. But in the mortal condition here, the flesh is still present and any glorying in that would lead to disaster.

APCL But you would not in any sense divorce the one from the other in what you are saying, it is a question of the one coming into line with the other, is it?

SMcC Just so. As I was saying earlier, “I know a man in Christ” is really an abstract view that he takes of himself.

JHS Does star differing from star in glory involve the substantial idea of heavenly personality there?

SMcC I think it does. Therefore we should be concerned, in that way, as to what we can say of this kind of thing, and the elevation, the refinement and the richness that are linked with it.

JSE Would it be right to ask if Paul’s enigmatical mode of approach to this in this chapter is on account of the state of the persons he is writing to? When we come to what you speak of as the more refined features of his ministry, there is sympathetic feelings towards him in the recognition of his distinctiveness, so that there is a fulness in the presentation of matters?

SMcC Yes. You can see that he could not open out much on the line of this elevation to the Corinthians. He had to say to them, in the first letter, “I, brethren, have not been able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly; as to babes in Christ,” 1 Corinthians 3: 1. But there was a different state in Ephesians. Then we have here the limitations that even in a great servant like Paul, the Lord does not remove. Therefore we have to understand with the Lord what our limitations are and it raises the question as to whether we accept them and find the grace that Christ would give to accept them.

AHn In that connection, would you say something about verse 10, a most testing verse, “Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, in straits, for Christ: for when I am weak, then I am powerful”? I wondered whether this great buoyancy of knowing something of “a man in Christ” would enable us, in some measure, to speak like that.

SMcC It would. It shows what a fully delivered man Paul was, how he had a full consciousness of deliverance. The flesh thus added nothing to him, he took pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in necessities, in persecutions, and in straits for Christ, and he says, “for when I am weak, then I am powerful.” I think we want to see the importance of our limitations and our discipline; it is so essential to keep us lowly and humble, and each knows his discipline, each knows his limitations and what the Lord has designed to keep him in safety.