READINGS ON EPHESIANS (1)
READINGS ON EPHESIANS (1)
JT The idea of headship here would be more extended than simply that Christ is head of every man.
FER It is a different thought. One is what might be called necessity in a way, and the other is more counsel. Of necessity Christ is head of every man.
WM Do you think the idea of Christ being the head of the body is simply that saints have accepted His headship?
FER No. He is the divinely appointed head.
WM But being the divinely appointed head they have come into the good of His headship.
FER Yes.
WM It is not that He is head only to the saints?
FER No. His headship of every man involves the responsibility of man. His place as head of the body does not involve responsibility on the part of man generally.
JP Here I suppose it is more position in relation to the vast scheme of God’s counsels.
FER I think so. That is the connection in which the headship of the body comes in.
GR Is that the thought of head over all things to the church?
FER Yes, it is the accomplishment of Psalm 8. Headship evidently refers to all things being put under Christ; that is, everything being gathered up in one in Christ. That makes Him head over all things; His being head of every man is a necessary consequence of His having become man.
GR Does the thought of headship in Ephesians go further than in Psalm 8?
FER It brings in the additional thought of [p. 159] the church.
G.R. Things in heaven?
FER It says, He “gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”. It evidently brings in a thought additional to Psalm 8.
JP Of course, one can hardly say the church is in Psalm 8.
FER No, it is being head over all things according to Psalm 8, but it is as head over all things that He is head to the church; “Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”. Psalm 8 contemplated the Son of man, but not His body.
FC I suppose we get the thought of it in Adam and Eve. Adam was head over all things and head to Eve.
FER Yes, it is set forth there figuratively. He was head over the inferior creation, and then it was he was made head to his wife.
JP Her head was the one who was head over all things.
FER Yes, the effect of that was that it associated Eve with him in his headship over all things, and the same is true in regard to the church. It is associated with Christ in His headship over all things.
JP But the seeing the position of the church is in apprehending the position of the head.
FER Yes.
Ques What is the point of difference between headship in Ephesians and Colossians?
FER I should not think much difference. It does not take up so much in Colossians, the thought of head there is more the head of the body, the church.
Ques Then it goes on, that He is the first-born?
FER Yes, “The beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the pre-eminence”.
WM Do you not think Colossians gives us a higher view of the glory of Christ than Ephesians?
FER It presents Him more personally. It is not so much what He is appointed. Colossians does not speak of His being made this or that; He is [p. 160] it.
WM Would you think the association of the saints with Christ in Colossians would be at a higher point of view?
FER No, I would not think so.
JP It could hardly be so because we are marked out beforehand for sonship here, and you could not get anything higher than that.
WM The only reason I was thinking so is that Christ is presented as man in Ephesians, and as a divine person in Colossians.
FER But it has been said that our place in relation to God is greater than our place in relation to Christ.
WM I see, sonship.
FER We are brought into sonship by Jesus Christ to Himself. That is what the apostle begins with. Our relation to Christ, as man, is secondary to that. In our relation to God, in a way, we are with Christ; that is, He is the first-born among many brethren. We are sons with Him who is above; but our relation to Christ is as His body. It is not that you are with Him, but of Him, “Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all”. You could not conceive anything greater than being the sons of God. He has predestinated us to be that before God.
Ques When Christ delivers up the kingdom according to 1 Corinthians 15, what will remain so far as we are concerned, except sonship?
FER I suppose it will never alter our relationship to Christ.
FC You mean as brethren or as the bride?
FER I think as the church, because even beyond the millennium, the heavenly Jerusalem, the bride the Lamb’s wife, comes down from God out of heaven.
JP The opening of Revelation 21.
FER Yes.
JP That is after the kingdom is delivered up.
FER Yes. “I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
[p. 161] and there was no more sea. And I John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband”.
GR Is not the same thought in the end of Ephesians 3, “Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages”?
FER I think so.
JP It would be impossible to have a larger scope than in Ephesians, as everything is set in the light of God’s counsels.
JT Do you think the first chapter gives you the thought of the holiest of all?
FER What I think is, that if you had not some idea of the holiest of all you could not understand this chapter. If you had not some apprehension of what Christ is for God you could not understand the heading up in one of all things in Christ. The one depends upon the other.
GWH In that respect is there any connection between this chapter and Hebrews 10?
FER I do not think there is any particular connection. In Hebrews 10 you go in, and in Ephesians it is the coming out to survey “the breadth, and length, and depth, and height”. There is a certain line of truth undoubtedly which tends to lead you in, but then the point is that, having gone in, you should come out.
GWH This chapter is a sort of moral consequence.
FER It is a consequence of the holiest, you could not understand this chapter unless you apprehended what is in the holiest.
JT Do you not think what we get here is pretty much what is to be apprehended there?
FER It is rather what is apprehended if you have been into the holiest. But then it is outside of the holiest. For instance, as to the heading up in one of all things; the all things do not belong to the holiest, but you belong to the holiest and you look at them from the holiest.
JT I understood the testimony regarding all these things now was necessary in order to apprehend [p. 162] it.
FER They are not displayed, but entering the holiest is the qualification to understand everything on the part of a christian. So far as I understand it, entering the holiest is the qualification for the service of God, and then in that way it is our qualification for testimony. I do not think any one can carry things out according to God except as coming from the holiest.
GWH Do you get the two things, the holiest and the land, in this chapter?
FER I think the “all things” refer more to the land of promise, the heading up in one of all things, but the great thing is to know the One who is the head.
JP You mean by the holiest, the apprehension of Christ in what He is to God.
FER Yes, to God and for God; according to God. I think the point is to apprehend Christ as the One by whom God can accomplish all the counsels of His will according to His glory.
JT But that includes all that which will be brought in for God.
FER You must apprehend that, but all things do not have their place in the holiest. God must look at them from the holiest, and so, too, Christ, but they are not all included in the idea of the holiest.
JT What is included in the holiest?
FER Well, I see the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat.
EW Do you see the glory there?
FER It is all glory; there is that to be said, we see the effulgence of God there.
EW I mean the two things in the holiest typically, the ark and the cloud of glory resting on it.
FER There is the effulgence of God in the holiest. You get something of the idea on the mount of transfiguration. Christ was there and there was the excellent glory. The apostles in a way entered the holiest when they were on the mount; they saw Christ when “he received from God the Father honour and glory, when [p. 163] there came such a voice to Him from the excellent glory”. That gives you an idea of the holiest.
JT Does the holiest not convey the thought of the testimony of God as to everything whilst things are not yet displayed?
FER It is the testimony of God in the sense of Christ as the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat. What I apprehend in the ark of the covenant, is that Christ is not only the covenant but that in which it is held; and it is on that that the mercy-seat is founded, by the ark of the covenant God is able to put Himself in communication with man. That is what I think is set forth in the holiest.
CA I suppose it is that, in order that men may apprehend what God is for them.
FER I think it is more that we may apprehend what Christ is for God, that is the great point in regard to the holiest.
EW The glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ, is that the holiest?
FER I think so, the glory of the Lord. He is the ark of the covenant, and the mercy-seat.
JT When the apostle says here, “Having made known unto us the mystery of his will”, do you not think that, there, it is not yet manifest, but to be known and apprehended?
FER It is to be known, but the point of entering the holiest is that you may apprehend the One in whom all that is to be carried out. You contemplate Christ according to the glory of God. I only judge that because that was what was found in the holiest.
JT That is all that the eye could rest upon, not that there were not other things there.
FER I think so, but what was there? The great point was to ascertain how God was going to make righteousness the rule of the moral universe.
JT The testimony of the rights of God was there.
FER I think [p. 164] so.
WM I suppose the tables of stone set forth typically that Christ would give law to the universe.
FER Yes, the law was in the heart of Christ, that He might make the law of God be the law of the universe, “The isles shall wait for his law”.
JT When they went over Jordan the testimony was, the ark of the covenant of the God of all the earth.
FER Quite so.
GWH When you apprehend Christ, what He is for God, do you not apprehend Him as the One in whom God has effectuated all His counsels and thoughts, and they will soon be manifested?
FER You apprehend Christ as the One by whom God will put Himself in connection with everything.
GWH Would you say that was the testimony which Mr. T. was referring to?
FER The testimony was the ark; the ark is the testimony, and that is typical of Christ. Christ says, “Thy law is within my heart”. I have no doubt Christ is the testimony, He is the ark of the covenant.
GR Is not that intimated in that the tables were put into the ark after the first tables were broken, that is, God could not put Himself into touch with man as man?
FER And therefore He had to put Himself in touch with man in another Man; he puts Himself in touch with man by Christ in order that the law of God might be the law of the universe.
GR I was thinking of David as a sad contrast, “Although my house be not so with God”. He could not do it.
FER Quite so. Israel failed and then comes in the ark, and the ark of the covenant is placed in the holiest.
GR God will put Himself in touch with man.
FER And not only so, but you get the ark of the covenant. All is founded on the ark of the covenant, the righteousness of God is established in the ark of the covenant. Hence it is that man may be brought into the [p. 165] covenant. The ark of the covenant would not mean much if man were not brought into the covenant.
WM I suppose in the meantime the holiest is a kind of education for saints before the time of manifestation and display.
FER It is that we should get the apprehension of Christ before Christ is manifested in glory; you can get acquaintance with Christ before Christ comes out; when He comes out we shall come out with Him; and it would not be very much good coming out with Him if we had not acquaintance with Him now.
WM So I suppose in a sense there will be no holiest in the world to come.
FER I think there will be. You get this expression, the Lord prays, “Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me”. They are to be with Him to behold His glory. I take it that is the holiest.
GR Is that expressed in verses 9 to 12 of this chapter, “the mystery of his will”?
FER The mystery of His will is the heading up of all things in Christ.
GR We learn there what God’s purpose is.
FER We learn the One in whom God can carry out His purpose, that is the great thing in the holiest.
RJR If we get acquaintance with Christ and behold His glory, is not that entering the holiest?
FER It is in the holiest you behold Him; it belongs to the holiest; the ark of the covenant and the mercy-seat were in the holiest.
CA How do you connect verses 10 and 12 of this chapter?
FER I would not connect the 10th and 12th verses; I would connect 10, 11 and 12. It says, “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ”.
JP That is, verse 10 is a statement of what God is [p. 166] going to do, and verse 11 shows how we are brought into it, so that we should be to the praise of His glory.
FER Evidently, verse 12 hangs on verse 11, as verse 11 hangs on verse 10. This question of the holiest is a very important one. There is no doubt that the thoughts of people have been more or less vague and uncertain in regard to the holiest.
FC Do you think if we were habitually in the good of the holiest it would be a very natural thing to pass into the world to come?
FER I think so, because we would see everything from that point of view. It is no good attempting to contemplate the world to come unless you get an apprehension of the One in whom that world to come is established. How is it to be all held in unity according to the glory of God? That is the point we want to find out and we discover that in the holiest.
JT And do you think in a sense that always remains a sort of secret?
FER It remains a secret to all but the church. The universe will see the effect of the working out of it, but the secret belongs now to the church.
JT Then verse 10 is what will be made public.
FER Yes, it will be public that all are gathered up in one in Christ; but the secret of Christ, and of how everything can be held in Him to God’s glory properly belongs to those who get education in the holiest, and the holiest is not entered in a moment; I mean the apprehension of Christ from that point of view is not gained in a moment. It is a tremendous thing.
JA Does not Christ’s presence in the holiest make a place for us?
FER We only go there to contemplate, but it is not our place. Never a word is spoken in the holiest. You simply contemplate.
WM You would admit that Mary was a simple illustration of it. She did not speak.
FER She was, in a way. I do not think anybody [p. 167] speaks in the holiest. It is a place for contemplation where we are lost in wonder.
GWH I suppose the effect was that you see Mary in John 12 very intelligent.
Ques Is the idea of it, “we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father”?
FER It is hardly the holiest, but it gives you some idea of it. We take up these things comparatively lightly now, but to take up all the threads of a kingdom, to understand what is right in the kingdom, and to know how to maintain it in every part for the good of the community, is no small education. For anybody taking any leading part in politics it requires a great education to understand what would be for the good of the kingdom; how things are to be ordered in order that security may be maintained within, and the proper relations of the kingdom without. Well, but when you take into account not only a kingdom, but a universe! How is the universe to be held together? How is security going to be maintained there and foes entirely set aside? I think all that has to be learnt.
FC I suppose the only place where we can give expression to what we have learnt in the holiest is in the assembly.
FER Yes, you do not find the holiest there unless you bring it.
WLP That would be the state of mind in the individual.
FER Exactly.
GR What is the idea in “having a great priest over the house of God, let us approach with a true heart”?
FER I think the great priest is the intermediary over the world to come.
JT So to speak, it is on our side.
GR And this is through the veil.
FER We can only go in by the death of Christ. You cannot know what God is except by the death of Christ, but you get there the glory of God unveiled; the flesh of [p. 168] Christ was the veil, and the glory of God is unveiled, and you can apprehend the glory of God through the rent veil. When the Lord was here upon earth the veil was not rent; but now God has come out in order that we may go in.
GR I was wondering if there was any thought of our appropriating the death of Christ, that flesh cannot go in.
FER That is true, but that is incidental to it. The idea of the rending of the veil is on the divine side, for God to come out; and God having come out, in the unveiling of His glory, we can go in; but then flesh does not go in. I think in that way there must be the appropriation of the death of Christ, because flesh never can contemplate the glory of God. It is only by the Spirit.
GR That is, we must go in in the same way God has come out.
FER Exactly, it is by the death of Christ that God has come out, and by the death of Christ we go in. We cannot go in by the flesh, only by the Spirit. It is only by the Spirit that we apprehend the glory of God. Where man was ended the glory of God shone out.
GR Is the body washed with pure water the practical side?
FER It is being cleansed from the defilement of the world.
WM I suppose in the world to come, while great benefits will accrue to the earthly people, they will not enter the holiest?
FER No. There is a universe held together for the glory of God in a Man; and there is a Man great enough to hold a universe together in harmony for God’s glory. That is what the ark of the covenant means.
WM We learn that now.
FER The covenant is God’s engagement with man, and Christ is not only the ark of the covenant, but the covenant. The Sun of righteousness is the covenant.
JT And do you think the idea of the covenant would take in even the covenant [p. 169] with Noah?
FER I think it takes up everything, but it is purely moral.
JT Do you not think that God will make good His engagements with Christ?
FER I think so.
WM And when you speak of Christ as the covenant do you mean He is the expression of God’s mind toward man?
FER Quite so, and the mind of God is expressed and established in Christ. For instance, He is the vessel of mercy and the One who communicates the Spirit. It is the disposition of God, set forth in Christ on behalf of man. Therefore, all that Christ has to do in regard to it is to subdue to Himself.
WM So one can easily see the suitability of His being a study for saints.
FER I think so.
WLP Is there not a difference as to our pathway down here? Do we enter into the holiest in our pathway down here, or is there any special time?
FER I think it is an exercise for any one who cares to go in. It was a saying of Mr. Darby’s that there were many christians in the world who enjoy the light which has reached them in the gospel but who are never exercised to go in to the place where that light came from.
WLP That leads you to the assembly.
FER I think so. It is one thing to enjoy the announcement of Christ; it is another to be exercised to go in to where the light came from; that is the holiest.
WM Do the babes in John give you an illustration of one, and the fathers of the other?
FER The babes enjoyed the revelation of God, and the fathers the One from the beginning.
JT What would be the distinction between the holiest and the temple?
FER I would rather take up the figure of the tabernacle in connection with the holiest. The temple is [p. 170] not in the epistle to the Hebrews. I think one can understand things better in connection with the tabernacle.
JT I was only thinking of the temple in Corinthians, “ye are the temple of God”.
FER Yes, but the tabernacle appears to be a greater thought than the temple.
GWH Is the tabernacle a moral idea, typical of the universe?
FER Yes, more so than the temple; the pattern of things in the heavens.
JT I only wanted to know what the significance of the temple is.
FER It was set up on the pattern of the tabernacle. All the great principles of the tabernacle reappeared in the temple. The temple was a fixed permanent building when the kingdom was established.
JT The Lord’s body was the temple.
FER Yes.
WM In regard to the world to come it says, there is no temple in the city.
FER Yes. There will be a temple here, I take it. Ezekiel seems to give you that idea. In the heavenly city, the city is the temple.
GWH Would you say that in the world to come we have the temple and that will give way in the eternal age to the tabernacle?
FER The heavenly city is the temple.
WM It says there is no temple therein, that indicates it is a temple itself.
FER Quite so. It says in Ephesians 2, “In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord”. The church is the temple. There is no need of a temple within a temple.
JT The Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are said to be the temple in the city.
FER Quite so.
GR Is it that the church learns everything in Christ, and the world learns everything through the church?
FER I think so.
WLP I was going to ask whether being changed from glory to glory is a soul contemplating the wonders of the holiest?
FER It is the effect of it, “beholding ... the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory even as by the Spirit of the Lord”.
EW Is that preparation for the heavenly city?
FER I should think so. In a sense we are prepared.
WM I suppose there is something analogous to the holiest toward the nations, because they learn from the church.
FER Yes, “That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus”. The kings of the earth bring their honour and glory to the heavenly city, and the nations walk in the light of it.
JT In Revelation 11 the temple is spoken of as coming into view and the ark of the covenant is found there.
FER Yes.
JT Do you think that is the church?
FER No, I think it is Christ. The ark of the covenant is Christ.
JT I mean the temple.
FER I do not know, but the temple of God was opened in heaven and the ark of the covenant was there. I would not like to identify that with the church.
WM The ark of the covenant being seen in heaven would be a guarantee for stability.
FER That is it. Everything was secured according to God.
JT And God was reverting to what He had engaged Himself to.
FER I think so.
CA Would you say that the church is the temple at the present time?
FER Except in the sense in which the apostle speaks in 1 Corinthians 6, “know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you?”
CA He speaks of them individually, does he not?
FER He speaks of them collectively first and afterwards individually, “If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are”.
GR Was it not said in Chicago, that when Christ was here He was the temple? The oracles were there, and after He has gone the oracles are found in the church.
FER Yes, because the Spirit of God is there, and the Spirit of truth is the oracle at the present time.
GR And that would be fully seen when the city comes out.
FER She has “the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious”. There cannot be any doubt that in the world to come the church, as the heavenly city, will exercise the greatest possible influence, because it will be a vast body, and in it there will not be found one single trace of lawlessness. That is what is brought to our minds in the measurements of the heavenly city. The wall was measured by the angel; the details of the measurement are given. What that brings to my mind is that there will not be a trace of lawlessness.
GR That seems to give great importance to our learning what is set forth in Christ now.
WLP Does the world to come take in also what is commonly called the millennium? On the earth there will be sin, but it will be judged immediately.
FER But the earth will come completely under the influence of heaven. To a large extent men are under the influence of heaven now; that is, of evil influences from heaven. There is not any doubt about that, principalities and powers are in the heavenlies; but in the world to come the church will exercise the greatest possible influence from heaven. It will be in the presence of the entire universe an intelligent witness to the exceeding riches of God’s grace. Every part of the church will abide [p. 173] in its own place. There will not be a bit of lawlessness; all will be in attachment, not one person out of gear, not a trace of the flesh there; all will be maintained in unity; all will be transparent, and the divine nature shine out in all.
WLP That is how it will be, “To the praise of the glory of his grace”.
FER Quite so.
JP It would be a wonderful thing now to find twenty saints in one place perfectly in gear; but what will it be when all the saints are found that way?
FER See the vastness of it, all bears the measure of the angel.
CA Do you get an idea of it in the beginning of the Acts when the church was first established?
FER Just for a moment.
WM You get an instance in Luke 15 and 16 of people respectively under the influence of heaven and hell.
FC How do you connect John 2: 19 with what you were saying, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up?”
FER He spoke of the temple of His body. All the light of God at that moment on the earth was in Christ. The oracles of God were there.
FC I mean the raising up again, does it refer to resurrection?
FER Yes, Christ is the temple now, the church is the reproduction of Christ by the Spirit. You cannot separate the church from Christ.
JT That is the force of the body.
FER Yes, in that way it is that you are Christ’s body.
WM And that is why the house is the sphere of salvation.
FER Because Christ is here.
JT When you were talking about every bit of the church being in accord with Christ in the future, I fancy we have been taking account of the church too much as [p. 174] a concentrated thing.
FER The church will be a vast body, but there is no guarantee but that those who compose the church may be sent hither and thither. We cannot tell where they will be sent.
JT That is what I thought you had in mind.
FER I cannot say; it may be so.
WM Would you gather that from the fact that angels were sent hither and thither in connection with this present system and we may be the messengers of good in that time?
FER I think it possible.
JT It seems to me a wonderful place the saints are to have.
FER The theory is about all we have thought of.
OL There were many princes in Babylon, but they were all under one rule. Is there any probability of our reigning with Christ that we may be distributed as you said before, as a sort of princes, rulers?
FER One is to be over five cities and another over ten and another over one.
OL The same thing we find in the time of Daniel.
FER Yes.
GWH That does not refer to the Jews in the world to come?
FER No, it is the servants, one is set over five, another over ten and another over one city. You may be set over ten; if you are, you will exercise a great influence over the ten cities. So, too, one set over five cities will exercise a great influence over five cities.
GWH It depends on how you exercise your responsibility now.
FER I think so, largely.
JMD What do you mean by servants?
FER It is a time of service now; it will be a time of reigning then.
JP It is a question of “Well done, thou good and faithful servant”.
JMD Every member of [p. 175] the body can serve.
FER Yes.
WLP The Corinthians were not in their proper place.
FER The great point is serving; and they were reigning as kings without the apostles. In that day it will be ruling. Ruling is exercising moral influence; that is the idea. The idea people have of ruling is a king sitting on a throne; that is not the idea in Scripture.
WM It is not arbitrary rule.
FER It is not that kind of rule. The sun rules. How does it rule?
GWH You were saying that each one set over a city or a number of cities will influence that city or give character to that city. Is it because he takes character from Christ?
FER Exactly, he has taken character from Christ in His absence and in that time will give character to the cities.
OL They come to feast with the King once in a while.
FER Yes, they are to sit at His table in His kingdom. I have no doubt the twelve apostles will exercise a very profound influence as regards Israel; they are to sit on twelve thrones judging the tribes of Israel.
JP Do you not think we have been very much hindered in apprehending these things by certain materialistic thoughts in connection with the symbols that are employed?
FER I think so. We have taken them up too literally, instead of regarding them as symbols.
WLP How far does that apply to brethren; do you apply it to brethren?
JT To God’s people generally who have paid any attention to these things.
WM So it has been taken up as though our occupation would be playing harps, etc.
PH Revelation 22: 3, “And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in [p. 176] it; and his servants shall serve him”. Has that any reference to that?
FER They will serve Him, and He will serve them too. We shall go wherever we are sent, you may depend upon it. It is the key to me of how everything can be affected in the world to come, that the church is the great vessel of divine influence. Suppose you had in the world at the present time a perfect kingdom where everything was maintained perfectly within, and where there was such strength and power that it could not be assailed from without; that is, a kingdom governed according to perfect principles of righteousness and equity; good maintained, and no room for evil, and at the same time such power there that it could not be assailed by enemies without. Do you not think that it would have a most profound effect on the world? Other kingdoms would be ashamed of the way in which they go on grabbing, and all that kind of thing. Now when you think of the world to come, what will be the effect of the heavenly city?
JP I was thinking you were giving a rough sketch of what it will be, because, take Isaiah 11, and all those features you have mentioned come out there.
FER Yes, the Old Testament pictures how Israel will be on the earth; that is, a kingdom ordered in righteousness and entirely according to God. Perfect security within, and such a power there that they cannot be assailed by any enemy without.
JP And it says, “to it shall the Gentiles seek”.
FER Exactly, and it goes on to say, “and his rest shall be glorious”.
OL Being one with Christ as He is with the Father, does it not mean that we shall be one company together, that the world may know that He has sent Him, one in spirit even as Christ shows out the Father by the operation of the Spirit?
FER The Lord prays, “And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they be [p. 177] made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me”. The church will be a well-furnished witness in that day. I wish one could make the truth more distinct and plain; I have often thought of how is God going to bring about the world to come. I mean the tremendous change that is involved in regard of all we know. Do you know anything of the discordant elements in this world? How is God going to bring about the world to come, so that everything shall be according to His glory and in unity? I have often raised that question in my mind. The explanation of it to a large extent is the heavenly city; that is, the church, and the immense influence which the church will exercise, because the church is composed of a vast company where there will not be a trace of lawlessness, all having part in the divine nature, so that the divine nature may shine out through them.
WM Evil will be ashamed and afraid to show itself.
FER I think so, just as if you could get a perfect commonwealth in this world.
GR Especially if you could send out some from that kingdom to rule others.
FER Quite so. That they might be able to go hither and thither and no one be able to do them hurt.
GR I was thinking of that in Psalm 72, “The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills by righteousness”. The big and the little rulers will be righteous.
FER It will bring it by righteousness.
FC I had thought of that state of things being brought in by judgement.
FER But judgement will do nothing in that way.
FC I can see the force of what you say..
GR But I suppose there will be judgement at the introduction.
FER God never interferes in judgement until evil has assumed a very definite head. That is; until lawlessness has come out and expressed itself in a very definite head,
[p. 178] in such a shape that it is impossible for God to go on with it. When that comes to pass then it is that God interferes.
FC That would be more clearing away.
FER Yes.
JSA He purges out of His kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity.
FER “Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father”. They shine forth as the sun to exercise a moral and beneficent influence on the whole scene.
JP You could not have a figure better than that when you think of the influence of the sun. We talk about man’s power, but think of the influence of the sun.
FER It is, “The righteous”, not a trace of lawlessness.
EW Do not we get that in connection with Israel, “Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children, whom thou mayest make princes in all the earth”?
FER They will exercise influence. Influence will be given from the top, from Christ, and will work out through the church and Israel to the boundaries of the universe. That is how God will affect things.
GWH I suppose it is that the saints might be in the light of what you are speaking, that the apostle prays for them in this chapter.
FER I think so. The great point is to contemplate the position of the church in regard to all that is to come.
CA You said the place from which you view all these things is the holiest.
FER You enter the holiest to learn the One in whom all these things can be brought to pass.
JP I would that we might get that point in our souls, because I think there is a vast difference between contemplating Christ, and having the mind taken up with this, that or the other, however true it may be.
FER I think so, the holiest is one of the least understood things there is.