AS IS THE HEAVENLY (2)
[p. 362] AS IS THE HEAVENLY (2)
JT I think the twelfth, thirteenth and fourteenth chapters of Genesis form one group; and then the fifteenth, sixteenth and seventeenth chapters, as determining the heir and who was to be the mother of the heir, form another group. This comes in on the maternal line. The maternal question is important; that is, who was to be the mother, and it is in that connection you get the revelation or announcement, that God is almighty.
WCR Why do you say the maternal thought is important; is it as suggesting influence?
JT Yes; and motherly care and nurture. There is a reference to it in the epistle to the Galatians; there we learn who our mother is. Sarai had associated the maternal thought with what was of Egypt, and the result was disastrous. So the subject before us is a very important part of the truth.
BTP You have in this section the child of promise indicated in a marked way.
JT Yes, and who the mother of the child should be.
GWH Why is the covenant so prominent here?
JT I think it refers to what God would do. It was His covenant and was unconditional. “I will establish my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be a God to thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I give to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojourning, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be a God to them”, chapter 17:7 - 8. It is, I think, to bring in what God accomplishes of Himself.
[p. 363] WB-s It reminds you a little of Exodus 6 where you get I will seven times.
WJY In speaking of the maternal idea, do you mean the system under which God carries out His purposes?
JT Yes, that is the thought in it. I have in mind the epistle to the Galatians, in which we have the development of what is maternal. It is a feature of the truth that perhaps is not much attended to. Abroad in Christendom it certainly is not known at all. The paternal side is clear enough, perhaps, but not the maternal side.
HG “Her children rise up and call her blessed; her husband [also], and he praiseth her”, Proverbs 31:28. Is that the idea?
JT Yes. You are quoting from Proverbs 31.
WB-t Galatians 4 speaks of two covenants, expressed in Hagar and Sarah.
BTF Referring to Galatians, is the thought in your mind that “the Jerusalem above ... is our mother”? Galatians 4:26.
JT Sarai here shows by her suggestion that she had not really judged Egypt. She introduced an Egyptian maid in connection with the maternal thought, which ended in disaster. The product ever after was a detriment to the testimony, although recognised of God, and indeed, blessed of Him on account of Abram. This shows the importance of having a right mother.
WCR Abram fell under that influence too more or less. He said, “Oh that Ishmael might live before thee”. He was evidently not clear about it.
JT Quite so; he did not fully judge what had happened. In chapter 15 the Lord says, “This shall not be thine heir; but he that will come forth out of thy body shall be thine heir”. This brings in the paternal side, but in chapter 17 the point is not simply that it is to be Abram’s son.
God says, “[As to] Sarai, thy wife, thou shalt not call her name Sarai, but Sarah shall be her name. And I will bless her, and I will give thee a son also of her; and I will bless her, and she shall become nations; kings of peoples shall be of her”. And then Abram says, “Oh that Ishmael might live before thee!” And God said, “Sarah thy wife, shall indeed bear thee a son; and thou shalt call his name Isaac; and I will establish my covenant with him, for an everlasting covenant, for his seed after him”. So the point in chapter 17 is the maternal side, and who is to be the mother of the heir.
LGM What would Ishmael answer to at the present time, in relation to Jerusalem above being our mother?
JT Ishmael is the product that is formed of a right father, that is the objective side of the truth; objective truth allied to worldly principles results in what Ishmael typifies. So Christendom today is the product of the objective side of the truth being connected with worldly principles. The doctrine may be right, but the organisation is worldly, it is of the world. It is simply the principles of the world taken over and associated with Christian doctrines. I think that especially applies to what is called Protestantism. The doctrines are, in measure, correct but the system is the world, and the product is a mongrel.
HG One is thankful for the constant adjustment of a spiritual ministry which prevents the insidious influences of the world from getting in amongst us, and which would deliver us from them, in order that the proper character of the mother might be maintained. Otherwise children would not be born for the maintenance of the testimony.
JT That is the thought. The recovery of the truth of the assembly brought in the right mother. Luther, I suppose, had the father, so to speak, the [p. 365] objective side, in that which was of God; God presented manward, but he never reached the mother. I do not think Protestantism has ever reached the idea of the mother according to God.
WJY Do I understand then, that in the mother thought you have before you the activities of the Spirit?
JT The activities of the Spirit in the new system. The mother suggests a new system of things, and the young Christian, or newly converted person, requires that for formation. Hence a believer coming into fellowship gradually becomes instructed in right principles and feelings and sympathies, which he can never acquire in the house of Hagar.
WJY You would say the Roman Catholics have an idea of the mother, but a corrupted one?
JT I think that is just, but we know what her children are. Indeed the very expression is used: “her children will I kill with death” (Revelation 2:23), but the children of Jerusalem above are not killed with death; they live!
HG The recovery of the truth brought in the mother, but we need the constant touch of the Spirit that the maternal side may be preserved. Otherwise the testimony would die.
JT The truth of the headship of Christ, the assembly in subjection to Christ, and the order that is becoming to the house of God, all have to be insisted on if the maternal principle is to be maintained amongst us.
JB It says in Thessalonians, when the apostle was with them he taught them how to walk and please God. And he said further that the Jews who were not pleasing God were contrary to all men, 1 Thessalonians 2:15.
JT He was like a nursing father. So in writing to the Galatians he uses a maternal expression, saying that he travailed “in birth until Christ shall have been formed in you”: not, in me, but “in you”. He was travailing for them. They ought to be travailing themselves, so to speak.
JB I suppose the Galatians were like Sarai and Abram as seen in Genesis 16.
JT The Galatians were like Sarai in that she would bring in an Egyptian element, a bond-slave. That is what Christendom has come to. The system is altogether of the world now.
BTF Why did Abram say; “Oh that Ishmael might live before thee!” Was it on account of the fact that he had become attached to Ishmael as a son?
JT Ishmael was tangible. He was there before him, whereas there was no hope of another heir from the natural point of view. It must be on the principle of faith and that necessarily brought in the great subject of the chapter, namely, the power of God. Things must be in that connection, so it says even of Sarah herself, that through faith she received strength to conceive seed, Hebrews 11:11. It must be on that principle.
LGM Sarah was the vessel which God had formed to become the mother of the child of promise.
JT She was the vessel, and moreover she was dead as far as nature went, so everything had to be on the ground of faith and the power of God. Paul says “the kingdom of God [is] not in word, but in power” (1 Corinthians 4:20) and his word amongst them was in power. It was “in demonstration of [the] Spirit and of power”, 1 Corinthians 2:4. Things must be on that principle amongst us; that is, faith and the power of God.
AL So in Galatians it says in regard of the covenant, “God is one”. In the old covenant there were two parties. We have nothing to do with it in this case. “God is one” in regard to the promise.
JT It depends wholly on God.
AL In the covenant with Israel there were two [p. 367] parties to it, and a mediator of it. There is no mediator here.
WB-s Speaking of Sarah, I understand her name means princess. This corresponds with Jacob’s name being changed to Israel, meaning prince.
JT Abram’s name is changed here. He is now father of a multitude. This also involves divine power, for he could not be a father according to the flesh. Satan also endeavoured to damage Sarai in Egypt, but God protected her there.
GAT I might come in amongst the people of God, and if I have not judged Egypt, be liable to bring its principles with me.
JT That is exactly the point. These principles are constantly coming in and if we allow them there will be permanent damage.
HG Does not Galatians express the truth in regard to the mother. “Jerusalem above is free, which is our mother”. She is regarded as free of every influence. I was thinking in connection with the word you gave us yesterday, “Know that our brother Timotheus is set at liberty” (Hebrews 13:23); that if we are to have free brethren there must be a free mother.
JT If we allow in our souls the idea of Plymouth Brethren, to use an illustration, we are in bondage, because that is an element of the world, that is Egyptian. Whereas if we hold to the truth expressed in Matthew 12:48 - 50, Mark 3:33 - 35, Luke 8:19 - 21 and John 20:17, we shall be free brethren. In Matthew those who do the will of His Father are the Lord’s brethren; in Mark those who sit around in a circle and listen to Christ, are recognised as His brethren; in Luke those who hear the word of God and do it are so regarded. In John I think we may regard faith in Christ as the Son of God as a distinguishing feature of the brethren. These great principles and characteristics mark off the brethren [p. 368] in this world. We are thus free. As the Lord says in Matthew 17:26, “then are the sons free”. In that way, we are in keeping with Jerusalem above, and that I believe is one of the most important features of the truth for us.
As already remarked, if you admit an Egyptian element it becomes gradually a dominating principle, and if it is not judged you legalise it. In the addresses to the churches you get the “Nicolaitanes”. Their works were hated at Ephesus, but they gradually got a place among the saints, and so in Pergamos their doctrine was accredited, Revelation 2:15. When worldly principles are doctrinised (if I may use this word) they become legalised to those who accept them. I believe that is how Christendom has developed. Hence you get “the doctrine of Balaam”, Revelation 2:14. There is nothing said about his prophecies. They were not being treasured alongside his doctrines! They are of great account to the spiritual mind. But his doctrine was what he taught Balak. It was something that Balak should do against the people of God; how he should withstand them; that principle became legalised in the church. Jezebel too taught the Lord’s servants to commit fornication and to eat of idol sacrifices. That kind of practice becomes legalised amongst the saints. All that is on the maternal side, and so the end of the professing church is apostasy. It is seen in Jezebel whose children are killed with death. The Lord says, “her children will I kill with death” (Revelation 2:23); this was to the end that all the churches might know that He judges. In this way one sees how things that seem trifling at the outset may soon become dominant and legalised, so that they give character to those who receive them.
Rem Jezebel is the mother of the Babylonish system.
JT She is the mother of harlots and abominations [p. 369] of the earth. She has the name of “Mystery, Babylon the Great”. As seen in the Lord’s address to Thyatira Jezebel is wife and mother, but finally, she throws off all allegiance to a man and says, “I sit a queen, and I am not a widow; and I shall in no wise see grief”, Revelation 18:7.
WB-t In John 8:30 - 32 we read, “As he spoke these things many believed on him. Jesus therefore said to the Jews who believed him, If ye abide in my word, ye are truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free”. Freedom comes from the knowledge of the truth, connected with the work of the Spirit in us.
WJY Weakness in this connection has been manifest in the presentation of the gospel. It has been presented so much objectively, apart from that which suggests the maternal idea, and there has been great weakness as a consequence.
JT Yes; so the gospel and the assembly should go together in the testimony. Peter says, “he has poured out this which ye behold and hear”, Acts 2:33. He referred to the effect of the Spirit in the saints, and this involved the truth of the assembly.
WB-t I do not quite understand how the subjective goes with the objective; that is, with the gospel in an elementary way. Christ has to be set before a soul in an objective way first; and the subjective comes afterwards.
JT Yes; only in the beginning of Romans, for instance, He is declared to be the Son of God with power by resurrection of the dead, and it is according to the spirit of holiness — the spirit of holiness. Now I suppose we would admit that Romans 1 sets out the gospel as it is presented to the soul, for it is said to be “concerning his Son”, Romans 1:3. The “Spirit of holiness” is mentioned; surely that is an element that ought to come into the soul as one believes the testimony. The truth is broken up [p. 370] for us, but in the gospel you preach Christ, not only what He has done, but Himself. The elementary feature of the gospel is, that there is a Man presented to the soul who afterwards becomes its Ideal, and that is formative. So the gospel, if rightly presented, is a formative element even when first received. There is the conception of a Man in the soul. In Acts 8:5 it says Philip at Samaria “preached the Christ to them”; then it further says that the eunuch was reading the prophet Esaias; the subject of the passage, (chapter 53), was Jesus, and hence the evangelist, as is stated, “announced the glad tidings of Jesus to him”, Acts 8:35. The result was that the eunuch said, “Behold water; what hinders my being baptised?”, Acts 8:36. The man had a conception in his soul of what he read and heard. Jesus was henceforth the “hidden man” of his heart undoubtedly.
WB-t It is quite remarkable that in this chapter you get circumcision introduced by God and then the mother of the heir comes in. Circumcision is brought in and immediately Sarah is spoken of. That strengthens what you were saying in regard to the subjective side being maternal. Circumcision meant the cutting off of the flesh.
JT I think it is very practical. Circumcision is said to have been a seal of the righteousness of faith which Abraham had; it is thus like the Spirit. If one believes the gospel he is sealed. Circumcision is, however, more the effect of the Spirit in the believer.
WCR That would bring in the spirit of holiness you spoke of. Would you say a little more about that?
JT The Man presented to me in the gospel has the spirit of holiness. “concerning whom”, says the eunuch, “does the prophet say this? of himself or of some other?” It was of the “some other” the prophet spoke, and Philip announced the glad [p. 371] tidings of Jesus to him. One can understand how much Philip would have told him about the Lord, what a Man He was; as Peter says how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth “with [the] Holy Spirit and with power; who went through [all quarters] doing good”, Acts 10:38. So the eunuch would get into his soul the conception of a Man like that, and hence he says in effect, ‘I am prepared to disappear; that Man is to live in my heart’.
WJY That is subjective.
JT Quite; “for he went on his way rejoicing”, Acts 8:39. The rejoicing was the product of the light received in his soul.
WJY I have been thinking a good deal about Christendom, the objective having a place there, but not the subjective, and that was in my mind when I suggested that there had been a difficulty with us on the same lines in connection with the gospel.
JT Yes. I believe one ought to bring in the light of the assembly, as essential to the salvation of the soul practically.
BTF Referring to what Philip said to the eunuch about the Lord’s life being taken from the earth, no doubt in connection with that the thought of the Sin-bearer was introduced.
JT Yes. There can be no doubt that the evangelist presented a full gospel to the eunuch.
WB-t Will you say a little more about circumcision being the seal? Is your thought that the flesh in the believer is set aside by the Spirit?
JT The Spirit disallows the flesh. “If, by the Spirit, ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live”, Romans 8:13. There is an evidence of life. The Spirit is life on account of righteousness; that is subjective. One has the evidence in one’s self of righteousness, by [p. 372] the presence of the Spirit.
WB-t You connect the presence of the Spirit in a believer with righteousness?
JT Yes; it is the practical evidence of his righteousness before God; “the Spirit life on account of righteousness”, Romans 8:10. Life here is in the sense of power, and so corresponds with Genesis 17. One can walk before God and be perfect by the power of the Spirit only. Paul says, “We are the circumcision, who worship by [the] Spirit of God, and boast in Christ Jesus, and do not trust in flesh”, Philippians 3:3.
EGM In connection with the teaching of circumcision God’s power was manifested in bringing in the right kind of man in Isaac. This is seen in what was said to Sarah as much as in what was said to Abraham. The mother as well as the father is energised by the power of God.
JT Yes, so it is shown later in this history that Sarah was particular as to the influences surrounding Isaac. After he is weaned the mocking son has to be cast out. He is allowed to remain until he shows his spirit and character.
GAT And it is through her influence he is cast out.
JT Exactly. Abraham would have retained him. She had learned a lesson; I believe she received the maternal idea from God. A good deal is said here by Jehovah of what was personal to Sarah.
GAT So if I come under the influence of the assembly, that influence will result in formation.
JT Directly you apprehend and recognise the assembly in its spiritual and heavenly character, you are on the maternal line.
EGM Do you not think, that much of our failure lies in the lack of apprehension of what is presented in Sarah?
JT Yes. If we get the truth of the assembly in our souls we want to promote it locally, because [p. 373] there are young people coming along, and we want to have the principle of the free woman, constantly maintained in the circle of the saints. It is a question of life, of the power of God working in the saints. It works out practically in a brother in the way he cares for the saints, attends the meetings and contributes to them.
EGM It is not so much my attendance at the meetings, though essential, but what effect my attendance has on the meetings.
JT What you contribute, the spirit in which you are there. If we all have that before us, the characteristics of the assembly are maintained, and young people coming in get right motherly influence.
GAT We see this in Sarah, she sees Isaac as the heir, one in whose hands the testimony is to be, and so protects him from damaging influences. We see the young coming along and we older ones ought to seek to be in the good of the assembly and that we would protect them.
JT That is it. We want to protect them. You have your own enjoyment too.
GAT So instead of causing them concern on account of our walk we should be exercised so as to set a right example before them.
JT Sarah is a model as seen here. She was a woman of faith. In Hebrews 11:11 - 12 it says, “By faith also Sarah herself received strength for [the] conception of seed, and [that] beyond a seasonable age; since she counted him faithful who promised. Wherefore also there have been born of one, and that of one become dead, even as the stars of heaven in multitude, and as the countless sand which [is] by the sea shore”. Peter also speaks of her as a model for others. Thus Sarah is signalised in the New Testament.
GAT Would you mind saying a word about Abraham’s request here? Why should he, having such light, pray to God to have Ishmael remain in [p. 374] His presence? He also circumcises Ishmael. If a child after the flesh why should Abraham so long to have him before Him?
JT It indicates that he was not up to the light presented to him.
LGM Would you say he was viewing Ishmael according to the natural relationship?
JT As remarked a while ago, Ishmael was tangible, whereas Isaac was still only in promise. We naturally cling to what is visible.
GAT Why does he circumcise all his house, even the servants?
JT Circumcision as a principle must apply to all in a believer’s household. It is the negation of the flesh. But the point is, who is to be the mother of the heir? It was not only that Abraham was to be the father, but who was to be the mother? Abraham was just as much the father of Ishmael as he was the father of Isaac; the important point here is the mother.
EGM So when Abraham implores God that Ishmael might live before Him, God immediately turns and says, “Sarah, thy wife shall indeed bear thee a son”.
HG Sarah’s voice in a certain way suggests the voice of the Spirit in the assembly; we are to have an ear to hear what the Spirit says. Jehovah enjoined Abraham to hearken to her voice in regard to Ishmael, Genesis 21:12.
JT So the Spirit is occupied for the moment with what is suitable to the present time. Abraham as a type extends to other dispensations, because the objective side goes on, but the Holy Spirit is here now in a peculiar manner, in a manner different from that of any other dispensation, and so asserts His rights. I think, that Sarah in this connection, represents the assembly principle maintained in the energy of the Spirit. This, I believe, is what the [p. 375] Lord is pressing continuously, that the assembly, the light and the privileges of it, should be maintained amongst the saints.
In chapter 18 there is an element of education for both Abraham and Sarah in regard of Isaac. The men came to Abraham, “And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent. And he said, I will certainly return to thee at [this] time of the year, and behold, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah was listening at the tent-door, which was behind him. Now Abraham and Sarah were old [and] advanced in age: it had ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women. And Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am become old, shall I have pleasure, and my lord old? And Jehovah said to Abraham, Why is this, that Sarah laughs, saying, Shall I indeed bear, when I am become old? Is [any] matter too wonderful for Jehovah? At the time appointed I will return to thee, at [this] time of the year, and Sarah shall have a son. And Sarah denied, saying, I did not laugh; for she was afraid. And he said, No; but thou didst laugh”.
JB And as a result of that education she counts Him faithful that had promised.
JT Quite. According to the Spirit’s comment in Hebrews she had faith in regard to it and so she became eventually the suitable mother for Isaac.
GAT She could not have had faith in introducing Hagar.
JT In chapter 17 she was governed by Egyptian principles, for that is the sure accompaniment of the want of faith in God. You go back to Egypt, which is the resource of the flesh, and bring in something to carry out a right thought. You may have a right desire, but carry it out in a wrong way, and the result is confusion.
WCR The faith of parents evidently affects the child; the faith of Moses’ parents affected him afterwards. His mother nursed him; indeed we may say she baptised him, for in after years, he identified himself with the people of God.
JT So when Sarah said, “Cast out this handmaid and her son” (Genesis 21:10) that was virtually admitting that she had been wrong herself. She had judged what she had done and is now clear of Egyptian principles; she says, he “shall not inherit with my son”. She is now completely in accord with the mind of God.
OJO Why did Sarah laugh?
JT I am not disposed to condemn the laugh, because it is right if spiritual; only there seems to be an element of unbelief in the two laughs here; chapter 18:17; 18:12, and yet the Spirit of God turns them into a spiritual thought, for Isaac signifies laughter. Compare, Psalm 126:2. If we can lay hold of this one thought in our reading, that there is such a thing in the truth as the maternal idea, and that it has to be cherished and devotedly preserved amongst us, great gain will accrue.
GAT I can see it is a good thought, but for myself I question if I have the real meaning of it in my soul.
JT It takes this form, that you get light as to the assembly’s relation to Christ. The assembly is subject to Christ. The assembly is formed of the saints, and the principle of subjection to Christ should thus be maintained amongst them. Then there is the heavenly calling; the calling of the assembly is heavenly; it belongs to heaven. That is an element of light in the soul: “such as the heavenly [one], such also the heavenly [ones]”, 1 Corinthians 15:48. We are here in that heavenly light, which includes sonship. This promotes freedom amongst the saints. All works out practically through our being together. There is a word in Hebrews which has come to me very forcibly of late, “not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the custom [is] with some; but encouraging [one another], and by so much the more as ye see the day drawing near”, Hebrews 10:25. That has encouraged me to believe that the Christian through current events sees the day approaching, and as he sees it, he repairs to the company of the saints, covets it, and as there, is exercised about maintaining the order becoming to the house of God. So the maternal spirit in that way is preserved amongst us.
WCR In Timothy you get Paul’s exercise as to the continuance of the testimony, and this would involve the maternal side.
JT I think the letters to the Thessalonians coupled with that to the Galatians furnish us with the maternal spirit in the apostle. In 1 Thessalonians he speaks of himself like as a nurse cherishing her own children.
WCR You would look forward to things continuing on the ground of responsibility, if the Lord leaves the saints here.
JT You want to have the younger ones brought up under the right influence.
EGM Is the maternal idea in Galatians 4:19, “my children, of whom I again travail in birth until Christ shall have been formed in you”?
JT Yes, that is what I have been referring to.
EGM The coming together, as you referred to it in Hebrews, is not simply the maintaining of right principles, which you get in the father, but to rear up each other in the maternal idea, so that Christ is formed in us.
JT In Proverbs 31:10 you find the principle in a remarkable way in the “woman of worth?” whose “price is far above rubies”. Great profit will result from prayerfully reading verses 10 to 31 [p. 378] of the chapter.
WB-t The passage is a remarkable picture of the assembly.
JT It is. It presents the true maternal idea, not in the sense of conception and bearing, but in the sense of bringing up and providing for children and the household.
JAR How do you apply that? Would it apply to an individual?
JT It works out in the way we care for one another. We care for one another in the light of the assembly. That is what you have in view in regard of each believer you meet with and seek to help.
JAR If that is the case, it is an important thing that we be present at all the meetings, care meetings and all the meetings, because we are responsible in that connection.
JT Yes.
HG In Genesis 18 Abraham is at leisure and free to receive a divine visitation, his wife apparently in sympathy with him. It suggests the two sides, the objective side in the husband and the subjective in the wife, forming a suitable atmosphere for the Lord to draw near to.
Rem You get the spirit of that in the previous chapter, where Abraham takes account of God’s rights and judgment of the flesh; where that stand is taken God is sure to come in.
JT It shows the heavenly position of the man too. “And Jehovah appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre”. Chapter 13:18 tells us, that he dwelt there, and God visited him there, as if to honour and confirm him in the promise of a son. It is really the truth of Colossians. His dwelling associations are in Hebron, that is where he lives, and he is there in a tent. It says, “he sat at the tent-door in the heat of the day; and he lifted up his eyes and saw, and behold, three men standing near him”.
[p. 379] The word men is dropped in Genesis 19:1, in the visitation to Lot; “two angels” visited him, whereas “three men” visited Abraham.
GAT Would you say that was on account of where both men were sitting? One sat in the tent door and the other in the gate of Sodom.
JT I think God is honouring Abraham in taking this form, in drawing near to him in the form of a man, as if to say that it was a question of mutual enjoyment rather than communications. The coming of the “three men” would denote that there was mutuality in view. It is not official. There is no distance suggested, nor disparity between the three men and Abraham. There is; as it were, a common platform, all, I think, based on the progress that Abraham had made, and the environment in which he was. In other words, he is on heavenly ground in his soul, so that the appearing is in this form. It is what we enjoy, you might say, as the companions of Christ. It says, “when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent-door, and bowed himself to the earth, and said, Lord, if now I have found favour in thine eyes sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant. Let now a little water be fetched, that ye may wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. And I will fetch a morsel of bread; and refresh yourselves; after that ye shall pass on; for therefore have ye passed on towards your servant. And they said (notice not”the Lord said”but” they said”), So do, as thou hast said”. It seems to me that there is a reference to mutuality. The Lord, in a personal sense, is not prominent until afterwards, although Abraham respects and reverences Him.
HG I was wondering if the thought you refer to is on the same line as “Be not forgetful of hospitality”; the spirit of hospitality is very evident.
JT Yes. Abraham had advanced, and is here [p. 380] typically outside the world, corresponding with a heavenly position; it is on heavenly ground that the Lord is pleased to be with us. So you see He is pleased to be as one of three men, not “the Lord and two others” simply. Whilst the faith and piety of Abraham led him to recognise and respect the Lord, yet it says they were entertained by him. “They said, So do as thou hast said”. There was mutuality. The Lord is, as it were, merged in the company. To my mind it is a most touching scene, and all the result of the progress that the heavenly man has made in his soul, and his wife as well, and his young men. We may say they were all in accord with the great privilege accorded them.
GWH Is it near to John 20?
JT Very near, but not quite as far. It is in Hebron, not Jerusalem yet. It is a question of what is before the world, what God has ordained before the world. That is the thought of Hebron; “that hidden [wisdom], which God had predetermined before the ages for our glory”, 1 Corinthians 2:7.
JAR I notice in verse 10 it reads, “and he said”. Before that it was “they said”.
LGM The Lord Jesus says in John’s gospel, “Abraham exulted in that he should see my day”, John 8:56.
JT I think He refers there to the weaning of Isaac, when Christ typically obtains His place in the house, Genesis 21:8.
WCR As to the visitation, will you open that up a little more, the mutuality and the preparedness?
JT You see everything is ready. “They said, So do as thou hast said”, and then it says, “Abraham hastened into the tent to Sarah, and said, Knead quickly three seahs of wheaten flour and make cakes. And Abraham ran to the herd, and took a calf tender and good, and gave [it] to the attendant; and he hasted to dress it. And he took thick and sweet [p. 381] milk, and the calf that he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood before them under the tree, and they ate”. That is the record we have.
GAT Would you say we get the idea in that of a man who gives himself, his wife, his home, his services and his possessions? They are all at the disposal of the Lord.
JT They all appear to be equal to the position they are in, and there is no evidence of surprise on Abraham’s part in the appearing of the three men to him.
WCR He is equal to the occasion; he knows how to act.
JT Exactly. He is governed by the principles that govern the position.
WCR How does that work out for us? Do we not have visitations?
JT I think we do, on this ground. John 14 shows us the ground on which we get visitations from the Father and Son. The Spirit is already here. In connection with what we were saying in regard to the three men, the Spirit is already here, He abides with us for ever, and the Father and Son come. I think visitations are always conditional; would you say that?
HG I was just going to quote John 14 as suggesting it. You get elements which ought to mark the Christian circle in connection with what Abraham provides. I mean there is water for feet washing and there was rest under a tree, he himself knew what it meant to find rest from the heat of the day; and there was the morsel of bread and comfort for their hearts; “after that ye shall pass on”. The whole thing is in such modesty; He says, “a little water” and “a morsel of bread”. It suggests, “thou hast a little power, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name”, Revelation 3:8. Yet all the elements are there which the Lord would look for and value;
[p. 382] found in a circle where there has been the maintenance in integrity of divine principles. Here you not only have the objective idea, but also the subjective: Sarah is in full sympathy with her husband and has her part in preparing the feast for the divine Visitors.
WCR Do we often find ourselves not at home in the Lord’s presence? Abraham seemed to be perfectly at home.
JT As you said, he knew what to do. Of course, you do not look for haste, for things to be done in a hurry amongst us, but the idea of haste here is that it needed to be done at once; there is no need for delay when it is known what is to be done. Abraham shines here in this way.
Ques Would you not get encouragement here to be hospitable towards the Lord’s people? Scripture tells us, that we should use hospitality, for in this service others entertained angels unawares.
JT Yes, but there is more than that here. It was the Lord Himself, as we have been dwelling upon it; and this shows the importance of being prepared for a divine visitation; the Father and Son come to us. How it behoves us therefore to be ever, as to the state of our souls, on the heavenly platform so that there may be no surprise.
GAT This chapter very often challenges me in this way; when it comes to contributing to the Lord I am liable to think anything will do, as little as I can give, but with Abraham the very best he had he gave. And so the women in Luke 8 ministered to Him of their substance.
JT You will observe there is nothing said here about unleavened bread, whereas in Lot’s case there is. It is to his credit too, but the idea of unleavened bread is not necessary here. It will not be necessary in heaven. There is no element of evil there, nor is it where our souls are on heavenly ground. Evil is judged. Would [p. 383] you say that?
HG Yes.
WCR Is that the reason Lot provided it, because he was not on heavenly ground?
JT He was in wrong associations and there could be no contact with him without unleavened bread, without the judgment of evil. We must always maintain the judgment of sin.
AR Is this a picture of what we get in John 12:2? “There therefore they made him a supper”.
JT Very much like it.
BTF The cakes were to be made of fine meal.
JT It suggests, I think, the place Christ’s humanity has in such a scene.
JB In John 14 the Lord tells His disciples that if He goes away He will come again unto them. Then he says, “If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, that I go to the Father: for [my] Father is greater than I”, John 14:28. Is the thought there, that He was coming again to them and He tells them before He goes away? I suppose it sets us at ease in regard of His coming to us.
JT Yes.
WCR Our brother raised the question of this being a picture of John 20.
JT It is akin to it, only it is at Hebron here, as was stated. This takes place by the oaks of Mamre. I think John 20 is Jerusalem more, if you understand me. It is the full position of the saints in the counsel of God, the heavenly position, and the ascended One breathing into them in that setting.
HG Then, as you said, the Lord merges Himself with the company; so room is made for men. What I mean is that it would suggest the sphere where heavenly men might find a welcome, and that is what ought to mark us. We ought to be heavenly men. It is not only that the Lord has gone up, but there should be heavenly men here.
JT That is what the breathing means in John 20.
[p. 384] The Lord breathed into them so that they were constituted men like Himself.
AL I suppose when we come to what you speak of as heavenly ground we have to do with divine Persons. Would Abraham not set that forth?
JT I think he does.
AL You were saying a moment ago that we know them. It is remarkable that in John 14 we are said to know the Spirit even. It is said we know Him. It is a remarkable statement.
WB-s Is there not a greater thought in Christianity than what is indicated here? Here it is a visitation, but there is the thought of God dwelling.
JT That, I think, is Ephesians. You do not get the idea of God dwelling in the saints developed in Colossians. Colossians is merely on the way, and so here it is simply a visit. Ephesians is final; the assembly is there viewed as the habitation of God by the Spirit. There is nothing beyond the assembly as to the creature, “to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”, Ephesians 3:21. It is finality.
AL In John 14:20 we read, “In that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you”.
JT That refers to Christianity; “that day” would be the Spirit’s day.