READING ON SECOND TIMOTHY
READING ON SECOND TIMOTHY
FER Anybody must be struck with the difference between these two epistles; though the first epistle is addressed to Timothy, yet the point in it is the ordering of the house of God, while in the second it is the ordering of himself. I may have understanding as to the house of God, but the point at the present time is that I have to look to myself.
JT That is to say what is coming out now in view of the fact that the house is submerged.
FER Quite so; everything hangs on the servant. I think we ought to take individuality much more to heart. Individually to be apart from everything that is accredited in christendom; and if we have taken our place apart from these things, we should not set to work to construct anything else. The point is to stand apart in individuality and not to lose the sense of that. There is in us a strong disposition to build something up. Many would like brethren as a body to be ordered on scriptural forms, to have their gospel meetings and Sunday schools, etc.; that is the natural tendency, but in that we are simply building a sect.
GR And so it is a day when the man of God comes into the scene.
FER Yes. The man of God through Scripture was essentially individual.
WM It is the individual who is to follow “righteousness, faith, love, peace”.
FC If we were not in the good of the house of God we would not be very intelligent individuals.
FER The first epistle is given to us that we may know what the house of God is, but you must hold that abstractly, for you cannot get it in the concrete form.
[p. 71] There are very few things that we do not have now to hold abstractly.
HF I do not think it was quite clear to us what you said about Sunday schools, etc. You say they are not a collective, but an individual thing. Is that the thought?
FER No. I was saying we might be possibly building up a system on what we think to be scriptural lines, having our Sunday schools and gospel services, etc., but it would be as complete a sect as any. That is not the line on which I am.
HF You mean the system would be wrong.
FER Gospel work is all right, but it is individual, and you must be intensely individual where you stand aside from everything that is accredited in christendom.
HF Still there is the other side. Everything must be done decently and in order.
FER But that is addressed to the church when the church was in order.
HF Does it not apply to the church today?
FER I would try individually to do everything decently and in order. I would be sorry for anybody to have the opportunity of accusing me of disorder.
HF Would you not be sorry to have the assembly accused of being disorderly?
FER You cannot get the assembly in Plainfield or New York.
HF The saints in a meeting, they come together to remember the Lord.
FER But they are simply two or three who are seeking to walk in the light of the assembly; they are not the assembly.
HF No, I do not think we have the assembly.
GR I think there is a great point in the opening of this chapter, “Thou therefore, my son”. The individual is very prominent.
FER And the point before the mind of the apostle was really the passing on of the testimony.
GR I have been greatly struck for many years with [p. 72] Ezra, when he found that things had gotten into confusion he did not call a prayer meeting, but he got down himself and he very soon found others coming with him.
HF I am sure we are all clear about what you say, but for instance, in such a case as discipline could you not speak of dealing with a man as an assembly action; would it be an individual action?
FER It may be all right in that case to act in the light of the church, but discipline means to me that if a person has become a subject for discipline, I am not going to walk with that person any longer. If he won’t leave us I am going to leave him.
HF But must not the saints as a body take action in such a case, not the individual?
FER The ground that I would take would be to follow righteousness, faith, love, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart, if a man does not go on with righteousness, I would not go on with him.
HF Then you think there is no such thing as assembly action at this time?
FER I do not think saints are wrong in acting in the light of the church, but I am only saying how it strikes my mind.
Rem I would like to ask in reference to what Mr. F. was saying. Suppose any action is taken, we take action in the light of the assembly though we cannot see the assembly.
FER Discipline is a very serious matter, for if you act in discipline, you avow that a man put away is not only disqualified for your company but for the company of any christian on earth.
Rem That is, if he is put away as a wicked person.
FER Yes.
Rem But there is action sometimes taken that does not involve that.
FER The question in these days is difficult, but what it comes to is this, that a certain person has gone on in such a course that you cannot walk with that [p. 73] person.
HF What seems to be my difficulty today would be this, supposing there would be such a breach with some one in fellowship that he had to be rebuked for instance; the assembly, or whatever you like to call it, would have to do that. One could not do that rightly.
FER I think if it is not done by some one person it ought not to be done at all.
HF Not individually, but for the saints.
FER No, I do not think so. It is for himself.
Rem Here in Timothy it is addressed to an individual, “Them that sin rebuke before all”.
FER And he was to do it on his own account. It must be done by somebody who has moral weight to administer the rebuke.
HF Do you not think Timothy was different in a way; he had authority from the apostle, and was different from what an ordinary individual would be?
FER I think Timothy is typical of the servant that continues to the end, to the coming of the Lord.
Rem You judge that from the second verse of this chapter.
FER Yes. Paul looks on to the coming of the Lord. But I think we are getting away, for our point is the testimony in this epistle. The apostle commits it to Timothy. When everything has failed, and the house of God is no longer seen, then the thing which rallies you properly is the testimony.
Rem Before going into the chapter I wish you would give us in a few words the scope of the different chapters in the epistle.
FER I think the epistle is divided into two parts; the first two chapters and the second two chapters; the first part gives us the testimony, and in the second part the perilous times come and the apostle brings in to meet that not only what Timothy had heard from himself but the Holy Scriptures. All that comes in to meet the perilous times. In the first part it is the testimony of our Lord and Paul His prisoner.
[p. 74] Rem So it contemplates the passing away of the living witnesses and the coming in of the Holy Scriptures.
FER There are the things which thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, but not only that, the Holy Scriptures. You want every safeguard in perilous times.
JT That would be the Old Testament.
FER Everything that has the character of being holy writings. Every scripture is inspired of God. That becomes your safeguard.
HF Would you excuse me, I want to ask one more question. Can we not act on the authority of Corinthians, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to put such a one away?
FER I do not think we can act on the authority, but in the light of it; because you have not the assembly.
JT The authority would be to commit such a one unto Satan.
FER But the apostle is addressing himself to the conscience of the entire assembly at Corinth, and you can hardly act on the authority unless you can get the assembly in any given place. I suppose we can act in the light of it.
JT Does not the obligation remain to put away from amongst ourselves a wicked person?
FER That means I am not going on any longer with that person.
HF And you consider that an individual thing now?
FER It becomes every individual now. I do not object to the way brethren act; they seek to act in the light of the truth, and I would go with them in it.
WLP Would you look for the others in the gathering following the same line?
FER I think they would, brethren are simple in that way, and while they are acting in the light of the church, we would all go together.
JT The difficulty is why we could not regard that as a collective act.
FER I have difficulty in regard to the collective [p. 75] action in the existing state of things, because I am so afraid lest in it we are arrogating to ourselves a position that does not belong to us. If things are taken up simply and it is a question of acting in the light of Scripture, well and good; but if it comes practically to this, that we are arrogating to ourselves what properly belongs to the assembly of God, I would not care to go on with it at all; it is not recognising the present condition.
WM And that is why you say the action is taken in the light of the assembly.
FER Because you cannot get the assembly.
JT What would you say about, “Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them”?
FER That is in connection with prayer, “If two of you shall agree on earth, as touching anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of My Father which is in heaven, for where two or three are gathered together to My name there am I in the midst of them”. I do not think that is exactly the assembly.
WM That was not written in view of a day of ruin and confusion.
FER Evidently not; but to come back to the testimony, that is the point, and the care of the testimony. In the state of things which exists around us, the great thing is the testimony, and I have no doubt that the testimony is the rallying point.
WM What do you mean by the testimony?
FER It is Christ.
JP In a certain sense it is all that is left; it is all you can go back to now.
FER “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God”. The testimony, depend upon it, is now the rallying point, “Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given [p. 76] us in Christ Jesus before the world began, but is now made manifest”. The saving and calling in Christ Jesus are now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death and brought life and incorruptibility to light through the gospel. It is the rallying point now, for it is where you get away from formal christianity to Christ Jesus; that is the point for the moment.
JSA That is the point that links the units together if they are to be linked, and nothing formal or ecclesiastical.
FER All is in Christ Jesus. In the next chapter the apostle says, “Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus”. And at the close of the third chapter, “that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus”. You have salvation in Christ Jesus, and the point is to reach that. The house of God is to a large extent submerged. You cannot see it. You can only take account of it abstractly. What remains? Christ Jesus.
WM Would you say that in the beginning these things were seen in the saints?
FER Yes, the house of God was a security for things as long as the Holy Spirit ruled in the church. But what you contemplate in this second epistle is no longer the rule of the Holy Spirit, but the rule of man. Man has got into the place of authority in the church. It has become a great house, which means man is in authority. It has no longer the true character of the house of God but is the scene of man’s rule.
JT It would not be difficult to see the blessed effect of coming into the christian company in the beginning of the Acts; what an advantage it would be. There would be security there for them.
FER I think so.
HF Can you trace how far the Holy Spirit had His place in [p. 77] the church?
FER I think all the epistles give you the idea of the power and the rule of the Spirit, and it was maintained as long as the apostles remained down here. I have no doubt the decline came in after the time of the apostles. Paul leads us to expect it and undoubtedly it came to pass. Peter and John and Jude give us the same idea.
HF You say Paul was looking ahead in this epistle, writing to Timothy.
FER I think so. He says, “in the last days perilous times shall come”. He contemplates something worse than had already come in. Things were pretty bad in the first two chapters, but he expects worse.
JT You think the testimony then was to be maintained by individuals.
FER Timothy was to commit what he had heard from the apostle to faithful men who would be able to teach others also. The point is the testimony, and that is the rallying point.
JT As a matter of fact it is not difficult to see historically that whatever has been maintained has been maintained by individuals.
FER For instance, in what has occurred in the last century, the testimony was the rallying point.
Ques Would you say that verse is the rallying point, “Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel”?
FER Yes, and the apostle immediately adds, “Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound. Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory”. The great point now is to maintain and testify of the salvation which is in Christ Jesus. It is outside of this world. It goes on, “For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us”. We must insist on the great reality of salvation in Christ Jesus [p. 78] outside of the course of this world because we have to die and suffer with Christ.
JSA And as power to enter into these things is wholly by the Spirit, the great thing is to go back to what is of the Spirit and nothing else.
JT The apostle says, “Keep, by the Holy Spirit which dwells in us, the good deposit”. Do you think the testimony is equivalent to the gospel of the glory in the first epistle?
FER Not exactly. The testimony here is the testimony of our Lord. It is more personal of Christ. It refers to the place He has in the great divine system. “Who has annulled death, and brought to light life and incorruptibility by the glad tidings”. If He has done that, of necessity He is the great head and centre of the moral universe. Therefore it is the salvation in Christ Jesus.
HF What is the principle spoken of there? Is it the incarnation?
FER Yes, I think so. It is made manifest by the appearing. He has come in upon the scene, so to speak. Hence it goes on to add, He “has annulled death”, etc.
Ques What is the foundation of God spoken of, that standeth sure?
FER I suppose God’s foundation is His testimony.
JP That is what I thought. I was going to put that very point.
FER It is the testimony of God on which you can rely. God will stand true to His testimony.
JP It is what remains steady in the midst of all that has come in. People get their faith overthrown, but the firm foundation of God stands steady.
FER And you may depend upon it in regard to ourselves in separating from all that is around, the point is to come to the testimony, not simply to come out to a more scriptural order of meeting.
Rem Coming out to the testimony and to be a testimony.
[p. 79] FER Yes.
HF Would that be equivalent to going outside the camp?
FER Yes. I do not believe people will be right till they get an apprehension of Christ as the head and centre of the moral universe. That universe will shortly be displayed and will displace the whole existing system of this world.
JT Coming out to that testimony involves that you have the light of the thing. I fancy we present pretty much as complicated a position as any of the sects. We have a form of things which is very attractive and people can go on with the existing state of things and be comfortable. The difficulties of the path are not accepted.
WM I suppose coming out to the testimony involves leaving the world.
FER Because it is so evident, if you apprehend Christ, who has annulled death and brought life and incorruptibility to light by the gospel, you apprehend Him as the head and centre of the whole divine system.
JP And “in Christ Jesus” always views Him on the other side of death. That is, all has been brought to pass by God in Christ Jesus, and the testimony is the presentation of that, and the Holy Spirit is here the power of it.
FER Yes. There is to be a world in which death will not dominate. I apprehend that world will be characterised by life and incorruptibility. All that is to be brought to pass in Christ. But now it is brought to light.
Ques “If we be dead with him, we shall also live with him”. Is that present?
FER I think so. It is always the principle.
JT About the foundation. Do you think it refers to what is here or to what God is going to establish?
FER I do not know what better to say than that the foundation is God’s testimony, on which you can rely. It has its seal, it stands sure.
JT Then you rest in this, that God will effectuate His testimony.
FER Quite so. People have the vaguest idea [p. 80] of testimony. Testimony is the witness beforehand of that which God is going to display. God displays nothing till He has set it forward in testimony. You get that principle in the Old Testament; the Lord would do nothing but He would show it to His servants the prophets. We have the testimony in Christ of the world which God is going to set forth in His glory.
JP That is why the apostle by the Spirit says in Hebrews, “Ye are come”.
FER Quite so. God has given testimony of it beforehand. Now we are in the light of the testimony.
WM I suppose there is a good illustration of that in the case of Joseph. His exaltation was first testified of and then it came as a matter of fact.
JP One of the simplest instances of it is the flood.
FER Exactly. Israel never went into captivity to Assyria, nor Judah to Babylon till God had given abundant testimony. So, too, of their being restored from Babylon, God had given testimony. Christ never came till after testimony. And now the testimony of Christ has come in as the prelude to God making manifest Christ and the world of which Christ is the beginning and centre.
Rem The testimony begets the power of holding on as it were.
FER Yes, and hence it is “the darkness is passing and the true light already shines”.
JT That is evidently a great point when things are gone to the bad, that saints should get into the light of what God is going to effect.
FER Exactly, for you cannot go back to the past. God will not restore the church. God never restores anything that has failed on the ground of responsibility, but the Spirit of God leads you on to that which is coming.
HF Would it be a correct definition to say that testimony was the revelation of God’s purpose?
FER Testimony is more than that now, because it not only reveals God’s purpose, but it shows that in principle that purpose is effectuated in Christ.
JT Hence it is the light of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
JS He brings nothing to pass unawares.
FER Exactly. In principle everything is effectuated in Christ. The church, the Old Testament saints and Israel, are all effectuated in Christ.
JSA You get the statement, “Who has annulled death”, it is effectuated.
FER Exactly. Not yet made manifest, but effectuated.
JP So it is the principle of that statement in the Hebrews, “We see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus”.
WLP That is where the christian finds rest.
JT He is the Yea and Amen.
FER Yes. All the promises of God are established in Him and it is “for glory to God by us”, all these things are brought into view and are for glory to God by us, because we have come into the light of them all established in Christ.
GWH It is a most encouraging thing in the midst of all the darkness and failure and evil to see the light of that which God has established in Christ, and which He is going to bring in.
FER And another thing, the moment you get into the light of that, you get salvation, but it is the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
GWH That is the security for the believer today.
FER It is only in Christ Jesus you can escape from the course of things down here.
GWH I suppose that is why the apostle says, “be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus”.
FER Quite so, and the Scriptures can make us wise unto salvation in Christ Jesus.
WM Christ Jesus is the centre of another world.
FER Israel could not apprehend salvation as long as [p. 82] they remained in Egypt. There was redemption there, but they could not realise salvation but on the other side of the Red Sea.
JS And we should be in the light of another world.
FER Or rather in the light of the Head of it. The departure has been in connecting Christ in some way with the course of this world, and failing to recognise the necessity that Christ must be the beginning of another.
WM I suppose when Barnabas got entangled he gave up the testimony for the time being.
FER He got a film or something over his eyes.
JT You think the testimony involves entering the holiest.
FER I think so.
HF Will you explain that? It seems involved to me.
FER Until a person has entered the holiest he has no apprehension of what Christ is for God, only the apprehension of what Christ is for us. In the holiest you get the apprehension of what Christ is for God, and that is an immense advance in apprehension.
WM You apprehend Christ as the ark of the covenant.
FER And the mercy-seat. That is not what Christ is for us, but for God, because it is in the mercy-seat God speaks and the covenant is God’s covenant.
JT So the prayers of David are ended then.
HF So one can enter the holiest in an individual way.
FER Yes, there is the exhortation to enter the holiest. God has encouraged saints to draw near in order that they may get an apprehension of what Christ is on God’s part, and for God. It is a great point to get this; you begin to apprehend Christ as the beginning and centre of the moral universe, the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat.
JAC Is there any difference in thought between the mercy-seat and the throne?
FER I do not look upon the mercy-seat as being the throne. The mercy-seat is the mercy-seat; it is not [p. 83] spoken of as being the throne. I think the throne of God is Jerusalem, that is the city of the great king.
GWH Would you say the proof of one having entered the holiest is that he is intelligent in what God has reached in Christ?
FER I think there are two points into which we ought as christians to enter: one is the holiest, and the other the land. You first want to apprehend what Christ is as the One by whom God is able to carry out all the purposes of His love, and according to His love; but then when you apprehend Christ in that point of view you can apprehend what is the breadth, and length and depth and height of those purposes.
JT It seems to me that the greatest favour the Lord has conferred on His people is that He has made clear the thought of another world for them.
FER The Lord says, “the beginning of the creation of God”. He is not the end, but the beginning of the creation of God. He is the end in the sense of being the crown of all, but He is the beginning because everything is to take its character from Him morally. God never improves on the beginning. Adam was not improved upon. I do not believe in evolution, because I think it is wrong morally. It could not be according to God to begin at the bottom. I do not think there is a germ working up to a man. God sets forth at the outset what is to be. There never was a man like Adam and never will be.
JP But wonderful as Adam was he was only the figure of Him that was to come.
FER There never was a man to compare with Adam. You could not improve on Adam.
WM All was very good.
FER As good as God could make it of its kind and character. But then the Lord comes in and says, I am the beginning of the creation of God. It has been said that the foundation involves the roof. You make a foundation, but the ultimate purpose of the foundation is to support a roof.
[p. 84] Rem It is another order of man and a new creation that we have before us.
FER It is Christ, as I was attempting to point out yesterday. It is important to see that God has maintained a link between this scene and what He intends to bring in. Christ has come into the existing order of things, with resurrection inherent in Him, so that God can construct out of the wreck and ruin of this world a world that is according to Himself. That is what God is doing.
Rem The apprehension of that is really salvation in Christ Jesus.
FER I think so.
WM It is not absolutely a new creation, but the construction of a world out of the present world.
FER That is what you get in Ephesians. All is seen in death, even Christ is in death. Nothing but death under the eye of God. Then it is that God begins in the resurrection of Christ, and the church is brought out. That is the beginning of things in that way.
JP And then as you said just now, if Christ is the beginning of the creation of God, then of necessity that whole creation must take its character from Christ.
FER The apprehension of Christ in that light is wonderful to my mind.
JP Then we can understand how God will be complacent and delight in all.
FER Exactly. It is the point of reconciliation, that God may have complacency in all.
JSA Some of us were saying yesterday that we did not know much about it though we have been singing about it for a good many years, ‘Of the vast universe of bliss, the centre thou and Sun’.
HF I am not quite clear about this present creation.
JP I was going to say that we fail if we attempt to improve on the language of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit says, “the beginning of the creation of God”.
WM It might be understood to be absolutely a [p. 85] new creation and not the present order of things, the present earth.
JS Christ was the root of David as well as the offspring.
FER Yes, He is the bright and morning Star in anticipation of the Sun of righteousness, the Sun of righteousness comes in that sense. It is a prophetic declaration, “unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise”.
WM If Adam was only a figure, the true head is to come yet.
FER Exactly.
JT And indeed the very scene where Adam was everything was created for God’s pleasure.
Ques Is that why in John’s gospel it speaks of Christ giving His life for the world?
FER Yes, the principle of John’s writings is that Christ claims the world for God and the world is taken up in the only begotten Son. Christ not only came down from heaven, but He comes down from heaven to give life to the world.
Ques Do you mean that covers the future?
FER Undoubtedly. He takes away the sin of the world. “The bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world”. The devil is not going to have everything his own way.
JT And the christian is not prepared to allow the claim put forward of proprietorship.
FER No. It was pointed out as long as I have been in fellowship that the writings of John and the writings of Paul are in contrast. John brings God into the world and Paul carries the church up to heaven.
GR This morning what was very clearly brought before us was that all men were in view, but here it is the elect. Why is that difference in the two epistles?
FER Because christianity had come in and had been corrupted. There is another point, that while the testimony of God has its bearing to all men, yet after all, the [p. 86] gospel is that by which God effectuates His purpose in regard to the elect. Christ buys the field, but He buys it for the sake of the treasure; the gospel is the testimony of God in regard of all men, but it is the testimony by which God brings the elect to light.
GR Then you think in 2 Timothy the treasure is more in view and the epistle is on that line, that the elect may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
FER I think so. Christianity had come into the gentile world and had become corrupted.
JT Is there not a strong analogy between 2 Timothy and the gospel of John?
FER There is between that and the epistle of John.
JT I thought the gospel came in later.
FER Yes.
JP In speaking of the elect it is a question of obtaining here, that is the other side as you tried to point out, and we must not mix the two sides.
FER Yes, that they may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus.
JP It is always the elect that obtain it, “The election hath obtained it and the rest were blinded”.
FER There are two principles with God which He undoubtedly maintains; that is, on the one hand, responsibility, and on the other hand, sovereignty; and they are both morally necessary. God cannot give up responsibility. If all men were born again, God would give up responsibility, but if God gave up responsibility it would bring in confusion in regard of angels, so, too, in regard of those who were drowned in the flood; responsibility must be maintained, else God would appear unrighteous. God will maintain responsibility, but if God only maintained responsibility, there would not be one single soul saved. Therefore sovereignty comes in. People may try and reconcile the two, but the two great principles are an absolute necessity morally for God.
JSA And the testimony of God presented to man is [p. 87] on the line of responsibility, whilst the work of God in man is on the line of sovereignty.
FER Therefore you get the elect coming in.
Ques The exhortation here; is that put in as preserving against lawlessness and looseness in a day when individual faithfulness is called for, “follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart”?
FER I think that passage is misunderstood. I think it is those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart that have to look for you.
JSA That is, you have to follow righteousness.
FER That is in the lead, and those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart are to follow with you, but the great point is that righteousness is to be the leader. If you follow anything what you follow is the leader, and that is righteousness, then faith, love, and peace. You have not to look out for other people, but for yourself, and see that you follow your leader.
WM You do not follow people, but you follow these principles.
FER Because they are in the van. If other people are coming along too so much the better.
Rem That is the preservative against lawlessness.
FER Quite so. “Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart”.
JP I am afraid you are going to do away with our joining the brethren.
FER I am sure I am not going to follow the brethren, but I hope I will follow righteousness.
EW The company is already formed.
FER I know no company except the church.
EW The church as a whole?
FER Yes.
JT You get in Malachi, they that feared the Lord spake often one to another and the Lord took account [p. 88] of them.
FER Yes, but then you must remember this, that those who feared the Lord and spake often one to another were the remnant of Israel, there was not much beside them. Now you find the majority of those in the unity of the Spirit not following the line laid down in Timothy. You cannot run the remnant principle too hard, else you will put out a good many who are in the unity of the Spirit.
JS Have you any thought of the remnant today?
FER It gives me an unpleasant feeling when I hear any talk about it; we cannot compare ourselves with the remnant of Israel, because they were the only faithful ones. Now in the present day there are a great many people who are not walking according to 2 Timothy, who are nevertheless in the unity of the Spirit.
JT You mean the analogy between the company in Malachi and our position is not very great.
FER You cannot run it too hard.
GWH So you could hardly say we were a remnant company.
FER I do not like it.
JT What do you make of Philadelphia?
FER Whatever the Lord might see in Philadelphia was morally representative of the whole church; that is the value of it in the eye of the Lord. He says, “I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee”. I do not believe the Lord loves the brethren especially, but the whole church.
JT Do you not think certain conditions gave rise to the Lord speaking in that way?
FER If you answer to Philadelphia, the first thing would be that you would jealously guard the whole church in your mind.
Ques Then you do not know of any company of Christians that represents the assembly as such?
FER No.
Ques Nor any company that represents [p. 89] Philadelphia as such?
FER No.
JT All that you have been saying involves faith on the part of saints.
FER There are many who are going on outwardly with us, and I do not want to exclude them, who have no faith for the place. We carry them, and they come to the meetings, knowing that a certain kind of meeting will be carried on at a particular time; they may be orderly in walk and character, and yet they have no faith for the place, and it makes a great difficulty in the present time. I feel this, they do not gain much and they contribute nothing.
JS You mean to have faith for the path like Moses?
FER It is no light thing to take a stand outside of all that has credit as christianity, to go forth outside the camp bearing His reproach is a poor thing if you have not faith for it. If you do it because others do it, you will get unhappy and dissatisfied.
JS So you think there are a great many among us who have no faith for the path?
FER I am sure there are. In our coming together in assembly there is nothing there but what we bring. You do not find anything there. Whatever comes into the assembly in its normal character has to be brought there.
JT I am afraid a great many of our brethren come expecting a ready-made service there.
JS So we are really living in perilous times.
FER Very difficult times, but after all the Lord is above all, and if we are simple we will get the support of the Lord. How we are to go on without the support of the Lord I cannot tell; and you cannot look two days ahead. You do not want to know. There is grace enough in the Lord for the moment.
JT I think the fourth chapter is a wonderful comfort, because you get a unit in Paul and he says, “the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me”.
FER There is the testimony, “that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might [p. 90] hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion”. The confidence of the apostle is, “the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom”. Every one forsook him, but he says, “Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me”. You may depend upon it, the Lord will stand by those who stand by the testimony.
GR There was evidently faith there.
FER Yes.
JT Well, I have no difficulties about it; I believe the Lord will support His people at the present time.
FER The great thing is to stand by the testimony. Understand first what the testimony means and then stand by it. Do not attempt to stand by Brethrenism, but by the testimony.
CA And you can only do that individually.
FER But then others may be seeking to do it as well as you and you follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
WM You cannot speak of an individual or collective testimony. The testimony is Christ.
FER Yes.
GWH After all we have a great deal to encourage us, have we not?
CA I suppose the apostle Paul did not feel any reason to be discouraged.
FER No.