READINGS ON ROMANS (2)
READINGS ON ROMANS (2)
FER I think the test of a divine principle is its application under all conditions. You see certain circumstances and dispensations change, but a principle that is really true must apply at all times, else I think it is not true. A principle is tested in that way, but the truth must apply at all times and under all conditions.
WM To what do you refer?
FER I was referring to what came before us this morning in connection with the righteousness and power of God. These principles must obtain under all circumstances. They may not be apparent, but under all conditions they must be really the foundation and groundwork of divine dealings.
JP I should think that the righteousness of God, while it could not be said to be manifested before Christ came, still there is a statement that the law and the prophets bore testimony to it.
FER I think it was witnessed to, but then the climax of things is not in christianity. We get the climax of things in the world to come.
JP By “the world to come” you do not mean heaven, do you?
FER No; heaven forms in a sense part of the world to come, but heaven is not the world to come. The world to come takes in both heaven and earth, “things in heaven, and things in earth”. You get the expression in the epistle to the Ephesians, and in Psalm 8, that is what I mean when speaking of the world to come. “That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him”. So that [p. 216] the thought of the world to come must take in both heaven and earth. They are to be gathered together in one in Christ.
JP And you spoke of that as the climax.
FER Yes; I take it the dispensation of the fulness of times is the end of divine ways when God will come out in glory; not simply in testimony, as now, but then He will come out in glory; that is, in the display of Himself; and the principles which will then come out will be righteousness and power — righteousness on man’s behalf; and power on man’s behalf as against enemies. That is what Scripture speaks of as the victory, “thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory”.
JP And then of course faith will not have the place it has now. It has a place now because God has come out in the way of testimony.
FER Hence faith is essential, but then it will not be a dispensation of faith because things in some way or other will be made true publicly and for sight.
GWH Faith has to do with unseen things.
FER Exactly; that is, with God’s testimony. Unseen things are known to us by testimony only. They are not imagination.
WM I suppose testimony in the ways of God always precedes display.
FER I think that principle comes out in the prophets. In one of the prophets it says that Jehovah would do nothing except He made it known to His servants the prophets (Amos 3: 7.)
GWH I suppose in the world to come there will be the display of that which is now hidden and of which we are in the light now.
FER We are in the light of it because the report has come down. We have the report by the Spirit. It has come to us and we have believed the report. You get that thought in Isaiah 53. The question is raised there, “Who hath believed our report?” The apostle Paul takes that up in Romans 10 and applies it to the Jew because the Jew was [p. 217] so unbelieving that he did not believe the report, but the gentile did.
WM And these things are now reported by the Holy Spirit sent down from heaven.
FER So it says in that same tenth chapter of Romans you cannot call on Him of whom you have not heard; you must hear by a preacher. It takes up that expression, “Who hath believed our report?” Without a report there is no ground for faith.
JSA I suppose faith properly speaking has to do with things that can only be received in that way.
FER Yes. I daresay a great many here this afternoon have not been to England, but they do not doubt there is such a place as England; now there is no faith in that, because if they had means and opportunity they could verify it. That is not faith. By faith you accept things you cannot possibly verify, but you have the report of them by the Spirit. For instance, how could you find out that Christ is at the right hand of God? But that is what we believe. We cannot prove that He is there. The proof that He is there is the presence of the Spirit.
GWH Credence has to do with things you can verify.
FER Yes; we believe all sorts of things and have no doubt about them, but that is not faith. The point of faith is you believe things you cannot possibly verify, but which have come to you by the testimony of God.
GWH So that faith is divine light in the soul.
WM I suppose the belief as to creation is a good instance of faith. No man ever saw God make the worlds.
FER And a man with all his cleverness cannot see the principle which lay underneath creation. “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God”. That brings in a moral element and man cannot see that. In what God created there was a kind of figure of moral things because they were created by the word of God, and in a certain sense the word of God underlies the ways of God in Christ. It was not simply a material consideration in creation.
GWH Is then “the world to come” a moral idea?
FER Undoubtedly, not a material idea; it is a scene and state of things in which God will be displayed in righteousness and power. That is moral.
GWH Then I suppose no sooner had sin come into the present world than God began to speak of the world to come.
FER Not only to speak of it, but to work in view of it.
GWH And Abel’s sacrifice had that in view.
FER Yes; it contained the first principle of the world to come. So too the translation of Enoch, and Noah passing through the flood. They all had the world to come in view. So too the promises to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. So too the deliverance of Israel out of Egypt, and their being brought provisionally into the promised land, and the bringing in of Rahab; all had reference to the world to come.
GWH This chapter looks on to that.
FER Yes; the important point in regard to it is this, that the test of a principle is its applicability under all conditions. If you take what we had before us this morning, the righteousness and the power of God, strictly speaking they belong to the world to come. But then if you go back to Abraham, the promises to him were made on that ground. Abraham was justified by faith; that is, on the ground of divine righteousness, and God made Himself known as the ‘Almighty’, but that is undoubtedly connected with power; and when God took up Israel they were to become witnesses of the righteousness of God and to be the vessel of God’s power in the world.
Well now, we spoke of that this morning, and how all failed, and now in Christ you get the righteousness of God established in redemption and at the same time the power of God is set forth in the Lord Jesus Christ raised from the dead. When you pass on to the time of glory then it is you get the display of God in righteousness and power publicly, that is, God will have His full [p. 219] rights in the world to come. Everything will be put under Christ, and at the same time Christ will be the vessel of divine power and every enemy will be subdued. Death is swallowed up in victory, Satan is cast into the abyss, and the sin of the world is taken away. All power contrary to God is annulled.
WM In the meantime the lordship of Christ is realised by faith.
FER Yes; what is Christ to us? What we apprehend of Christ really is the establishment of divine righteousness, and at the same time He is the vessel of divine power so that we can be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. God has raised Christ from the dead in order that He might be the vessel of divine power, and He is the vessel of divine power to us.
JSA Will the world to come ever produce anything higher than christianity?
FER I do not think it will. It will be a remarkable time, because even the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord, “all the earth shall be filled with the glory of the Lord”. That was said as early as Moses. Well, it is a great point if we get it clearly before us, that Christ is the mercy-seat to declare God’s righteousness. You see we apprehend in Christ the rights of God having their fullest place in regard to us and at the same time we can speak of our Lord Jesus, because He was delivered for our offences and raised again for our justification. “If we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead”.
WM As the righteousness of God He is our Lord.
FER Yes. Really God’s righteousness is declared. Apparently God is tolerating lawlessness in every direction, and if we did not see it in Christ, we cannot understand God’s ways at all. People call themselves agnostics, saying that God cannot be known, therefore they are perfectly defiant of divine rights, and are as lawless as ever they like. If men were not lawless do you think they would become the proprietors of millions of money? Men want to rival the influence of [p. 220] God.
JP You do not think there will be any millionaires in the millennium.
FER I do not think so. I do not think they are at all according to God, and I am not quite sure that they will not be the ruin of man.
GWH In Psalm 14 it says, “The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God”. I suppose he will not recognise authority.
FER That is very well, but he has said it in his heart. He says, “There is no God”. That is what he wants. It is a very old saying that the wish is father to the thought, and the thought is what he wishes. He does not wish any God, and therefore he says, “There is no God”.
GWH I suppose that is the condition of the natural heart of every man.
FER Yes; and of people in the present day. It is a very subtle day, and there is a sort of pretension to respect God as the author of the universe, but at the same time to deny revelation. People will admit there is a God in the universe, but they say there is no revelation; and not only no revelation, but the agnostic says there cannot be any revelation, so that you are left in that way completely in the dark as to what God is morally. For supposing it is true that God has given birth to the laws of the universe, there is no gainsaying for a moment that the world is a scene of moral confusion. Therefore they say that the laws which God has established have not prevented confusion. I think a man must be insane who is prepared to accept that.
GWH I suppose before Christ came there might have been some excuse for such a thing, but now God is fully revealed and there is no excuse.
FER But now the point is that God is fully revealed. They try to get rid of the revelation on rational principles. If on rational principles you can get rid of the revelation there is a good deal achieved, and man may be as lawless as ever he [p. 221] likes.
WM I suppose the acme of lawlessness comes out in intellectual men.
FER It does not come out in a gross way in them, but they claim the most unbounded licence for the human mind.
WM So he is the antichrist that denies the Father and the Son.
GWH I suppose the antichrist will have a most wonderful mind.
FER I think he will be a great diplomatist. I think he will be a man who will exhibit an extraordinary power, making use of the forces down here; able to control men because he exercises all the authority of the first beast before him. A man must be clever to do that.
I do not know whether we are all clear as to what has been done before us, that is, the declaration of God’s righteousness in Christ and at the same time the setting forth of God’s power. That is what has come to pass in Christ.
JP And you mean by the righteousness of God, the rights of God in mercy on the ground of redemption.
FER Quite so. On that everything will have to stand as far as man is concerned, so that the apostle says in the epistle to the Hebrews, “Ye are come unto mount Zion”, that is, the rights of God in mercy.
JSA Then the present moment between this world and the world to come is a very remarkable one, because all that is established for faith, and yet God is dealing with things here which are quite contrary to it, and that brings in the gospel, “The accepted time”.
FER It is a great moment for man in that way.
WM So that instead of simply preaching judgement it is a declaration of the righteousness of God. That gives birth to the expression, “therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith”.
FER Yes; then it goes on to say that the righteousness of God which is toward all and upon all them that believe but it is toward all.
JA “By one righteousness [or, the righteousness of one]”. I will ask you to explain that.
FER It is redemption. It is one act of righteousness on the part of Christ, that Christ had accomplished redemption, and in that way He has established divine rights. Therefore through one righteousness toward all men, grace is toward all men unto justification of life.
Now we come in chapter 5 to the consequence of it, I mean, to the fruits which come to us of the knowledge of the righteousness and power of God. You know the righteousness and the power of God; the knowledge of them is a tremendous thing for us, that is, the knowledge of Christ is an important thing to us, but then the knowledge of Christ means the knowledge of the righteousness and of the power in Christ, and that is a tremendous thing to us. And we get the consequence of it in chapter 5.
WM Then do you look on chapter 3 and 4 as merely giving you the light of these things on the part of God in order that He might be known, and the consequence, as coming in in chapter 5?
FER Yes; the consequence of knowing Christ, and in that way of what God has declared in Christ. You get the effect in chapter 5.
WM Do we not get some consequences in chapter 3?
FER No; I do not think so. I think chapters 3 and 4 in a kind of way are the setting forth of God. It is the divine side.
WM “That he might be just, and the justifier”.
FER Exactly. The consequences come out in chapter 5. You get the “we” coming in in that chapter pretty much, and the other is what He has done.
JSA The first thing is peace.
FER Yes; the chapter brings out pretty fully the terms on which we can be with God, and the terms on which God can be with us, because now we have to do with the living God, who has declared His righteousness in redemption, and His power in the resurrection of Christ; and in chapter 5 you get the unfolding of the [p. 223] terms on which He sees fit to be with us. I have no doubt all these things that come out in chapter 5 will really be made good in the world to come. Everything that comes out in chapter 5 will come out in a public way in the millennium.
JP In that way it is a picture of the principles of the world to come.
FER There is no doubt for a moment that in the world to come peace will come in by Christ; Christ will be the peace.
WM I think I remember you saying He will be the justification of the whole sphere over which He is Head.
FER So too He will bring in favour and grace and glory. Reconciliation too will come in by Christ, and 1 have no doubt the last verse in the chapter will be fulfilled, that is, “That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might [p. 224] grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord”. That is what will mark that time. Sin has reigned by death, and in a certain sense sin reigns still by death, but there is a moment coming when, instead of that, grace will reign through righteousness unto eternal life through our Lord Jesus Christ, that is, through the power of God in Christ.
WM This chapter is, I judge, on the principle of the verse of the hymn,
‘That gives us now as heavenly light,
What soon shall be our part’.
FER What soon will be the part of all in a kind of way. What will be established publicly in the whole world. I think it is an immense point to apprehend what the ways of God are tending to.
JP And not to make ourselves the end of all God’s ways. I think we have suffered immensely in that way. We have been wonderfully cramped and pinched in our souls.
FER But it is a great statement at the end of chapter 5, “That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord”. It is an abstract statement.
GWH I suppose it is our failure to understand this chapter, in applying it to the world to come that has led to such misunderstanding of it.
FER I think so. It has been limited. It has an application to us, but in the latter part of the chapter things are stated abstractly. Everything is traced up to one Man, and shows the bearing and effect of what has come in by that one Man, because do you not see on the one hand that the righteousness of God is declared in the one Man, and that Man is the vessel of God’s power; and therefore everything comes to pass by that one Man. Not only in regard of Christ but in regard of the whole extent of God’s purpose, all God’s purposes by one Man. That is the closing up of the chapter, “That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Christ Jesus our Lord”.
JP I think what you have said shows the difference between the first and second part of the chapter. In the first part it is all “we”.
FER In the second part of the chapter it is all in one Man.
JSA And that touches on the point which we have frequently had elsewhere; that is, God’s mind and thought is the same toward all men.
FER Quite so. So it is by one offence toward all men to condemnation, even so through one righteousness toward all men unto justification of life.
JSA I mean it has been limited to believers instead of seeing it is God’s thought for all men, and the believer is the one who enters into it.
FER It has come in by one Man and that Man is the Head of every man.
WM So you have here that it is God’s thought to clear all men in the light of Christ.
FER I would say if God brings in one Man that [p. 225] Man must stand in relation to all men. Adam stood in relation to all men. Evidently as God made him he was in relation to all men, and it appears to me if one Man comes in, if He is entitled to be called one Man, He must stand in relation to all men. That appears to me to be evident. I cannot see how it can be gainsaid. What constitutes Him one Man? What constituted Adam one man? Because when God made him there was no other man. What he did affected all men. What constitutes Christ one Man? Really because He has accomplished redemption, and in Him God’s power is declared. He is the mercy-seat on the one hand, and on the other hand He is the expression of God’s power, and therefore He is the one Man. There is not another like Him.
WM One mediator.
FER Yes.
GWH The divine touchstone.
FER The point of contact, but He is available to every man.
JSA And it is in virtue of that fact that, as you were saying a little while ago, God can go on with things now.
FER I think so. But take the language of the parable. He has bought the field for the sake of the treasure; that is, all men are the purchase of Christ. There is no doubt God will bring out the treasure, but at the same time Christ has right and title to all men, and at the same time Christ is available to every man.
GWH In Job 9, the wail is there that there is no man that can lay his hand upon us both, but Christ is the true daysman.
FER The mediator. Hence Christ is the one Man. He gave Himself a ransom for all. Adam has no subsistence now. He has passed off the scene; there is no such head as Adam. I doubt if ever he was the head, because I think he lost his place morally before he became a head. At any rate there are no two heads. There is one Man and that one Man is Head of all men.
WM I suppose that is the one reason that you know [p. 226] that Christ is available to you, because He is available for all men.
FER I know no other. He is not available for any one man in particular. On the same ground, if anybody asked me why I believe that infants are saved, the only ground that I could give is that Christ is the Head of every man, and therefore they belong to Christ.
JSA And they have not refused Him.
WM Christ puts in His claim on them, and they do not refuse the claim.
FER They have not refused the claim so far.
JSA That leads up to the point that when man sets up another head, that brings to an end the present state of things.
FER Because man declares himself then in open, lawless defiance of God, and God goes on no longer; but the iniquity of the gentiles is not yet quite full.
JP You believe what will bring things to the final issue will be the setting up of the antichrist here.
FER That is clear. It is a curious thing that the doctrinal epistles begin with Romans and end with 2 Thessalonians. It is rather remarkable, because after all the arrangement is only human. You see Romans establishes the righteousness and power of God, and Thessalonians brings in Christ as the destroyer, and it brings in the end, when things are fully developed.
JP Thus as you were remarking this morning, it is very wonderful to see that the righteousness of God has come in, not in judgement, but in grace; and so the power of God has come in not in the way of destruction but in the way of resurrection.
FER Do you know how man’s righteousness comes in? It comes in by a threat and says, “Pay me that thou owest”.
JP God’s righteousness does not come in in that way.
FER No. He declares His righteousness in mercy in redemption, that is, He takes in hand to discharge all the liabilities under which man was. Man says to his fellow-men ‘[p. 227] I am not going to discharge your liabilities, I am going to exact them’.
WM And God’s way is, “when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both”.
FER Then again, man’s idea of power, you see it in every country, it comes out in destruction. I see the greatest skill in the world and an enormous portion of the money of the world is spent in the maintenance of armies for destruction, because they say that the way to keep peace is to keep up armaments. I say it is a very strange way to keep peace by maintaining enormous powers of destruction. But you see the power of man and his ability and his means really are all used in the way of destruction.
JP It will not be Christ’s way in the world to come, from what you were saying this morning.
FER No, indeed! God’s power has been set forth not in destruction but in revival. Some one was telling me that in the civil war very nearly a million of lives were sacrificed. There was wholesale destruction, but they could not revive one. I never heard of a single person being revived.
JP It is remarkable that we are in the neighbourhood of a large cemetery, which is a standing witness to what you say.
FER I thank God He has revived One. I do not mind a single bit if there is one Man raised from the dead. That is enough for me.
JSA And by one Man came the resurrection from the dead.
FER I am very well content if one Man has been raised. He was never raised by the power of man but by the power of God, and that power is toward us. He was delivered for our offences and was raised again for our justification, so we believe on Him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. I do not think it ever says the power of God is toward all. His righteousness is toward all, but the power of God is more limited. His power is not [p. 228] the test of man. His righteousness is the test of man as to whether man is prepared to admit the rights of God. That is the test of man, not the power of God.
WM The power of God is more the result.
JSA And if Christ is raised from the dead He is the first-fruits.
GWH “If Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins”.
WM It is true that all the principles in this chapter are applicable generally in the gospel, and they all come out again in the world to come.
FER I am sure Christ will be peace in the world to come. I was only saying so today. It is characteristic of Micah. He is peace in the world to come. Then you get the expression in the Psalms, “Jehovah will give grace and glory”. Then again, reconciliation comes out in the chapter. That is another point, and at the same time eternal life properly belongs to the world to come. It is the effect of the reign of grace. We read in Psalm 132 “there the Lord commanded the blessing, life for evermore”. It is commanded in Zion, so that all you get in the chapter will come out manifestly and publicly in the world to come.
JSA And if you read Psalm 72 you find three things characteristic of it in an earthly way, which are mentioned in this book, namely, righteousness, peace and joy. They belong to the kingdom of God.
WM So that none of these principles are quite new. They come out in connection with Israel.
FER You may depend upon it the principles of God’s ways must apply right through, else you have not got them right. The principles of God’s ways never alter. The application may vary but not the principles. The application varied in Israel, and it is different now to what it will be in the world to come, because the application to us is by faith and the Spirit. It will not be that in the millennium, but the same principles will hold [p. 229] good.
JSA So that the way to learn them is in the knowledge of God, and not in the particular circumstances to which they are applied.
WM In the spirit and not in the letter.
FER I think so. If we have any true sense of Christ as the mercy-seat and the power of God that has come in to raise Christ from the dead, by that knowledge of God we shall get the result spoken of in chapter 5. We shall get a blessed foundation in the knowledge of God with all the consequences that flow from it. That is peace, and access by faith into the grace wherein we stand, and rejoicing in hope of the glory of God. Then we can glory in tribulation, because tribulation worketh patience, and patience experience, and experience hope, and hope maketh not ashamed, because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us. Then we joy in God by our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation. That is clear proof that reconciliation may have another application.
GWH I suppose the hope of the glory of God will give place to the display of the glory of God.
FER When God’s glory is displayed it will no longer be a hope. Hope will be lost in full fruition.
JP “What a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”
WM All these things can be enjoyed in a scene of contrariety.
GWH Does it mean we glory in the midst of tribulation?
FER Yes; with the sense that God can turn it to good account. “Tribulation worketh patience; and patience, experience; and experience, hope”, etc. You see the terrible thing which has come to pass in christendom; I cannot conceive christians being content with christendom as it is, because the thing is that the Holy Spirit has been practically displaced. That is the terrible thing. Man has got into authority and all that kind of thing,
[p. 230] and the Spirit of God has been practically displaced. They do not believe in the presence of the Holy Ghost. No wonder people do not know much of what flows from the knowledge of God if they have practically displaced the Spirit of God, because everything for us depends on the presence of the Spirit of God. When I was in the Church of England, people did not believe in the presence of the Spirit of God. I do not say but that there may have been one here and there more intelligent than the rest, but the presence of the Spirit of God was not known, and that was one great reason that operated with me in leading me to cut my connection, and I do not think there has been any great advance since then.
JP There can be nothing vital apart from the Spirit of God.
FER Nothing. You get a man going by his own mind. Man’s mind is incapable of knowing God. A man can only know God by the Spirit of God. Even in the future God says, “I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh”. Well, there is a little expression which comes out in the chapter continually. It is “through”; “through our Lord Jesus Christ”. It is a point of great moment. It is a kind of formula throughout the chapter. “We have peace towards God through our Lord Jesus Christ”. “We are making our boast in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ”. “Through whom now we have received the reconciliation”. “So also grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord”.
JP I think it occurs seven times and in seven distinct connections.
FER It is of great moment.
WM Would it mean that He is the administrator of everything?
FER Yes; but what it means is this, that He is the vessel of divine power, and if that is our Lord, we need not fear any adverse power.
WM So it [p. 231] is really salvation.
FER Yes. All authority is given to Him in heaven and earth.
WM So that in spirit you anticipate the day of glory.
FER Yes. I think a christian ought to be able to say, I do not fear any adverse power.
T Would you explain that?
FER You see, you do not fear death, because Christ has the keys of death and hell. He is the vessel of divine power. You do not fear the devil, because Christ has got the power over the devil. He will shut him in the abyss. So I do not fear the world because Christ has overcome the world. It is exceedingly important to apprehend that all divine power has been proved by Christ. Being raised from the dead He is the vessel of divine power. He exercises all divine power. God will never do anything apart from Christ. That we are sure of. He is our Lord, therefore we have no reason to fear any adverse power, because He is superior to every adverse power.
GWH You do not need to fear man.
FER No. The Lord is greater than man. You do not fear death. He is greater than death. You do not fear the world; the Lord is greater than the world; when the devil comes the Lord is greater than the devil.
GWH And I suppose you are saved from the power of all by confessing Him as Lord.
FER That is the idea. “The name of the Lord is a strong tower: the righteous runneth into it, and is safe”, and in confessing Him as Lord you are saved. He is our Lord in this chapter. We appropriate Him. The great thing to my mind is that the Lord can strengthen me, if I have to meet death; the Lord will not put death aside at the present time, but He will enable me to meet death. So with persecution, the Lord may not set the enemy aside, but He will enable me to meet the persecution, and so as to the power of Satan; He will not put him aside for the moment, but He will enable me to meet Satan.
WM Stephen is a striking case of that.
JSA And Paul says, “the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me”.
FER Yes. In the present time the Lord does not set the evil aside, but He uses His power to enable you to stand against the evil. When the Lord comes again every form of evil will be set aside. He takes away the sin of the world. Satan is bound in the abyss so that he cannot get out to deceive the nations. Then again death is swallowed up in victory. That comes to pass at the coming of the Lord. But that has not come to pass yet, and yet we confess Christ as Lord as the One who is going to do it all.
How does it work in regard to us? Someone made reference to Stephen. How did it work in regard to him? He had enemies. The Jews were mad against him. Everything was there, but how did the Lord work? He strengthened Stephen and he was enabled to meet it all. Stephen overcame. They did not overcome him. He overcame the world, man, and the power of the enemy. He overcame everything by the power of the Lord. So the same thing in regard to Paul. Paul had to stand before the emperor. All his fellow christians forsook him, but he said, “the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion”. He overcame the world and every power that was against him.
CHS Is that rejoicing in tribulation?
FER More than rejoicing.
JP The first part of the Acts is full of that.
GWH In Acts 16 everything seemed to be adverse to Paul and Silas, and yet they were lifted above it all. They rejoiced in tribulation.
FER The idea to me is this, that the knowledge of Christ in that way gives you a kind of confidence because you know very well that the Lord can fortify you against anything, and the practical result is that you can enter into all the results of the knowledge of God. That is, you [p. 233] have peace with God and you have access by faith into this grace wherein ye stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God; and then again we joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the reconciliation. We can get all the good at the present time in the knowledge of God.
JP And you are not hindered by any sort of circumstances.
FER No, nor fear, because everything is through our Lord Jesus Christ. What impresses me is this — we get the benefit of His grace if we confess Him as Lord. He said to Paul, “My grace is sufficient for thee”.
JSA That really comes out in John 5, John 6 and John 7, the character in which Christ is set forth.
FER The light in which He is known to us; Jesus glorified and the Spirit given; the practical result is, “out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”.
GWH How does the question of the headship of Christ come in here? In contrast to Adam?
FER Yes; clearly.
GWH What is the connection between Christ as Head and Christ as Lord? Is there any?
FER But the point in these chapters 3 and 4 is the light in which God is known to us. I think all that has come out in one Man and of necessity that one Man must be the head of a system, and then the succeeding chapters 6, 7, and 8 bring in the truth of attachment. But do you not see that chapter 1 practically is the light in which God has come out. You see, in chapter 1 you get light, and in the end of chapter 5 you get the Sun, and in the succeeding chapters the principle of attachment, but the light comes first. “God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”. What I understand by the light of the glory of God is the revelation of Himself in righteousness and power. The Lord says, referring to the death of Lazarus, “This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God”. God was going to be effulgent in it, that the Son of God might be glorified thereby. Then you get another point in connection with the shining out of God, that is, He has established the Sun of righteousness to rule everywhere.
WM But what is going forth in testimony now is the headship of Christ.
FER I think so, but when it comes to a question of people learning by the Spirit, what they begin with is the glory of God. As a question of intelligence they do not first learn the headship, but the glory of God. Then afterwards they come to an apprehension of headship, but no one of us ever learned the headship in the first instance. What we learnt were the first principles of the knowledge of God. That is the way in which God has been pleased to reveal Himself.
JSA And really we must certainly follow God and the way in which He has been pleased to make Himself known to us.
FER God is effulgent. If you ask people what the glory of God means they will give you a most indefinite idea. I understand it to be His moral effulgence. That is the way in which it has shone out.
WM His manifestation in Christ.
FER Yes. The way in which He has been pleased to shine out in regard of man in righteousness and power in redemption and resurrection. You get it clearly enough in that same chapter of John, “Father, glorify thy name”, and the answer is, “I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again”. God is glorified in Him. He has shone out and magnified Himself; but where the glory of God has come out is in redemption and resurrection. That is where you see the glory of God. Therefore it is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.
GWH He is declared as to man to be a Saviour God.
WM Actually in preaching the gospel you present Christ.
FER Yes; but then I would present Christ as the [p. 235] glory of God. I would seek to show how God has shone out in Christ in righteousness and power.
WM You would have in your mind that Christ is Head, but the hearer would not apprehend that at once. He will get some light as to God.
FER That is the point.
GWH The thought of the head is intelligence, is it not?
FER Quite so; but the position of Christ as Head, although it is the security for all that God has done in a way, it is to us secondary to the display of God Himself, His revelation, because the first great thing is the revelation, that is, that God has revealed Himself in righteousness and power. His glory has so shone out and it is according to that that we have the privilege of knowing God. I say I know His righteousness in redemption, and His power in raising from the dead our Lord Jesus Christ.
That is the great thing for me because all is done on behalf of man. Therefore the foundation on which I stand is the mercy of God. That is what is set forth in redemption, and my authority and stay is the power of God, because God has raised from the dead our Lord Jesus.
JA Speaking of His glory, was part of it when Christ was here a Child? I was thinking of the scripture, “Glory to God in the highest”.
FER Quite so.
WM It is very clear when we begin with ourselves everything is obscured. It is the gospel of God.
GWH I suppose man has lost his head, and is wandering in consequence.
FER In the ways of God He took up a kind of national head in Israel, but that failed entirely, and that is not at all difficult to understand, because Israel itself wanted a head. They were to be the head and not the tail. In a sense they became the tail. They will get a Head.