THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISPENSATION (2)
[p. 271] THE SPIRIT OF THIS DISPENSATION (2)
RSS Do you look at the earlier part of Kings as illustrative of the period through which we are going, the period of the assembly?
JT Yes. Chronicles speaks rather of Christ’s resumption of his relations with Israel, and the establishment of the promises. 1 Kings is Christianity, as we speak, and then the continuance of the spirit of the dispensation, so that, whilst we have a judgment about things, we do not execute it. Penalty is not meted out for sin yet. The character of the dispensation is maintained. Here judgment is not executed on the offenders mentioned until David dies.
RSS Which indicates the close of the dispensation. So God’s dealings with His people and also with the world, are not of a punitive character, but rather chastisement of His people. Does this apply to the world also?
JT The same holds good as to the world. The dispensation has not altered. The Lord said to the disciples in Luke 24 that they were to preach repentance and remission of sins to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. That is to say, Luke presents grace, and therefore the preaching would begin at the wickedest spot, and that principle remains. It is still the reign of grace, and that of course is not limited to Christians. It is toward all men, so that God’s dealings with men are on this principle.
RSS God is not punishing the nations now, He is allowing them to punish one another.
JT And it becomes a chastisement and a voice from God, so that men should turn to Him, and there are many turning [p. 272] to Him.
WCR You said God was reluctant to throw them off.
JT Yes, and we should be in accord with that.
GAT In what way do you mean that God is not punishing the nations now, but allowing them to punish one another?
RSS It was just pointed out that God’s attitude is one of grace toward all men; repentance and remission of sins are preached; also, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences”, 2 Corinthians 5:19. God is allowing the nations to chasten each other.
WCR We have to be careful not to have national feeling. We often wish, perhaps, that some of the nations might be punished more severely than others. We become national in our thoughts, favouring the nations we spring from.
MLH Would you say a word about the grace of God restraining the nations, which it seems not to be doing at this moment? We are under the reign of grace, and it is not restraining the nations from injuring each other.
JT The grace of God is restraining now, but God allows the principles that are at work to disclose themselves. Of course I am not overlooking the government of God. It still remains, and “Whatever a man shall sow, that also shall he reap” (Galatians 6:7) applies to nations as much as to individuals. Hence it is remarkable that those nations that have not valued the light have suffered most. The government of God is always true to its own principles. I believe there is a voice for the human race at the present time.
RSS Then the state of things that exists at the present moment is really through the utter disregard of the principles of Christianity. Take almost the very simplest one, in the Lord’s words to Peter. “all who take the sword shall perish by the sword”, Matthew 26:52. That is what the Christian nations of the earth largely have done, and what is happening to them? Many say Christianity has failed. That is not true. Men have failed to maintain the principles of Christianity. The difficulty is with men, not with Christianity.
JT They have not applied its principles. It is a very remarkable thing that a voice has gone out that Christianity is a failure, whereas it is not a failure. If you get one answering to it, it is a triumph. If one, why not many?
WB The principle on which God is working, is what we get in Job 33. When a man gets to the extremity and is in the face of death, then God speaks to him; a messenger is sent to him.
GWW Is there not another thing? Men have been utterly impatient of all control on God’s part. They desired to go without the control of God and have listened to the suggestions Satan has made to them through the world, and found them pleasant, and God is letting them have a full taste of what is the power that lies behind the world, the power of Satan, working out in hatred and violence in men. Man is getting a taste of what the power really is, that he has been trifling with all his days.
JT And another thing is that God is allowing the world to weaken itself.
GWW One is struck with that. I came across a remark of Mr. Raven’s, that in the ways of God, He would allow the world to wear itself out.
JT It is in our favour that the power of the world is weakened.
WB-t Does not the thought of grace carry with it exposure, not for condemnation but for mercy?
JT Yes, and it teaches us, “that, having denied impiety and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, and justly, and piously in the present course of things”, Titus 2:12. How important it is that whilst we maintain [p. 274] separation, we hold a right spirit, we maintain the spirit suitable to the dispensation. One feels Satan is endeavouring, inasmuch as the character of the dispensation has been revived, to nullify it in us.
RSS The military spirit is seen in Peter when he took the sword and cut off the ear of the high priest’s servant. It was fleshly activity.
JT Following on that he denied the Lord.
MLH Will you speak a word in regard to the Lord’s direction to His disciples to take the sword? “He that has none, let him sell his garment, and buy a sword”, Luke 22:36.
JT It has to be read in the spirit of things rather than in the letter. They say, “here are two swords”, Luke 22:38. That was enough. They did not seize the thought. It was a moment like Jacob’s trial, between the time of the Lord’s apprehension and His resurrection. They were left exposed and they would not only need a sword, but a purse. It was to emphasise in their minds the exposure that was coming on until the Lord rejoined them. He did rejoin them we may say, from heaven, and so I think it would be well if we could see the heavenly side of things in this book, because it is that. It is not like Chronicles, the resumption of things on earth, which, in a way, the second of Acts suggests. The second of Acts is not the full Christian position. It is more like Chronicles; that is, there was a public vindication of the disciples there, and of Christ. The Spirit came publicly and sat upon them. It was God’s vindication of Christ and of the disciples. “And having come”, He says, “He (the Spirit) will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment” (John 16:8) the demonstration was something public; but you do not get that exactly in Kings. It is more the heavenly side.
MLH I would like to ask for your thought in regard to the greatness of man, which is now being [p. 275] brought out in a special manner, tending to remove the thought of dependence upon God. I was thinking of the “Titanic”; they said it was unsinkable. Man has entirely got beyond the place of dependence.
JT That is a fact, and it all goes with what is of antichrist, and so it is for us to set forth in a practical way the true order of man, the “new man”. The shittim wood in the wilderness represents this. It is what you are in the presence of men. You can sustain what is of God in the presence of contrariety. You are content to be nothing. Paul said the apostles were “become as [the] offscouring of the world, [the] refuse of all, until now” (1 Corinthians 4:13); but, although that, he maintained sedulously every right of Christ, every item of God’s testimony. That is the kind of man he was. He is the representative man in Christianity. Before men it is the shittim wood, but then he says, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2. That is another idea, it is not a question of maintaining things, but of dignity and glory. So it is the man in Christ with whom we have to deal in these chapters, thus the cedar is the prominent feature. It is in the consciousness of being the cedar that one can be little in the world.
HG I was thinking of the cedar and shittim wood in regard to Hebrews 10, whether being entitled to go into the holiest indicates your dignity with God, and then you are prepared to go outside the camp. As regards things here, you are prepared to be small.
JT It is, inside the veil, outside the camp. The littleness that one can accept outside is really in proportion to his apprehension of his dignity inside. That is to say, the cedar inside is reflected in the shittim wood outside, but the shittim wood, whilst little, is morally great, and that is what is needed outside.
GWW Why do you say the shittim wood is outside?
JT [p. 276] What I mean is that the wilderness position is before men. The tabernacle in the wilderness represents typically what is before men. It was comparatively small, outwardly, but what was inside was great. Of course there was that in the tabernacle which was not visible outside. I am speaking of the woods in a general way.
WB-t Is your thought that the shittim wood sets forth Christ in us, and the cedar we in Christ?
JT I would say more, “I know a man in Christ”, 2 Corinthians 12:2.
Ques Why does he say fourteen years ago?
JT Because it was so very special. Of course we, as Christians, are all men in Christ. We are in Christ, every Christian really, but to know “a man in Christ” is the great point. Paul speaks of it in that way. I know such a man, he says, “(whether in [the] body I know not, or out of the body I know not, God knows;) such [a one] caught up to [the] third heaven”, 2 Corinthians 12:2. We should be exercised so as to be able to speak like that in some way. It was an extraordinary experience that Paul referred to, one that would scarcely be accorded to all men in Christ, but it was an experience that a man in Christ had; not an apostle, but a man in Christ.
JS Would you say that was a psalm which Paul had matured for fourteen years?
JT That is a very good suggestion.
RSS It was an experience he had gone through fourteen years before.
JT And he had kept it all that time.
RSS Probably he kept it to himself, too!
LM None of the sweetness of it had been lost.
HG You say all Christians are in Christ as a matter of light. Do you distinguish between “[There is] then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus” (Romans 8:1) for example, and the “man in Christ” in Corinthians? I thought that in Romans it was a transference from Adam to Christ merely, but when [p. 277] you come to Corinthians there was a subjective work, so that man was really built up in Christ.
JT Yes; in Corinthians it says: “If any one [be] in Christ [there is] a new creation, the old things have passed away” (2 Corinthians 5:17); but you notice in Romans 8 it is, “There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus”. It is not, to you that are in Christ Jesus, but ‘to those in Christ Jesus’; whoever they may be. It is abstract in that way. They are removed from condemnation; then he goes on to expound, that Christ coming in the likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us (there, it is not “in those” but “in us”) who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit. He shows how the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled, but it does not say “in us” and stop, but “in us who do not walk according to flesh, but according to Spirit”, Romans 8:4. “A man in Christ” refers to a state wholly outside our responsible or wilderness life.
WB There are three materials spoken of in this chapter. One is stone, another cedar, and the third gold. These are each very prominent in connection with the house.
JT I think what you suggested a moment ago, ought to be dwelt on a little, namely, what Hiram represents, because it is a question of the supply of what is needed. We want to get to the heavenly position. The revival of the truth is to that end. It is not only that it is a dispensation of grace, but it is a dispensation marked by what is heavenly. Hence the supply that is needed is men in Christ.
GWW What is at issue at the present moment is that the Spirit is raising a witness as to the greatness of what is heavenly, and Satan at once comes in, with other tremendous influences, in order that he might nullify the Spirit’s witness in the souls of God’s people. Therefore he seeks to introduce what would be destructive of the heavenly position, by means of socialism, nationalism, military prowess, and all that sort of thing, that he might fight against the re-establishment of the heavenly position in our souls.
JT So you need to have the idea of a man in Christ.
AP Paul’s name means “little one” but that is not mentioned of a man in Christ.
JT That stated his position outwardly, he was little. I have no doubt the reference to the name in Ephesians is to call attention to that: “I, Paul”, but a man in Christ is not little. He is great. “Of such [a one] I will boast, but of myself (that is to say, what he was here in the presence of men) I will not boast, unless in my weaknesses”, 2 Corinthians 12:5. He maintained his outward smallness.
GAT If a young convert were to ask what you mean by a man in Christ, how would you explain?
JT It is a question, as our brother remarked a moment ago, of mental transference. It must be through the mind, because the mind is a sort of eye through which you receive light. You see, you are no longer regarded as in Adam, you are in Christ. It is a matter of light. But then there is the work of God, which corresponds with this. “If any one [be] in Christ [there is] a new creation”, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
WB-t Is there any suggestion of it in Hiram?
JT Any one who loves Christ and the saints has the Spirit, and so is in Christ. As regards how you arrive at it, it is through the mind. One has to receive light as to God’s pleasure about him. It is a matter of what God has effected, but there is the Spirit, and the proof of the possession of the Spirit is, that you love Christ, and, to make it simpler still, the proof that you love Christ is, that you love His [p. 279] people. This is the subjective evidence that you are in Christ.
WB-t I was thinking as to Hiram, that he “always loved David” (1 Kings 5:1) in the first place, and in the next place, he recognised that God had raised up David’s son as king over this great people, and thirdly he provided material suitable for the house which Solomon purposed to build. I was wondering if there was any suggestion in Hiram of a man in Christ.
JT I think there is. He loved David.
Ques Is it really 1 Corinthians 13 apart from love I am nothing?
JT Quite so. Apart from love there is no evidence of “cedar”, and you are utterly useless for the building.
GAT If I want to prove to myself that I am a man in Christ I can know it by the fact that I love Him and His people. If I have not respect or affection for God’s people there is no proof that I am in Christ.
JT No, and then you have no supply. These things go together. You know you have the Spirit because you love the Lord’s people; that being a proof that you love Christ, and hence you have supply, in a measure at least.
WB-t It says in Ezekiel 28, speaking of the king of Tyrus, “Thou wast upon the holy mountain of God”, Ezekiel 28:14. I was thinking of the view one gets from the mount of God, and of the word “Remember therefore whence thou art fallen”, Revelation 2:5. There is the idea of falling in Ezekiel in connection with the king of Tyre.
JT Yes. In 1 Corinthians there is a great deal said about love, and the thirteenth chapter I think is most convicting, in that it shuts everyone out who does not love. “I am nothing”, 1 Corinthians 13:2. Without love I am nothing. The Lord Jesus was “cast away indeed as worthless by men”, 1 Peter 2:4. He was nothing in their account; He was no material for them. Turning the thing around, one who has not love is worthless in God’s account; so that love is the great thing, and therefore the importance of the remark, “Hiram always loved David”, 1 Kings 5:1. Such an one has supplied material for the house.
BTF Is the point, that what king Hiram supplied typically was purely Christ, and hence we should supply that as men in Christ?
JT That is the only material that is of use, hence you like to be a man in Christ in your consciousness. It is as men in Christ we are taken account of in connection with the new system.
AFM If one is a man in Christ, is he able to supply all this material?
JT Hiram did not supply everything, that is quite clear; but what marks him is, that he is a man of supply.
RSS There is another element in connection with being in Christ which is very important. You touched on it a moment ago. “If any one [be] in Christ [there is] a new creation”, 2 Corinthians 5:17. The enemy cannot touch this. It is to that order of things you would direct our attention now.
JT That is what we want to arrive at, something that is outside the range of the flesh. It is in this way you come to what is heavenly. I believe these chapters present what is heavenly. It is not here, as in Chronicles, that Solomon builded a temple on the site located by David. David’s headship and wisdom are more accentuated in Chronicles. The grace of the dispensation is in evidence in Kings; also, wisdom and all that goes with headship is in Solomon, rather than in David in Kings, so it is Solomon’s work here. There is nothing said about David’s pattern, or his foundation. It is what Solomon does. That is to say, it is Christ as the [p. 281] heavenly Man, I apprehend, and the order of things He brings us into.
HG The cedar suggests the heavenly. You get the olive here too, so that we have the spiritual as well as the heavenly. They go together in the “man in Christ”. I was thinking of the Sidonians; none had skill to hew like the Sidonians, and one feels what a mighty hewer Paul was; see, for instance, the first epistle to the Corinthians; how he attacks all that is opposed to what is spiritual and heavenly. They were very earthly, reigning as kings, and very carnal, but at the end he can present in himself, and no doubt in the Corinthians too, men who were in Christ and who were thus contributory of what is heavenly and spiritual. Is that the idea?
JT That is very fine, 2 Corinthians develops the idea of a man in Christ. First, “If any one [be] in Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:17) in the fifth chapter, and then he brings forward himself in the twelfth chapter as the full expression of a man in Christ. We arrive in that way at the idea. We have first the date of the building of the temple, then the dimensions, and then the fact of the chambers, showing the point of view here. It is a dwelling-place that is presented to us.
RSS It is remarkable that these small dwelling-places or chambers are spoken of first.
JT I think the fact is suggestive of what is in the mind of the Spirit in the chapter.
WB Hebrews speaks of the babes being unskilful in the word of righteousness. They do not attain to that, but the man in Christ does, illustrative of the Sidonians.
JT Quite so. Paul, as was remarked, was a good hewer. The second letter to the Corinthians develops the idea of a man in Christ.
Ques Have you the idea of a man in Christ in 2 Corinthians 12:15: “I shall most gladly spend [p. 282] and be utterly spent for your souls, if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved?”
JT That shows the character. He was prepared to spend and to be spent; although not loved, he loved abundantly.
LTF Why were the chambers not fastened to the house?
JT The house was to be intact. It has to be regarded as a separate idea in our souls. Here it is the divine dwelling. It is the “Father’s house” really. The Lord says, “In my Father’s house there are many abodes” (John 14:2) but the house has to be apprehended by itself.
JLJ Say a word as to those three chambers, one five cubits broad, the second six, and the third seven. What is the difference?
JT The third being seven cubits broad refers, I suppose, to heaven. The gradations may be regarded, perhaps, as beginning with that which refers to the nations, and then what refers to Israel, and to ourselves.
GWW In connection with your remark as to the building, in John’s writings, in which he in such a remarkable way unfolds the Father’s house, it is noticeable how often you get the words “abide” and “dwell”.
JT A point in his writings is that we have heavenly enjoyment now.
GWW Hence the importance of abiding in Christ or with Him, if we are to be of service in the testimony.
WB-t Why are the cherubim made of olive wood?
JT The olive, I think, refers to what is spiritual. That which is seen is temporal, that which is not seen is eternal, and the things that are not seen are spiritual things. In the tabernacle it was shittim wood, pointing to the durability of things in a scene [p. 283] of contrariety. But the second Man is out of heaven, and all is of a spiritual order now. In Luke it says they were terrified and afraid because they thought they had seen a spirit, and the Lord says, “a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having”, Luke 24:39. It was not a spirit, it was real humanity that was there in Him. It was important that they should be assured of His humanity; but in John we get what is more in keeping with the olive. In John 20 the point is not exactly that He was a Man, but the order of the humanity in Him. He appeared in the midst, in spite of the fact that the doors were shut. It was a spiritual order of Man.
WB-t I notice you seem to be connecting durability with the tabernacle and spirituality with the temple.
JT Things are spiritual. Paul emphasises this in writing to the Corinthians. “For who of men hath known the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Thus also the things of God knows no one except the Spirit of God”, 1 Corinthians 2:11. And furthermore, “we have the mind of Christ”, 1 Corinthians 2:16. All that goes with the temple. In the next chapter he says: “Do ye not know that ye are [the] temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwells in you?”, 1 Corinthians 3:16. It is in connection with the Spirit, and I have no doubt the olive in the cherubim and the doors point to this. Compare also Ephesians 2:19 - 22.
BTF What is the difference between boards in the tabernacle, and stones in the temple?
JT The boards in the tabernacle stood upright they refer to the saints here in testimony. The sockets of silver in which they were set, represent redemption, the work of Christ. The boards stand upright in the energy of life; they were bound together with a bar, which would suggest unity. That is what is before men. Whereas the stone is not seen as set in silver, it is a question of what we [p. 284] are as of Christ. It is not a question of redemption here. Peter had said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, Matthew 16:16. It was a question of the kind, the order of man there, and then the Lord replies, “Thou art Peter”. That is to say, he was a stone, of the Rock; he was of that kind.
BTF You refer to something formed by the Spirit, and it was brought in without any sound, so to speak.
JT That is what is said here.
EJW The stone would seem to bring in the thought of divine workmanship, whilst it was not noticed in connection with the boards so much. That is, there was the excavating and the hewing; a great deal of work is seen in connection with stones to prepare them for their position in the divine structure, and I thought that would bring before us the formative work of God in us, for what we are to be in the assembly;
JT Yes, it says that here: “And the house, when it was being built, was built of stone entirely made ready before it was brought thither; so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was being built”.
EJW Hewing was spoken of, “hewed stones”, stones that a good deal of work had been spent upon.
RML It speaks also of “costly stones”.
JT In chapter 5:17, it says, “And the king commanded, and they brought great stones, costly stones, hewn stones, to lay the foundation of the house. And Solomon’s builders and Hiram’s builders and the Giblites hewed them, and prepared timber and stones to build the house”. So that all the preparation of the stone is done before it is brought in. It is a question really of what we are in a spiritual sense. “Yourselves also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house”, 1 Peter 2:[p. 285] 5.
HG The stones suggest the one new man in the second of Ephesians, and then the building together for a habitation of God, because that has involved a tremendous amount of hewing in secret: the absolute abolishing of the Jew and Gentile, or, if you like, the English and German which is rather more practical just now, and bringing them together in one new man, forming a structure in which God as Father is known, and in which He dwells.
GAT In the scripture now before us, the stones are brought to the building.
JT That is also how Peter presents it. Peter is specially qualified to give us light about stones.
GAT In Peter, as we had last night, the stones come, here they are brought by others. I want to see the difference.
JT Movement, as in Peter, is the evidence of life. It is a remarkable figure, because ordinarily a stone does not suggest life. As I said, Peter is the one to whom to go for the idea of a stone, because that was what he was himself. It is different from the idea of a board. David was anointed and raised up on high. God did that. But then he was a psalmist, and it is the psalmist who provides the psalms and the temple service. One who is a stone can give us an account of stones. In Matthew it is “Thou art Peter”, Whereas in John his name is Peter, because in the latter it is a question of Christ being the last Adam, whereas in the former Christ is seen as Builder. So He speaks of what Peter was; namely, a stone, and so Peter in his letter opens up to us what marks a stone. He calls attention to the need of laying aside certain things, and of growing up to salvation and then says, “To whom coming”, 1 Peter 2:4. So instead of being brought, in Christianity we come, showing there is spiritual energy; and in coming we are said to be stones. We are being built up a spiritual house.
[p. 286] WCR It is a living structure He is building. It says “living stones”.
JT And then he goes on to say, “a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices”, 1 Peter 2:5.
EJW Do you not think we get both coming and being brought in the New Testament? It seems to me here the stones are brought because the great point is the greatness of the builder; it points to Solomon’s work, the ability and wisdom of Solomon to build that which was in the mind of God. In that way it is the divine side, which surely we also get in the New Testament. In Matthew 16 the Lord says, “I will build”; then we have our side, which is Peter; “To whom coming”. It seems to me in these chapters it is the divine side; that is, Christ the Builder, and the material that He builds, and how that material is provided.
Ques What were the great and costly stones?
JT That is just what we are speaking of. They refer to what we are. We are little outside, but we must not overlook that we are great in the Lord’s account inside, and we are costly. See the Lord’s account inside, and we are costly. See what we cost! The apostle, in speaking to the elders at Ephesus, said, “the assembly of God, which he has purchased with the blood of his own”. A strong appeal to them, showing what we cost; “the blood of his own”, Acts 20:28.
HG Peter, speaking of stones, says, “Ye have been redeemed, not by corruptible [things, as] silver or gold, ... but by precious blood ... [the blood] of Christ”, 1 Peter 1:18 - 19.
GWW There is a thought in Chronicles to which I do not think we get any reference in Kings at all; that is, David provided an immense amount of silver “to overlay the walls of the houses”, 1 Chronicles 29:4. So if you have cedar wood overlaid with gold, you have also to make place somewhere for an immense amount of [p. 287] silver.
JT The fact that it is omitted here would point to what we have been saying, that here it is the heavenly side of things.
GWW Yes, and so the difference between Chronicles and Kings is interesting. In Chronicles we get something a little more analogous to what you have in connection with the tabernacle, and a great deal is said about the silver.
AFM There is also a veil in Chronicles, but not in Kings.
JT How great is the thought of being “great stones” and “costly stones!” It is not a small idea. The greater we are as before God the more humble we shall be, and content with littleness outwardly, and suffering and reproach. The Lord has great thoughts as a Builder, and He uses great things to accomplish His great thoughts. These “great stones” are Christians typically.
AFM I was going to ask if you were connecting the “laying aside” of Peter with the stone squaring of the fifth chapter here?
JT That is implied no doubt; there is to be a laying aside certain things. We are not suited for the building with those things. They have to be laid aside. Peter is like a stonesquarer. The word “stonesquarer” is a peculiar word. Here I suppose it refers to some people, in some particular locality marked by that particular craft, but they are essential mechanics in Christianity, those who square the stones. The building requires stones that fit in.
AFM The idea is that the stones coming, have to be builded together.
JT We are to fit in one with another.
BTF When formed by the Spirit of God the stone takes its place very quietly in the building.
JT Yes, there is no noise. That is a good point. Noise is not a feature of [p. 288] the building.
LM The thought in having the stones squared is that they may rest close together.
HG There was not much noise when the great and costly stone, Saul of Tarsus, was brought into the structure.
JT The Lord was the Stonesquarer; then Ananias came in after.
RML Ananias took him by the hand, there was no need of mortar. There was a bond of love formed.
JT Ananias said, “Arise and get baptised, and have thy sins washed away”, (things had to be laid aside) “calling on his name”, Acts 22:16. There you get a great stone. He is now fit for the building. I suggested chapter 7 to be read because it shows the vastness of the domain of glory, the heavenly system of things. It is not limited to Christianity. We come into it now by faith. It is really a system of unseen things into which we are brought, as in Hebrews 12, what we “have come” to. It is a faith system yet, only we get the good of it. As was remarked, John emphasises the idea of dwelling; he brings in heavenly things and makes them available to us now in the principle of them.
LTF What would you call now the house Solomon built?
JT What we enjoy together in a spiritual way. Paul says, “God’s dispensation, which [is] in faith”. That remark is found in 1 Timothy 1:4, which speaks of the house. The word “dispensation” involves the “house”. Hence the letter to Timothy is to teach us how to behave in it, and I think in the house of God we get anticipatively the good of all this heavenly system.
And as regards the seventh chapter, I think the house in the forest of Lebanon would point especially to what is heavenly. The windows were placed rank against rank in the house in the forest of Lebanon. Evidently things were transparent.
WB-[p. 289] t There seems to be the thought of judgment. It is the place of judgment.
JT That is a necessary adjunct to the system. You must have that.
WB-t There is a great deal of light.
JT In the house of the forest of Lebanon windows are rank against rank, a great deal of light admitted, whereas in the temple all the light was inside. What was outside is rigidly excluded, but in the other house apparently things are open, and light is admitted.
RSS And what about the house for the daughter of Pharaoh? Does that suggest the Gentile?
JT I think it suggests a special place for the assembly.
RSS Taken out of the Gentiles?
JT I think in that way, in the Colossian sense.
GAT Say a little more about the porch of judgment.
JT It is needed because the mediatorial system of things is in view, and whilst the conditions exist to which it applies, you must have judgment.
MLH What is your thought in regard to the forest?
JT No doubt a lot of cedars, a class of people outside of the flesh. That is where Christ lives, so to speak, in relation to such men as that. The greatness and grandeur of the heavenly system of things are in view here. Hebrews 12 shows what we have come to; we have come “to [the] spirits of just [men] made perfect” (Hebrews 12:23); it is wonderful to be surrounded with such. And we have come to the assembly of the first-born who are registered in heaven. Not one man in Christ merely, but myriads of them.
WCR Is that suggested in the forest?
JT I thought so.
AR It is right to have windows in a place [p. 290] like that.
GWW In connection with judgment here, it is more the spirit of discernment. We must not always think that because it is a throne of judgment it is a throne of condemnation. It is the place where the one sits who has ability to discern. In the place of judgment you have set forth what is according to God and how He views things.
WB-t It is quite remarkable in connection with Solomon’s judgment of the two women that claimed the one child, the one woman who lied about the child does not appear to be punished, yet we find Israel feared the king because of the judgment wherewith he had ruled. The real mother gets the child.
RSS Is the throne in connection with the assembly, with the house of God? That is, we recognise there is now a throne of judgment, to which we can come, is that the thought? We have difficulties in regard to things that arise in the meeting, and it is a great thing to know there is a throne of judgment we can come to in regard to it.
JT Yes, quite. It is ever present.
WCR I want to ask about the cherubim made of olive. Would they suggest the guarding care of the Spirit?
JT That is what I thought. They are not made of shittim wood nor of cedar. It is not a question of the greatness of man. It here shows the greatness of the Spirit guarding things. Sometimes there is the suggestion of failure, and our not coming up to our responsibility, but the Spirit of God is here. The cherubim, as you say, were made of olive, and while the Spirit of God is here we cannot admit for a moment that things are let go; they are maintained for God.
WCR It is not men that maintain them exactly. It is the Spirit.
JT We must make room for the Spirit. He [p. 291] acts through men, but the point in the olive wood is, that things are in the hands of the Spirit.
RSS Before closing I would like to ask how the Lord’s attitude in Revelation 2 and 3 accords with what we have just been looking at here, in regard to the throne? We have been saying that this is the period of grace, yet in those scriptures in Revelation we have the Lord in a character which led John to fall at His feet as dead, and it refers to this period.
JT Notice in chapter 7: “And his house where he dwelt had another court within the porch, which was of the like work. And he made, like to this porch, a house for Pharaoh’s daughter, whom Solomon had taken”. It would appear that the house of Pharaoh’s daughter accorded with the porch of judgment. That is, the Lord, taking the place of judge in the assemblies, would maintain things aright. Things had got out of accord with the porch of judgment, so to speak, and the addresses to the assemblies would be to rectify this, and I think, in principle, they were rectified. The assembly of Philadelphia would show that the Lord had brought about recovery. There was in that assembly an agreement with Himself. He was the Holy One and True, and they kept the word of His patience, did not deny His name, and they had a little power. That is, there was a recovery of the main features of the house in that assembly; but surely that was His own doing. It was no doubt brought about by the word of prophecy, as we have been saying, but He brought it about.
RSS It is an aspect of which we do not take sufficient account in regard to ourselves, and especially in regard to the responsible side of things in the house of God. Slackness is apt to come in, and we forget the Lord is moving about amongst the assemblies, and the character in which He is presented.
[p. 292] I think it ought to have a very salutary effect upon us to know that we have to do with the Lord in that way, His eyes are as a flame of fire and out of whose mouth went a sharp two-edged sword.
JT There is what He says and then what the Spirit says; the latter corresponding doubtless with the olive. The Spirit remains, and, as here, He speaks. He is not silent, like David who did not say anything to Adonijah. The Spirit of God will never be silent in the presence of the spirit of antichrist. He speaks to the assemblies, and it is encouraging to see that in the end the Lord says “I, Jesus”. Instead of sending John, or speaking of John, he says, “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies”, Revelation 22:16. It is as if He drew nearer to them, and formally recognises the assembly. Then the Spirit and the bride say “Come”. The Spirit had, so to say, carried things through, and brought about a response to the Lord at the end.
RSS That is very encouraging.
AP Are the addresses in Revelation connected with the judgment seat of Christ?
JT It is that He is in the character of a judge, not on the throne, but walking in the midst of the assemblies. Nothing passes His notice. He sees everything.