GOD'S RIGHTS IN GRACE AND LOVE
GOD’S RIGHTS IN GRACE AND LOVE
JT I thought we might proceed with the chapter in Matthew and perhaps touch a little on Luke and John, linking it all up together. What we have had can easily be linked up with the teaching of this chapter, for all must converge on the assembly; the different features of the gospels must necessarily converge there. We might touch on Luke and John.
God coming in in His rights in grace in Luke has all men in view. The preaching was to begin at Jerusalem, but to extend to all. In His rights in government as set forth in Matthew’s gospel, He did not begin at Jerusalem, He began in Galilee. What we may not do in government we may do in grace, so the Lord directed that the preaching should begin at Jerusalem, but that the apostles should wait the promise of the Spirit from the Father; then the Lord is parted from them as He is blessing them and is carried up into heaven, and they worship; Him and return to Jerusalem with great joy, and were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. That is, they are there in the full sense of grace. It was God’s right to take up that attitude towards the guilty city.
AMH Would you say in that way that grace is operative now in Luke to deliver individuals from the governmental position? In Acts 2 we read, “The Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved”. Acts 2:47 I suppose, saved from that position?
JT Yes. God had a right to intervene in grace, so that as Jonathan sent the lad back into the city with his weapons, “David arose”, it says, “from the side of the south” (1 Samuel 20:41); that is, that notwithstanding the actual wickedness in the city [p. 114] and in the house of Saul, the attitude was favourable. It was not merited, far from it, but God had a right to resort to grace, which He did. “David arose from the side of the south” suggests that things were favourable. In Luke 24 the divine attitude is seen as favourable in the disciples going back into the city and being there in the temple, full of joy, praising and blessing God. There was thus a testimony present in the city, and any who came into the temple could profit by it. And so, later on, after the incident recorded, David said, “Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God to him?” 2 Samuel 9:3 That is the attitude of grace.
AMH Is your thought that we should take account of governmental dealings?
JT That was my thought. It greatly helps in the service of God to take account of His governmental ways; they cannot be altered. It is beautiful to see how David refused to touch Saul when he hunted him like a partridge on the mountains. He knew that Saul would die somehow, that God’s hand would reach him, but his hand would not be upon him. I believe the Lord would teach us in that way how to be gracious and take account of those who may be under the governmental dealings of God. We cannot alter them; God’s rights in government cannot be altered, but at the same time they are compatible with His rights in grace and His rights in service, so that David refuses to touch Saul and is enabled to pay a wonderful tribute to him and to Jonathan after they fell on mount Gilboa. In like manner we are enabled to take account of those who may be under the government of God, and to maintain an attitude of grace towards them. We have a right to — God has given us the right to act in grace.
Ques Is that contemplated in the first seven chapters [p. 115] of Acts?
JT Yes, up till the rejection of Stephen the southern aspect is maintained. “David arose from the side of the south”. 1 Samuel 20:41 God maintains it until Stephen is rejected, and it is maintained in principle throughout Paul’s ministry.
Ques Would the rejection of Stephen be the sin against the Holy Spirit?
JT It was, but the spirit of grace pursues the Jew in Paul’s ministry right to the end, even at Rome. Then there are, too, the rights of God in love, which is the most wonderful thing of all. “God so loved the world”. John 3:16 We have come to the Son revealing the Father, to the Father giving the Son, and the saints — the disciples — receiving from the Lord His breath, “He breathed into them”. John 20:22. And it is no longer a question of government, or grace exactly, or service, but of Persons — “As the Father sent me forth, I also send you” John 20:21 — the Father sent the Son and there are those sent out as the Son was sent out, that is, sent out in love. That is the most wonderful position of all, to be in this world actuated by love.
TR Do you regard the world as the people in it?
JT It is the world as God made it, I think. He made it and ornamented it; it is wonderfully made. “By faith we apprehend that the worlds were framed by the word of God”, Hebrews 11:3 but then there is one world we have to do with in which man was set, and God thinks of that. It would be of little account without man in it. But it is wonderfully ornamented, made in divine wisdom, and God has that world before Him.
TR Will the result of it be seen in the future day when everything is brought under the influence of divine love?
JT Yes; there is not a mountain, or a hill, or a lake, or a river that God does not take account of. All is there in divine skill, and He set man up in that scene. He will have that; He will have the world.
AMH You mean the world in the sense of an ordered system of things; it is “all men” in Luke, but it is having men in relation to an ordered system of things, I suppose, in John.
JT That is it, an ordered system of things in which He has set man.
AMH He has set His heart on that, and His affections are bound up with it.
JT Quite.
TR So it is the same world; it is not another world, but new conditions are brought in.
JT Quite, entirely new conditions. God never gives up a thought. If He has formed the world and set man up in it, He has not relinquished that thought; He is going to revert to it.
AMH When He says, “Now is the judgment of this world”, John 12:31 that is the ordered condition of things in the state to which it had fallen.
JT That is it. Sin had brought that about, but we cannot conceive for a moment that God will relinquish His thought as to the world. God unfolded the pattern of it to Moses on the mount, and He has never given that up. Compare Hebrews 9:1 - 5.
Ques Is that the thought reached at the end of the Psalms, “everything that hath breath”? Psalm 150:6 Quite. It would be of little account without man, because it is all one piece, the ornamented and ordered scene and man set in it.
MWB Is that why love is brought in in relation to the world and grace in relation to man?
JT I think so. “God so loved the world”. John 3:16 Is His purpose in view then in “God so loved the world”?
JT I think so. He will bring about a world entirely suitable to Himself.
JJ If you speak of the assembly in relation to this system, it cannot be from a natural standpoint.
JT You have to take account of the assembly on the principle of the house, as His dwelling-place.
[p. 117] Then it is a place of rule — government. Matthew presents it in this connection. That is a great feature of the testimony of God, and all this that we have had before us necessarily converges on what we have in this chapter. We come here to the foundation. As we have in 2 Chronicles 3:3, in the best rendering- “This was Solomon’s foundation”; that is to say, now we have arrived at the thought of the house and these things necessarily are in view, but we have got to begin with the foundation. “This was Solomon’s foundation for the construction of the house of God”. 2 Chronicles 3:3. You have to examine carefully the foundation because an these wonderful things are going to enter into this, and we must begin right.
RB Then with regard to what you were saying this afternoon as to the rights of God in love, are they preserved in the assembly by our being here with the same outlook on the world as God had?
JT That is it. John takes that up in his epistle. “He that dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God, and God in him”. 1 John 4:16 “We have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world”. 1 John 4:14 That is love, the Father sending the Son. We have seen that and testify to it, so all these thoughts converge on the assembly because “Solomon’s foundation for the construction of the house” 2 Chronicles 3:3 had in view all that preceded it, and included the light that came in in 1 Chronicles. David was shown the site of the house, and he had the pattern of it by the Spirit, and all is in view in this chapter.
MWB The way you have been speaking of the world gives expansion to the thought in the way John uses the term.
JT John begins, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him”. John 1:10 There it is the creation, but what it had become morally through sin is seen in the fact that it knew Him not.
MWB So you used the expression, “as God made it”.
JT It knew Him not, because of the conditions that had come in.
PL So that the Son making the world would give an indication as to the conception that God had; this came out fully in the presence of His Son here?
JT Yes; we read of “The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come”. Revelation 11:15 The world of our Lord is yet to come.
Ques Is the thought in John 1, “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world”, John 1:29 that God will have it according to His thought?
JT Yes, sin is to be removed from it.
TR The death of Christ is the foundation of it all.
JT If we apprehend the foundation, we are on our way to understand the structure, because it was Solomon’s foundation. The pattern was shown to David, but Solomon is the builder.
JJ You refer to Solomon as the son?
JT Yes; it is the son who builds the house.
AHW Do you refer to the foundation as seen in Peter’s vision in this chapter, and does Peter refuse the foundation in the death of Christ at the end of the chapter?
JT He did not see what was necessary to all this; he did not see that, as with David, things had to be bought. David paid a great price for the site of the house. We are told in Samuel that he bought it for fifty shekels of silver, but in Chronicles he gave the weight of six hundred shekels of gold. He gave it for the place. If one is going to build a house, plenty of room is wanted, he does not want to be limited for the want of space. David gave that amount in shekels of gold for the place. We have to [p. 119] think of what the Lord Jesus paid from His own point of view. If He has got the treasure, He buys the whole field; He must secure right of way.
MWB Is it on that line that the assembly is brought in in this chapter?
JT I think so. “The Son of man must suffer”; Mark 8:31 that is the cost. He is going to have a free hand in the building.
Ques Do you think it is in resurrection He builds?
JT He builds in resurrection. He has bought the space; it is a wide area. Ornan the Jebusite did not fix that price. David was acting, I judge, from his own standpoint, so that he would have the right of way there. It was what he gave for it.
FWP Are you distinguishing between the cost and the foundation?
JT Oh, yes. The site was evidently of wide area. God has secured a wide area for His house through the death of Christ.
PL Would you say the site was bought in the death of Christ, and He builds in resurrection?
JT Yes; it was Solomon’s foundation.
JJ So the wide area would embrace all the things in the end of the chapter?
JT There is plenty of room for building. The site of the foundation has to be distinguished from the foundation; there was no foundation there when David bought the place.
WCG “He gave himself a ransom for all”; 1 Timothy 2:6 is that the thought?
JT Yes. He has a free hand, having the right of redemption over all.
JJ Does it not make it all the more interesting that it was in the place where Abraham and Isaac were that Solomon began to build, “on mount Moriah”. I refer to 2 Chronicles 3:1.
JT It was to “the land of Moriah” Genesis 22:2 that Abraham [p. 120] was directed to go, referring to the mount being shown. “One of the mountains which I will tell thee of” (Genesis 22:2); and so David was shown the site (1 Chronicles 21).
TR As regards David, looking at him not now as a figure of Christ in buying the site, he moves on in great enlargement from that time forward.
JT He prepares a quantity of iron for nails among the other necessary things for the house. Things are to be held securely. That is in resurrection. The nails are in resurrection and are very important in the building.
MWB How would you apply that?
JT Well, I think they refer to the security in which things are set up in resurrection; they are beyond the reach of the ravages of time and Satan’s power. “On this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. Matthew 16:18.
Ques Like the “nail in a sure place” Isaiah 22:23?
JT Just so.
FWP Will you say a little more about the foundation? I think we can understand about the cost — what it was to the Lord to make the purchase.
JT What comes out in the early part of the chapter is that the Lord would deliver us from worldly religiousness — the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees — the two forms that religion has taken; and then the bread — the sense that the Lord is sufficient — comes in. These things relieve the mind; we have learnt their character, so that when we come to the foundation, it does not refer to what is objective. The Lord had walked on the water, cast out demons, had raised the dead and declared Himself to be the Son of God. But that is not what is referred to here. The gospel is presented on that ground. It is the “gospel of God ... concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to [p. 121] be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead”. Romans 1:1 - 4. But that is not referred to here; it is a question of being shown; that is, we are on spiritual lines. It is not what is presented in the way of testimony, it is what is apprehended spiritually, it was a revelation.
TR David had received the pattern of things by the Spirit.
JT Exactly. It says, “And Solomon began to build the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem on mount Moriah, where he appeared to David his father, in the place that David had prepared in the threshing-floor of Ornan the Jebusite”, 2 Chronicles 3:1. That is the idea. The thing was shown, and so it is here. “Flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”.
TR Would you say that Matthew’s view in regard of the kingdom of heaven would be in the main objective, but when you come to the assembly here it is more on the subjective line, what is built in?
JT It is that; hence we have to be prepared to be shown things — not taught or preached to, but shown. It is a spiritual thing.
CHW You mean the foundation was shown to Peter in regard to the Person of Christ, and so to every one — the foundation is shown to all the saints.
JT We have to come in our spiritual apprehension into that which was revealed to Peter.
AMH Would you think that coming into that apprehension indicates that the work of God is there and the kind of material comes to light?
JT “Thou art Peter”, you mean? He does not open much up to Peter about it. To him the Lord says, “I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens”.
Ques One would like to get the teaching a little more clearly; we have a good deal in Matthew about the kingdom of heaven and then in this chapter the [p. 122] assembly is brought in, and further on the kingdom is returned to. Why?
JT In chapter 18 the kingdom is taken up in connection with the assembly. In speaking to Peter here, the Lord does not open up the truth of the assembly; He just suggests the foundation and the material, because really He is thinking of Paul; “He himself knew what he would do”. John 6:6. He said to Peter in effect, Your function will be to open the kingdom to others; but in regard of what would result from that — the wonderful development under Paul’s ministry — the Lord maintained a reserve.
Ques Why is it brought in at all?
JT Because it fits in with the teaching in this gospel as it develops. The kingdom of the heavens was to work out through the assembly. In chapter 18 the assembly is to be appealed to here, it is simply brought in as corresponding with “Solomon’s foundation”, but we do not get the building. The Lord says, “I will build”, and this involves Paul’s ministry.
FWJ You get Peter here as a sample stone; he had no function in connection with the assembly.
JT No, not here. His commission here refers to the kingdom. In opening the door to the Gentiles he made room for Paul, who, “as a wise architect ... laid the foundation”. 1 Corinthians 3:10.
FWJ There is no builder but Christ in connection with the structure?
JT Except that you or I build according to 1 Corinthians 3. We are responsible as to what we put into it.
FWJ That would be more doctrine, would it not?
JT There is what is in keeping with the foundation, which remains as part of the building; thus what we build in is included in God’s building. Hence, “I will build” included Paul. It was in his ministry the truth of the assembly was [p. 123] opened up.
HFN How do you distinguish between the foundation spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3 — “For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ” 1 Corinthians 3:11 — and the foundation spoken of in this chapter?
JT Well, I think this is Solomon’s foundation; it is Christ’s foundation in other words; that is, He is building on this. But this would include Paul’s. Paul had the order of man in view — Jesus Christ — so as to shut out the man after the flesh.
HFN Is there any link between the way David built and the reference in Corinthians? It is said of David that he built inwards. I wondered whether the reference in Corinthians was more to David’s building and this more linked up with Solomon’s building.
JT David did not build the house; building inwards had reference to the city. Paul said, “Other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ”. 1 Corinthians 3:11 The Lord said to him at Corinth, “I have much people in this city”. Acts 18:10. If we look at men and women as they are, we have to bring in Jesus Christ, because souls have to be led to the order of man that has been tested here, and who has answered in every way to God. That is what Paul had in mind. Hence He says, “Let each see how he builds upon it”. 1 Corinthians 3:10. We may all have part in that building, that is to say, in helping souls and serving in various ways, but Solomon’s foundation is what we have here. In the midst of all this service, the Lord is building continuously and He is building on the sure foundation of the revelation of Himself as the Son of the living God in our souls.
HFN With regard to the first reference in Scripture to building — the building of the woman — might I ask how you view that in relation to the thought of building?
JT [p. 124] It is very remarkable that is the first mention of building. The word is not employed in regard to the framing of the world. But He builded the woman. There is, of course, a link between Genesis 2 and this chapter, only there it is a companion for Christ; here it is His assembly, having administration in view. “On this rock I will build my assembly”. It is not human instrumentality here, but it all works together. The assembly here has the kingdom in view.
Ques This is outside of flesh and blood conditions?
JT Yes, it is outside; but 1 Corinthians 3 contemplates the conditions in which we are, and hence we must bring in the order of man that was here. The responsibility of the builders is in view.
FWJ You do not look at this from an individual point of view, but as exclusively the work of God?
JT Exactly; Christ is the Builder.
Ques Do you connect “Jesus Christ” with the moral side, and is the “Son of God” the spiritual side?
JT Of course the spiritual element enters into the moral side as well, but what the Lord builds is absolutely spiritual and we arrive at it by being shown. Compare 2 Chronicles 3:1 and notes in New Translation. We must arrive at “Solomon’s foundation”.
Rem So the Lord refers to “My Father” in that connection.
JT Yes, it was revelation. Already in chapter 14 He is acknowledged to be the Son of God, but that is by the miracles. This is another matter. This is one of the most difficult points in the whole of the New Testament — to arrive at Christ’s foundation.
PW Would you say that the Lord builds on what the Father was revealing to Peter? Does the Lord build on [p. 125] what the Father was doing?
JT Well, what was in Peter’s soul the Father had placed there and the Lord discerns it at once. There is the foundation.
JS Would you connect the foundation with John’s gospel?
JT It necessarily enters into it, but here it is the Father revealing to Peter; “to thee”, as it says. In John’s gospel we have the revelation of God by the Son, but here it is the Son revealed by the Father to Peter. It is not based on what came out in the Lord’s service; it is entirely on what the Father made known in Peter’s soul.
Ques Is it on that account that the gates of hades cannot prevail against it?
JT God has reached a position that cannot be overthrown. Government is now fixed.
JJ In Matthew the kingdom is a necessity for the assembly; I mean the kingdom exists for the sake of the assembly.
JT And then the assembly is the capital whence all the light radiates. Whilst government in the assembly is not arbitrary, it is right.
HH What do you understand by the kingdom of the heavens?
JT It is the rule of the heavens, and means now that Christ is in heaven; and things are carried on here in the assembly on His account now.
HH Why is there nothing said at the end of the gospel about His going up? He says, “I am with you all the days”. Matthew 28:20.
JT But the Father is ever referred to as there. We know Christ is with us, but the fact that it is not said He goes into heaven does not mean that He has not gone into heaven. The point is He is here to support us; it does not mean He is here personally. He is here in the way of support.
Ques What do you mean by support?
JT At the care meetings is where you realise [p. 126] it.
I was at a meeting here once when I realised it in a very distinct way. That is the idea; He is with us for the maintenance of the government of God and the discipline of God here, and indeed for the maintenance of the testimony. But how essential if they are to go and make disciples of all the nations that He should be with them: “I am with you alway”.
Ques Are you thinking of “my assembly” in the light of the four anointings you mentioned?
JT The Lord has “my assembly” here, and all these features necessarily converge there.
CHW What is the thought underlying that expression, “my assembly”?
JT That He would have it; He would not have Jerusalem.
CHW In a personal way, like the pearl?
JT It is available to Him for the maintenance of the government of God here, pending the public display of things.
WCG Where would Paul help us in regard of Solomon’s foundation?
JT In Damascus he began to speak it. “And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God”. Acts 9:20. God had revealed His Son in him. There was the basis for a new order of things.
MWB You said the foundation was a subjective idea. Is it that which is laid in persons’ souls? That work would not be going on today as the foundation, would it?
JT I think you come into it. The thing is already there since the revelation was made to Peter, but you come into it on the same line. The Holy Spirit is here and He works in your soul. You receive things objectively in relation to what you hear and see, but then the Holy Spirit works in you. There is such a thing as the “spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him”. Ephesians [p. 127] 1:17.
MWB You would not link the foundation exclusively with God’s work in Peter’s soul?
JT That was the principle of it. It is what is here in the souls of the saints; that is what it is — the knowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
ASL Is it right to think of Christ as the Son of the living God, still building the assembly?
JT Certainly; it is a question of what is known in our souls by revelation.
Ques Is that a different thought from what we get in Timothy, “The firm foundation of God stands”? 2 Timothy 2:19.
JT Oh! well, it would be the same thing, but here it is something you have got on to, so to speak. You have got on to something that is fixed, that nothing can shake. You are on a spiritual rock; whatever happens here, there you are. That is a thing to lay hold of.
TR Does that give us the ability to take account of the assembly in its administrative capacity?
JT I think it does; you know the ground you are on now. Chapter 18 really hinges on this.
Ques Does the Lord in John show how we come into the apprehension of it, speaking of the Spirit, “he shall receive of mine, and announce it to you”? John 16:14 Well, yes; there is the suggestion there. It is what the Holy Spirit does in us really.
Ques Is not the discerning of the truth of the assembly a matter of divine revelation now as ever?
JT Of course, what we have here was very special; it was the beginning of a new order of things and the Father took the initiative. It is not the Son’s work; it is the Father’s work. The Lord proceeds on new lines from this point.
Ques Did the Lord greatly appreciate that this point had arrived?
JT It was a wonderful moment. In chapter 11 [p. 128] He looked up and gave thanks to the Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that He had hid these things from the wise and prudent and had revealed them to babes. Now here He does not tell us what the things were, but you have a definite revelation by the Father in Peter’s soul, and I am sure it was a wonderful moment for the Lord — the beginning of the new Jerusalem.
Rem The administration would not break down in the assembly as it did in Israel.
JT That is it.
ASL The activity of living grace in heaven is connecting the living stones together now.
HFN Would you contrast the Lord’s word to Peter in John 1, “Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas: thou shalt be called Cephas”, John 1:42 with what we have here? Would you say what the difference is between the two?
JT The Lord looked on him, it says, and said, “Thou shalt be called Peter”. The Lord is giving names there; that is to say, the saints are distinguished by their movements of life in John, because there it is the Last Adam naming us, and Peter gets his name. But here it is, “Thou art Peter”; not, Thou shalt be called Peter, but “Thou art Peter”, meaning that he is qualified as material for the building.
HFN Are there in that way three phases in Peter’s history — his relation to the Lord Himself in John 1, then in relation to the Father in Matthew 16, and then the Spirit in Acts 2; is that the completion of his education?
JT Well, quite.
JJ You feel in thinking of the Father the necessity for John’s ministry; you feel it is left for John to [p. 129] bring out.
JT I have no doubt.
PL So there is what the Father does as revelation, and what Peter does in confession, and what Christ does in building.
JT That puts it very well together. “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God ... Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens. And I also, I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”. This refers to the light that had come into his soul, and the Lord says, “Thou art Peter”.
Ques Now, will you distinguish between that and what we are in the presence of today — the breakdown of the responsible vessel?
JT That is on the line of 1 Corinthians 3; it is because the truth of Jesus Christ has not been held to by the builders.
CHW What attitude was the Lord taking when He said, “I also, I say unto thee”?
JT That of another divine Person — the Father had revealed something to Peter and He recognised it. The moral side must always be kept in view because of what you have to contend with. The moral side began in figure in mount Lebanon. The timber was cut down and carried over the sea and delivered to Solomon. That all refers to the moral side.
WCG Are we weak sometimes on the moral side?
JT I think so; that is where we are defective.
ASL Would you expound a little the difference between moral and spiritual?
JT “Moral” involves I am dealing with mixed material and I have to refuse what is evil. One has to discriminate between good and evil; that is a great thing in dealing with souls. You are not admitting any [p. 130] evil; that has to go.
ASL What is spiritual is beyond that?
JT Of course, you are working by the Spirit in all that, but there is a time when the thing is delivered over to Solomon, as it were, and he puts it into the building.
ASL Then there are things wholly spiritual, which is a different thought from what is moral.
JT I think so. You do not get the moral thought here, “On this rock I will build my assembly”, but there is a great deal preceding the actual putting in of the material.
Ques Would the blind man in John 9 help us in that regard?
JT There is a process of disentanglement till the man is outside. What is noticeable in this chapter is the Lord left the Pharisees and Sadducees; He has done with them.
RB Then “being shown”, as you speak of it, is more a process on the line of the work wrought in the man in John 9.
JT I think you come into it; it is a spiritual apprehension.
Rem The Lord says, “A sign shall not be given to it, save the sign of Jonas”. He left them with that sign; that is the moral side.
JT “He left them, and went away”. And then the disciples were warned to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees. That is where the moral side comes in.
MWB What is the connection between this and 1 Peter 2, “To whom coming ... yourselves also as living stones”? 1 Peter 2:4,5.
JT In the whole realm of nature there is no such idea as living stones. It shows how unique it is, and what the nature of the building is.