LIGHT AND SHINING
[p. 126] LIGHT AND SHINING
Isaiah 60: 1 - 3; Revelation 21: 22 - 27; Revelation 22: 1 - 7
FER It is important to apprehend that the church anticipates morally the coming of the Lord. The passage I read in Isaiah 60, refers to the coming of the Lord and the place of Israel, but the church anticipates that coming. You get another proof of that in the end of Isaiah and of Ephesians. The Lord takes up righteousness for a breastplate, and the helmet of salvation. He clothes Himself with zeal as a cloak, and the helmet and the breastplate characterise Him when He comes. Well, the admonition to us at the end of the epistle to the Ephesians is to take the breastplate of righteousness and the helmet of salvation. In that way we anticipate the coming of the Lord.
JP So that all that will come into display when the Lord comes is set forth now morally in the power of the Spirit in the church.
FER And in that way the church anticipates the coming of the Lord. The Lord will have to deal with enemies down here and that kind of thing. We have to meet in the meantime spiritual forms of the wickedness in the heavenly places, and we take up what properly is characteristic of Christ.
WM Do you think that is because the Ephesians are looked upon as in the full light of God?
FER I think so, and all is anticipative. You cannot very well understand that epistle unless you see it anticipates the coming of the Lord. For instance, we are said to be quickened together with Christ and raised up together and made to sit together in the heavenly places in Christ. How can you understand that if you do not view it in the light of what is effected in the coming of the Lord?
WM That will be true actually in the coming of the Lord.
FER [p. 127] It is in some sense anticipated now because it speaks of it as having been done.
HF Is that not literally true of christians now, made to sit together in heavenly places?
FER No, you are sitting on that seat.
HF I am bodily.
FER Then it is not literally true.
HF You mean the full consummation of it will be future?
FER I mean it will be literally true then.
HF Is it not true spiritually now?
FER I was saying there is some sense in which it is true now. It is “in Christ Jesus”; it is put abstractly. It cannot be literally true now, else we would not be here this afternoon.
JMD One can reach it in the apprehension of their soul.
FER It is not looked at in the way of apprehension, but of what God has wrought, He “hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus”. We have to view ourselves abstractly as in Christ Jesus in order to enter into it.
CA Would you say it is morally true now?
FER Yes, but it is looked at as what God has wrought. I think it refers to the place of the saints in the great scheme of His purpose. He has “made known to us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for the administration of the fulness of times; to head up all things in the Christ”. It brings out the place God has given to the church in the scheme of His purpose. My only point in regard to it is, that it is anticipating what will take place at the coming of the Lord; the object of it is, “That in the ages to come (not now) he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus”. It contemplates the church as the vessel in [p. 128] which God will set forth in the universe the exceeding riches of His grace. That you get in the heavenly city. The nations of the earth walk in the light of it, and the kings of the earth bring their honour and glory unto it. The glory of God is the light of it.
HF The heavenly city is the church, is it not?
FER I think so.
GWH By the coming of the Lord do you refer to 1 Thessalonians 4?
FER Quite so. So, too, the Revelation, the last clause I read, “Behold, I come quickly”.
JT Is that correct, Thessalonians?
FER Yes, “we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep”.
JT Would, “Behold, I come quickly”, be the same idea?
FER I think so.
HF What is the significance in the helmet of salvation and the breastplate of righteousness? Why the helmet of salvation and breastplate of righteousness?
FER I think the one hangs upon the other. I think Christ has established divine righteousness. Hence it is He brings salvation to His people, but the point is He is the salvation. Simeon said, “Mine eyes have seen thy salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; a light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of thy people Israel”. Christ is the salvation, so He has salvation as a helmet.
HF That is right, but what I meant was why is one the breastplate and the other the helmet?
FER Because I think by the one the breast is protected, and by the other the head. You could not apply that to Christ, because, of course, there is no protection needed in regard of Him. You must take up the figure in some way that allows it to be applicable to Christ.
WM And the connection is there between these passages and what we had before us this morning.
FER [p. 129] That is important. Well, suppose we have got so far, that is, we apprehend righteousness; God has brought in His righteousness, you are placed in attachment to Christ, and brought into the reality of salvation. What has come to pass then is that you are in divine light; the glory of the Lord has risen upon you, you are come into the light of glory, and you shine. That is what led me to read this passage, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee”; it is an appeal. “Arise, shine; ... For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising”. Now, I would maintain that in some sense that must have been fulfilled. As to the actual application of the prophecy, it is what will be in connection with the coming of the Lord to Israel; but there is some sense in which it must have been fulfilled.
J.T. Why do you say so?
FER Because I think everything that God purposes in regard of Israel must have been fulfilled in some sense. Nothing of God has failed.
WM So the gentiles have been revealed?
FER Yes.
GR Do you mean it has come to pass in Christ?
FER It has come to pass in the church in some sense. That is, Israel, in whom this has come to pass in some sense.
JP If righteousness and salvation have come to pass, why not the rest?
FER That is exactly my point.
JP Do you not get in the New Testament, “God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts”?
F.E.R. What for?
JP “To give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”.
FER Yes. There are two things: “the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee”, and “thy light is come”. Then, “behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people”. All that has come to pass. It was in such a state of things that the gospel first came in. The light of God arose in a sense upon Israel, that is there was something here upon earth upon which Jehovah arose, and on which His glory was seen. “And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising”.
HF Do you think that was fulfilled before the incarnation?
FER I think it was fulfilled in the church.
HF You say there is some sense in which it is fulfilled in Israel.
FER I think it is in the true Israel.
JMD That is, the children of faith.
FER The Israel of God; and it is continued now in the church.
WM Because God recognises a christian as being a Jew now in a spiritual sense.
FER If you go back to the church at the beginning there was no gentile there at all. It was a remnant of Israel, but the remnant stood for the true Israel, and what came to pass in the advent of the Holy Spirit was that the glory of the Lord had risen upon them, and the time had come for their light to shine. There was light in the world. The Lord speaks of the church in that way, a city set on a hill.
JP Would not this verse involve it, “That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ?” The “we” is the Jew.
FER Quite so, because the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee and the time has come for thy shining.
JT And “[p. 131] that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light”.
FER There you get it, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people;
that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy”. All is come to pass in the true Israel; that is, they have come into righteousness and salvation. You will remember in the beginning of that chapter, “that by it ye may grow up to salvation”. Now the glory of Jehovah is risen upon thee and the time of thy shining is come.
JT There is an analogy between that and John 7, where the soul is in the light of Christ glorified, “out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”.
FER There is an analogy, for that chapter contemplates the feast of tabernacles.
GT When does one get the full benefit of salvation?
FER As soon as ever you like. You do not get it in regard to your body, but you may get the full benefit of it as soon as the Spirit of God can give it to you.
JT I thought we had the fulness of salvation when our bodies were changed.
FER You wait for salvation, that is the redemption of the body. You do not get that yet, but you have it so far as the Spirit of God can give it to us, we have it in the christian circle.
JT Peter takes up the people and points out what they had now. Soul salvation was present to them, and there was to be an effect produced, and that is the virtues of Him that had called them out of darkness into His marvellous light were to be manifested in them here.
HF Would you not say there were two aspects of salvation in that sense, the salvation of the body and the other that you are speaking of now?
FER I think so. We are saved in hope because you are looking for the redemption of the body. That is what the apostle says in Romans 8, but then it is equally true that He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works.
[p. 132] JT I see the christian circle is a great point, but I think in the mind of many it might be thought to be the little circle that we are connected with.
FER If I speak of the christian circle I do not mean any little circle, but the entire christian circle. You must take up the idea abstractly. As things were at the beginning of the Acts of the Apostles it was not at all difficult to apprehend the idea. The apostles were preaching the kingdom, that is, Christ, and the effect was that the word was believed, and those who believed the word received the Spirit, and were brought into righteousness and attachment; but then they were baptised and brought into the christian circle, and there it was they found salvation. There is no doubt about that. They were saved from that untoward generation by being brought into the circle where Christ was.
HF Every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is in that circle, is he not?
FER Where can you find the circle?
HF I do not know.
FER Evidently it was a circle then known and apart from the world, but the difficulty is to find that now. The world has captured christianity and hence the christian circle is so completely obscured.
Rem Nevertheless it exists.
FER That is a very great point.
AS Is not the church the christian circle?
FER Yes, I take up the thought from the epistle to the Colossians; it is the circle of the brethren. By this we know that we have passed out of death into life because we love the brethren. Where can you find the brethren? You can find two or three of them, but where can you find them now in any given place?
WLP You said this morning that the church was submerged. I suppose that would apply to the christian circle. Salvation in coming into the christian circle; is that as individuals?
FER I go back to what things were at the beginning,
[p. 133] because you cannot get any true apprehension of things now except in doing that. For instance, if we speak about the day of Pentecost, the point of attraction existed and the apostle preached, but at the same time the christian circle existed; they never went out preaching until the christian circle was there, because God intended that people should not only be brought into righteousness but into salvation. Therefore God provided the point of righteousness and the vessel of salvation before there was any preaching at all. Both were there on the day of Pentecost. Salvation meant in that day being brought out of Judaism and heathenism, and being baptised and brought into the christian circle.
JP It is simple enough because in verse 40 we get, “And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation”, and then verse 41, “they that gladly received his word were baptised: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”. The hundred and twenty were the circle then.
FER They were the christian circle, but at the same time that one hundred and twenty was really the true Israel; and what had come to pass in the coming of the Spirit was that the glory of the Lord had risen upon them. The Spirit was the Spirit of glory, and the glory of the Lord had risen upon them, and the time of their shining had come, and shine they did.
JG “And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved”, would that bring it before us?
FER That applies to the saved remnant of Israel whom God provided for, and they were brought into the church.
JT And the prophets had spoken of the sufferings of Christ and the glory, but they had not ministered these things to themselves but to us, reported unto us by the Spirit of God come down from heaven.
FER Quite so, the Spirit has brought report of the glory of the Lord and hence the true Israel found [p. 134] themselves in the light of the glory; the glory of the Lord had risen upon them.
JT And they shone, too.
FER Yes.
JSA All that you are saying really gives a very exalted place to the church in the ways of God here, and we have rather lost the sense of it.
JP And if their shining got them into a little trouble they were encouraged by being told that the Spirit of glory and of God rested upon them.
FER Quite so.
JG Would you say we can look back to the formation of the circle in the Acts, and the fulness of it when the Lord comes to take it away?
FER But the christian circle will no longer subsist then. When the church is seen again (its light has been completely obscured here and the candlestick taken out of its place) it will be seen as the heavenly city. Not as the christian circle, but as the heavenly city having the glory of God and her light like unto a stone most precious.
GWH I suppose in a day like this, one has to hold the idea of the circle abstractly, nevertheless to be in the power of it.
FER Quite so, else we set up to be the circle. The working of it is this, that if you apprehend the idea abstractly it controls you, and the effect is this, that you will not connect yourself with anything that is contrary to the circle. If I cannot get the circle I will not go on with what is not according to the circle, and that marks our position at the present time. We do not assume to be the circle.
GWH So in Colossians 3, you see the thing there and seek to walk in the principles and power of it.
FER We walk in the light of it. We cannot expect to see the circle because the church has failed and never will be restored, but it is important to remember that the church will come out as the heavenly city, having the glory of God and her light like unto a stone [p. 135] most precious.
GWH Now we seek to be conformed to these principles and refuse everything contrary to them.
FER Exactly. There is no book in Scripture which pictures the defection of the church in the same way as the Revelation does in the beginning, in the seven churches. You get the gradual defection and the ultimate ruin of the church depicted. It becomes a subject of judgement, and then you never read a word more in the Revelation about the church until it comes out as the heavenly city. Looked at as a vessel of light, the candlestick is taken away. It has failed as a witness, and yet at the end the heavenly city comes down from God, having the glory of God, and her light like unto a stone most precious.
JSA The difficulties you were speaking of make it clear that it needs faith for people to walk in the light of that in a day like the present, and that is where the difficulty arises practically.
FER I wonder how we are going to get on without faith. The present day is a day that requires faith and courage in a peculiar way.
JSA And that is possibly why attempts have been made to re-constitute a little circle, because there is a lack of faith.
FER All these attempts have ended in failure. You cannot constitute a circle.
FC I suppose the apostle Paul saw the breakdown of things, but at the close he can say, “I have kept the faith”.
FER As we have seen on previous days, our path is intensely individual. You are glad to walk with anybody you can walk with, but that does not alter the fact that the path is intensely individual, and if people come into fellowship with us they have to look to it that they have faith for the path. It takes much more faith for the path than people think.
JMD So because the christian circle cannot be found they were exhorted to be overcomers in that which professes to be it.
FER Yes.
WCR If those come in that have not faith for the path, what happens?
FER They become discontented and go on discontented.
W.C.R. Are they any help?
FER We are no help to them, and they are no help to us.
GT Do you believe such come into fellowship?
FER They are there with us.
JT I like that idea immensely, “Arise, shine”, that is a grand point.
FER That was the appeal fulfilled in the coming of the Spirit to the church, to the true Israel which was there at that moment, and the church in a way commanded the attention of the world. The world was turned upside down.
FF It is rather discouraging for young people to hear they have not faith for the whole pathway; they will get discouraged and drop off.
FER I have no hesitation in saying I would not try and induce anybody to come into the path.
FF I do not mean that; but for those who are in the path, they generally speak of young people as those who drift away.
FER What I find with young people is that their attitude is very unhappy sometimes toward those who are there. They are discontented and fault-finding and the ones they do not find fault with are themselves. I know that many read literature that does not profit them.
GT Why do you mention the young people?
FER I trust the old people are better.
WLP What literature have you reference to?
FER Light reading. Do you think there is no light reading among us? I am certain light reading is sapping away everything with some of the young. When I came into fellowship I had no more light reading. I did not go on any more with music and the kind of things that [p. 137] people are occupied with. I had done with it; but these things are gone on with, and they are sapping the moisture away from the young, and that is the cause of a great deal of weakness among us. If you are going on with Christ there is a necessity for some amount of self-denial. There must be prayer and fasting. It is useless to think you are going on with Christ outside of the camp without it.
GWH It is not physical but moral fasting.
FER Moral; it is self-abnegation. The real question raised is, is there truth in things? People go on as though there were no truth in things; the effort is needed to bring under people’s attention, not doctrine, but that Christianity is a reality and vitality. If it be vital, and christians be real, then undoubtedly to be with Christ and for Christ will demand a certain amount of self-abnegation, and people had better make up their minds to it.
GWH If one is to put on the Lord Jesus Christ they have to make no provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.
FER Exactly.
WLP Then there must be lawlessness among us.
FER I am afraid certain traces of it.
Ques Do you say the first verse of Isaiah 60 applies to the saints today?
FER I suppose the Spirit of glory is still here.
JP Is it not the same as Philippians 2, “Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life”?
FER But how are you to shine?
JP Well, you cannot shine unless you are in the light.
FER You are as dark as night unless you are in the light. You only shine by reflected light, and if you do [p. 138] shine it is a proof that the glory of the Lord has risen upon you.
JT The fact that we get light from the moon shows the sun must be somewhere in the heavens.
WCR Is it not a great thing to let the light shine upon us?
FER Yes, if you come into the shining of Christ you become luminous, you will not be luminous in any other way.
GT So the shining is individual?
FER I do not think so. It is “ye”, the company he is writing to at Philippi.
HF Then the only way we can shine is as reflectors?
FER Yes, we have no light in ourselves.
GR So the heavenly city.
GT I am not clear as to the company shining if the individual does not shine.
FER But you must admit that the shining in this chapter in Isaiah is connected with the nation.
GT Would you mind allowing me to connect it with us now?
FER I was only connecting it with the church at the beginning, that is, there was the Israel of God at the beginning. The church in the Acts was shining. The shining was connected with that company.
JT That was like the glory of the former house. That never reappears.
FER No, but I think the church at the beginning was what God intended, a reflection of Christ. The glory of God was risen upon them. They were in the light of the revelation, and their shining was in their relation one to another. They were taken account of as a company. The company was there in the unity of the faith, and in that way Christ was reproduced and they shone as light.
WLP That is not true now on account of the failure.
FER Quite so, that is why the Lord says to Ephesus, “thou hast left thy first love”, and He threatens to remove their candlestick unless they [p. 139] repent.
JT When there is no hope of repentance then it is a question of the Lord’s coming.
FER Quite so.
Ques I suppose shining would be very much like, “Holding forth the word of life”.
FER But there is something previous, “shine as lights in the world”. Then “Holding forth the word of life”. You must first get shining as lights in the world, and that must be a reflected light; but in shining as lights in the world you hold forth the word of life.
JP And that plainly involves the relationship one to another.
FER Evidently.
JMD What is holding forth the word of life?
FER I do not know except what it says. I take it they were to hold forth the testimony of life. That brings in another very important point, and that is that in early days the saints were not simply in righteousness and salvation, but in life. Eternal life was understood and they were in the reality of it. The consequence was eternal life shone forth in them. They held forth the word of life in that way. They were in eternal life, and eternal life shone forth in them.
PAES Would you say there can be no life apart from light?
FER No, of course not.
GWH In the early days they were in the conditions you have spoken of previously; rule, atmosphere and light.
FER All the conditions were there and they abode in them. We have had two before us pretty much; that is, rule connected with righteousness, and atmosphere connected with the christian circle; and they had the third condition, which was light. And they abode in those conditions and those conditions abode in them. The consequence was, life shone forth in them. They were the witness of life like at the end of the epistle of John, “God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son”, and that [p. 140] is the witness.
CHB Is it possible to have the company shining today?
FER But the point is you cannot get the company.
WLP Are we responsible to be in the position at the present time as they were at the beginning?
FER I think that is what we desire. We want to get back to what was at the beginning. It is the only thing we can do. “Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father”. We can only continue in that which we have heard from the beginning. We have no other resource but that, and if so we shall continue in the Son and in the Father. “And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life”.
GWH Would you say that what one has to do in a day like this is to be in the power of that which was at the beginning, and at the same time look on to what will be manifest again in the heavenly city?
FER I think so. You want to get back to what was at the beginning, but there is no hope of restoration as at the beginning, so your mind is carried on to what is coming.
GR And just in the measure in which these things are true there will be some little light shining out.
FER That is it. There will be no light in us if we have not in view what is coming.
GR So even in the heavenly city her light is like unto a stone most precious. Her light is all reflected there. There was no inherent light even in the precious stones.
FER No.
FF How can that state of things be brought about?
FER By getting back to first principles. There are three great principles which are essential to every christian, which we have had before us a good many times. The first rule, the second atmosphere, which we also had this morning, and the third light. You get into these three conditions and you will be like a [p. 141] luminous vessel.
GWH The atmosphere is the circle pervaded by the love of Christ, and the light is of the love of God.
FER The light is the love of God in its application to us down here, not in heaven. You get into these conditions of rule, atmosphere and light, and you will be luminous. You will no longer be opaque.
JP That is why you have spoken of the light in connection with 1 John 4, because it is not heaven, but continues down here in our path of responsibility down to the day of judgement.
FER Exactly. It is down here you want rule, and the christian circle and the atmosphere, and the application of God’s love to you in your pathway. You want the light of God’s love bearing upon you, and the effect is that your body is no longer opaque, but luminous. You can understand the appeal, “Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee”.
CHB That is the individual being luminous.
FER It is, but then you cannot confine it to the individual. What we are as christians comes out only in relation to one another. “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another”. So, too, “We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren”.
WM I suppose being in the good of these conditions we become witnesses to the fact that the Son of God is come.
FER Exactly.
WM It may be a feeble witness now, and is, but that is the point we are going in for.
FER Exactly.
Ques Would it be right to say that those in that circle are under the influence of the One who formed the circle?
FER I think so.
JSA Really it is impossible to walk rightly here, so to speak, in the light of God and pleasing to Him, unless you have some kind of apprehension of [p. 142] the circle.
FER I am sure it is entirely impossible. I think everybody who talks about eternal life, and it has been talked about pretty much, wants to know the necessary conditions. You cannot talk about life without conditions. There is no life existing in the universe apart from conditions, except the life of God. Every angel and man is dependent on conditions.
WM God alone is self-existent in that way.
FER Yes. God is independent of conditions because He is God. No other being that ever was created is independent of conditions. Our natural life, our spiritual life, is dependent on conditions; but God has appointed conditions, and the conditions are there, and if we exist in the conditions the conditions are maintained in us.
JP He has abolished death and brought life and incorruptibility to light.
FER Yes, by the gospel.
JT I suppose the shining in the future day in the heavenly city will not be much different from what it was at the beginning. I mean the quality and the kind of the thing is pretty much the same.
FER Morally it is the same. What has to come out in the heavenly city properly, the light and witness, ought to come out in the church now; but the church will be the great witness in that day of God’s grace. The church will be the perfect expression of Christ morally in that day, so the church is to be the expression of Christ morally now.
JT I was thinking a moment ago when you were speaking of life that Zion is realised in the church because it is there the Lord commanded the blessing.
FER Quite so.
Ques Has service anything to do with shining?
FER I do not think so. I think shining is that you are in the light. As sure as possible if you are in the light you will shine.
HF Have fruit bearing and shining [p. 143] any connection?
FER I think fruit bearing is the consequence of rule. If we are not in rule there will not be fruit bearing, but if we are, fruit bearing is the result. You are married to another, even to Him that is raised from the dead, to bring forth fruit unto God. A wife is brought into rule. She never was in that rule before, but the moment she is married she is subject to the rule of her husband, and it is in subjection that fruit is borne.
JT Do you mean by rule, abiding in Christ?
FER Yes, abiding in Christ is that you are in rule, just as the earth is under rule. I was thinking of it in regard to coming under the influence of Christ. Take the influence of the law of gravity, it affects every part of your body. There is not an inch of your body that is not affected by law. Well, the influence of Christ affects us, but it will only affect that part of you that is of God. Therefore it is essential that you shall have Christ dwelling in your heart by faith, and if you have, you will be held entirely under the influence of Christ; but the influence of Christ will only touch in us that which is of Himself, and the point is that every part of us should be affected by it.
JT Do you mean even our bodies?
FER Yes, even our bodies.
WLP Your whole spirit and soul and body preserved blameless.
FER Quite so, but the great thing is to be strengthened with might by God’s Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart by faith. We want that and then the influence of Christ will touch us completely. There never ought to be a moment when Christ is not present to you. If you take a wife whose husband is absent, she has continually her husband dwelling in her heart. So it is in regard to a christian. Christ is absent but never absent from his heart.
WCR You told us this morning no matter what we did, if it was not done under the influence of Christ it would not be right.
[p. 144] FER Exactly, but the point is how the influence of Christ is to affect you. It will never affect anything but what is of Christ. The flesh is not affected by Christ. The natural man will be only influenced by what is of himself. The law of gravity affects every part of the body because every part of the body is subject to that law. The influence of Christ will only affect in us that which is of Christ. Therefore it is essential that we should have Christ dwelling in the heart by faith.
WM The flesh is not subject to the law of God neither indeed can be.
FER No.
JMD Would you say a little about Revelation 22: 5, “And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light”.
FER Natural light is not needed there.
JMD Where does this speak about?
FER In the heavenly city, in the age to come, they have no need of natural light. There is no night there. The greatest luminaries of this world will not have place there. They will be eclipsed. One thing that will mark it will be there will be nothing but moral light.
JT The same thing as we get as regards the church.
FER I do not think the church wants the help of man’s mind. The mind of man is in itself out of place in the church. That is what the apostle brings out in 1 Corinthians 3. The Spirit of God is there and the light that pervades the church is moral, the light of God.
GR So that the expression, “there shall be no night there”, means there is no moral darkness?
FER Yes.
JMD No ignorance of God.
WLP The intelligence will be the intelligence of the Spirit.
FER Quite so.
WM Do you think man’s mind is essentially unholy?
FER I think so, that is what I gather from [p. 145] 1 Corinthians 3; where the Holy Spirit of God is, there is no room for the mind of man.
GWH So there will be two things that will characterise the heavenly city, that is intelligence and love.
FER And that characterises the church now. “To comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; and to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God”. You cannot know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge unless you partake in it, because only love knows love. So you cannot know God if you do not love.
GR How does mind come in in 1 Corinthians 14?
FER It is the eye. In divine things when mind becomes anything more than the eye it is out of place.
GR So that it is really perception.
FER What I understand by 1 Corinthians 14 is that when you are speaking in the assembly you are not looking at the ceiling, but at those you are talking to, and are conscious that they apprehend what you are saying.
JS And if they do not, perhaps you had better stop.
GR Some of them take it in.
FER I have heard some people speaking as though they were going off into rhapsodies; that is not the way.
GR “Whether we be sober, it is for your cause”.
FER It is not the mind of great natural power that discerns things. A man may be very illiterate, and very little informed in the things of this world, and yet, if he is spiritual, he may make great advance in divine things.
JSA I suppose one cause of the corruption of things in christianity is that man’s mind has been given a distinguished place.
FER The moment man’s mind became active in divine things, and cast divine things into human forms, divine things were corrupted.
GT Is man’s mind the enemy of Christ?
FER I do not know about that. I think the mind of [p. 146] man is put out of court because man is defiled; it is not holy enough.
WLP Are mind and will the same?
FER No, I would not say that exactly. The natural mind is more or less corrupt. The poorest person in the world has his mind more or less defiled. We want in divine things to take care that it is not the natural mind in activity, but the Spirit of God, because it is only by the Spirit of God that we can appreciate the holiness of God.