AS IS THE HEAVENLY (5)
AS IS THE HEAVENLY (5)
JT It may be well to mention that the heavenly man is great not only because of his position and office; he is great morally. The heavenly takes precedence of the earthly on moral grounds rather than official, so the reference to Isaac in Hebrews is that he blessed both his sons, Jacob and Esau. That is, the heavenly dispensation, as we may call it, is unlimited in the extent of its influence and blessing. He blessed not only Jacob, but also Esau. I thought it well to call attention to that, because it suggests to us the dispensation in which we are. John the baptist referred to Christ, saying, “He must increase, but I must decrease. He who comes from above is above all”, John 3:30 - 31. I mention that in connection with this chapter because, as you will observe, it is devoted wholly to Isaac. Therefore, it is typically the present dispensation, and I think the Lord will enable us to see the features of the dispensation in the facts presented to us here.
BTF It is Christ personally here.
JT Yes, Isaac is Christ risen and exalted to heaven, the heavenly man; so that he is not marked by strife, but he overcomes evil with good. That is the principle of the heavenly.
WCR Yieldingness seems to mark him.
JT Yes, and yet he triumphs. He secures his point. I think it is the character of the dispensation. You give way but triumph in it. You overcome evil with good.
WCR You would say it is the spirit of the kingdom. I mean the character in which I come out in the kingdom would be that spirit.
JT Yes, the heavenly rule. I suppose the gospel of Matthew indicates it in some sense, but the [p. 425] heavens ruling is founded on moral grounds. It is not an arbitrary rule.
BTF There are many details in the chapter that we would find it hard to associate with Christ.
JT It is the main outline of the chapter that we are considering here. He is not to go down into Egypt. That is, God makes provision for the maintenance of the new system. It is not to be dependent on Egypt. It is to be preserved from Egyptian influence. He is to remain in “this land”; that is, Canaan. Those who have part in the heavenly administration should be zealous to avoid Egyptian influences.
WCR What do we understand by the famine touching him, as a heavenly man?
JT It is, I think, a test; both in Abraham’s case, here, and also in Jacob’s time, it is a test but Isaac is not to be moved by it. He is to sojourn in the land.
LGM He is given to understand that he will increase.
JT Yes, it says, “Jehovah appeared [you will notice there are two appearings here, the first is at Gerar] to him, and said, Go not down to Egypt: dwell in the land that I shall tell thee of. Sojourn in this land; and I will be with thee and bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries; and I will perform the oath which I swore unto Abraham thy father. And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven, [there is nothing said about the sand of the seashore here] and unto thy seed will I give all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth bless themselves”
WB-t Why is the sand of the seashore left out?
JT Because it is wholly the heavenly side, I think, here. That is what we are occupied with now. The earthly will come in in time. We hold to it in [p. 426] faith, but for the moment it is the heavenly side about which we are concerned.
WB-t I notice that in the third verse God said, “Sojourn in this land; and I will be with thee”; and in the twenty-eighth verse Abimelech and those with him said, “we saw certainly that Jehovah is with thee”.
JT Yes, it is quite clear that in order to have God with us we must maintain the position in which He has set us.
GAT Naomi did not stand the test. There was a famine in the land, and she and her husband went out. The great danger, if the test comes to us, is that we are liable to turn to Egypt for support.
JT Yes, whereas there is abundant supply with God. We must not be concerned about the external. It all depends on God being with us.
HG So Isaac sowed in the land and he reaped a hundredfold, but in the land the idea is that you maintain your heavenly position.
JT The hundredfold here is the opposite of famine. God was with Christ. It says, “who went through [all quarters] doing good, ... because God was with him” (Acts 10:38) and so as we hold to the position he has given to us, He is with us, and He blesses us, and we are a blessing.
GAT Now bring that down to our present walk. Supposing there was famine amongst us; that in any local meeting we felt there was a famine, how would you set about to get the good of these things?
JT You see here how he is to hold to the position God has given him. You do not surrender the position on account of the outward circumstances. You hold to the position and God will come in for you. Many things might be said of course with regard to prayer, but the point is to hold to your position. Do not surrender that. Do not admit a need of human help. Do not seek human [p. 427] help.
HG Would you say that in a certain sense it was famine when Paul said, “At my first defence no man stood with me, but all deserted me”, 2 Timothy 4:16. It was famine as regards human support and the brethren. “But the Lord stood with [me], and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made, and all [those of] the nations should hear”. The testimony was maintained. In fact, even though he was alone in a certain sense, he maintained the ground; is that the idea?
JT That is the idea. God will not allow anything else to prevail now save the heavenly. That is what increases, so as we hold to that in the principle of it in our souls, there will be increase according to God. That is the increase we should desire. There may be increase of another kind, but it will not stand or prevail. The increase of today is heavenly. It is the heavenly man that prevails. That is what John establishes in speaking of the Lord: “He must increase” he says, “I must decrease”, John 3:30. He must increase. That is what you hold to in your soul, and as you hold to it God comes in for you. There is nothing else for it. God will not allow anything else, so the point for us in that sense is to hold to the position God has assigned to us, as He directs Isaac here. “Dwell in the land”, He says, “that I shall tell thee of: ... and I will be with thee and bless thee” Ephesus left her first love, which involved her place, as indicated in Rebecca, with Christ in heaven. She left that. Any increase under those circumstances shall not abide. Increase comes in maintaining the heavenly position.
CHB It is the day of small things, and you count upon God, and do not turn to human expedients.
JT You hold to heavenly principles, and as you do there will be increase. It may not be such as you might wish naturally, but it is that [p. 428] which abides.
LGM This was an opportunity for real exercise of faith.
JT That is just what it is. It is faith in the way in which it holds to the position God has assigned to us.
GWH With the increase of divine light are you always tested?
JT I think so. As we get light we are tested as to whether it is made good to us. Great light had been vouchsafed here. Isaac had a great place. He was Abraham’s son. As the twenty-fifth chapter shows, Abraham had sent away all the children of his other wives so that Isaac should be alone. He gave to all the others gifts, but “all that he had” he gave to Isaac. They should not inherit with Isaac. He must be alone. Now it was for him to hold to that. That is the position God has given to us; and as we hold to it I believe we shall find that God increases us.
LGM Rebecca came in for her portion of the inheritance with Isaac?
JT Certainly. God increases us because, as John says, “He [Christ] must increase”, John 3:30. The heavenly must increase; so, as we hold to it, we gain in that way.
BTF Are you referring to our position in Christ?
JT Yes, in heaven. It is what we are called to. We are to occupy the ground in the light of our heavenly position, and we are not to move away from that. Be “not moved away”, it says, “from the hope of the glad tidings”. We are not to be moved away. The Colossians were in danger of being moved away; as moved away, you miss the divine gain consequent on the heavenly position at the present time.
BTF We are to be in the world, but not of the world.
HG Paul speaks of how all in Asia had turned [p. 429] away from him; but he encourages Timothy to “be strong in the grace which [is] in Christ Jesus. And the things thou hast heard of me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, such as shall be competent to instruct others also”, 2 Timothy 2:1 - 2. Is that the thought, no matter how difficult the way, provision is maintained for the teaching of what is heavenly?
JT I think 2 Timothy is provision for the maintenance of the heavenly light, although in greatly reduced circumstances. It was like a trust handed on to others. It was precious, and it has come to us today; so our increase according to God depends on our adherence to and maintenance of it. All that were in Asia turned away, and so there could be no further increase there according to God. As you said, Paul says, “the Lord stood with [me]”, 2 Timothy 4:17. “Luke alone is with me. Take Mark, and bring [him] with thyself, for he is serviceable to me for ministry”, 2 Timothy 4:11. Each of those men was with Paul, and this was evidently because he was supporting the testimony. He says, “Alexander the smith did many evil things against me ... he has greatly withstood our words”, 2 Timothy 4:14 - 15. The issue was really the testimony.
GAT That is a good remark you just made, that they were not with Paul simply on account of what they thought of him personally, but rather that they supported him on account of the testimony. We are affected by that. If I like a brother, perhaps I support him a little better than if I do not, but I should support him whether I like him or not, if he is standing by the testimony of Christ.
JT “Onesiphorus ... has not been ashamed of my chain ... sought me out very diligently, and found [me]”, 2 Timothy 1:16 - 17. That is, Onesiphorus was interested in what Paul stood for. There was great reproach attached to him, but Onesiphorus was not ashamed of Paul’s chain; so “the Lord”, he said, “grant mercy to the house of Onesiphorus”, 2 Timothy 1:16. He sought out [p. 430] Paul and was not ashamed of his chain. Each of those individuals in 2 Timothy stands with Paul to support what he held. That is, they supported what was heavenly, and it is in that way the increase comes, for the heavenly must increase.
LGM The Spirit of God would have us apprehend our heavenly calling, and we are left here to answer to it in the sphere of responsibility.
JT You hold it in your soul, acting on the principle of it in relation to the saints; and so you have God with you. The testimony here is, “I will be with thee and bless thee”; and then Jehovah goes on to say, “for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries; and I will perform the oath which I swore unto Abraham thy father. And I will multiply thy seed as the stars of heaven”. These are promises. These are the things that we rely upon, as heavenly men. Faith relies upon them, and as you hold to them, you get increase, God is with you.
WB-t You are encouraging us greatly. There comes a time often in the history of a Christian when there is real famine. He has the feeling that there is a famine. As our brother has pointed out in regard to the apostle Paul: all Asia forsook him, but the Lord stood by him. I see in this chapter, as you are bringing it out, how much there is to encourage one to go on and hold to divine principles.
JT There is indeed much to encourage; because the heavenly must increase. You are with the wind, or rather the wind is with you, so to speak. “A sound out of heaven as of a violent impetuous blowing”, is what came to them at Pentecost. “And filled all the house where they were sitting”, Acts 2:2. That is a token of the power that is with those on this line, so that the point for us is to hold to this line at all costs, even if there be only one, “the Lord stood with [me], and gave me power, that through me the proclamation might be fully made”, 2 Timothy 4:17. The preaching must go on.
GAT Now to bring this down to ourselves practically. If everything in a meeting is going wrong, what you are saying would encourage me to take a stand myself for the testimony in the midst of that confusion; and if I take such a stand God will support me in it.
JT And the stand you take is to be marked by the yieldingness seen in Isaac. If we went over the chapter we should find a certain yieldingness, and yet a cleaving to right principles, to what Abraham had introduced. The Philistines had stopped the wells, but Isaac would unstop them. That is, whatever had gone before that was of God must be maintained. There is weakness, and even failure, seen in his going to the Philistines and in giving way to them as to the wells, but in the main he maintains the truth of his calling.
WRC He calls the wells after the names his father had given them. There was no surrender with him.
JT No, the link with what was of God in the past is maintained.
EGM Referring to our brother’s remark, we sometimes hold to right principles arbitrarily, whereas Isaac was willing to be reduced to nothing, in order that God’s power might be shown.
JT In holding to right principles you have the right spirit, so Paul says “thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life”, 2 Timothy 3:10. The manner of life must be in keeping with the doctrine. It is the manner of life that prevails. You will find the spiritual man always triumphs.
EGM So Isaac withdrew, and withdrew until God found room for him.
JT Rehoboth refers to the Spirit. It is really in resurrection. When surrendering all natural proclivities [p. 432] and sensibilities you will find room by the Spirit on the ground of resurrection.
GAT I think we perhaps have failed in maintaining the right principles in a bad spirit. If I see the right principles I must maintain them with the spirit of Christ. Is that right?
JT That is what God loves. As I was remarking on Lord’s day, it is the spirit of holiness in which Christ is declared to be the “Son of God in power ... . by resurrection of [the] dead”, Romans 1:4.
CHB Is that “holding the truth in love”? Ephesians 4:15.
JT That is what it would involve.
OJO Paul could say, “if even in abundantly loving you I should be less loved”, 2 Corinthians 12:15.
JT Yes, I think Paul’s letters to the Corinthians show us how a heavenly man acts in relation to defection in the assembly, how he acted in regard to the Corinthians. It is the triumph of what is heavenly. It always triumphs. It may go to the wall outwardly, but it triumphs in a moral way.
Rem The Philistines seem to have been a very difficult people to get on with.
JT They were envious, and for this reason, they said, Isaac was mightier than they. They could not stand that. You know what that means I am sure. The religious element feels eclipsed by those who recognise the Spirit. This was evidenced in the last century in what was known as the “Essays and Reviews”. They came out after this heavenly principle had been asserted and maintained. The headship of Christ and the Spirit on earth had been asserted and maintained and the religious leaders were put in the shade, and they felt it. They could not but feel it. “Go from us; for thou art become much mightier than we”. There were feelings similar to this. The promulgation of papal infallibility was an effort to fortify Rome against the power of the truth recovered by the free action of the Holy Spirit.
CHB [p. 433] So it is either carnality or spirituality with us. We are either set for digging the wells, or filling them.
JT Yes, the Philistines, it says, filled the wells with earth. Earthly principles nullify what is heavenly. The time is coming when the heavenly and the earthly shall be in accord. “The heavens ... . shall hear the earth”, Hosea 2:21. That time is coining, but for the moment the heavenly is the point. It is the heavenly truth, and the Philistines would bring in what belongs, perhaps, to another dispensation, the earthly side.
HG What is the point of Isaac denying his wife for fear of his life, and thus coming under the rebuke of Abimelech? I was wondering whether there was a moral teaching in connection with the thought of compromise, of which we are in danger, in view of saving ourselves?
JT I suppose so. Whilst in a general way the chapter shows us the heavenly man, Isaac is not without his defects. There is compromise. That is, he did not admit the whole truth. There was a certain amount of truth in what he said, that she was a sister, being a relative, but the full assembly position is more than that, more than the thought of a sister and brother. It is union really. She is his wife.
LGM Although Isaac was a heavenly man, and generally answered to his heavenly calling, yet he failed in regard to Gerar.
JT He failed in going to the Philistines, and in not confessing typically the full assembly relation I think. A sister, however loved, is not a wife. That is, the mere thought of brotherly relationship is not the full truth. The full truth of the heavenly position is union; the marriage idea. That is the full truth of our position, and short of that we are defective. I think many will admit the thought of [p. 434] brethren, but come short of union. Union perhaps, is the least understood of all truths.
WB-t That is a very important remark.
JF I suppose we are willing to admit union as to the future, but it is not taken account of sufficiently as existing now.
GAT I am a little puzzled that Isaac being a type of Christ, and Rebecca of the church, he should deny her.
JT You cannot strain the type. It is more the general character of the heavenly man; it is more the spirit of the heavenly man in us than Christ personally. You want to see that what God is looking for, is that you should occupy this position, and be possessed of the spirit of the heavenly man.
WJY Is affection the great spiritual significance of union?
JT It involves affection, of course, but on it depends the shining out of Christ in the assembly; the complete reflection of the Man in the woman. “They shall become one flesh”, Genesis 2:24. That is union; so that the female is merged in the male. He “called their name Adam”, Genesis 5:2. It was one idea, and, in order that that one idea should be expressed in the saints now, we must understand union.
JB Is not union an eternal thought; whereas the thought of our being Christ’s brethren could hardly go into eternity, could it?
JT I think it does go into eternity, but it is more what we are to Him, you see, as companions; whereas union involves that there is a representation of Him in us, because we are one flesh. There is only one idea which is man. He “called their name Adam”.
CHB Does the expression “the Christ” cover that?
JT Yes. “So also [is] the Christ”, 1 Corinthians 12:12.
HG In the providence of God it seems, that He [p. 435] allows conditions to come to pass which enable the world to look in on the privacy of our lives, and to discover if there has been the surrender of a heavenly position. Whatever it is, that we fail in, if we are led to judge it, it is gain. After Isaac is recovered, by a rebuke, to his proper position, it is there we get the sowing in the land, the hundredfold, and the Lord blessing him. So present exercises in the world, I think, are really the occasion of investigation with many of us as to how far we are of a truth heavenly men.
JT I think the necessity of the moment requires specially the truth of the heavenly calling. We should be prepared to suffer for the maintenance of the heavenly position. The present situation brings that out, and it appeals to us as to whether we are prepared to suffer for it, for, as we do, I believe the Lord will be with us, and the Lord will bless us.
HG There seems to be a very great gain with Isaac in the way he is spoken of, possession of flocks, and possession of herds, and great store of servants. He “went forward” it says.
JT Reading from the twelfth verse it is; “Isaac sowed in that land, and received in the same year a hundredfold; and Jehovah blessed him. And the man became great and he became continually greater until he was very great”. It was in the land where he had been tested. That is the idea of increase. He must increase. And he had possessions of flocks, possessions of herds, a great number of servants, and the Philistines envied him. That is the position. The big men of the land, those who had been there, and occupied the ground without divine commission or permission envied this man.
WCR Is that the definition of a Philistine?
JT Yes, he is a man that professes to occupy the land, but he is not there by divine calling. He is not called to it. Subsequently it comes to light [p. 436] that he did not get into it through death and resurrection, as the Israelites did; but Abraham did not get into it in that way either, only Abraham was called to it, and Isaac was, whereas the Philistines were not. Divine calling is a great feature of the testimony. “As many as [the] Lord our God may call”, Acts 2:39. The sovereignty of God is seen in it.
HG The Philistine steals what another man has gained by exercise. Abraham brought the water, and then they stole it; which has been done all through.
JT There is an institute in this city that has certain text books that were written by a spiritual man, a man who dug wells. They use his books as text books, but they never were exercised to get things themselves, except to pay the price for printing. The idea is Philistine. Abraham digged the wells; that is exercise. All the light comes in by men that hold to the heavenly position and suffer for it. A Philistine takes that and uses it, adding to himself thereby.
GAT You said something once about working on another man’s capital.
JT That is the principle of it. Of course we are not suffering. I mean to say a spiritual man who has living ministry does not get impoverished by others using it. “Ye have received gratuitously, give gratuitously”, Matthew 10:8. You are only too glad to have them use these things; only the using of them without exercise and the Spirit, indicates what is before us, that men are prominent in connection with the things of God who really have no exercises according to God themselves.
WB-t They bring in earthly things in such a way that the well is stopped. The water here is the Spirit, is it not?
JT If you minister in the power of the Spirit and another takes up what you present, the normal [p. 437] thing is that he should connect it with the Source of it. These people to whom I alluded have not done this. All is connected by them with earthly principles. Hence those that hear them really do not get the water. They do not get to the Source. It is not a spring. Is not that what you have found in your experience?
HG It is very true. Really they are content to use the water that drove the mill eighty years ago, but one desires to be in touch with the water that drives the mill today, a living stream flowing. You want to be in touch with that.
GAT You would not deprive me of the privilege of using what I hear another brother give out; if I go to the source of it myself after I hear it.
JT No; if you hold the thing in power in relation to the source of it; but if you connect it with what is earthly, with an earthly organisation, there is no water at all really, and that is what the modern Philistines do.
WB-t When you say the source of it you have in mind the Spirit, have you not?
JT The Holy Spirit. It says in the sixteenth verse that “Abimelech said to Isaac, Go from us; for thou art become much mightier than we. And Isaac departed thence”. I think that is the principle of the heavenly man. He is not going to contend with people. The area is large; there is plenty of room, so there is no need of contention with regard to this point. So it says; “And Isaac departed thence, and pitched his camp in the valley of Gerar, and dwelt there. And Isaac dug again the wells of water, that they had dug in the days of Abraham his father; and that the Philistines had stopped after the death of Abraham; and he called their names after the names by which his father had called them. And Isaac’s servants dug in the valley, and found there a well of springing water”. I think that word [p. 438] Springing might be translated living. He dug a well in which was found living water.
LGM What do you mean by living water?
JT John 4 develops what the living water is. In the third chapter of John, the Baptist calls attention to the fact that the heavenly man must increase, and then it says: “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things [to be] in his hand”, John 3:35. In the next chapter He speaks to the woman of a fountain of living water, a fountain in herself springing up into eternal life.
BTF In what way would the herdsmen strive for the spring?
JT I Suppose it is the way in which the religious leaders would wrest from us the gain of the Spirit. What you see here is that they do not prevail. They move from one to another until he reaches the well of Rehoboth. That is, the Lord makes room for you.
GAT It is not giving up divine territory or principles, is it?
JT I think not. I think it is the elasticity of divine warfare; you give way as the conqueror. The superiority of the heavenly triumphs. Its superiority becomes manifest.
WJY The Spirit follows the heavenly man.
WCR “A bondman of [the] Lord ought not to contend, but be gentle towards all”, 2 Timothy 2:24. Is that the idea?
JT These first two wells, Esek and Sitnah, refer to opposition and strife, whereas Rehoboth is room. I think the Lord gives room; as we recognise the assembly there is room for the Spirit. It is really resurrection, I think.
BTF Do you refer to the Philistines as open enemies here?
JT No, it is more the insidious way in which the truth would be wrested from us through earthly minded men. I think that is what is alluded [p. 439] to.
HG There is a point at Rehoboth where in a certain sense the Philistine cannot prevail. I mean to say a man of that stamp can never really follow the present activity of the Spirit. They only strive in a certain sense for what is in a measure past.
JT I do not think they can get beyond Romans, to say the most. They may have an apprehension of Romans, but when you get to Colossians they are finished. Colossians is risen with Christ. I do not suppose a single man in all Christendom understands that, except one who has the Spirit. Unless one has the Spirit and the faith, Colossians is absolutely outside the range of their understanding. Colossians and Ephesians are altogether beyond them. I have no doubt Rehoboth is Colossians and Ephesians. They can proceed no further. As Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, they proceed no further. There is a point beyond which they do not go.
WJY What is the significance of Isaac always looking for water? He continues digging.
JT Does it not point to the recognition of the Spirit by the heavenly man? That is the one thing he makes prominent.
WJY He needed water to maintain the possessions he had.
GWH That is, if going on in the heavenly position you feel the need of the support of the Spirit.
JT You must have the Spirit. The Lord said: “he abides with you, and shall be in you”, John 14:17. He abides with us for ever. The great thing is to make room for Him.
LGM That is the way you are maintained here as a heavenly man.
JT In Rehoboth earthly minded men have no place. They are absolutely without power when you touch that territory. They know nothing about being risen with Christ. They may know something about “justified by faith” and the gift of the Spirit; they can talk about that, but when you talk of being risen with Christ it is altogether beyond them.
BTF I suppose a certain apprehension of Romans may leave you in the world, but when you come to Colossians you are taken out of the world in your affections?
JT There is plenty of room there, and very few in it. There is no crush there.
GAT When the Lord made room for Isaac then he became fruitful.
JT Yes. It says: “And he called the name of it Rehoboth” which, as we all know, means “room” or “broadways”. And then it says, “For now Jehovah has made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land”. Colossians is the increase of God.
BTF Would you just say a word as to Colossians being fruit for God?
JT It is the increase. The passage in the second chapter “in whom also ye have been circumcised with circumcision not done by hand, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of the Christ; buried with him in baptism, in which ye have been also raised with [him] through faith of the working of God who raised him from among the dead. And you, being dead in offences and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, he has quickened together with him, having forgiven us all the offences; having effaced the handwriting in ordinances which [stood out] against us, which was contrary to us, he has taken it also out of the way, having nailed it to the cross; having spoiled principalities and authorities, he made a show of them publicly, leading them in triumph by it”, Colossians 2:11 - 15. There is complete victory over the enemies. Then he says: “Let none therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in matter of feast, or new moon, or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come;
[p. 441] but the body [is] of Christ. Let no one fraudulently deprive you of your prize, doing his own will, in humility and worship of angels, entering into things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by the mind of his flesh, and not holding fast the head, from whom all the body, ministered to and united together by the joints and bands, increases with the increase of God”, Colossians 2:16 - 19. That is the idea, that increase is in Colossians. It is not the increase of numbers, mark you! It is increase of God. It is the reflection of Christ in the body. Compare Ephesians 4:16. That is what is in view. It is really the increase of the heavenly. Rehoboth is a very great point. It is Colossians. It is where we touch resurrection and the energy of life. It is the position where there is plenty of room for the affections that God has planted in us. Isaac maketh increase with the increase of God.
CHB The Philistine does not want this position.
JT You see Colossians is to shut him out. The Philistine is the man who would teach philosophy and ceremonialism, enhancing himself by one or the other; whereas the apostle would shut him out and make no room for him, so that the saints should increase according to the increase of God.
WB-s There is no religious distinction; no national distinction; no social distinction; but Christ is all.
JT That is it. That is Rehoboth.
JB It brings Christ in, in the fulness of His position in resurrection. I was thinking that in Colossians it is really the fruit of the Spirit, is it not? The Spirit is hardly mentioned in Colossians.
JT Only once: “Love in [the] Spirit”, Colossians 1:8. It is more the effect of the Spirit in Colossians. The body is made much of. I do not know what you think, but it seems to me this is the point.
HG Yes. As you say, it is the subjective answer to all that Isaac is, which I understand is [p. 442] Colossians, the vessel really capable of displaying all Christ is; so that fruitfulness, and increase, and all that kind of thing are very prominent in Colossians; growing by the true knowledge of God.
GAT If the believer reaches what you are saying now he would be beyond the power of the enemy.
JT “He that has been begotten of God keeps himself and the wicked [one] does not touch him”, 1 John 5:18. That is a corresponding truth.
WB-t Verse 22 says, “and we shall be fruitful in the land”. Is that connected with Rehoboth?
JT I think that leads on to Ephesians, the full position of the assembly in the counsels of God. Ephesians 3 has in view the full position and increase according to God.
WB-t I thought Ephesians was Beer-sheba.
JT I think Beer-sheba refers to Israel; it is the covenant, the oath, and I think it refers to the reinstatement of Israel. We do not want to pass on to that for a moment. I think “fruitful in the land” is Ephesians, the full recognition of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit, the answer to which is Ephesians as far as I understand.
WB-t What we want is fruitfulness. For one’s self, one would like to be a fruitful man.
JT The Ephesians were marked by love for all the saints. I think that is the idea of fruitfulness.
JB Is there not in this verse “and we shall be fruitful in the land” a complete answer to the first verse “there was a famine”. These exercises all result in good; Isaac is fruitful?
JT I think the result of holding to the heavenly position is that the Holy Spirit has room, and there is abundance in the way of ministry and love.
GWH Is there a difference between the headship of Christ in Colossians and in Ephesians?
JT He is Head in virtue of His person [p. 443] in Colossians; in Ephesians He is given to be Head. God gives Him to be Head over all things to the assembly.
HG Would you say also that headship in Ephesians is viewed from a higher altitude than Colossians? His exaltation is emphasised in Ephesians.
JT Quite. In Colossians He is Head of the body; in Ephesians Head to it, Head over all things to the assembly. That is, she has part in the headship in Ephesians; whereas He is her Head in Colossians. Holding the Head is the point there.
JB “All the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge” (Colossians 2:3), being in the body, are derived from the Head.
BTF Do you think Abraham reached a further height than Isaac?
JT I am not sure that he did. I think Isaac is the heavenly position. It is Christianity we are dealing with here, which is dependent upon Christ in heaven, and the heavenly spirit which seems to shine throughout the chapter. Isaac is also dwelling in the land and he is fruitful in the land. It points to Christ risen and glorified, and the Spirit here.
Now in regard to Beer-sheba, what is to be noticed is that the Philistine leaders come back to Isaac that is, he is tested by an overture, as you might say. “And Abimelech, and Ahuzzath his friend, and Phichol the captain of his host went to him from Gerar[these are distinguished men]. And Isaac said to them, Why are ye come to me, seeing ye hate me, and have driven me away from you? And they said, We saw certainly that Jehovah is with thee; and we said, Let there be then an oath between us — between us and thee, and let us make a covenant with thee, that thou wilt do us no wrong, as we have not touched thee, and as we have done to thee nothing but good, and have let thee go in peace; thou art now blessed of Jehovah”. It seems to me they are forced to make this confession, but in making it they make an overture to the heavenly man. It seems to me there is an object-lesson for us here; that, whilst he makes the covenant; that is, he is not going to be vindictive with them in any sense, although greater than they, yet he sends them away from him. It says: “They rose early in the morning, and swore one to another; and Isaac sent them away, and they departed from him in peace”. Isaac is not to be a neighbour of the Philistines. So it would appear the heavenly testimony is preserved throughout the chapter.
WCR Is there any significance in his making them a feast?
JT I think the whole proceeding shows the superiority of Isaac. I am not saying that all was perfect with Isaac; but I think that in general the heavenly testimony was maintained. He hearkened to the word of God, and was thus blessed of Him. He was superior to the Philistines. What you see here, I think, is the greatness of Isaac. The more spiritual one is, the more one can deal with opposers in a magnanimous way. You do not need to hold yourself aloof. A “spring or a well, a quantity of water” is not defiled where an “earthen vessel” would be, Leviticus 11:36. But note that Isaac sends the Philistines away. To refer again to Beersheba, it is the well of the oath. I think it refers to God’s faithfulness. Would you say that?
HG I think so.
JT I think it refers to His faithfulness, that “whatever promises ... in him is the yea, and in him the amen”, 2 Corinthians 1:20. It seems to me that in the assembly there is the guarantee of the fulfilment of God’s covenant in regard to Israel. I think Beer-sheba refers to that, especially in view of the fact that when Jacob went down into Egypt it was here that Jehovah appeared to him, and He says: “I am God, the God of thy father: fear not to go down to Egypt”, Genesis 46:3. That is, Israel’s hopes were secured in a risen Christ, in Isaac. There is one other thought we may not overlook, and that is, Jehovah appeared to Isaac at Beer-sheba. Another appearance I think would point to additional light. It seems to me that all that was connected with the first appearing in Christianity, but what took place at Beer-sheba would point to the faithfulness of God in regard to His promises.
JB Do you mean that the faithfulness of God in regard to His promises will be established in a risen Man in the power of the Spirit?
JT That is what I think. Beer-sheba signifies that, and that testimony is in the assembly, is preserved among the heavenly ones.
WB-s Beer-sheba seems to be outside the land of the Philistines.
JT It is an important point that the believer should be established in the faithfulness of God, and it is used to assure us of His faithfulness. “By two unchangeable things, in which [it was] impossible that God should lie, we might have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold on the hope set before us”, Hebrews 6:18.
AL And you build an altar there.
JT You set up a testimony to your apprehension of that.
AL I suppose that when the Spirit of God fills one’s soul with the light of that one would build an altar there.
JT Yes, the altar is the outward evidence of the light you have in your soul.
WB-t I notice all through this chapter Abraham is referred to. In the first verse there was a famine in Abraham’s days, it says, and now a famine in Isaac’s day: the wells were dug by Abraham, and then God in appearing says “I am the God of Abraham thy father”. Would you say a few words as to the significance of that?
JT I think the prominence given to Abraham refers to what Christ was in the flesh. To Abraham the promises were made. Isaac is Christ risen and glorified. In Beer-sheba God Himself connects the position with Abraham, that He is the God of Abraham, showing His faithfulness. He would be faithful to the promises. But to come to the last verse, it is pitiful to think of these two women being brought in; they are Hittites. “Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Basmath the daughter of Elon the Hittite”. Two Hittite women brought into the household of Isaac. It says, they were a grief of mind to Isaac and Rebecca.
BTF Esau lost the blessing; this shows he was morally unfit for it.
JT It shows the character of the man. In spite of the fact that his grandfather, and he must have known it, had caused the servant to swear that a wife should not be secured for Isaac from among the Amorites or Hittites, Esau deliberately did this thing. It shows the perverseness of the flesh, how directly opposed it is to the will of God.
GAT That is a warning to our young people.
JT I was thinking of that, how easily one may bring in an element, through marriage or associations, that is a grief of mind to Christ and to the saints.
WB-t Then in chapter 28, Esau, seeing that his Hittite wives did not please his father, takes a daughter of Ishmael.
LGM Is the significance of it that where God has wrought great blessing, Satan seeks to come in in some way to disturb it?
JT What strikes you is the perverseness, the impudence, of the flesh. How presumptuous it is! In spite of the plain will of God, emphasised as it was in Isaac’s case, Esau, this child of the flesh,
[p. 447] brings these two women into the household. We all know in dealing with things in the house of God how presumptuous the flesh is, how daring it is, how disregardful of the plain, revealed will of God.
WB-t Esau sold his birthright; he was a profane person; so he would not regard the heavenly side of things.
JT So persons coming into the meetings, participating in them outwardly, see the evidences of the power of God and yet cling to that which is so plainly forbidden in the house of God.
GAT And very often they wonder why the saints have not fellowship with them.
JT Yes.