READINGS ON COLOSSIANS (1)
READINGS ON COLOSSIANS (1)
FER I suppose the ruling thought of the epistle is that of Christ as Head, and in that connection the reconciliation of all things.
JP I think you said there is a presentation of Christ peculiar to every epistle.
FER Yes. We were saying that at Chicago. I think it is a great help to apprehend that in the case of each epistle.
JP It is really the key, I suppose.
FER I think it is, just as in the prophets the particular way in which Christ is presented in each prophecy is a key to the understanding of each prophecy. The Spirit of God does not travel over the same ground twice. The same thought applies to the gospels. The light in which Christ is presented in each particular gospel is the key to the understanding of the gospel. One important feature in it is that it goes to make up the completeness of Scripture and in a certain sense the completeness of Christ.
JSA I think one can understand it very well if we remember, in the first place, how infinite the presentation of a divine person must be and also that Christ is the substance of all Scripture.
CA Would you say the Spirit of God presents Him in Colossians as Head?
FER Yes; that is insisted on so much in chapter 1.
CA I suppose He becomes Head of all things here.
FER Yes, and Head to the church; but it is as Head over all things that He is Head to the church. You get the same sequence in Ephesians. It is as Head over all things that He is Head to the church. That is what comes out in [p. 254] the first chapter. His being Head of all things is connected with the reconciliation of all things.
JP Do you not think we have had in the past somewhat of a limited thought (true enough so far as it went), a limited apprehension of the headship of Christ? One has been apt to view Christ as Head to the body only, whereas He is Head over all things, and it is as Head over all things He is Head to the assembly.
FER That is the way in which Scripture presents things.
JSA If He is Head over all things then reconciliation in a wide aspect must come in.
J.A. Who made Him Head?
FER He is divinely appointed. He is constituted Head. He is not a self-made Head, but a divinely appointed Head.
GWH Just as Adam was head of this creation.
FER Yes.
CA In verse 19 it says all the fulness of the Godhead was pleased to dwell in Him.
FER It says, “by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist”.
EW Would you say that at the present time His headship over all things is not manifested?
FER Nothing is manifest yet, but we being in the light understand Him as the Head of the assembly. Everything so to speak at the present time lies in mystery. The mystery is made manifest to those who have power to see it, but nothing is manifest except to faith.
GWH It is the day when everything is for faith.
FER Yes; therefore you get in the New Testament a great deal about the mystery, and the effort of the apostle is that he might make manifest the mystery. The mystery is made manifest to those who are able to see it. Nothing is made manifest to everybody as [p. 255] yet.
EW In the kingdom it will be.
FER Exactly. But the present time is the time of the mysteries of the kingdom.
CA I suppose the believer knows Him as Head only to faith.
FER Evidently.
JSA I think there are two scriptures which, if put together, make it pretty clear. At the end of Matthew, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth”, and in Hebrews, “now we see not yet all things put under him”.
JHC In the new creation is He manifested as Head through the assembly?
FER I think everything will come out in Christ in that way in reconciliation. Everything is brought into reconciliation.
JHC Will the manifestation of it be seen then through the assembly?
FER I think the manifestation of His headship comes out in the world to come. It is all connected with the age to come, not exactly the thought of creation. Ephesians seems to connect it with the age to come.
JP You are alluding to the tenth verse of the first chapter of Ephesians, are you not?
FER Yes; and at the end of the chapter (verses 19 - 21), where it is also the coming age that is in view, and in the coming age it will be manifested that everything is under Christ. The coming age is the age of resurrection. That is the great point of the coming age. In the present age death dominates. Sin reigns by death.
GWH You will see life triumph in a scene of death.
FER Yes; victory. “O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law”. You get sin and the law and death as belonging to this age, but in the age to come it is righteousness and liberty and life; resurrection, do you not see?
JHC The thought to my mind was this, what [p. 256] the position of the assembly and the church would be in the coming age; of course Christ will be the manifested Head of everything then, but will it be through the church?
FER Yes, I think so. The assembly is His body. The assembly will be the vessel of light in the coming age. It says the nations walk in the light of it. The heavenly city will be the vessel of light in the coming age. “That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus”. It is in the church He shows forth the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
JHC That gives the church a very exalted place.
FER Yes. And so it has even now in this world. It is Christ’s body through which Christ is properly seen. At the close of this chapter you get it: “Christ in you, the hope of glory”.
JSA The idea in your remark is that it is through the body that a man expresses himself.
FER Yes. A man is known in his body. The body is the vessel. No one is known apart from his body. It is absolutely impossible. There is a sort of pretence going about in the world today, that of thought-reading; that is, to know a man otherwise than through his body, to know him in his thoughts.
CA hence you would say the church in the world to come will be the expression of what Christ is.
FER Yes. It will be the vessel through which Christ will be seen.
GAM Whatever comes out of Christ now comes out through the church.
FER Exactly.
GAM That is, the only display of Christ in this scene now is through the church.
FER Yes. If the church does not witness to Christ, nothing else does.
JA If He were known as Head there would be more [p. 257] of Him coming out.
FER Israel does not witness to Him now.
CA I suppose in the beginning of the Acts you get what the church ought to be as a witness of Christ.
FER Yes, it comes out there.
GWH In Revelation 3, we get what she is as a false witness.
FER I think the witness has become obscure, but the witness is really here.
GWH I was referring to Laodicea.
FER The witness is here but has become obscured. For instance, you get the thought of witness in Philadelphia in a kind of way, but it is very much obscured.
JSA I suppose until the church is actually taken out of the scene there must be a witness of some kind.
FER I suppose so. On account of all the divisions in christendom it makes the witness so obscure.
CA So that the church cannot cease to be a witness no matter how obscure it may be.
FER But it may be greatly obscured. There is no doubt about it.
GWH Referring to what Mr. A. said, you said once that God never leaves Himself without a witness.
FER No, I do not think He does. Only the witness may be greatly obscured. It is not obscured at all in Christ. He can speak of Himself as “the faithful and true witness”, but any other witness that has ever been here has been greatly obscured. Take Israel and the church.
CA Would you say on account of the church not holding Christ as Head she has become obscured?
FER Yes, I think so. The witness is to the Head.
GWH In chapter 3, of this epistle I suppose you get the church witnessing according to the mind of God. They are all characterised by love.
FER Not only by that, but the word of Christ dwelling in you richly in all wisdom. It is that which has to come out — wisdom. You cannot separate between the [p. 258] thoughts of wisdom and the Head. The word is to dwell in you richly in all wisdom. All the grace of Christ was to come out in the church, but I think the wisdom was to be there instead of philosophy.
CA Divine intelligence.
FER I think the intelligence is the effect of wisdom. I think Christ is wisdom and intelligence, really understanding in regard to christians. It is not that you get understanding and then wisdom, but you get wisdom and then understanding. You continually find that order, even in the book of Proverbs.
JP It is certainly the order of the apostle’s prayer in this chapter.
FER Yes; wisdom and understanding.
EW The last clause of verse 6, “The grace of God in truth”. What is the meaning of that?
FER Truth is a very important point because the grace of God is known to us in the way of truth. The grace of God is not known to us in the same way that it will be known in Israel and the world. It is known to us in the way of truth.
EW And what is the truth?
FER Christ is the truth, but I take it truth in the epistles is really a subjective thought. And even in regard of Christ, where Christ is spoken of as truth it is subjective. It is truth in us.
JSA Do you mean in such a passage as “I am the way, the truth, and the life?”
FER Yes; I think that is a subjective thought. What comes to us as light from God really becomes truth in us. The revelation of God is light, but when the revelation of God is accepted, when man is enlightened by the revelation of God, what came to him as light becomes true in him. Then do not you see the effect of truth is that the grace of God is made known to you in truth. The truth comes in really to put everything in order in you. Moral adjustment is brought about, and it is in that moral adjustment that [p. 259] you realise the grace of God.
CA Would you say you realise the grace of God through the word?
FER I think it is the truth.
GLA Can the grace of God be known apart from the truth?
FER I think it is the effect of the truth. I do not think we realise the grace of God till it has its effect in us by the truth.
JP And so there is, “Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts”.
FER Exactly. And that thought is taken up in Ephesians, “having your loins girt about with truth”. That means truth morally to be in the inward parts.
EW “As the truth is in Jesus”. You get that expression.
FER Yes; but that is what you have learnt. ‘As is true in Jesus’. The having put off the old man and having put on the new, which after God is created in righteousness and holiness of truth.
GWH What do you mean by moral adjustment? The setting apart from the present order of things?
FER That might effect it, but that is not what I would speak of as moral adjustment. It is the setting everything right in the affections.
CA Is that reconciliation?
FER Oh, no! I think grace has reached us in that way, not as it will reach Israel for outward blessing, though it will have the same effect in them. The grace has come in really to bring about moral readjustment in us, and it is in that moral adjustment that we realise grace.
GWH The Lord prays in John 17, “Sanctify them through thy truth”.
FER That is sanctification, but I think moral adjustment is a greater thought than sanctification. You get all the affections adjusted and put into their proper channel. What you see in this world is people with strong affection, but you will often find that affection comes out [p. 260] in those people in wicked directions. You find that in the woman of Samaria. There was a person capable of strong affection, but the affection was going out in a wicked way, and so it is with half the affection in the world. It is affection going out in a wicked way. Now adjustment comes in to direct affections into the divinely appointed channels. That is where you get moral adjustment, and that is the way the grace of God is to affect us, else we know nothing about the grace of God.
GWH I suppose in a way Mary Magdalene had experience of moral adjustment.
FER I do not know.
JP Does it not come out in what the apostle speaks of in speaking to these saints? He speaks of their faith in Christ Jesus, that is the light from this Person; but there is another thing, that is, love to all saints. That is the evidence of their moral adjustment.
FER That is the only evidence we can see in a kind of way. A man may say he loves God and loves Christ, but the only evidence is that he loves the saints.
ECE Would you not say when Christ was in the world everything in Christ was morally adjusted, and when there is an answer to that there is the moral adjustment.
FER I think the unconverted man cannot be adjusted.
EW It is an impossibility to adjust the old man.
FER Take the woman of the city who was a sinner. I think everything was put into moral adjustment with her. I have no doubt Christ was the light of God to her; that light exposed everything, but at the same time taking effect, coming in as truth it brought everything into moral adjustment. She was not going to revert to her previous course at all. I have no doubt that she loved God and loved Christ, and she loved the people of God, and so too in regard of everything else. That is, what you may call moral adjustment is brought about, and the [p. 261] affections are directed into divinely appointed channels where affections are directed properly.
JP So the Lord could say to her, “Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace”.
CHK Would you say that all this is wrought by the Holy Spirit?
FER Yes, because the Spirit is the truth. You must not leave truth out.
CHK One walking in the power of the Spirit, would not that be the natural result?
FER But you will not walk in the power of the Spirit apart from the truth. There is positive power in the truth.
EW Would you say that grace and truth are closely allied?
FER It says so. “Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ”.
JSA I think it is an interesting announcement to the woman of Samaria when the Lord says, “they that worship Him must worship him in spirit and in truth”.
CA Truth is given a very prominent place.
FER I think it is a wonderful help to us as to what truth really is, light from God in the soul. There has been a great misconception in christendom and among us as to what truth is. You get an assent to the word of God, but it has not become truth to us unless it is light from God wrought in our souls and then it becomes formative.
JSA The first thing that happened in the physical world after the light came in was the separation between light and darkness. The same is true morally, is it not?
FER Yes.
GWH The result is that we love the saints, and it is love in the Spirit, I suppose.
FER Quite so.
JP I think you said that Christ being presented as Head in this epistle necessitated reconciliation.
FER I think it is in that connection that God takes [p. 262] everything up — that everything is brought into divine complacency. That is the thought of reconciliation. That is the divine thought of it, that everything may be brought into divine complacency, and that is all brought about in Christ.
ECE In the age to come there will be a manifestation of that, an answer to all that is brought out in this chapter.
FER I think so.
ECE There is no answer to it now.
FER Only in the church.
ECE In what way will it become a subjective thing then?
FER In verses 18 to 22 evidently the reconciliation of all things is contemplated. “To reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven”. The vessel of reconciliation is there. Christ is the vessel of reconciliation. What it requires is for everything to be brought into reconciliation to Christ.
ECE I get it from what Mr. A. said about the light being separated from the darkness, that in one sense we have the separation. Now the idea of reconciliation implies a complete adjustment which does not exist today. In what way will it be brought about?
FER I think it will all be brought in in Christ. We get another thought coming out in connection with the Lord, that is, the subjugation of all evil. He has power to put down all evil, but then there is another thought, and that is subduing all things to Himself. Our bodies will be changed into the likeness of His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself; so you get the resurrection of the saints, then you get the subjugation of Israel. That is the separation which is brought about in the case of Israel. There will be the true Israel, and separation brought about, and thus separation among the nations, because all the nations are brought down to the valley of decision,
[p. 263] and they are all judged in a kind of way. What is manifestly and avowedly and evidently contrary to Christ comes under judgement, but all other is subdued, so the Spirit of God is poured out on all flesh. Christ is the Head of the nations, a light for the revelation of the gentiles, and He is the Head of the nations. Everything is brought into subjection, so it is in that way that every thing is brought into reconciliation. In the very fact of its being brought into subjugation to Christ it is brought into reconciliation. That is the way in which all will be effected, beyond all manner of doubt. You get on the one hand divine power and authority to put down all the evil, that is what avowedly and evidently opposes. That is the character of things where judgement comes in, but then all else is really brought into subjection.
ECE And in God’s view this moral adjustment has already been brought about in the believer.
FER It has been brought about if it has been brought about. That is God’s thought in regard to the believer, and the power to bring it about is there. Its being brought about in us depends on the place which the truth has in us. It is only brought about by the truth.
CA You were saying adjustment is brought about in the saints now morally, and in the age to come it is brought about literally.
FER It will be manifested in power. That is what God will bring about — the reconciliation of all things, things in heaven and things on earth. Not only things on earth but things in heaven. All are brought into divine complacency. All is to be maintained in unity. Christ becomes the common bond that will hold every part of the system together. He is before all things and by Him all things subsist. That is, they are held together. Christ is the common bond and everything will be held together in Christ, else the whole thing would be disjointed. Take the condition of Europe, for instance. You get a great many States in Europe, and you remember the great Napoleon, who was a type of antichrist, sought to subdue [p. 264] all these States to himself. He was bitterly opposed to England, and he thought of subduing Europe to himself and of bringing down England, but he did not quite succeed. Then the power of Napoleon dropped, and Europe went back to different States. You get countries like Germany and Russia, but then there is no common bond.
CA Christ will become the Sun of righteousness then.
FER He becomes the bond that holds all things together. The entire system is held together in unity. That is the divine thought, and if that be not true you must be content to go on with the world as it is, because whatever men may do they will never find anything to hold men together in a common bond.
GWH They may have union, but they will not have unity.
FER They may have union but they will not bring about unity. Then when they get antichrist, there is another great head in the world, and that is the great northern power; the great northern power in opposition to the antichrist. Antichrist will be a great power. He will exercise all the authority of the Roman emperor, but then there is another great power that will not be subject to the antichrist, and that is the power of the north, so it is a great mistake to suppose that antichrist is going to subdue all things to himself.
JP He will have a wonderful power within a given scope.
FER But at the same time there is also another great power on earth. But then when Christ comes the first thing that He deals with is Babylon. Babylon is broken to pieces at His coming, but after that He deals with the power on earth.
And it is the character of divine dealings that nothing is put right on earth till all is right in heaven. A good general would not move out his extremities till he had things right at his base. So it is in regard of the Lord. Till things are right in heaven He does not put things [p. 265] right on earth. That is all brought out in the Revelation. The first thing there is the catching up of the man-child to the throne, and the next thing is war in heaven, not war on earth, and the power of evil cast out of heaven and no place found for Satan there, and then he comes down to get a great time on earth and gives his power to the beast, but there is no more place for him in heaven. Michael and his angels fight against the devil and his angels, and there is no place found for him. Then the devil comes to earth in a great rage and then you get a terrific conflict here on earth. You get the binding together of the tares in bundles. You get the last phase of the great Roman power, and the harlot, and the power on earth and all that kind of thing. They are all engaged, but it soon comes to an end.
CA I was going to say that everything here is disjointed.
FER There is no power in the universe that can hold things together but Christ. That is what will mark the world to come. Every part of the system is held together in unity because Christ is the one bond. He is Head of the church, He is Head of the entire heavenly company. He is Head of the nations. He is Head of Israel. It is like a series of circles, one circle within another, but then Christ is the centre of every circle, because if you have a series of concentric circles one is the centre of all the others.
GWH And all the circles at that time will be in their proper relation to the centre. Referring to what you were saying, heaven is as badly off as earth is at this time.
FER No; that will not do. “Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven”.
GWH I was thinking there is to be war in heaven.
FER There is evil in heaven, but evil is not dominant, and it is dominant here upon earth, and that will be still more marked than it is now.
JSA There is a passage in Acts 3 about “the times of restitution of all things”, but it says a little earlier, “when [p. 266] the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, and he shall send Jesus”. It is a time when everything is brought into blessing and refreshment.
GWH Would you not say the heavens are defiled?
FER I think they are. There will not only be a new earth but a new heaven.
JHC What do you mean by the heavens?
FER I take it there is an unseen world, and that unseen world is spoken of as heaven, and then that unseen world is the abode of God, that is, the heaven of heavens. I take it the heavens is an expression used to convey to us the thought of the unseen world.
JHC What you might call the spirit world.
FER I do not know what you might call it, but it is the unseen world.
JHC I suppose it is inhabited by spirits, because we have good spirits and evil spirits.
FER Quite so.
GWH There is spiritual wickedness.
FER But we must not speak too much about it, because that is prying into the things that are unseen. Scripture speaks of them only in their relation to earth.
CA Is not Scripture taken up mostly with the earth?
FER I think it is, but then it does teach us this, that earth is affected largely by the influence of the heavens.
CA Then you get the expression “the kingdom of heaven”.
JSA And in the right state of things the earth and the heavens are in perfect accord. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, and in the world to come they are again in accord.
CA Would not that be reconciliation when they are in perfect accord?
FER I could not say that. Reconciliation really brings all things under Christ.
JHC The thought to my mind in speaking about the ages to come, a little while previously, was that of all [p. 267] these circles Christ will be the Head of each, but the nearest concentric circle will be the church.
FER That is true.
ECE Can we have a conception of the ages to come subjectively?
FER Scripture gives you light enough about it.
ECE It becomes an objective thought.
FER I think we can have an idea of what it will be subjectively.
PAES What would you say is the power by which Christ subjugates everything to Himself?
FER What is the power by which He subjugated you?
PAES Love.
FER Well, He has done it by some power. The church is a witness of what He can do. He is going to change these bodies of our humiliation and fashion them like unto the body of His glory according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself. And He is subjugating to God that which was disorderly and unruly and contrary and perverse. I daresay you were none too complacent.
JSA “Enemies in your mind by wicked works”.
ECE You spoke a little while ago about the readjustment of things.
FER I think man’s idea is not really unity, it is the holding of things down by some kind of iron power. The way in which Christ subjugates all things to Himself is different. The great thought of the head is wisdom — that is the idea in Scripture — and I think the way that Christ subjugates all things to Himself is by bringing every part of the system under His moral influence. That will be completely effected in the church and the heavenly company, and in the world to come heaven will exercise a most profound influence over earth, because there will be an immense body in heaven who will be completely in accord with Christ morally, and they will exercise a most profound influence on earth, and even on earth there will [p. 268] be a great company of people entirely subject to Christ. Israel will be subject to Christ, and there are other companies on earth who will be completely subject to Christ and they will exercise a most profound influence on earth. So too the nations are brought more or less under the influence of Christ. In that way Christ subjugates all things to Himself.
JSA If you get moral unity it will last, but if you get any other kind of unity it will not last. Many a man can see things wrong without being able to put things right.
ECE There is recognition of things being wrong around us.
CA Would you say that everything is brought into subjection through love? That would be a contrast to man, who would seek to bring things into subjection by law.
FER Yes; but they do not go to the root of the matter, because there are certain principles at work, and always will be at work; the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, which cannot be rooted out. Supposing everything in America were brought down to one common level, you could not root out the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, and all that sort of thing would soon bring about a change. What I can see at the same time is that Christ brings in an entirely overpowering influence. A vast deal will depend on heaven and the influence that heaven will exercise, but there will be an overpowering influence on earth; and there is another thing — the condition of things will be so entirely changed, that the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the pride of life will have very little scope.
EW Mr. S. asked what the power was that subjugated to Christ. Is it the same power that holds in subjection?
FER I do not think people in that day will go after statues and pictures and all that kind of thing. I do not think they will be less intelligent than they are now, but more intelligent; but intelligence will go in entirely [p. 269] different directions, and they will not run after the mere gratification of taste.
GMB Real intelligence will be dependent on regulated affection.
FER I think so. There will be great intelligence, but it will take moral lines.
GBM It could not take moral lines now because of the maladjustment of the affections.
FER Yes.
GWH I suppose the thing for us now is to increase in the knowledge of God.
FER And the apprehension of Christ as the centre of a system. Christ is the centre of a system; and then there is another important point, and that is what comes out strongly in this epistle, namely, to understand the ground on which God has placed everything, that is resurrection.
CA I suppose we would not get on far in our souls unless we are clear as to that point.
FER He is the first-born from the dead. If He is the first-born from the dead, everything must be placed on the ground of resurrection.
CA That in all things He might have the pre-eminence.
FER It is on the ground of resurrection.
CA Hence you would say God is working in that sphere now.
FER And all outside of that is on the ground of death.
ECE In regard to this question of art. Would you say that in itself it is not harmful?
FER But it all leads to the admiration of man, and people are taken up with genius, but the curious thing about genius is that it is something out of proportion.
CA Really there is nothing for the believer this side of resurrection.
FER No; but what I would like is for christians to see through these things. There is something morally [p. 270] out of gear where they do not. I would like to see a great many pictures, but then I would like moral pictures. I like things with some moral beauty, and there cannot be any moral beauty in the finest work that ever was painted. I would like to see a picture where there is perfect moral beauty.
CA And that is what God is looking for.
JHC I would like to ask before closing what do you understand by the power on earth in opposition to antichrist?
FER I think it is all the great power that the Lord crushes when He comes. It is the power of the Assyrian, and the power behind the Assyrian.