AS IS THE HEAVENLY (3)
AS IS THE HEAVENLY (3)
JB What is the thought connected with the weaning of Isaac?
JT I suppose it is the soul being made independent of the natural source of supply, but typically, I think it would refer to the Lord as independent of Israel; that is, viewed as entirely in the light of His own person.
EGM Why should this come in as a test to Abraham now?
JT The trial of our faith is “much more precious than of gold which perishes”, 1 Peter 1:7. God has pleasure in putting faith to the test and the evidences of it are in the test. This, I suppose, is the supreme evidence of Abraham’s faith. We are really being led, as you might say, out of the world in these chapters, one step after the other. It is well to remember that word, “who walk in the steps of the faith, during uncircumcision, of our father Abraham”, Romans 4:12. There are steps of it; one after another, these lead us outside of the world. Colossians takes us out, although one can scarcely say it takes us in.
EGM You mean that in Colossians you are delivered from the rudiments of the world, but Ephesians brings you into Canaan.
JT Ephesians presents the believer as seated down in the heavenlies in Christ.
Ques The literal offering up of sacrifices to God has nothing to do with the Christian, has it?
JT This is much more than that. The references to these incidents in the New Testament give light. What is said about this one is, “By faith, Abraham, [when] tried, offered up Isaac, and he who had received to himself the promises offered up his only begotten [son], as to whom it had been said, In Isaac shall thy seed be called: counting that God [was] able to [p. 386] raise [him] even from among [the] dead, whence also he received him in a figure”, Hebrews 11:17 - 19. It was the giving up of the promised seed, hence a supreme test of faith.
There are points to be noted in chapters 18 and 19 that help to bring Abraham’s position into greater relief as heavenly. He is the depository of the mind of God in regard to the judgment of the world. In chapter 18 it is said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing? Since Abraham shall indeed become a great and mighty nation; and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him. For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of Jehovah, to do righteousness and justice”. “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” That is a point to be noted. Before passing on to chapters 21 and 22 it is important to note the position that Abraham occupied in regard of what God was doing on the earth. He was about to come in in judgment and Abraham was to be made the depository of His purpose in this respect.
EGM How do you connect that with the assembly?
JT The assembly is, as has been said, the confidante of God. God has disclosed to her His thoughts as regards what He is doing. Now what God is doing is of great importance to us. He always acts in any given dispensation in keeping with that dispensation; here the time for judgment had arrived and so the light of it is not withheld from Abraham. He was to be in the secret of it. I think it is well to bear in mind that what God is doing is in keeping with the dispensation. When the time of judgment arrives the dispensation shall have changed. It shall be no longer what it is now. It is not the time for judgment yet, so that one must not interpret what is going on in the world in the [p. 387] light of judgment. However terrible the events, God is over-ruling them for the furtherance of His own work of grace.
HG You say it is not judgment?
JT No, but more in order that men should turn to God and be saved. So you do not look for the literal fulfilment of prophetic events or prophetic things; such things belong to another dispensation strictly.
HG In regard of our brother’s question, how should we pray now? How would the intercessory spirit find an intelligent outlet from us as in keeping with what we get here? Abraham seems to pray in view of the godly element that was in Sodom. He begins with fifty and stops with ten.
JT You will notice he does not refer to anyone in Sodom as his brother. It is not the brotherly spirit that comes into evidence here. It is rather a question of what is due to God. “And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also cause the righteous to perish with the wicked? There are perhaps fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not forgive the place for the sake of the fifty righteous that are therein?”, Genesis 18:23 - 24. He has in mind that the Lord would forego the judgment in view of the presence of fifty righteous persons, not here fifty brethren. And the Lord said that He would. “And Jehovah said, If I find at Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will forgive all the place for their sakes”. So we have here, I think, a principle that the righteous become a protection against judgment.
HG But are the righteous not brethren?
JT No doubt, but you see righteousness refers to God; the brother refers to you. It is your brother, but a righteous man is of very great value in God’s eyes, so that the Spirit is given to us on account of that.
HG So Lot is called in 2 Peter just or righteous.
JT He was that. “through seeing and hearing”, he “tormented [his] righteous soul day after day” and God had respect for this. He was saved out of Sodom’s overthrow. Had there been ten like him the Lord would have spared Sodom, so it is a question now as to how many righteous there are. That is what God takes account of — the number of righteous persons that there are; and would we not like to see the number multiplied? A righteous man is rare, and is of great value in God’s account. We are to follow righteousness, 2 Timothy 2:22. The traits of brethren are outlined in the gospels: they do the will of God, keep His word, but Abraham says nothing about his brother here. He is thinking now of what is due to God in view of judgment. The judgment is averted by righteousness.
WCR Righteousness seems to have a peculiar place. “[The] fervent supplication of the righteous [man] has much power”, James 5:16. God takes account of it.
JT That is quite in keeping with what we are considering. It is the value of a righteous man.
HG The Lord’s eyes are said to be over the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers. Peter indicates that none can harm the righteous.
JT Peter is on the line of the government of God, and makes much of practical righteousness.
HG You said righteous men were very few.
JT It seems to me, that it becomes a question for us as to whether we are righteous.
HG What constitutes a righteous man?
JT I think it is one who submits to the righteousness of God, the righteous requirements of God. “The righteous requirement of the law should be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit”, Romans 8:4. That is one thought in righteousness, another is that you “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God,
[which is] your intelligent service”, Romans 12:1. It is due to God. Romans sets before us what practical righteousness is. So love in its varied workings in the saints is righteousness.
GAT Is it not the platform upon which God comes to us first?
JT Yes, grace reigns through righteousness, from God to us, and we yield righteousness by the Spirit, so the Spirit is given on account of righteousness. The Spirit is “life on account of righteousness”, Romans 8:10.
GAT If we go back to the commencement, when we had to do with God first, He came out in love on the ground of righteousness. Righteousness is the first principle, is it not?
JT Yes, He must be just and the Justifier of him that believeth in Jesus, and we submit to the righteousness of God; but then there is a yield of righteousness for God, so that Christians are practically righteous. Hence John says, “If ye know that he is righteous, know that every one who practices righteousness is begotten of him”, 1 John 2:29. God is looking for those who practise righteousness, and that is by the Spirit.
WB-t I am very thankful for this, because in a way the future of the world hinges on it, as I gather from what you say.
JT Yes, I think so. God has respect for the areas in which there are righteous persons.
WB-s It is like the salt, a preserving power.
EGM If that is so, and the righteous are found in the assembly, how do you make the statement fit in, that because He could not find ten righteous, judgment was bound to come?
JT I should say that God is sovereign in judgment, as in love. We cannot restrict God to conditions here, but there is the fact stated that for the sake of fifty righteous, and even less, He said He would spare [p. 390] Sodom.
WB-s Is it rather than God looks for a basis on which to act? If there is righteousness in a place, it is the work of the Spirit of God in men, and God takes account of it in a governmental way.
JT Yes. The righteous in that way become a protection against judgment. Of course, God is sovereign in His actions, as already stated.
JB In chapter 19:22 the angel says to Lot: “Haste, escape thither; for I cannot do anything until thou art come there”. Lot, the righteous man, had to be taken out.
JT Quite.
WB-s The righteous man suffers for righteousness now, like Joseph. This is seen in Peter’s epistles.
JT The righteous suffer, but they come under protection. As quoted already, “[the] eyes of [the] Lord [are] on [the] righteous, and his ears towards their supplications”, 1 Peter 3:12.
WB-s John speaks of Abel suffering here on account of righteousness, 1 John 3:12.
JT Righteousness is sure to suffer whilst evil is dominant, but at the same time, it has a protecting virtue. God has respect to it and spares others on account of the righteous.
BTF Would you say the Spirit maintains righteousness here, and when the righteous go then judgment will come in?
JT The presence of the righteous holds evil in check on the earth. There is that which holds evil in check and maintains the rights of God. When that is withdrawn then lawlessness will lift up its head; “then the lawless one shall be revealed”, 2 Thessalonians 2:8. He who is the embodiment of wickedness is to be revealed. The presence of the righteous has a wonderful effect on this earth.
BTF Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:7 says, “he who restrains now”.
JT There is “that which restrains” and “he who restrains”. Whoever or whatever it is, whether it be the Spirit, the saints, or whether government, there is power here for the restraint of evil. Undoubtedly “he who restrains” is the Spirit in the assembly maintaining practical righteousness. That is the check on evil, so it cannot prevail whilst the Holy Spirit remains here in this way.
WJY You were saying this morning that Abraham had reached a certain spiritual elevation. Do you think it was only on that elevation that God could speak to him as He did?
JT I think so. “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing? Since Abraham shall indeed become a great and mighty nation”. Then, “he will command his children and his household after him”, Genesis 18:17 - 19. “I know him”, God says. God recognised him as knowing him, and makes him the depository of His thoughts, and now this gives Abraham the opportunity of being a priest. He is not only the friend of God, but a priest. That is, he becomes an intercessor and intercedes intelligently. He intercedes according to what God is.
GAT He was so acquainted with God that he kept on praying.
JT It is very beautiful as referring to the position of the assembly, the confidante of God now. She is not content with enjoying divine benefits herself, she has an intercessory character. Believers become priests, who intercede for others. “Wilt thou destroy the righteous with the wicked?” He appeals to what God is, and God has delight in that.
GAT Then this trouble in the world at the present time is not the fulfilment of prophecy. That comes in after the assembly is taken up?
JT It must not be regarded in the light of the fulfilment of prophecy. God is acting according to the dispensation. In any given dispensation what [p. 392] He is doing is in keeping with that dispensation, and this dispensation remains as it is until Christ removes from His present position. He is on the Father’s throne yet, “Neither does the Father judge any one”, the Lord said, John 5:22. Whilst He is occupying that throne, as I understand it, the time of judgment is deferred, and we must not bring it in too soon. Hence the present occurrences are to the end that men might turn to God. It is not now a strong delusion that men should believe a lie. On the contrary, men are rather disposed to believe the truth, having their eyes opened. Of course it remains true that what men or nations sow they reap. The present conditions are the outcome of long sowing.
WCR What is happening is more chastisement to awaken men as was said.
JT Many precious souls are being converted through all that is transpiring.
GAT “Ye will hear of wars and rumours of wars”, Matthew 24:6. We very often hear that quotation. How does it fit in with the present time?
JT There may be certain developments preparatory to the last days, and there is no doubt, that certain existing conditions are like the “hour of trial”, but then they are not the “hour of trial”. The “hour of trial” is an hour, and an hour is a very short period of time, a condensation of tribulation. Out of that hour the assembly is to be kept. It is to come upon all the world for a specific purpose namely, “to try them that dwell upon the earth”, Revelation 3:10. The assembly is a heaven-dweller, and those in the light of it are not earth dwellers; they are heaven dwellers. The hour of trial is for all those who are outside of the assembly, not for those who form it, but, as remarked, certain things may happen that are preparatory to the last days, and the believer sees the day approaching. He sees it that is, he sees certain conditions that suggest it.
[p. 393] These would include the activities of the Spirit in the assembly.
BTF You would say a certain amount of prophecy was fulfilled early in the Acts, would you not? For instance, the pouring out of the Spirit and the reference to Joel 2:28 - 29 in Acts 2:16 - 18.
JT Yes, but the judgment is stayed. It was the pouring out of the Spirit.
WB-s Today intercession should mark us, according to 1 Timothy 2.
JT That chapter remains still. It is the position we occupy. There is no change.
WB-s Do you not think we greatly fail in carrying that out?
JT I believe the prayers of the saints are the great factor toward the solution of the present calamity. It is our prayers that are heard, just as Abraham’s prayers here. Although the ten were not in the city, yet we see how God hearkened to him, and we may be sure, that God will hearken to us if we take up our service as priests and intercessors.
WJY The result of the prayer is the good of God’s people, “that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all piety and gravity”, 1 Timothy 2:2.
JT Yes; and the apostle says, “our Saviour God ... desires that all men should be saved ... for God is one, and [the] Mediator of God and men one, [the] man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for all”. Paul was a herald of all that, a teacher of the nations. So that our prayers should also have the salvation of men in view.
WB-t That is the main point in the passage, is it not?
JT Yes, so the saints have their position marked out for them and that has not changed. No happening on earth can change it, because it is a question of the fixity of the things in heaven; the heavenly bodies, taken together are a figure of what is established [p. 394] in Christ. We all know, that the clouds, or the influence of the elements below, cannot affect the sun or the other heavenly bodies; so no occurrence on earth can alter what God has fixed in heaven. Christ is on the Father’s throne and the Father’s name is not connected with judgment, but with grace.
EGM Connecting 1 Timothy 2 with what we have here, is the idea that we are to pray according to the intelligence we have, that as long as God tolerates the situation He withholds His judgment because of the righteous?
JT I think that is plainly taught in the word. “account the longsuffering of our Lord to be salvation”. The scoffers say, “Where is the promise of his coming?” but they are willingly ignorant of the judgment of God in the deluge, 2 Peter 3:3 - 15. Peter is writing of the government of God.
GAT Abraham had some knowledge of it.
JT He had intelligence as to what God was, and his intercession was based on this.
CHB One benefit a heavenly man has is that he gets God’s mind.
JT You will notice in chapter 19:29, that when the judgment falls on Sodom, it says, “And it came to pass when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt” God remembered Abraham; the deliverance of Lot was on account of Abraham’s intercession. Now is the time for the deliverance of the Lots that are in the world. That is really what I believe should exercise the saints, the many true believers that are in Sodom.
Ques Why did not Lot have the mind of God, being a righteous man?
JT It is said that his righteous soul was vexed. I do not think he could be called a righteous man in the full sense of the word. Abraham was the typically [p. 395] righteous man; the one who answered to the rights of God, but in grace Lot is recorded as righteous being one of God’s people; besides, he was vexed day by day with the filthy conversation of the wicked.
LGM Would you say Lot had a sense in his soul of what was right, but put himself in such a position that he did not have power to do what was right?
JT His position was a denial of whatever light he may have had, so to his sons-in-law, “he was as if he jested” when he sought to lead them out of Sodom. However much correct doctrine we have, there is no power, or moral weight, if we are linked up with the world, and there are many Christians in Sodom. In view of the judgment that is nearing we cannot but see, that it is a time for us to pray for them.
WB-s Some of our brethren of whom you speak are no doubt going through great exercise, if we only knew.
WB-t Might I ask here what “sin unto death” is? In 1 John 5:16 - 17, it says, “there is a sin to death: I do not say of that that he should make a request. Every unrighteousness is sin; and there is a sin not to death”.
JT I think it is a question of discerning as to whether the sin is such that death is the only right termination of the person’s course. It is due to God and the testimony that such an one should die. It seems to me it is a question of discernment as to whether it is such a case as that. “There is”, he says, “a sin unto death”; but it is not defined. It is rather left to our discernment.
WB-s I was thinking of one I have known, who seemed to be bright in the truth, but for many years has been a backslider living in sin. What would you say about such a one as that? Is it [p. 396] possible for him to die in that state and yet be saved?
JT Of course you cannot be very sure about such cases, whether they are really genuine. We cannot assume to be perfectly sure. If one does not practise righteousness; if his course is the practice of sin, how can we regard him as one of the children of God? You may hope he is from earlier evidences, but you cannot speak positively about it.
WB-s Would you look for recovery before death of one who was really a child of God?
JT Generally speaking, one would, but then “there is a sin unto death” and, although the one who sinned might be restored in his soul, the governmental penalty would fall on him.
CHB You mean physical death?
JT Certainly. “On this account many among you [are] weak and infirm, and a good many are fallen asleep”, 1 Corinthians 11:30. That was a solemn thing and was the Lord’s doing.
BTF What does the destruction of Sodom represent to us?
JT I think it is the final overthrow of the world. “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” God was beginning to judge; He was about to judge the world and those who have faith, are in the light of the mind of God as to it.
BTF Do you get anything here as to the saints, the assembly, being taken out of it?
JT I do not think that is seen here. The point emphasised, it seems to me is, that Abraham had the mind of God as a faithful man, and became an intercessor.
BTF I suppose that would really be the outcome of the scene at Mamre?
JT It is the sequel to it.
OJO The nations are trying for a permanent peace now. Scripture says, “When they may say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction comes upon them”, 1 Thessalonians 5:3. I was wondering if after this peace the time would be near when the assembly would be taken up?
JT There is no doubt that an era of peace is coming to the world, but it will be suddenly broken in upon; it will be “sudden destruction” then, which cannot be said exactly of the present upheaval. God makes “a short work” of judgement. When He undertakes to judge, things are done quickly.
WCR I would like to hear more about intercession for those ensnared in Sodom.
JT That is a great point now. Our exercise should be that believers in the world, should be extricated from it, and it seems as if prayer should be made for them.
GAT You have said a good bit about Abraham and his wife, and about Lot; but what about Lot’s wife?
JT She is a monument in a negative way as “a pillar of salt”. The Lord says of her, “Remember Lot’s wife” That is a very solemn word for us. It is the judgment that falls on one who, as delivered out of the world, or as having the opportunity of being delivered, looks back desiringly into it, her heart being there.
WCR What is the pillar of salt?
JT Preservative.
WCR It preserves others from following the same course.
JT These chapters show the way out of the world. In chapter 20 Abraham gets into another entanglement, but as you enter chapter 21 you are on the way out of the world. Your judgment is fixed, and now Christ comes into view as Isaac is weaned; and a great feast being made on his account. Christ is seen typically as getting His own distinctive place. I speak of going out of the world, having Colossians in mind. Abraham and Sarah [p. 398] disappear gradually and Isaac comes into evidence. Christ is becoming all. Chapter 21 is Christ personally; chapter 22 is Christ as having died and risen, the soul is here seen as reaching its climax; and at the end of chapter 22 you have the assembly brought in in Rebecca. She is introduced as of the same family as Isaac, so that now the assembly’s position is opened up. Henceforth it is Christ and the assembly.
GAT Sarah, being removed, is a figure of Israel.
JT That is chapter 23, but so far your soul is in company with the risen Christ, with the assembly brought into view in Rebecca at the end of chapter 22.
GAT It is most interesting to find love brought in in this chapter. It is the first time the word is mentioned in Scripture.
JT “Take now thy son, thine only [son], whom thou lovest, Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and there offer him up for a burnt-offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of” (chapter 22:2). The question raised here is, Am I now prepared to let all go here as after the flesh, even Christ after the flesh? Am I prepared for that, and to know Him henceforth as having died and passed out of this present order of things? As Paul says, “But if even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know [him thus] no longer. So if any one [be] in Christ, [there is] a new creation; the old things have passed away”, 2 Corinthians 5:16 - 17. The man of faith here is passing out of the world into the new order of things where Christ is all and in all. It is a question of Abraham’s faith here. We do not really consult with anybody when it is a question of faith. It is what you do yourself.
BTF Would you say a little more about what you alluded to, Am I prepared to let Isaac go? Referring to the manna in the golden pot, preserved [p. 399] in the ark (alluding to the pathway of our Lord Jesus when here upon earth), in what way would you speak of that in connection with allowing Isaac to go?
JT The perfect humanity of Christ remains, but the condition in which He was is not the condition that answers the purpose of God.
HG Sarah receiving strength to conceive seed, as we had it this morning, suggests the formation of Christ subjectively in the saints, which we all would cherish; but this is a faith movement, which indicates that our relationships in Christ are outside of flesh and blood and really belong to new creation; so we have to learn to appreciate and take account of one another entirely outside of the realm of nature, which is a slow lesson and one we do not readily take up; but yet Christianity hinges upon that, does it not?
JT It does.
CHB Does that not become a test at the present moment?
JT And the secret of all difficulty with us is that we do not take account of each other in the light of Christ risen.
GAT Abraham had actually two tests. He had to cast out the bondwoman and her son, which, as you said this morning, was his son. Now with this son, Isaac, he has to offer him up. What is the difference between the two tests?
JT The first test is that of natural affection he loved Ishmael as his offspring and wanted to retain him in the house along with Isaac, whereas Sarah had the mind of God. Therefore, it is a question of the assembly in chapter 21, showing the exercises of the saints, that they will not allow what is mongrel along with Christ (Isaac). A mongrel is one begotten of two kinds, what is partly of God and partly of the world. Like the many, so called, Christian institutions; they are not all Christ.
[p. 400] The apostle insisted at Corinth that it was to be only Christ, and Christ crucified too.
GWH That condition of things is very hateful to God, is it not? It is like Genesis 6:4.
JT Yes, there you get the thought of the mongrel. Whilst Sarah is in evidence in chapter 21 it was Abraham that made the feast for Isaac; but she insisted, that Ishmael must go. She allowed him in the house for one year with Isaac. He shared the house with him for that time, but directly Isaac is weaned and the feast is made for him, then Ishmael persecutes. That is to say, if you make everything of Christ the man born after the flesh will persecute. It is to be remarked that a babe of a year old is most lovable. I suppose at no period of its life is a child more lovable than then. Why then should he be persecuted? It shows what Ishmael is; how unreasonable he is; for there is no occasion for it. As the Lord said, “But now they have both seen and hated both me and my Father”, and “they hated me without a cause”, John 15:24 - 25.
WB-t Isaac had not hurt Ishmael, it was jealousy that made the hatred.
JT It shows what Ishmael is, and how the religious element will not tolerate a simple recognition of Christ.
WB-t So the scripture says, “Cast out this handmaid and her son”, Genesis 21:10.
JT It is the voice of God really. Now when you come to chapter 22 Sarah drops out of view. It is not the maternal feature there. It is a matter now of the supreme test of faith, whether I am prepared to forgo every link of nature, all that on which I might have been building up my hopes. Am I prepared to forgo all?
WB-t There is no other way.
JT That is the supreme test and many break down at this point.