DISTINCTIVENESS AND FINALITY IN PAUL'S MINISTRY (5)

DISTINCTIVENESS AND FINALITY IN PAUL’S MINISTRY (5)

Ephesians 5: 25 - 32; Philippians 3: 20, 21; 1 Thessalonians 4: 15 - 18

SMcC The thought this morning is to consider in Ephesians the marital setting involving the relations of Christ to the assembly, and perhaps this afternoon, if the Lord will and we should live, the earlier part of the epistle in relation to the marvellous richness of the family section. The passages in Philippians and in Thessalonians were suggested to be read because of the thought of finality in them. We have the thought of what is distinctive and final in all these passages and we are to notice how much ‘Himself,’ Christ Himself, is before us in these passages. According to the passage in Ephesians He is going to present the assembly to Himself glorious; it is not exactly to the Father, or to the Spirit, or to God as such, but to Himself. In Philippians we have “according to the working of the power which he has even to subdue all things to himself,” which is a remarkable reference, and then in Thessalonians it says, “the Lord himself, ... shall descend.” That is a very fine statement. It does not say the Lord Himself shall ‘come,’ or the Lord Himself shall ‘come down,’ the very word ‘descend’ brings a touch of majesty into that all-transcendent moment for us, for, at the rapture, as these passages involve, we shall enter upon final conditions. In this passage in Ephesians 5, we see the distinctive place that the assembly has, as drawn attention to in Paul’s service and ministry, as the object of the constant and active love of Christ. He has delivered Himself up for it, as it says, “Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it, in order that he might sanctify it, purifying it by the washing of water by the word, that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things; but that it might be holy and blameless,” chapter 5: 25 - 27. In view of the imminence of the translation, we perhaps can sympathetically enter into the Lord’s feelings in this relation, and especially the present moment in His service. His great preventative service, in view of the presentation of the assembly to Himself glorious.

PHH Did you say ‘preventative service’? Would you mind saying another word about that?

SMcC It says, “that he might present the assembly to himself glorious, having no spot, or wrinkle, or any of such things.” The service of the Lord in regard to the assembly goes on in the light of what it is in purpose and counsel, so that none of these things might be upon it as affecting the personnel. It says in verse 25, “Christ also loved the assembly,” that is the assembly in purpose and counsel, that marvellous conception of God’s. Then it goes on, “and has delivered himself up for it, in order that he might sanctify it, purifying it”; we now come down to history, and the great thought of the cross and the moral question, but all having in mind that the assembly should be presented as it is, to Himself, in the light of purpose and counsel, glorious.

ABP Were there certain features, specially in women in the gospels, which brought this matter of loving the assembly into what was concrete, also in the sense of the matter being represented before Him?

SMcC I think there were. A number could be referred to, but tell us what you were particularly thinking of.

ABP Loving the assembly must of course be as you have said, in relation to the whole assembly in the divine thoughts, but I was thinking of His feelings in manhood being drawn out in relation to certain whom He could speak to as “Woman.” I wondered if there was in that the tangible expression which drew out His love for the assembly.

SMcC You mean that they would come into His mind in such feminine quality that they would project on to His view the assembly. In a concrete way, the assembly comes in as the Spirit comes in, but it would bear on the quality of it, in persons. Is that what you have in mind?

ABP Yes, and especially I had in mind the widow who gave all. It seems like a fitting expression of the counterpart of Him who was about to give all.

SMcC Exactly. And you might also allude to the woman in Luke 7, and also to Mary as in John 20. They would all suggest some feature of the assembly.

AH Why do you think this remarkable passage is prefaced by the word to husbands, and the great stress laid on “your own wives,” and “his own wife” and then “let each so love his own wife”?

SMcC It is striking that there is no exhortation, as far as I recall, in these sections for the wives to love the husbands. There are the references to subjection on the part of the wife to the husband, but there is a special appeal as to the husbands to love their wives. I think perhaps it indicates a certain weakness on the side of the husband, the side of the man, as we think of ourselves, standing over against Christ.

HB Has this exhortation in view something of the concrete thought as presented amongst the saints that has been referred to?

SMcC Yes, it has. The Lord of course had it at the beginning of the dispensation in a concrete way as seen in the Acts, and specially when we come to Paul’s ministry, what was secured at Ephesus definitely brings it on to view in a concrete way. But then, in the revival, after the departure, it comes on to His view in a concrete way in such a state as is before us in Philadelphia. There is something very concrete in Philadelphia, in the revived state of things that speaks to the Lord of the assembly. So that when He says “I will cause that they ... shall know that I have loved thee,” He is not thinking of a remnant, He is not thinking of a few, He is thinking of the assembly as it comes on to His view in a very concrete way, in a revived state of things.

AJG Do you think that the apostle’s soul is so filled with the light of Christ and the assembly that though he is dealing with the hortatory part of the epistle, yet he cannot help, so to speak, enlarging on this great matter of the love of Christ for the assembly in connection with His exhortation as to the husbands?

SMcC Yes, it would almost seem as if he enlarges on a subject that really does not fit into this part of the epistle. We would have understood it in the earlier part better, as we might humanly speak, but it just seems as if the occasion opens up for him to enlarge on it. That is the great thing about ministry, do you not think, that we must make room for what the Spirit would fill out in our minds, even supposing it is not just the subject that is before us?

AJG Yes, I am sure that is important.

JSE Would it be right to link this part of the exhortation with the verse which exhorts us to be filled with the Spirit? It is not very far ahead of this, is it? I am thinking of the word “be not drunk with wine, in which is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit,” and then this marital matter is immediately brought forward. Would it in any way suggest to us that ability to lay hold of this exhortation, and to drink into the wealth of the mystery, great as it is, is largely dependent on our capacity in relation to the Spirit?

SMcC Yes, I am sure it is, because there can be no arrival at the thought of union apart from the Spirit. In order to enjoy the blessedness of union with Christ, which this letter contemplates, there must be the making room for the Spirit. The Spirit is the bond between us and the heavenly Christ; how could there be union with Him otherwise?

AW Is that typified in the servant in relation to Rebecca in Genesis 24?

SMcC Yes, the Spirit has a great place in the type in that chapter, in the linking on of Rebecca with Isaac.

AEM Would that bear on our marriage meetings? If you bring Paul in, he is always speaking about Christ and the assembly.

SMcC I think that is important. You feel that our marriage meetings should become occasions for enlargement of the truth in regard to Christ and the assembly. So that while primarily, in our so-called marriage meetings, we are gathered in expression of fellowship with a brother and a sister, just like this matter of husbands love your own wives, the Spirit of God would help us to turn from what is merely natural, and what is linked with their natural circumstances, to expand into the fulness linked with Christ and the assembly. Therefore, you would expect ministry on marriage occasions, although sometimes it is said that there should be much more prayer and the like, but I think the marriage occasions become occasions for the Spirit to help us in regard to Christ and the assembly.

PL So that the marriage feast in John 2 became the occasion for the manifestation of Christ’s glory.

SMcC So that if you had a dozen prayers at a marriage meeting and only a short word as to Christ and the assembly, everything is overshadowing Christ and the assembly, in your concentration on the brother and the sister. We are not there to wholly concentrate our attention on the brother and the sister, on what the sister is wearing, and what the brother is wearing. We are not there to be occupied with that; we are there in support and sympathy with them in the new path they are entering upon, but it is to make room for some service of the Spirit in enlarging our thoughts in regard to Christ and the assembly. Do you think that is right. Mr. M.?

AEM Yes I do, I am being distressed about several occasions. There has been much prayer and much singing of hymns, and I do not see that you have any right to call the assembly together unless for ministry. If we want to pray about it, there is the prayer meeting, and we can pray at home; but the bringing of the saints together, should be in view of ministry, because only ministry can elevate it to its proper level.

SMcC I think it is important to see that, because, as you recall, we have been helped as to ‘farewell meetings.’ When a brother or sister was going away from a locality, or a brother was going out in a circuit in his service, there used to be a ‘farewell meeting,’ but beloved J.T. pointed out that it was not right to call the assembly together in relation to a man, a brother or a sister, in that sense. The same thing in principle has to be noticed in connection with marriage meetings, that while we gather and are in sympathy and support with the brother and sister in the new path they are entering upon, the paramount thing in our minds is to make way for ministry that would bear on the occasion.

ABP Is it not important that the principals in the marriage should be exercised that some feature of Christ and the assembly is practically expressed in them?

SMcC I am sure we should see the importance of that, especially in this day of divorce, and separation, and so much being said about ‘incompatibility.’ We should not countenance that kind of thing. Divorce may be necessary where the marital bond is broken through unfaithfulness, as the Lord indicates, but marriage and the relations of husband and wife should be elevated to the dignity that attaches to it in the divine institution primarily, not only as ordained of God, but also in this dispensation, in the light of Christ and the assembly.

JSE Could I ask a question about John’s gospel whilst you are on this? As we are reading Ephesians 5, with all the elevation connected with it, is it not striking that none of the synoptic writers refers to this marriage in Cana of Galilee? John, who writes long after Paul’s ministry is completed, brings it forward; and is it not he who brings forward the noun ‘woman’ most, in the gospels? Is there any suggestion in that, do you think?

SMcC Yes, I think there is, specially as bearing on the last days, when the enemy has done his best, and is doing his best, to corrupt the thought of the assembly.

JBP Is there a tendency for Egyptian principles to come in in these marriage occasions, such as young people demonstrating at the station when the couple go away?

SMcC It is a matter of universal concern as to the principles of the world entering into our marriages and in the things that take place. I think the heavenly elevation in which Christ and the assembly is presented in Ephesians would help to prevent us sinking to the level of the world in the way our marriages are carried on. People of course say, ‘Oh well, it is only one day in their life, let them have all that they want,’ but that is a poor way to think and to speak. We have been delivered from the world in everything, and therefore let this matter of marriage be elevated to the dignity that attaches to it in the light of the heavenly position of Christ and the assembly.

ECM Does the ‘washing’ have any bearing on that matter?

SMcC “The washing of water by the word,” would all have in mind the maintenance of our heavenly relations in a proper way, in the dignity that is fitted to them.

RWS The ‘word’ in verse 27 might bear upon the ministry of the word at the so-called marriage meetings.

SMcC Yes, it would. That is what we are referring to. While the brother and sister may desire the fellowship of the brethren, the real thought of the marriage meeting is an occasion for the word to come in. This would have a purifying process in relation to all these matters, and the adoption of worldly methods and principles. That is, we should not carry on our marriages as the world carries them on.

ECM Do you think the word in John 13, where the Lord says, “Unless I wash thee, thou hast not part with me” (verse 8) would connect in any way with the washing here?

SMcC I think the washing of water by the word not only bears on our marriage meetings, but on many things. I think the word last night was like a service of Christ, helping us in regard to separation from matters of associations such as directorships, and brethren who are involved in unequal yokes, holding shares with ungodly men in ungodly companies. The thing is not right. It should be looked into and where matters are clear, and surely they should be clear as to the unequal yokes, they should be dealt with. Other matters that are not so clear, we may get help as to them as we ponder over them, as our brother was suggesting last night and as we seek to help one another. But these matters where there is direct unequal yoke involved, the question would be how long are we going to wait? How long are we going to go on? I heard the other day of a part of the world where this matter came up, that the brother said, ‘We are waiting to see what they will do in London.’ With all due respect for London, and the beloved brethren whom we honour, and our place among them; it is not a case of London, nor New York, nor Detroit, nor Sydney. It is a question of heaven, what heaven is doing and what heaven is saying through the presence of the Spirit in the assembly.

LES In the end of Nehemiah, linking on with what our beloved brother referred to last night and what you are speaking of now, it says in chapter 13: 29, “Remember them, my God, for they are polluters of the priesthood, and of the covenant of the priesthood, and of the Levites!”

SMcC It would affect the service of God, and as J.T. often used to say, when the matter of trade unions was so strongly before us, and there was the attempt to bring in other things, ‘Let us deal with one thing at a time,’ Surely we should all be clear about this matter of directorships, and unequal yokes in shares with ungodly men in a company! The Scriptures are very plain; there is no abstruseness, no cloudiness in the Scriptures as to that. These matters should be faced in our localities, where persons are involved.

JOS Would these be like “spots in your love-feasts,” Jude 12?

SMcC Just so. And I think it is incumbent on those who are leading amongst the saints, whoever it may be, to set these matters on. Especially is it important that those of us who minister should be free from spot, free from any entanglement, which might lead to the ministry being blamed.

PL Would the spotlessness of the garments of the Lord in the transfiguration, in Mark’s gospel, be a pattern for us? Would that particularly apply to those seeking to serve, Mark being a servant’s gospel?

SMcC It is very striking how that comes out in the great servant’s gospel.

JSE Are we not learning to give more credit to those in the locality, when they are called upon to face this matter, so that we pray for them that they might carry it through according to God, in view of this principle of a clean place?

SMcC I am sure we should. There is a great need that we should pray about these matters, and also that where there is failure to act in relation to them that attention should be called to the light that governs these matters.

PHH Do you think the mention of the glass sea in Revelation 15 and the persons standing there having harps of God, emphasises the purity, necessary in the persons, as gaining the victory over the beast and so on, and thus having a full part in the service of God?

SMcC It does. There is a suggestion of abiding stainlessness in these references in the book of the Revelation. It is a remarkable thing that, where the power is so great and where we get the fulness of evil developed, we have got these suggestions of constant and abiding stainlessness; and the saints standing related to it.

JM In Revelation 19 it says, “his wife has made herself ready” (verse 7). Would that involve that she has come into the intelligence of His mind and knows how to make herself ready, so as to be in accordance with His own affections?

SMcC Yes, I think we should see the standard the Lord has in mind, and that is what this chapter would help us in, so that the assembly might be “holy and blameless.” Is there anything about us that blame could be laid to? That is the point. Is there any impurity? Is there any unholiness? The Lord is constantly serving, through these and other meetings, that this condition and state might be arrived at in the assembly.

GRC Is it not therefore important that when discipline has to be applied, that we should be marked by right feelings? Paul wrote the first epistle to the Corinthians with many tears. So that while the prison has to come into use, there should be tears on the part of the brethren, otherwise we are blameworthy as to that.

SMcC I was thinking, when you were speaking last night, of the remarkable way in which the reference to what you were saying comes into Corinthians. In Galatians you have no suggestion of the feelings that you have in Corinthians, because Paul is dealing there with another kind of evil, another kind of wickedness, and he is distraught. Paul is terse and somewhat distraught in Galatians, but in Corinthians, where he is dealing with these matters of wickedness and unholy associations, he is filled with holy feelings about the whole matter. And I am sure we should be.

AHn I wondered if you would enlarge a little on the distinction between the discipline of Galatians, if I might speak of it thus, and that of Corinthians, I think beloved J.T. emphasised that the sin of Galatia was far more serious than that of Corinthians, so that Paul, in Galatians 5: 12, says, “I would that they would even cut themselves off who throw you into confusion.”

SMcC It is very striking that there is no suggestion of withdrawal in the epistle to the Galatians. He does not say to withdraw from these persons in Galatia. He meets the thing head-on in Peter, beloved servant that Peter was, for he was under the influence of another. Peter was under the influence of James, and wrongly influenced, and Paul meets it head-on, face to face with Peter. Then in regard to the false teachers, he would that they would cut themselves off, a remarkable statement; whereas in Corinthians, he exhorts them to “remove the wicked person from amongst yourselves.”

GRC Is not Corinthians the seduction of the world, but the evil in Galatians is heresy; and you cannot have anything to do with that?

SMcC That is right. It is the operations of self-opinionated men who are determined to force their views on the saints, and hold to them come what may.

ABP So was not the case of the incestuous man at Corinth a clear case on which they could not go wrong, which Paul brought before them to adjust them in their minds to what was judicial; and does his word at the end of the epistle show that there were worse conditions there, that he had in mind that they should arrive at?

SMcC Yes, there were. It brings out the skill of the apostle that instead of putting all things together, he brings one thing before them and exhorts them to deal with that.

ABP I thought that was what you had in mind when you spoke of clear cases.

SMcC That is what I have in mind. We cannot lump everything together and say, ‘Well, we must wait till everything is clear.’ Let us deal with what is clear. If a thing is clear, a link between an unbeliever and a believer, well, let us meet that. Do not let us bring in something else at the moment that may not be clear, over against that, to hinder the dealing with the other.

SWP In the end of Zechariah it says, “in that day there shall be no more a Canaanite in the house of Jehovah of hosts.” If we are not clear about this matter of associations, will we not be in danger of bringing one in?

SMcC I am sure we are. Our brother was alluding to it in the passage we read in Numbers last night. It is a question of defiling the sanctuary, defiling the tabernacle of Jehovah. It is not only a question of the saints being defiled, severally, but it is a question of the sanctuary and the tabernacle being defiled.

APCL Is that what is in view in the word ‘it’ being used in this passage? While the persons are the subject of the operations, it is the assembly that is in mind in the operations.

SMcC I think it is very helpful at this juncture to see the ‘it,’ the neuter thought that is used here, because it is the substantial quality linked with the assembly in this light, as it is in Christ’s mind, that is in view.

MHT In the various references by John in the address to Sardis, spoken both to the angel and to the overcomer, there is a reference to garments, and there is also the reference to things not being complete. Does not this question of our associations link up with the need for reaching finality and completion?

SMcC I think there is something important for us in that, that matters should be brought to completion in all our localities wherever they are. You remember how Isaiah refers in chapter 37 to “Therefore lift up a prayer for the remnant that is left” (verse 4). But he says, just preceding that, (verse 3), “And they said to him, Thus says Hezekiah: This day is a day of trouble, and of rebuke, and of reviling; for the children are come to the birth, and there is not strength to bring forth,” That is what I was thinking about. It is a great matter, in our localities, that there should not only be the children coming to birth, but that there should be the strength to bring forth; as you say, it involves moral power and strength to complete matters in view of the translation.

CMM In regard to this matter of directorships and holding shares; I take it you would have no difficulty about those who are walking with us, as together perhaps forming a small private company, provided all those who are in it are fully walking with us?

SMcC Oh, not at all, there is no unequal yoke involved in that. What we are referring to, which we must keep clear, is what involves an unequal yoke. What involves light and darkness and righteousness and lawlessness.

JGM How far do you carry the thought of the unbeliever?

SMcC You have got to get hold of the principle. Elsewhere Paul refers, for instance, to marriage as “in the Lord,” and again, “what part for a believer along with an unbeliever?” there is a principle involved in that. And that may enter into even our near relations like Lot, for they may be lawless persons and in unholy associations.

GRC And may we put a wrong interpretation on the word ‘believer’?

SMcC Yes, I think we may think of it as if it covers every Christian that makes a profession. Is that what you have in mind?

GRC I would have thought a believer is a person in active faith, and governed by faith, and in the obedience of faith.

SMcC That is what I am thinking about, and that was why I referred to the expression in 1 Corinthians 7, “in the Lord.” That implies an active state of subjection and obedience to the truth.

ABP Is not believing defined in John’s gospel, as bearing on our day?

SMcC Yes, it is. John would make believers out of unbelievers. He stresses this thought of believing very much.

AEM Would you say a word about eating with people withdrawn from, even if they are our natural relations? I find that some exclude natural relations from such.

SMcC On what basis would they exclude them?

AEM I do not know on what basis, but they do. They say it does not apply to natural relations, such as a son or daughter.

SMcC Supposing we read a passage: Matthew 10: 34 - 38, “Do not think that I have come to send peace upon the earth: I have not come to send peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man at variance with his father, and the daughter with her mother, and the daughter-in-law with her mother-in-law; and they of his household shall be a man’s enemies. He who loves father or mother above me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter above me is not worthy of me. And he who does not take up his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me.” Does not that govern the matter of natural relations in these matters, as well as other matters?

AEM I think so, but take young people that come into fellowship and after a while they go out; can you eat with them, if they are in your house?

SMcC No, I would not. I would set their meals for them apart. If it is a younger one that has to be cared for, there may be consideration, but even in that there would be modification as to what is involved. Definitely if they have attained to certain years of life, and are withdrawn from, we must be firm and faithful in regard to that matter.

TJG If they have come into fellowship, and have gone out, have they not shown a definite sense of responsibility or irresponsibility?

SMcC I would say so. J.N.D. does make a modifying note in regard to tender years, and young ones, which we would consider. But when they have come to the stage where they understood, and are definitely willed and minded to go that way, I should think they should be taken account of in that light.

Ques If parents in fellowship do not set the meals apart for a person in the family who has been withdrawn from, does that involve a breach of fellowship?

SMcC Well, when you say ‘a breach of fellow-ship,’ it depends what you mean. Certainly they are compromising the fellowship, for it involves a link that is defiling, and it may defile others in that sense.

HJS Does not all this confirm what was said earlier about the need of care in receiving young persons, that they should have some sense of responsibility?

SMcC It does. But then it is not only with young people that this matter comes up; it comes up with older people, and older relations, where there is a breakdown in faithfulness with regard to the truth, where sons may eat with fathers that are withdrawn from and daughters may eat with fathers that are withdrawn from. It may even be persons that are apart from the house who may be only in-laws come and eat with those withdrawn from. The thing is not right; it is not according to the truth.

APCL In the passage you read in Matthew there is no reference to husbands and wives.

SMcC A wife or a husband seems to be the only exception, in the Scriptures, in that relation.

AHn In 2 Corinthians 6, which we so often refer to, we have the words ‘participation’ and ‘fellowship.’ “What participation is there between righteousness and lawlessness? or what fellowship of light with darkness?” Do you think that would help us, if we reflected upon that?

SMcC It would. I am sure that those persons that eat with those that are withdrawn from have got no real affection for the persons as they should have. If they had real genuine care and affection for the persons, they would be faithful to the Lord and faithful to the truth. Alas, there are many that are far more ready to offend the Lord than they are to offend the persons involved.

ANW Is not the word “touch not” in 2 Corinthians 6 very strong? “Touch not what is unclean.”

SMcC It is very strong in that sense, touching means that any contact would involve defilement.

GRC Would you mind clarifying something that was said yesterday about those in the Open fellowship? There are those in Great Britain who have the idea in their minds that everybody in the Open fellowship should be treated as though they had been individually withdrawn from by us, even though they may be young persons who do not know their right hand from their left.

SMcC I think if we carefully read J.N.D.’s letters when the thing was at its height, we would see that he makes a difference between those that lead and those that are misled. Therefore, we have to exercise discernment. Where persons are confirmed in that evil system and are propagating it there could be no social intercourse at all with such. But where young persons may come along, and are seeking their way and interested in the truth, you would like to help such if you can.

GRC And further, even if they have not got to that point, if they are just, as we might say, simple ones who have known nothing different, there would be no justification for treating them as though we had withdrawn from them, would there? We would take care, in our association with them, and seek to help them. We would not seek association with them, we would not treat them as though they were under discipline.

SMcC You would bear in mind their links with the system that we have definitely judged to be evil and can have no contact with. But if they come along to the fellowship meetings, and are under the truth, you would not ask them to go outside when it comes to the fellowship tea, I mean, you would accept them on the basis on which they are found until they are proved otherwise, as Jehovah said in Jeremiah, “Let them return unto thee; but return not thou unto them,” chapter 15: 19.

SG What would you say in relation to a circumstance where two persons, one of whom is in fellowship with us and the other person is possibly a natural sister or an aunt and they live in the same household, and the sister in fellowship with us desires to have her brethren along to the house, and there is the possibility of the other party being there? What would you say as to that circumstance?

SMcC I would say that the brethren have enough wisdom to meet all these matters, or they should have. We cannot go into all the details in these meetings, but I should credit the brethren with having wisdom to meet these situations as they arise.

WHW Would the first two verses of Ephesians 5 govern us in regard to what you are saying as to the practical circumstances? “Be ye therefore imitators of God, as beloved children, and walk in love, even as the Christ loved us, and delivered himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour.” I wondered whether we should not be thinking on the line of something for God flowing out of these circumstances.

SMcC That passage has that clearly in mind, in the offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour. But here in the end of Ephesians 5 we are being impressed with the fact that He might present the assembly to Himself, that is Christ. It is a question of what the assembly is to Christ, glorious, as it says, and that it might be holy and blameless. The Lord is constantly engaged in His service, and it is charged with the greatest love and the greatest affection and He is constantly operating towards this great objective.

JSE You said in an earlier reading, in speaking of Paul’s distinctive place in the ministry, that there were certain things the like of which could not be found anywhere else. Do these three passages that we have read stand in that category?

SMcC They do. Of what other family could we say the things that are found here in Ephesians 5? These statements are exclusive to the assembly, bringing out her priceless value in the eyes of Christ. So it says (verse 29), “For no one has ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as also the Christ the assembly.” That is, it is not just a question of the application of mere arbitrary principles, but behind all the light that the Lord gives us as to principles, is this nourishing and cherishing of the assembly; nourishing and cherishing His own flesh, as we might say.

JSE Is it safe to say, in view of the exalted view of the assembly here, that while types help us in certain directions, there is no type that could fully present this?

SMcC There is not. Because even while we might go back to Genesis 2, it does not rise to what we have here. I mean in the sense that here the moral question has been resolved; so that it says, “but that it might be holy and blameless.” That could not be introduced into Genesis 2.

WH Does the assembly therefore secure an added lustre through the facing of these moral questions and exercises, that are not seen in Genesis 2?

SMcC That is the point, and how wonderful it must be to God, that not only has the moral question been solved in Christ, not only has there been the solution to the tree of good and evil at the cross, but now there is a vessel, perfectly in accord with that, for it is holy and blameless. What a lustre attaches to this vessel in that light!

AJG Does the allusion to “the word” here,

“the washing of water by the word,” involve bringing home to the affections and intelligence of the saints the full import of the death of Christ on the one hand, and the full grandeur of divine thoughts and the desires of Christ in regard of the assembly, on the other hand?

SMcC It does, it is a remarkable combination in that way.

WBH Does the assembly concretely here emerge from the testimonial sphere in this passage, in perfect correspondence to the altogether loveliness of the Man of the gospels?

SMcC It is the fruit of the service of Christ. As a result of that wonderful service throughout the dispensation, and especially now, the assembly will emerge from the testimonial sphere without a spot or a wrinkle or any such thing; she will be holy and blameless.

WC Is the standard here the one pearl of great value?

SMcC Just so. That was in His mind, “Christ also loved the assembly.” He had the pearl in His mind in the gospels, but the epistles are to bring before us how the saints are brought into complete accord with what was in the divine mind in the gospels.

WC And if He sold all that He had to possess it, we ought not to be unready to part with something, or everything, do you think?

SMcC That is a good point to bring in, I am sure, because it is humbling at times how, like the young man in the gospels, money, property and possessions weigh with us, when it comes to the working out of principles.

AWGT Is that why the Lord is said, according to the parable in Matthew 13, to have gone and sold all that He had? There was a transaction in it?

SMcC Just so.

JH You have referred to the distinctiveness of Christ in these passages, seen in the word “himself.” Does this enter into the distinctiveness of the assembly? In Revelation 19 it is, the Lamb’s wife has “made herself ready,” and in Revelation 21 she is seen by herself, as it were.

SMcC Just so. Distinctiveness comes in here too, in the word ‘it.’ That is, union involves the link between two persons. It merges into the oneness that is referred to, but you have got two persons, you see. Union is not organic; it does not stand, as it were, between the body and the Head, although it is closely allied with that. It is two persons, one who is brought to the Other, just as the woman was brought to the man, and just as in Ephesians 2 we are brought to Christ where He is. You have got two personalities brought together.

JH So in the light of that the incentive would be as to what we can give up, not what we can retain. Paul even apparently changed his calling so as to be freer for the assembly.

SMcC Just so. And what affects you so much is that this whole chapter is so charged with these final touches of the service of Christ with His love and affection. It says, “no one has ever hated his own flesh”; I mean, sometimes it is suggested that hatred enters into these matters, but it is expressly said here, “no one has ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, even as also the Christ the assembly: for we are members of his body; we are of his flesh, and of his bones.”

WSS Do we need to see that the final thought is the Lord’s joy in the presentation of the assembly to Himself?

SMcC Just so. And I think in passing over to Philippians in regard to this matter, that perhaps a word is apropos in regard to universal conditions, in a prevailing sin, which is linked with the modern world, and that is like a plague in different parts. I am sure that while the grace of the dispensation is so wonderful and is able to meet us in regard to such things, it is important that we should see the terribleness of that character of sin, fornication and adultery, and the awful bearing of it in the enemy’s hand in relation to the assembly, he attacking the chastity and purity of the assembly through it.

JM Is it striking in that way, how Paul constantly brings reference to those sins into his epistles? Do you think that he is thinking of the assembly and what it is for Christ, and how that sin particularly militates against it?

SMcC Yes. And I am afraid of the danger of lightness in regarding that sin. It is a sin distinctive from other sins, in that it involves what is against the organism, the body of Christ.

CH The apostle, in Corinthians has that in his mind when he referred to the Corinthians, and his concern to present them a chaste virgin to Christ - not just a virgin, but a chaste virgin.

SMcC Exactly. I am sure he had in mind what was prevalent among them in that sense.

CH I wondered whether he was not governed by the light that we have been speaking about in approaching a very difficult situation. I was thinking of the reference we have had to the way things are done. Do you not think it is important to have a right motive in the way things are done?

SMcC I am sure that is very important. In matters that are taken up in our localities, it is not because of bad personal feelings towards persons; we will never be supported on that line. It may be there is someone that I am not getting on well with, and I am glad for an opportunity to bring something up. That will never do, we shall never have divine support on those lines. We should have this high elevated level before us, that we are considering.

CH And the effect on the company is not just that they should prove themselves right, but that they should prove themselves pure? That is the word in 2 Corinthians 7, I believe.

SMcC I think what you say is very important. We do not want just to get a reputation for dealing with a matter. I mean, you might get some localities that might say, ‘Well, we were the first to deal with this thing.’ ‘We have dealt with these things all through the years.’ There is not much in that in itself.

CH And purity relates to holiness, does it not?

SMcC It does.

JK In Malachi we have, “Take heed then to your spirit, ... (for I hate putting away),” chapter 2: 15. The feelings of God enter into the matter, do they not?

SMcC Very good. Ephesians 5 is charged with the feelings of Christ, and our feelings are to be effective in all these matters. Now a word as to Philippians. It says, “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation,” not our bodies of humiliation, but “our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory.” There is nothing less before the Lord than that together we should be conformed to that marvellous divine conception, according to purpose and counsel, “his body of glory.”

PHH Does the ‘commonwealth,’ or as it says below ‘associations of life’ stand over against these wicked links which we have been speaking about, which Paul mentions? Would the associations of life as having their existence in the heavens help, as a practical thing, to keep the assembly pure?

SMcC That is very important, and especially when it comes to this matter of finality, that our associations of life should be right. We must see that they are heavenly; that is, the social side and social cliques and social classes, and all that kind of thing that is inimical to the truth of the assembly, it would all go out in the light of this, “our commonwealth has its existence in the heavens.”

AEM Hospitality is a heavenly feature?

SMcC It is indeed. It was the feature of the first heavenly man in the type, Abraham, was it not?

AJG Hospitality without partisanship.

SMcC Very important, I mean, it is very important that we should be saved and delivered from partiality, having persons to our houses that are on the same social level and status, the same professional level and status. We want to see that the assembly would abominate all that kind of thing, and that we are lifted on to a heavenly level, where all the saints are great in our eyes.

EEP Does Romans 16 indicate that Paul was not a partial man?

SMcC It shows how he knew all the brethren. It was not just that he had a list of them, that he could read off their names, but he knew them, and the impressions of Christ and the spiritual qualities that marked them.

PHH Were you going to say something about ‘our body’?

SMcC I thought it showed the way that we are bound up together in this matter, with Paul. Paul links himself on with the saints, like Abigail and David, in “the bundle of the living.” The expression “who shall transform our body,” is akin to “our house,” in 2 Corinthians 5, “which is from heaven.” What would you say?

PHH I think I can say I was thinking something like that. Is it a kind of collective or characteristic thing which belongs to the saints as of the assembly? So that you have not the different individual persons in your mind, but something which is characteristic of all, as being in this condition?

SMcC Exactly. That is what is in mind. Now in regard to this great event in 1 Thessalonians 4, it says, “For this we say to you in the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who remain to the coming of the Lord, are in no way to anticipate those who have fallen asleep; for the Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven.” I think it is very affecting that the Lord Himself is accompanied by all these augmentary features, if I might reverently refer to them as that. “The Lord himself, with an assembling shout, with archangel’s voice and with trump of God, shall descend from heaven; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; then we, the living who remain, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall be always with the Lord.” What a blessed hope we have! How living is it with us?

JSE Could these three passages be linked with finality under three distinct headings? In this last scripture, would finality be presented to the brethren for their comfort amid sorrow, and would it be presented to the Philippians because of their practical enjoyment of heavenly associations and freedom from everything that is alien; and would the finality in Ephesians 5 be connected with the glory and consummation of love’s service with its objects? Would you think that is right?

SMcC Yes, I think that is right.

PHH Does this passage in Thessalonians bear more upon the Lord than the great change which is to happen to the saints, as such? In 1 Corinthians 15 for instance it says, “we shall not all fall asleep ... we shall all be changed,” and so on. But I notice that this part says, “The Lord himself.”

SMcC There is no literal mention of the change in 1 Thessalonians 4; it involves it, but it is not developed there; it is to fasten our attention on the Lord. I think this matter of archangel’s voice is very interesting. Why does that come in? The angels attended Christ when He came into the world, they attended His reception into glory, and it is a wonderful thing that there should be a reference to the character of what is angelic in this wonderful event of the saints going into glory with Christ, “The Lord himself ... with archangel’s voice ... shall descend.”

JSE Is there a military touch in that, because there is only one archangel mentioned, and he is a military one, is he not?

SMcC I think so, the assembling shout, the archangel’s voice and the trump of God, all have a military setting.

CMM Whilst we connect “the Spirit and the bride say, Come,” mainly with the appearing, is there a sense in which we can view the coming of the Lord as one complete matter, so to speak, in two parts? Is the immediate hope of the assembly linked with this wonderful moment, the marriage of the Lamb?

SMcC Just so. This very passage involves both sides. Verse 14, for instance, says, “For if we believe that Jesus has died and has risen again, so also God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.” And then in the next chapter we have references to the appearing. So that I think there is a faint suggestion of the whole thing here, but the immediate application is to the rapture.

VCL Are we not to be reminded each Lord’s day morning, at the assembly meeting, of both? The whole joy and glory of finality thus covers the service of God.

SMcC Just so. I am sure that these thoughts as to what is distinctive and final should fill our minds and our hearts in relation to Paul’s ministry, and they would help us, in the spirit of Paul, in regard to all that pertains to our path here.