THE EXPANSE (3)

THE EXPANSE (3)

Revelation 4 entire; Revelation 10:1-4; Revelation 10:8-11; Revelation 15:1-4

SMcC For the benefit of those who were not here yesterday it may be said that we are considering the thought of the expanse, as it is referred to in Genesis 1. We read the section in Genesis 1 linked with the second, third and fourth days; taking account of how the expanse is presented there as a sphere or realm of heavenly power in relation to the earth. We also read and considered part of Job 38, in which there are remarkable allusions to the hidden reserves and secret resources of God linked with the expanse to meet things as they arise and to supply what is needed, where it is needed. In the second reading we considered Abraham and Jacob and Joseph, and how the thought of what is heavenly is emphasised in the new departure in God’s ways in calling out a people from a world of idolatry, as Abraham was called, and separated from that scene and those conditions of idolatry. One thing that is linked with the thought of the expanse is division, separation, and in Abraham we see how God separated a people to the hopes that are suited to the majesty and the love of Him who called them. We saw the great features of what is heavenly in that section bearing upon Abraham, the thought of blessing, so rich and so full, that comes into chapter 14 through the ministry of Melchisedec, and into chapter 22 based upon the burnt-offering. Then in Jacob we noticed the early impressions that God put upon him as to the gate of heaven, and the house of God, and also the intimate link between the expanse and what is down here, suggested in the ladder set up upon the earth. Then in Joseph we have his dream in regard to the great and vast system of things that is subjected to His supremacy, reference being made in the reading, in a touching way, to the fact that in Ephesians the Lord is viewed as having gone above all heavens. We have the great supremacy of Christ in the scene of glory, so that the sun and the moon and the stars are all subject to Him as typified in Joseph. It is thought now that we should consider the last book in the Scriptures, and see in it the bearing of the expanse and what is heavenly upon the whole question that has arisen in connection with evil and lawlessness. As the choice hymn we sang yesterday so aptly puts it -

“Evil’s challenge, long permitted -
Met by Thy supremacy - “(101:3)

One of the striking things about this book is the way that divine supremacy meets the evil long tolerated and allowed. Men, in infidelity and unbelief, challenge God as to why He allows the evil to continue if He be God, but, in the permitting and allowance of the evil, what a range of moral glory, and glory linked with divine operations has come on to view! The taking up of Israel, the tabernacle and the temple glory, the coming in of Christ, the incarnation and the work of redemption, the ascension into glory, the coming of the Spirit and the formation of the assembly - all that enters into the period of evil’s challenge long being permitted. This book would show the great result as evil is met by divine supremacy, and the throne set in the heavens imparts a wonderful touch as to divine majesty, in the setting in which it appears in chapter 4. We should see the various features that are linked with it and how, in the end of the chapter - however glorious the position in which the elders may be and however distinctive their place and what attaches to them as indicated in the many crowns - all is absorbed in the splendour and majesty of Him who continues unchanging, and in the great note of homage and worship. Then in chapter 10 it is in mind to see the way in which Christ is presented as coming in in relation to the little opened book, and all the features of the expanse that are linked with Him in the type or figure of the angel, as it says, “I saw another strong angel coming down out of the heaven, clothed with a cloud, and the rainbow upon his head, and his countenance as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire, and having in his hand a little opened book.” The “little opened book” is connected with the wealth of the glory that is linked with the expanse, it having to do with the practical bearing of the truth upon us down here, as the eating of it in the latter part of the chapter indicates. Then latterly we have the great and wonderful sign seen in the heavens. We get great signs before, but when we come to chapter 15 there is an adjective added, “I saw another sign in the heaven, great and wonderful.” Then we get the “seven angels having seven plagues, the last; for in them the fury of God is completed,” and then the wonderful scene of heavenly glory in the glass sea. Although the imagery bears on what is on the earth, it is linked with the heavenly position, and the company is referred to as “those that had gained the victory over the beast, and over its image, and over the number of its name, standing upon the glass sea, having harps of God.” That is, the having harps of God warrant us in linking it with the heavenly scene. But we begin now with the great matter of the throne and then this afternoon we may see the feminine side in relation to the woman in travail, and then the Lamb’s wife, all meeting evil’s challenge long permitted. Then, perhaps, tomorrow, if the Lord should tarry, we may consider Ephesians and the fulness linked with the expanse as it appears in the spiritual teaching of that letter.

JMcK Would you expect to find, in the book of Revelation, a complete answer and vindication of the design of Genesis 1? In the ascription of praise at the end of chapter 4, no part of the creation is excluded, all is to vibrate with the praise of Him that sits upon the throne.

SMcC Yes, that is one of the main thoughts in having the whole chapter read, that we should see the great link with Genesis 1. It is not only the redeemed company, chapter 5 brings the thought of redemption in, but it is the whole created scene and sphere, the whole vault of creation, resounding with the homage and worship of Him in whose glory all must be eventually absorbed.

RGB Does the appearance so many times in this book of the title, “Lord God Almighty,” have a bearing on the majesty of God in His operations from the beginning to the end?

SMcC I thought it does, especially bringing Deity before us. Deity in a peculiar way is linked with this title in the book of the Revelation, entering into the operations in a significant way.

ERS In Isaiah 45 God speaks of Himself as creating evil. Would you say a word about that?

SMcC What do you have in mind? Perhaps if we got a little what you were thinking about we might be better able to answer it.

ERS I had in mind that it went beyond permitting. God permits it; but in Isaiah it says that He creates it.

SMcC But you are not thinking of moral evil when you say that, are you?

CH Ought not the context of that scripture to be examined? It reads, “I am Jehovah, and there is none else; forming the light and creating darkness, making peace and creating evil: I, Jehovah, do all these things,” Isaiah 45: 6, 7. That is not evil in the moral sense, is it?

SMcC I think it is very important that we should see that. Evil in a moral sense does not have its origin in God. It has its origin in the devil, in Satan, who is the father of lies. We have to see just what is referred to there.

WWS Is this not evil in the sense of calamity, standing over against the thought of peace?

SMcC Yes, “making peace, and creating evil.” It has to do with God’s governmental operations in certain circumstances that are made in which in relation to Israel and the opening up of things, His glory shines. It is not creating evil in the sense of pride and lies and lust. Is that clear to our brother?

ERS Yes, I think so, thank you.

JTS Is there a similar word in Amos 3: 6, “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? Shall there be evil in a city, and Jehovah not have done it?” The footnote is, ‘Or “not have acted.”’ That is a similar reference. We could never think of God as creating evil in the sense of pride and lust and all that issues from that. Satan is the source from whom these things have sprung.

CRB Would a verse in Ezekiel 28 help, speaking of the king of Tyre (verse 15), “Thou wast perfect in thy ways, from the day that thou wast created, till unrighteousness was found in thee.”

SMcC That bears on what we are saying as to what he is as the source from which lawlessness springs. Lawlessness does not emanate from God, whereas righteousness does.

CMM There is a verse in Job 26 (verse 13), “By his spirit the heavens are adorned; his hand hath formed the fleeing serpent.” Would that show the Spirit’s operations in the expanse, the heavens, yet how this serpent has invaded that territory?

SMcC Just so. So that leviathan is gone over in great detail at the end of the book of Job. The link with the expanse in the passage you refer to is interesting, whereas leviathan is linked with the sea, what is down here.

LWT Does the wealth of scripture between the book of Genesis and the Revelation give us an impression on the one hand of the “long permitted”; but on the other, of the compressed nature of divine operations in meeting it?

SMcC Yes. It is interesting to see how the feature of compression enters into the Scriptures. If man had had to do with the events that are outlined for us in the Scriptures, there is no library in Doncaster that would hold the books. But think of how God can eliminate details and focus our attention on the main points in His operations; we are greatly impressed with that.

AJG So that the permission of evil for so long has become the occasion, has it not, for the longsuffering of God to be expressed? It says in Romans 9: 22, “And if God, minded to shew his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.”

SMcC Very good. It touches the affections to think of God, how long He has waited, even in regard to the matter of sins and the passing by of sins. Think of how long God waited to be justified, till we come to Romans 3, and yet the many sins that were passed by as we think of David and others. God waited all through the centuries until Jesus came and the work of atonement was made. He waited for His justification. It is very affecting to think of that, the long suffering of God.

JMcK Is not this chapter, chapter 4, a vindication of the patience and operations of God, in that He not only has the throne unassailably, but there is a sympathetic environment of the throne and so much that is in keeping with it, in holiness, in the divine nature and in every attribute of God?

SMcC I thought all that should help us in its practical bearing on ourselves at the present time, that we should see what this involves in our own links with the throne in this majestic setting. There are the evidences of divine faithfulness and divine glory and the presence of the Spirit in the judicial way in which He is viewed, and the presence of the abiding state of purity and stainlessness, as another has alluded to it, and then the living creatures, and the ceasing not day and night saying “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.” All this is written to be testified in the local assemblies, that there might be something effected by it.

JMcK So that it is not simply a matter of God overturning evil in His might, but having resources in the assembly, working this matter out, and as we were interested in seeing, in dividing between light and darkness. Everything around the throne is thus sympathetically with God.

SMcC And that is a great matter. Is it not striking that before we enter upon the overthrow of evil in the world, by the sweeping judgments of God, our eyes should be riveted on this view of the throne and Deity in relation to it, and all that is consistent with it?

CMM Is there a veiled reminder of the rapture in verse 1; and the assembly’s place in heaven?

SMcC I thought there was, “Come up here.” If we are going to get this view, we must understand what this “Come up here” means. In order to get a right view of the working out of the great operations of God, we have to see them from this point of vantage.

ACSP Is there something important in the stress on the fact that the One is sitting?

SMcC I think so. I think it contributes to the majesty, that there is no thought of undue haste. Although we have the lightnings and the thunders going forth from the throne, yet, we have the One sitting on the throne, and then we have the elders, too, around the throne, in holy restful composure.

WW Is it significant that we have always to remember that Satan is only a creature?

SMcC Yes. It is very important to remember that; Satan, in that way, is limited; whereas the God that is before us in relation to the throne in all His majesty here is unlimited, either as to constant unchanging Being, or in regard to operations; He is not restricted or limited like Satan. Satan is not omniscient. God is.

JM Is there not something comforting for us in chapter 1, where we have, “Grace to you and peace from him who is, and who was, and who is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness.” Are the resources of the throne involved in that, in view of the present dispensation and the finalising of God’s thoughts in regard to the assembly?

SMcC I think they are. And we must take account of our dispensation, although literally and dispensationally this refers to the post-assembly period. But there is another view of it that we are to take account of, namely the protracted view in the Revelation, and in order to get the protracted scale, as J.N.D. refers to it, we have got to “Come up here.” That is, we have got to get the view from the expanse, from heaven, in regard to how all these matters work out.

GHSP Is there any moral link in that connection with the throne standing in the heavens, and the way those that bear responsibility locally are addressed as stars in the earlier chapters? I am asking for help about the reference, for example, in the last verse of chapter 1, where the seven stars are said to be angels of the seven assemblies, and the way that element is addressed in each assembly. I wondered if there was any link in the elevated idea, bearing on what you were saying yesterday about the stars.

SMcC I think there is a distinct link. We have the remarkable way in which the symbols come in in the opening of the book, even as to the Lord Himself. His countenance being as the sun in its strength; and then the allusion to the stars, in relation to the assemblies, all bears on what we have before us.

APCL This chapter opens “After these things.” Do you think that it is necessary for us to pursue with the Lord what has gone before in the previous chapters, if we are to get in any sense an entrance into this side of the truth?

SMcC I thought so. You are thinking of “After these things” in its moral bearing. I think there is something that we are to notice in that. As we are prepared to move with the Lord Jesus in His judicial capacity, and face the whole matter of public failure in the history of the assembly, and also to be with Him in regard to what He has in Philadelphia, then we are ready for what we have here.

DWG Would you say a word now on verse 2, “Immediately I became in the Spirit”? Would you say something about that exercise of becoming in the Spirit?

SMcC I think it is very affecting, in the book of the Revelation, to see the different ways in which the Spirit is available. It is very touching that the Spirit is so near by John, and so near by others. I mean, for instance, in that reference in chapter 14: 13, “And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying, Write, Blessed the dead who die in the Lord from henceforth. Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow with them.” One of the most affecting things in the book of the Revelation is the nearness of the Spirit to the saints, and His availability for the different situations in which divine operations are working out.

DWG In dealing with Genesis 1 yesterday, you said much about faith; now have we the Spirit available, and an exercise that we should take up,

to become “in the Spirit,” so that we may be entirely sympathetic with the throne? Is that the idea in it?

SMcC Yes, I think so. What now engages us involves a realm of spirituality, where Deity is seen in such majesty in relation to the great thought of divine supremacy that the throne brings in. It necessitates not only faith, but also spirituality.

AJG Why does it say that the four living creatures are in the midst of the throne, as well as around it?

SMcC It is a striking reference. The elders, as you notice, are round the throne in verse 4, but the living creatures are in the midst of the throne. As I understand it, they represent, from our side, what forms an integral part of the throne in its operations. The living creatures would allude to how the throne operates on the earthly side, because they would represent the earthly or creative side. What would you say yourself?

AJG I think that helps. I wondered if it showed how thoroughly identified with the throne the Lord would have the saints at the present time.

SMcC That is what was in one’s mind in referring to it.

AJG It is remarkable that later on, one of the four living creatures gives to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the fury of God. It is very striking how completely God would bring living creatures, in the saints, into sympathy even with His fury.

SMcC Just so. It is very interesting to see that while on the one hand we have angelic service strongly represented in this book, this matter of the living creatures in the midst of the throne shows how we come into it and are bound up with the meeting of evil by divine supremacy. I think that is the great thought. We shall see it more this afternoon, in the catching up of the man-child; that it is that which leads to the casting of Satan out of the expanse.

PHH I would like to ask a little more on the matter of ‘becoming in the Spirit.’ We are accustomed to desiring the Spirit’s power, in services like teaching and preaching and His power in the service of God. Would you say a little more about becoming in Spirit in view of our being in heaven, or taking this heavenly view?

SMcC I think it is very important, because I am sure you feel, as well as I do, that the more we go on, the more we are impressed with the need of the Spirit at every turn. And in these meetings, and other meetings, you feel that if you do not have the Spirit constantly supporting and being made room for, we shall never get anywhere. In this matter of the throne and divine majesty in the expanse as viewed here, we need the Spirit to understand what is referred to here in all the imagery that is employed to convey divine thoughts.

PHH John seems to be immediately more or less at home in the midst of it all. He is not asking questions, but seems able to absorb these figures and what they mean.

SMcC That is very striking. John is not falling on his face here as he did in the beginning of the book when the Lord appeared. It says there in chapter 1, “And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead.” But there is none of that here; there is no falling before the throne as dead here. As becoming in the Spirit, John is in keeping with the whole scene of majesty, and the elders too. Not only is the one sitting on the throne in the heavens, but there are the twenty-four elders sitting, clothed with white garments.

APCL Would the matter of becoming in the Spirit be in one sense our side to 2 Corinthians 12. Paul’s experience as a man in Christ, caught up as far as, or to the third heaven? Would that be our right, whereas this, becoming in the Spirit, would be the way in which we put ourselves in the way of that?

SMcC I think so. I do not know that we can say too much about it, at least speaking for oneself, but the only way that we can arrive at abstraction, is by this way; it is very affecting to think that the Spirit is so near and so available. John does not call upon the Spirit here, and the Spirit does not make any movement of Himself towards John; as it is recorded here. It says, “Immediately I became in the Spirit,” as if the Spirit was waiting and available for him in regard to this move.

APCL It is as the result of an invitation, whereas 2 Corinthians 12 is like a sovereign matter, is it not - “caught up”? Here there is an invitation and something required on John’s part to put himself into the way of accepting it.

SMcC Well, I thought these meetings, and what we are considering, might be something like that. It is like an invitation to “Come up here.” I believe heaven is entering into such meetings as these to invite us up there; I mean spiritually. Actually, of course, we shall go at the rapture, but spiritually we are to be drawn into this native air, in which faith lives and breathes, so that we might, as being at home in it, understand the greatness of the operations that are in mind.

GEE Would becoming in Spirit in chapter 1 bear more on the moral side in view of its references to the seven assemblies; but now it is in relation to the whole range of divine government, as centred round the throne? Would that help on the line of sympathy, do you think?

SMcC Just so. He became in Spirit in chapter 1, and then he gets the view of the Lord as Son of Man in judicial habiliments, and then the whole matter of church failure is faced. But here, it is in view of the scene in which there is a fixed state of purity and stainlessness, as suggested in the glass sea like crystal.

JAW Would the reference to the elders in this chapter have some reflection on the exercise of eldership on the local assembly now?

SMcC I think it has. And we should note the fact that it is twenty-four elders, not twelve elders but twenty-four elders which, of course, immediately brings into the mind David’s system, and the operation of headship as seen in David, when the twenty-four courses were designed; all that would come into mind suggesting the distributed experience among the saints. If we look at it dispensationally it includes the Old Testament saints as well as the New. If we look at it morally and spiritually, it refers to the distributive side throughout the localities.

RGB Is there a judicial side to the service of the Spirit that is important? I wondered if the judicial activities of the Spirit entered in some sense into the ministry that accompanied the revival, in the exposing of the evil that is in the clerical system.

SMcC I think it is important that we should see the Spirit in this relation. In reading this passage this morning one was very much impressed with this view of the Spirit, “seven lamps of fire, burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.” The book opens with a view of the Lord Jesus whose eyes are “as a flame of fire; and his feet like fine brass, as burning in a furnace.” We can understand that readily in regard to the Son of Man into whose hands judgment is committed, but do we understand this judicial side in relation to the Spirit? I am sure there is something in what you suggest as to the early days of the revival. One has often thought of J.N.D. being like Samson, in Judges 15, tying the torches to the tails of the jackals and sending them into the standing corn, the standing shocks, and setting fire to them. It is like some of the articles that J.N.D. wrote, showing the great power of Nazariteship meeting orthodoxy, and the corruption of orthodoxy, as was manifest then.

CH Would not the Spirit help us into a better understanding of the attributes of God which really come into prominence by the way heaven has met the sin question?

SMcC I think he would, because we need to understand more and better what is consistent with God and all that He is, both in His attributes and in His nature. So that we have this sympathetic company that “cease not day and night saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.” I think the “seven lamps of fire, burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God,” would help us in our arrival at that and entrance upon it.

CH I was only thinking that the better understanding of the attributes of God would give greater substance to the eventual praise, because we know the God whose attributes they are.

SMcC That is it.

MPS Does the fact that there are a number of extended titles given to the Spirit in the scriptures connect with this thought of the seven Spirits of God?

SMcC Yes, I think, as has been pointed out before, it alludes to the fulness linked with the Spirit and His presence and the different ways in which He is referred to. It is fulness in relation to the judicial side here.

PHH Might I ask about the suggestion of completeness in this chapter? There is first of all what you are speaking of, the seven Spirits of God; then there are the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, and then the completing touch at the end about all that creation has had in view and is now arrived at. Would you say that in our being in the Spirit, or becoming in the Spirit, we may get away from the breakdown which has come in, in regard of man’s view of divine Persons, man’s view of the assembly, and so on, and be engaged with the completeness of what is in the divine mind and what is being arrived at?

SMcC I think it is important to see that from this chapter, especially after the whole history of the assembly has been gone over, we have this voice, “Come up here” and then, “Immediately I became in the Spirit.” It is really what you might call a spiritual door out of the ruin and confusion and dislocation; so that we see the Being who is above all the dislocation. We have the fixed thoughts linked with the unchanged and constant Being who is referred to here, the glass sea, for instance, like crystal. There is something in that that links with what we are referring to, for one thing you will have noticed in Mr. Darby’s writings and in his hymns is this great thought of the “glass sea, like crystal.” It suggests a condition of stainlessness, of abiding purity, what is unsullied and unalloyed, despite all that there may be on the lower level, and it is through the Spirit that we come into that. On the one hand, we see God in His majesty standing out, and on the other hand, all that is consistent with God and His majesty that surrounds the throne in keeping with it.

PHH In what sense do the four living creatures present themselves, and act, in regard of this scene? It says, “the first living creature like a lion, and the second living creature like a calf,” and so on. Do they present the line of the ways that God has used to arrive at His end?

SMcC I think so. I think they bring in, in keeping with the objective view of the throne and divine majesty, the subjective side in us. Thus as the throne works out in its operations, the thought of the lion and the calf and the face of a man and the flying eagle, represent certain conditions or features that are produced in the saints.

APCL And it says that they are “full of eyes,

before and behind,” and “round and within.” Does that indicate the necessity for constant vigilance, as being affected by divine majesty?

SMcC It does. The four references there are remarkable, “before and behind,” and then later down, “round and within,” showing how, as to ourselves where vigilance is needed, the thought is complete. There is no part lacking, you might say, or no part unprotected and unguarded, would you think?

APCL I thought that. But then so many people take refuge behind saying that they do not see things. Do you think this is how vision really is developed?

SMcC It is. It is not that they have got one eye or two eyes; it is striking how in the imagery it says “full of eyes” in verse 6 and in verse 8, I think that is where we are greatly tested.

PHH You said this bore upon the subjective exercises in the saints. Could you please add a little to that?

SMcC I think it does, because what leads to disaster in any of our spiritual histories is the lack of what is seen in the living creatures, that is, the attributes, of course, as suggested in them. For instance, we have the thought of power in the lion; well, that is a great feature. Then there is the thought of the firmness in the calf; and the face of a man suggests the thought of intelligence, and then the flying eagle brings in the thought of rapidity in movement and elevation in movement. All these are very important in regard to our state of soul, if we are to be preserved from disaster, would you think?

PHH Yes. I was wondering whether the remark about persons not seeing could be linked with the lion. It says elsewhere, “he turneth not aside for any.” That is, if there is truth in a matter, it becomes a principle to us; therefore the seeing of a thing is urgent. Would it be in that sense that the eyes, for instance, are to be contemplated as something parallel working in us? We see a principle, and then firmness comes in and so on.

SMcC I think so. And as you follow it through, you have the matter of firmness. That is, if firmness is not present we may be deflected. Then the thought of the face of a man involves that things are not done blindly, they are worked out intelligently; and then, in the reference “like a flying eagle,” we have the dignified, elevated, and rapid movements that are suggested in the eagle. You get in this book the thought, for instance, of a time when there shall be no more delay. It says in chapter 10: 6, when the strong angel comes in, “that there should be no longer delay.” It is the idea of the eagle, that things are to go through.

ECM Is that not confirmed in Ezekiel 1: 12 where it says, “And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go they went; they turned not when they went”?

SMcC Just so. “They turned not when they went.” We were noticing in Scandinavia in connection with the book of Deuteronomy and the teaching there, that in regard to the sentence of the judge, they were not to turn to the right nor to the left. In matters of judgment amongst us some might think if we could only take the middle road or turn a little bit, turn some way to the side; but there was to be no turning to the right or to the left.

LGB Is there any suggestion that what is objectively contemplated in Christ is now subjectively formed?

SMcC I think so, because I think these features were seen in Christ in the gospels. The reference would be, in these creatures, to what is now reproduced in the saints in answer to what was set out in Christ in the gospels.

LWT Is it interesting that there is an allusion to the Spirit in a judicial sense at Pentecost in the parted tongues as of fire? Is that in view of the subjective results in the saints?

SMcC I thought so.

CWO'LM Could you say a word, please, in relation to the fact that these living creatures ascribe peculiarly to the greatness of the Lord God Almighty; and it is when they do this that the elders fall down? They seem to give stimulus to the whole matter.

SMcC They do. It is interesting how they precede the elders in regard to that matter of ascribing glory to God; they say, “Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty.” The elders seem to come in, following that, as if the features of life working out in the saints make way for this great thought of the supremacy of Deity; and the elders are drawn into it, their crowns cast down before the throne. Whatever distinction we may have on the line of blessing or whatever we may have acquired in experience with God in His ways, all that now is a secondary matter. All is absorbed in the great supremacy of God, the elders coming in following the action of the living creatures.

AC Would you say that the meeting of evil and the intrusion of it in the assembly was met by Peter in Acts 5 and also in Acts 8? He said, “Why is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord?” I wondered whether or not the features of the living creatures were seen paramountly in Peter in that way; he would maintain holiness in the house of God.

SMcC We see it there. I think in regard to the four living creatures preceding the elders in this matter of the worship of God, it is very interesting, because there has been a good deal of difficulty amongst us in some parts as to the worship of God in His supremacy; and perhaps it is due to this kind of thing that is suggested here. What leads forward in this matter is not experience. In judgment and administration, experience would lead in the application of rule, but what leads forward in the service of God here is life in the saints, free from the trammels of creed or ritual; it is life working out as absorbed in the majesty of Deity as referred to here.

JM Is it not interesting to see that in the end of chapter 5, it says “the four living creatures said, Amen; and the elders fell down and did homage”? They can come in at the end, as well as give a lead at the beginning.

SMcC It is important to see the balance and the mutuality there are in these thoughts. And in relying perhaps on our experience we may be inclined to disparage life in the saints. Whereas in the light of Revelation 5, in connection with experience, we must be prepared to follow the lead of life in the saints and merge into this great matter that means so much to God, that He is worshipped for what He is in Himself in His unchanging Being.

LGB Is the link confirmed in the book of Nehemiah, where it says, “Thou quickenest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee,” Nehemiah 9: 6? The reference follows the thought of quickening, flowing from life.

SMcC That is, life leads in the matter.

APCL Is there a touch of intelligence in what they say in this living way? Chapter 1 it is “who is, and who was, and who is to come,” but here they bring to bear the matter as they see it, and they say “who was, and who is, and who is to come.”

SMcC That is very striking. You might have thought. Well, it would be the elders who would bring in that touch first, as to “who was,” because the “who was” brings in the historic side, and the elders have to do with the historic side, the side of experience. But the living creatures are not remiss in that, they say “who was,” which is the historic side, and then “who is,” that is the unchanging, abiding, constant Being of God.

LWT They have eyes behind as well as before. Does that link with the view of the historic side?

SMcC It does. And “who is to come” would link with the eyes “before.”

WF Would you say why the feature of prostration is so strong throughout the whole book of the Revelation?

SMcC I do not think that we are to be afraid of this matter of prostration, because we are the creature, and Deity is Deity, God is God. While we are introduced into the most infinite blessedness in family relationship to God, we are to see that prostration is always befitting when it comes to divine majesty.

Now chapter 10 is a reference as we know to Christ in the figure that is before us; and it is interesting how He is viewed as coming down out of the heaven; that is, we have to remember that in these sections, evil’s challenge is being met, and He comes “down out of the heaven, clothed with a cloud, and the rainbow upon his head” - notice the rainbow in both the chapters that we have read - “and his countenance as the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire” - note the fire running through all the sections that we have read - “and having in his hand a little opened book.” Now the little opened book, as we understand it, refers to what is to work out as appropriated by us in affecting us inwardly, and that is an important matter.

PHH You are thinking now of appropriate feelings accompanying the ministry?

SMcC Yes, and involving a right sympathetic constitution in us in relation to God and what He is doing in completing the mystery of God, as it says in verse 7, “the mystery of God also shall be completed.” What is the mystery of God? This is not Christ and the assembly exactly, although that would come into it. The mystery of God is just what we have been referring to, how evil has been allowed, permitted and tolerated, and all the challenge it has raised to God’s universal supremacy. The mystery of God is about to be completed, and the eating of the book would bring us inwardly into sympathetic accord with all that is involved in it.

APCL Once again we have this matter of direction in verse 8, “Go, take the little book which is opened in the hand of the angel, ... And I went.” Is that a similar suggestion to chapter 4?

SMcC It is. It is very striking how it says in verse 9, “And I went to the angel, saying to him to give me the little book.” That is, it is a question of how far we are prepared to go. We might think, Well, the angel was there, and the voice out of the heaven had referred to the book. Would not the angel hear it and would he not immediately give John the book? But that is not the point. How far are we prepared to go? John went to the angel, saying to him to give him the little book.

JB How far would verse 10 go? “And I took the little book out of the hand of the angel, and ate it up.”

SMcC I think it is to show the importance of the truth coming home to us, that we are not just hearing a lovely song or dwelling on great matters that hold us merely entranced in our minds as we go through the Scriptures. We are dealing with matters which the little opened book suggests that are to affect us inwardly. It is the truth working inwardly, bringing about bitterness; it is sweet first of all in the mouth, but there is bitterness in the belly, suggesting division between things as it enters and affects us inwardly.

JMcK It is all in view of a prophetic word. Is it not instructive that all this comes between the sounding of the sixth and the seventh trumpets? It is as though God would give a crowning word in prophecy whilst He delays the sounding of the seventh trumpet.

SMcC That is very interesting. One of the important features of the book of Revelation is that you get, interspersed at different intervals, certain companies and certain peoples that are secured before the judgment is completed. And so, this is one of them. In chapter 7 we have another; we have the company there that is secured before the judgments are completed. Then we get this chapter coming in, intervening, as you say, between the sixth and the seventh trumpets; and then in chapter 15 that we read there is another intervention.

ABP Is there a link between the book that we have here and the book in chapter 5? The book in chapter 5 was taken out of the right hand of Him that sat upon the throne, and there is the little book here. Is there some correspondence between the two?

SMcC There may be a link between them in a certain way in relation to the rights of God, but in regard to the book in chapter 5, there was only One that was able to take it. It has to do with the working out of the rights of God on the earth, and John wept when he saw that no one was able to take it. But there was One that was able to take it. With the little opened book, it is little and it is opened; which gives some indication as to it.

WGJ Would the inward result of eating the little book be in response to seeing the One with the rainbow upon his head, linking on with the waters of judgment that had come in in Noah’s time? I was thinking of the way you were talking of learning to separate, and divide between things. God had come in in judgment. He had tolerated the evil that there was in men, and then He comes in in the waters of judgment and sets His bow in the heavens afterwards.

SMcC So that all these figures such as “clothed with a cloud,” and “the rainbow upon his head,”

and “his feet as pillars of fire,” would all have a reflexive force on John, as contemplating it and taking this little book.

GE Would there be some link with this matter of division in the word in Hebrews 4 as to the word of God, and its penetrating character, reaching down to the inwards?

SMcC I think there is. It is a bitter matter, when the truth or when the word of God gets into the inward parts. But it is very essential if there is to be effectual ministry in bringing in the mind of God.

APCL Is it not remarkable, too, that he was told that that is what would happen. It is not that God presents things to us and then we find them bitter, but does He not present them in that bearing and, as we are obedient, we find that it is exactly as He says?

SMcC Just so. We are challenged therefore, as to whether we are prepared to go that way and to take the little book or whether we are taking the way of least resistance. That is, getting through the best way we can, without being searched too much inwardly, without being challenged too much inwardly. The more we have to do with the truth, the more we are challenged as it comes in to the inward parts.

RGB Is it very affecting that it says in verse 7, “as he has made known the glad tidings to his own bondmen the prophets,” as if there are those that God has that are fully sympathetic and completely available to Him? Would it challenge us as to whether we are numbered among them?

SMcC Yes, it would. “His own bondmen” is a very affecting reference in this sense.

ACSP In the “little opened book” is there some suggestion that while we are in the presence of matters so great, there is what is being brought within our range to help us?

SMcC That is it. It is not beyond us, it is ‘little.’ It stands over against the pretentiousness of man and all that links with what is coming in in chapter 13, where we have the man of sin, setting himself up in the temple and saying that he is God. The little book stands over against all that.