THE LIGHT OF SONSHIP
THE LIGHT OF SONSHIP
JT This question on the part of the disciples would rather indicate that they were not in the enjoyment of the light of the previous chapter. It says, “in that hour”. In the preceding incident the Lord had brought out the great thought of sonship, associating Peter with Himself in the most intimate way; He says, “Take that and give it to them for me and thee”. Matthew 17:27. The truth of sonship and our association with the Lord in that relation had been introduced, and yet it says, “In that hour the disciples came to Jesus saying, Who then is greatest in the kingdom of the heavens?”
HH How does the truth of sonship affect us?
JT Well, no position in the kingdom of the heavens is equal to sonship, but any position given in the kingdom of the heavens would be occupied in the light, and grace, and dignity of sonship. True greatness lies in the relationship indicated — that of sons. The Lord says, “For me and thee”. Matthew 17:27 It is the apprehension of the relation into which we are brought as sons that will enable us to occupy our positions in the kingdom according to God, for we are personally greater than any office we may hold. That the disciples should have asked “in that hour” showed it had not been taken in at all.
AJHB Would the apprehension of sonship lead one to take the place of a little child?
JT It is only in the light of sonship you can do it. Their question had in view the place they would occupy before men, but the knowledge of our relation to God as sons enables us to take any relation to the will of God here. It is a matter of little consequence [p. 132] whether we are in the place of prominence or otherwise; hence the Lord calls a little child in order to convey His mind as to what is becoming to us in our public capacity. But a little child does not indicate our place as sons.
PL Do you see this in Solomon taking the place of a little child in his prayer to God?
JT He said, “I am but a little child; I know not how to go out or come in”, 1 Kings 3:7. He shines in the kingdom, but he was a son before that. It was undoubtedly in the knowledge he had of his personal dignity that he could take the place he did in the kingdom. He says, “I was my father’s son”. No one perhaps in the Old Testament illustrates the truth of sonship as to how it works out in the kingdom more fully than he. He had a tender place in the affections of his father and mother (Proverbs 4:3), and God had named him because He loved him; indeed God had taken him to be His son. It is the light of this great relationship that enables us to fulfil any function in what may come out in the public position of the kingdom where God’s will is carried out.
TR The question of trespass can only be taken up in the sense of sonship.
JT Well, I thought that.
TR It is a serious question, and it seems to be put here in this chapter on the side of recovery — our responsibility to recover — whereas chapter 5 puts the responsibility on the person who trespasses.
JT Hence it is a question here of what we are with God to have power with men. Sonship indicates what we are with God. I think the little child in the public position corresponds with the son as before God. One comes in to fulfil any function here in assurance as being in the dignity and liberty of a son. The chapters from 14 onwards have a bearing on this chapter, but particularly chapters 16 and 17; they bring out the light of Christ’s dignity as the [p. 133] Son and then the wonderful fact that “then are the sons free”. Matthew 17:26. It is a precious thought.
EJMcB The sense of dignity with God would enable us to take the most menial place here in a creditable manner.
JT And in taking the lowly place, the place of a little child, we come under the protection of heaven — wonderful protection! The son does not need that; it is the little one that calls forth all the interest of heaven. The chapter sets out the ground on which things are as we approach administration — as we take up administration here.
EJMcB Do you think the hour of privilege leads to the disclosure of the moral state of the soul? “In that hour”; the disclosure comes out at that time.
JT We rightly speak a great deal of privilege, but the question is what effect has it on us? What effect had the hour in which these wonderful things were disclosed on the disciples? One feels for oneself how little one is affected by the magnitude of the things presented to us — God’s thoughts for us. It was in the presence of all these wonderful things which divine love had brought to light — sonship and our companionship with Christ — and in that hour, too, that this question of who should be greatest in the kingdom comes out.
WCG You said they had not entered into their privilege. How would people enter into the reality of it?
JT The occurrence at the end of chapter 17 took place in the house. It was one of a series of occurrences in the house, the import of which would enable us, as we follow them and enter into them, to take up administration in the house, for that is where administration is — the dispensation of God which is in faith — it is house-wise. The incident is, one might [p. 134] say, the climax of occurrences that this gospel presents in the house — instances in which the Lord served in the house. This may be taken as perhaps the last and the greatest. It was when Peter came into the house that the Lord anticipated him and raised the question as to the position of sons. Thus we see that the way we come into this is house-wise; it is not a public thing, it is in the house, like one who had the desire to dwell in the house to behold the beauty of the Lord. We come to see what a great thing sonship is, “Now the bondman abides not in the house for ever; the son abides for ever” John 8: 35; we have the liberty of the house — liberty with God. He has no less a thought for us, and in the liberty of that position we are supported by divine resources-the sons are free. “Go to the sea and cast a hook, and take the first fish that comes up” Matthew 17:27 and you will find a piece of money there. So the resources of God sustain us there, and it is in the light of that that we take up our service here. Hence we come into it in dignity and there is no need to be added to by it. Our place in the kingdom will disappear, but sonship will remain.
JJ In Luke 22, when the hour was come, and the Lord sat at table with the disciples, a strife arose amongst them as to who should be the greatest. Is that the hour of privilege?
JT Yes; it was so.
Ques Do we not see perfectly expressed in the Lord Himself that in the consciousness of His place with the Father, He could surrender everything here and go down to the lowest place?
JT I think so. John sees Him at the outset as with the Father, an only One with the Father. That is the beginning of the thing. Then those who begin to follow are invited to come and see where He abides. I think John’s writings fit in now, and thus we learn [p. 135] to take things up in the knowledge of our place with God.
WCG On the mount of Transfiguration they had already heard Him saluted as the Son.
JT How wonderful that He should have said, “the sons”, and then “me and thee”! Matthew 17:27 And to be associated with the One in whom it was so perfectly expressed.
JT Quite; and the occurrences in the house rightly understood, ending with this occurrence, qualify us to enter on chapter 18, because administration is in the house — the dispensation of God according to the house — and we are to have part in the administration and it is to be in the dignity in which the Lord acted in the house.
TR So you would be enabled to answer to the supreme test, seventy times seven.
JT Well, I think that is the way; you have to go after the brother. It is the test of your power whether you can gain your brother.
Ques “Unless ye are converted and become as little children”; why should that come in?
JT Well, it is quite evident they needed conversion; they could not see sonship “in that hour”. You could not see the great thought of God — this wonderful place that was being unfolded, and begin to ask about being great outwardly.
Rem In that way our reading may be helpful to that end, that some of us may be converted.
JT Yes; converted to see the great thing there is for us before God. It is greater than anything we can have here before men.
Rem For conversion would give one to look at God’s thoughts according to their divine presentation.
JT I think that is what conversion would imply. To turn round, to come to see what there is. The point is what place we take outwardly. The Lord calls to Him a little child — the one available.
[p. 136] PL Would you get the thought of conversion in Mary Magdalene, in her turning round?
JT That is very good. She turned round to this same thing; the Lord pointed out to her this very thing.
JJ You mean, “My Father and your Father ... my God and your God”? John 20:17.
JT Quite.
DLH But do we not get a little touch of the public line that we ought to pursue, even in the Lord’s word about the dignity and giving for Me and thee, “lest we should offend them”? Matthew 17:27. That seems to indicate the line we are to take publicly before men. We do not parade anything of our sonship, but we take the lowly place and seek to avoid all offences. Is that not so?
JT I think the reference to the fish is that the resources of God which we have save us from coming under outward influences, and save us from compromising our position; we know our dignity.
DLH But you do not tell the outside people anything about your dignity.
JT But you show it.
DLH But you show it in littleness, and in taking your place of nothingness here.
JT You can relinquish things here in the light of your dignity.
DLH Yes.
Ques Is it in the spirit of sonship that this can be carried out?
JT I think it is; the resources of God are indicated in the fish.
RB Why is it in the singular?
JT It is one hook, one fish, one piece of money. He did not need to cast a net out. It seems to indicate how divine resources are available at once; they are there. I think that the knowledge of sonship enables you to ask for just what you need.
[p. 137] Ques So would you say it leads up to agreement on the earth?
JT Oh! I only meant asking as indicating we have access to divine resources. I think the sea indicates the sphere of divine resources, and these are available as we need them.
Ques And the hand and foot and eye cast from thee, would that fit in with Colossians? “Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth”. Colossians 3:5.
JT Yes, I think it would.
Ques Paul had his name changed, “Saul who also is Paul”. Acts 13:9. Is that suggestive? He came to it.
JT I think he did.
JJ I suppose Timothy would set forth the spirit of a little child in serving in the house.
JT Yes; he was Paul’s child.
JJ What is the meaning of bringing in offences and offending these little ones?
JT Anything by which they might be misled, by way of example.
HFN Will you say a word in regard to what you referred to in connection with the Lord’s movements in the house, in the previous part of Matthew? I think you said it led up to this. Would you indicate what you had in mind?
JT Well, Matthew presents the official side of the Lord’s service here, as Mark also does; hence He was anointed by the woman in the house of Simon the leper, meaning that she virtually said in her anointing, This is the nature, the kind of administration in divine hands — this is the Vessel, the Administrator. She would upset by her act, if accepted by the people of God, the whole hierarchical fabric of Christendom; she anointed His head, signifying that she recognised the suitability in the Vessel that had come in, and that God had already anointed an Administrator for that which He was administering.
[p. 138] The wise men had begun the thing by coming to the house and falling down and worshipping Him, and in bringing out of their treasures gold, frankincense, and myrrh, and presenting them. They did not do that from experience; they did it instinctively as having light. The King was before them. The King had not entered on His administration, but He was to them the King; but at the end of the gospel the woman recognised it by anointing His head, and the Lord says, “Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached in the whole world, there shall also this, that this woman hath done, be told for a memorial of her”. Matthew 26:13. It was to come down with the gospel, reminding us of what that woman did. She had a true estimate of the kind of vessel that was suitable for this great administration.
Now the wise men had set out the idea in recognising the King, but this woman had come to it by observation, by experience. I think that the consideration of the occurrences throughout the gospel would enable us to see the rightness of her act, which was also in the house — in the house of Simon the leper. The Lord, for instance, begins in the house of Peter, and Peter’s wife’s mother is sick of a fever. He touches her, and the fever left her and she arose and served Him; Matthew 8:14, 15. Then He is in the house of Matthew the publican and sits down with publicans and sinners; that is, the company there would bring Him into reproach; Matthew 9:10. One must accept that — that those whom God brings in are of God’s selection, and may bring us under reproach. And so on right through; you get Jairus’s daughter in the house. The Lord comes into the house and there are flute players there and people making a noise. That is not suitable to the house; administration in the house cannot be carried on under such conditions — things that appeal to men’s senses. So He puts them all out and He takes certain [p. 139] ones in — those who are spiritual; then He took the maid by the hand and she arose; there is power there. Later in chapter 9 two men come to Him who are blind. They come into the house and they get their eyes opened and see things as they should be seen. So also in chapter 13, He comes again into the house, we read, and the disciples come to Him and say, “Declare unto us the parable of the tares”,: Matthew 13:36 and He expounds it to them in the house.
But He goes further and brings out the truth of the assembly as the treasure, and teaches that we are to understand it as hidden. He also speaks of the preciousness of the pearl; there are things hidden and things which are seen. Then He opens up the parable of the net cast into the sea so that we may understand that the good are to be gathered into vessels, but the bad cast away; souls are to be received with deliberation; the fishermen are to sit down and select. Then He graciously said to them, “Have ye understood all these things?” They say unto Him, “Yea, Lord”. Then He adds, “every scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old”; Matthew 13:52 that is to say, we learn to be householders by observing these things. Then we have this further instance, which I think is the crowning one in the house, where we are brought into the knowledge of our relation with the Lord as sons. That is what I had in mind, and if we approach this chapter in the light of these things, we shall know how to do things. The brother who has offended is treated accordingly.
AMH I should like to know a little more as to administration — the adjustment of things in the house. Is there not the administration in the house of the goodness of God and what flows out manward?
JT Quite. It is an immense thing to lay hold of what we are in the house and to see how the Lord [p. 140] moved in that sphere, because it is in the house that we get our training, our family feelings and affections.
AMH So the first serving in the incident you referred to in Peter’s house would be liberation to serve Him?
JT Quite; we have to be relieved of feverish conditions.
AMH A question has been raised as to the relation between the kingdom of the heavens and the assembly. I suppose they are not the same. Would the kingdom of the heavens be rather wider?
JT I think it is wider; I suppose it is the rule of the heavens here, and would extend to the whole profession. Then the great fact is God has something here that can be appealed to, that is formed of those in the light of these things, and that is outside the world and greater than the world. We are consciously greater and superior to the world in the light of what has preceded this chapter. So we deal with things administratively from that consciousness, knowing our place with God.
PL Do you find the truth of sonship in Isaac when he retires before the Philistines in a lowly spirit such as a little child, finally retiring into the position where the world cannot pursue him?
JT Quite.
AJHB Does the expression here, “enter”, give the thought of being in the kingdom as having become as a little child?
JT I think entering here is as you might say subjective. You enter; you see now how things are and you see you have part in this wonderful thing — the kingdom. You have to become as a little child, and you are consciously under the care of heaven. Woe be to anyone who interferes with you. So personally you are great in the knowledge of your place with God, but you are under the care and protection of heaven as having become as a little [p. 141] child, and woe be to any person or system that interferes.
WCG Do you think that verses 12 - 14 would be suitable for administration in the assembly?
JT I think so. It is a question whether we approach divine things from the standpoint of current religions around us, that is, working ourselves up to it, preparing ourselves for it, or whether we approach them from the standpoint of Matthew’s gospel, coming into them in dignity; that is what we have to get hold of. If we do there is no danger, we are just content. Our personal dignity is taken care of. The first great test is how I can save my brother if he has offended me; what I can do to help him.
TR To seek the one that has gone astray.
JT Quite.
TR In connection with the trespass offering Leviticus 6:16 it is interesting to notice that it is the only occasion in which the ram was connected with the sin offering. “So it is not the will of your Father which is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish”. It is a beautiful incentive to go in the spirit of forgiveness.
JT I suppose the ram would denote the full development of a Christian; so you act from that level. It would be Christ as seen in this gospel in the fulness of manhood before God.
TR So whether you trespass or whether you are trespassed against, that is the ideal and the standard.
JT Quite.
Ques Are you suggesting that we learn to recover our brother before we become preachers according to Mark?
JT The question of preaching does not enter into this; it is more administration in the house, that is, how we get on together first of all, and because offences will come, whether we are great [p. 142] enough to gain our brother. If we have lost our brother, we want to gain him. If we fail in that personally, “between thee and him alone”, then we are told to “take with thee one or two more”, which I am sure many of us have proved and learnt the wisdom of, and failing that, we finally have recourse to the assembly. “Tell it to the assembly”.
DLH Is not the assembly the vessel in which divine grace finds its perfect expression at the present time?
JT I thought so. God’s thought was that there should be that here which might be appealed to as corresponding to heaven. Hence He says, “Whatsoever ye shall bind on the earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on the earth shall be loosed in heaven”. That is the assembly. The next verse is, “Again I say to you”, which I think contemplates our own times, but verses 17 and 18 have reference to the assembly as it was set up. There was that on earth set up in this precious light, set up in the light, and dignity, and grace of sonship, that was in accord with heaven, and it was a very wonderful conception. But when it says, “Again I say to you”, it seems to indicate changed conditions, so it is brought down to two or three, that is, God would in that way provide for the maintenance of the light and truth of the assembly right to the end. “Again I say to you .... For where two or three are gathered unto my name”.
AMH You mean in principle this can still be carried out?
JT That is what I thought.
AMH I was wondering as to the kind of offences in question in this chapter.
JT It means that a brother is lost and you want to gain him. It is a question of gaining [p. 143] the brother.
RB How do you regard the binding and loosing here as compared with what the Lord said to Peter? Matthew 16:19.
JT This is the assembly, and was worked out at Corinth. The epistles to the Corinthians teach us how it would work out in a local assembly.
RB And how would it work out as far as Peter was concerned?
JT That was apostolic; he bound the sin on the Jews and released the Gentiles.
AMH When you refer to Corinthians, do you get the binding in the first epistle, and the loosing in the second?
JT The second epistle to the Corinthians would bring in the grace that should mark us in releasing — when the year of release comes.
AMH Would Peter’s act be more dispensational in character? This would be administrative in the present dispensation.
JT It is the assembly here.
AMH Is the loosing the idea of receiving into the family?
JT Yes, I should say so. What has marked the late revival, when a number of Christians were led to come along, was that there was no hard and fast rule laid down. Love was active, and the brethren were ready to receive their brethren freely as brethren. There was no need for binding. God did act judicially later, but loosing or remitting marked the movement. Here binding comes first, but in John remitting comes first. He breathed into them. “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”. John 20:23 John’s ministry is intended for the end to effect recovery, and so remission is first.
PL Does Ananias do the loosing: “brother Saul”? Acts 9:17 Quite. This “again I say to you” seems to meet the case. First there are the resources we have;
[p. 144] if there are only two of us that agree concerning any matter, whatever we ask it shall be done — an immense thought — and then “where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I”. He is there to support them in maintaining the truth of the assembly.
TR I suppose we could only speak of ourselves as “two or three” today.
JT That is the ground we are on, I think.
Ques Is there anything special in the way the Lord gives the word “my Father” here: “It shall be done for them of my Father”?
JT It is what marks this gospel.
JJ Would you say a little more about verse 20, because it has been rather limited to one kind of meeting: “Where two or three are gathered together”?
JT It is important to note that it is prefaced by, “Again I say to you”, and then follows, “for where two or three are gathered together unto my name”. It is worked out in the support that we get from heaven. We get it in the Lord’s presence with us as we seek to maintain what is due to Him, and walk together in the light of the assembly.
JJ You were saying on the last occasion that when we are in the care meeting it would be a very great thing to recognise the Lord with us.
JT I think it applies peculiarly to that. It is not limited to that, but it applies in endeavouring to deal with evil; it is the presence of the Lord. “There am I”; it is the presence of the Lord with the two or three. I think God has great regard for the assembly and He intends it should be maintained to the end; so there is power available.
Ques Does the verse go further than the prayer meeting?
JT The prayer meeting might be included in it, but the Lord is bringing the thing down to the [p. 145] narrowest possible limits, so that it is within the range of the very fewest.
HH What is the force of the word “gathered”?
JT It is a question of being gathered together, and supposes that we have the light of the assembly. “Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”.
DLH It refers to the actual convening or coming together of people who are in the light of the assembly of God.
JT I thought that; quite.
DLH It does not refer to people being rightly gathered, as though it were an action of the Spirit. I have noticed there has been a thought of that kind in some people’s minds.
JT We are concerned about things that affect the house of God; we have a sense of having to do with the things of God. If there be a serious matter, we are burdened, and we pray and come together in the Lord’s name; we have to deal with it, and the Lord is there. He will be there, and so the thing is dealt with; there is power to deal with it.
Ques Is it in the dignity of the position; and the spirit of a little child that the thing is possible.
JT Quite so.
PL Does not John in writing of Diotrephes refer to binding there?
JT I thought the second epistle of John is the thought of the sister. A sister, or sisters, may maintain discipline — that is, sin must be dealt with. We must be free of evil, and the Lord will not allow us to be baffled. He will sustain us and support us in refusing it. Of course sisters alone cannot act in assembly character, nevertheless 2 John places upon one the obligation of dealing with a certain evil, if it came to her.
What this chapter presents is a question of offences that have to be dealt with — really a question of [p. 146] discipline. The Lord indicates that right down to the end He is with His people with a view to maintaining what is due to the house of God. The passage is really parallel in principle to John 14, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me ... . and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”. John 14:21 The Lord comes to one there; here it is to two or “two or three”, because it is a question of the assembly. You must have at least two for the assembly.
TR John is outside dispensation and brings in what is spiritual.
JT Just so; and so He speaks of coming to one.
Ques Would you connect the thought of His presence in any way with chapter 16, “Hades’ gates shall not prevail against it”? Matthew 16:18 In this way there is support.
JT Quite.