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CHRIST IN YOU

JT The teaching of these verses enters into the assembly, the saints’ position as together in assembly. The epistle to the Colossians is general in its bearing; it does not deal formally with the saints as together, but the truth in these verses has its most concrete realisation as we are together. It deals with the spiritual side of our position, that in which, I believe, our gatherings are most defective. The order that is proper to the assembly convened is fairly well understood, and this order is included in what the apostle says in Colossians 2: 5. He says there, “if indeed in the flesh I am absent, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing and seeing your order, and the firmness of your faith in Christ”. The verse would cover the general deportment of the saints in Colosse, but it would have its most concrete expression in their assembly gatherings; their order was all that could be desired apparently, as the apostle says, he was not only pleased with it, but rejoiced in it. It was pleasing to him; although he had not been there in the flesh, he was there in spirit. This brings out the more spiritual side of the position.

If we apply the verse to the Lord Himself, it becomes fuller and more applicable as the saints are together in assembly at any time. So that we learn what our order is in His eyes, what joy He has in His people viewed in that way. So that although our assembly meetings may not go beyond this feature, there is something in them for Christ. What I thought we might see in this connection is that this second chapter aims at the more inward privileges that belong to us, as gathered; that we might enter upon them, and that we might see how all that ^[p. 211] would hinder us entering upon them is dealt with by God. So that what is to be considered is the more spiritual side of our position, corresponding with what was seen in the forty days in which the Lord appeared to His own before He ascended, after He rose; indeed, these days were for spiritual education. Hence chapter 1: 27 brings out the general position amongst the saints, that is, Christ being in us or among us. This has to be understood spiritually, and I believe that it involves the understanding of the forty days. It is not that He is amongst us corporeally, but still amongst us, and obviously this has the greatest realisation as we are together.

JCS Is it that assembly order, to which you have referred, leads us to a platform where everything expands in a secret or inward spiritual way?

JT That is what enters into the passage, I think. The order is one thing — the public order — which is delightful to the Lord and to heaven. How we come together; how we sit together, and how things are done generally, but there is what follows on that, and expands beyond what is local.

JCS I think you said that Colossians gives us a sphere — a general idea of the spiritual order of things — corresponding to the forty days, but that when we come together in assembly, this takes more definite form.

JT Yes; the conditions are then more suitable to it. Paul tells us — in 1 Corinthians 15: 5 - 8 — that during those forty days and subsequent to them, but particularly during those forty days, the Lord appeared to Cephas and to the twelve, then to five hundred brethren at once; to James, to all the apostles, and to himself. The five hundred brethren at once certainly points to the saints together, and so the twelve, and so “all the apostles”. Both sides are presented. Thus I think we may learn that the ^[p. 212] saints together in assembly afford the Lord an opportunity of making chapter 1: 27 real to us.

AMH Has “Christ in you” in that sense a double bearing? You might say He dwells in the affections of the saints normally, but when we are together, is He brought into evidence amongst us?

JT I thought that. “Christ in you” would mean that He had a place in the affections of the brethren, particularly among the gentiles. It is set here as a mystery; “this mystery among the nations, which is Christ in you the hope of glory”. It is spoken of in that way; it alludes evidently to the place He had acquired in that gathering and elsewhere among the nations; He was in their hearts. Of course, that is a general thought, applied normally among christians, that the Lord was always regarded affectionately and reverently, but when we are together in assembly it especially applies. Though that is not treated of in this epistle, the teaching here can be linked up with what is collective. When we come together in assembly, and have what He provided for as a means of calling Him to mind, the truth as it is stated in verse 27, would be more realised than at any other time.

JCS Would it be right to say that a person coming in and sitting down in a back seat would be able to take account of the orderly procedure? But he would not be able to gauge the feelings or the affections of the saints in regard of the Lord Jesus.

JT That is right; and it helps as to the position when we are together in assembly. “Christ in you” is amplified as we partake of the Lord’s supper. It is amplified in the saints. It is not only that He is in our affections, but that He comes in because of conditions, and is there in a more concrete way than at any other time. Only a spiritual eye can discern that; the ordinary person, as you say, might see and admire the order — he might be affected by the assembly order — but “this mystery” he could not discern.

PL Would this be in keeping with the thought in John 14: 22? The question is asked as to how the Lord will manifest Himself to them and not to the world.

JT That enters into what we are saying. The Lord says, “If any one love me”, and then He speaks about the word: “he will keep my word”.

Earlier He said, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me; but he that loves me shall be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will manifest myself to him”. But when the question is raised how He manifests Himself to us and not to the world, then the Lord changes from “commandment” to “word”. “He will keep my word”, and then the Father and the Son come, meaning that the mind of God is understood as to the conditions suited to divine Persons. The commandments would separate us from what is wrong in christendom, but the word would lead us to the inward side of things; what the mind of God is as to conditions suited to Him, and that is beyond the range of the ordinary mind. A passage that helps as to all this is Exodus 24, where we are told that Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel were invited up to the mount, pointing to a realm beyond the natural, where they saw the God of Israel, and what was under His feet.

JCS Would the commandment to which you referred fit in somewhat with the order of 1 Corinthians, and the word with the Colossian point of view?

JT The word is more Colossians and Ephesians.

PL “Let the word of the Christ dwell in you richly” — would that link up with it?

JT It would. Colossians is an entering epistle, that is, it treats of conditions in us enabling us to ^[p. 214] enter on the divine ground, to go over Jordan. Ephesians opens up to us what is beyond. In that epistle you are immediately introduced to the heavenly position, you are blessed “with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies”. It is the heavenly position, but Colossians is the entering in, the crossing of the Jordan.

GC “Christ in you the hope of glory” would give a totally different outlook from the natural, which would be apprehended only by those who are spiritual.

JT I think that helps. “Christ in you” involves that He has a place in our hearts day in and day out, and He gives us to understand that as He is loved by us, there is something beyond. It is not to set us up here where we are, but there is something beyond. That is what the Lord Jesus would do for us, and transferring the thought to the saints, as assembled, the same thing would apply in an increased measure. That is, as He is apprehended in the Supper — as He comes in — we realise there is something beyond. He is apprehended in our minds as present and He conveys this. All He says to the disciples in John 13 - John 16 has the same thing in mind, that there is something always bearing on what is beyond, what He is going into, and what would be for us there.

JFS Have you in mind that these chapters give us the inward position, as in John?

JT They do. Matthew, Mark, and Luke give us the external position — the actual procedure at the institution of the supper, which John omits. In entering on these chapters John says that it was “before the passover”. It is not a question of what happened outwardly in relation to religious dates or observances: that can be noted by the natural eye. This is what is inward. What we are speaking of now is particularly needed. Often as to ^[p. 215] the ministry there is the complaint. We do not follow, we do not understand; but the primary concern is that what is said should be the truth. If it is not understood, then it is a question of where we are spiritually. This epistle is to make us spiritual; mainly by presenting Christ in His personal greatness in chapter 1; then to show that He is in our hearts — He is loved by us — and that this is mysterious and involves glory — the hope in our hearts is glory. Then in chapter 2 the things that would hinder us from following on into the glorious realm are dealt with.

PL Would chapter 1 be like the ark two thousand cubits distant, emphasising the glory of the Person, and chapter 2 the descent, the way made for Israel through Jordan — disabilities cleared so that we may go over?

JT That is what this epistle teaches. Great things were to happen, Joshua stresses that great things were to happen at that time; and that is where we are defective; we are not on the alert for these great things.

FS Is that the thought in the section referred to in John’s gospel where the Lord says, “Rise up, let us go hence”, the ark is going to move?

JT Exactly. That is the end of chapter 14.

JCS Does the breaking of bread prepare the way for this transference to the spiritual or inward situation?

JT That is what I think; indeed, there is nothing clearer than that. The breaking of bread is a public matter; it is properly in the wilderness. That has often been asserted, and it cannot be asserted too often; that it is a public matter here, where Christ is not. It is because He is not here that it is celebrated. He, having already a place in a general way in our hearts, seizes the opportunity to come in when our minds are disengaged from all else and ^[p. 216] engaged with Him in the memorial. All that happens in our minds. It is not in an external way at all, it is in our minds, and in that way the idea of Christ among us is amplified. If we take the type, Jehovah says to Joshua, “This day will I begin to magnify thee”. Christ is magnified amongst us; He becomes greater and greater on these lines, so that He absorbs us and asserts His rights amongst us.

AMH Hence, ‘dead and risen with Christ’ is true to faith all through the week. Your thought is that there should be a movement on these lines in the power of the Spirit when we are gathered together.

JT That is what I thought we might see, that John’s gospel shows how an opportunity may be seized, or taken advantage of. As, for instance, Mary of Bethany took advantage of the opportunity to anoint the Lord for His burial some days before He died. This anointing would properly be as He was about to die, but it is as if she realised she might not have an opportunity again, and she seized it, as seen in John 12. I believe the idea may be connected with the Lord Himself, that in His love He takes advantage of an opportunity and the Lord’s supper gives Him that. Our minds are disengaged at that time. We are wholly engaged with one thought, that He is not here; and that is why we call Him to mind. There is an action of our minds, and He seizes that opportunity to come in in a way that He has not done ordinarily. Then there is the magnifying, as we are told in the book of Joshua. Whatever the Lord may do as amongst us, we make way for Him. He becomes more and more.

JCS So that spiritually every eye and every heart turn towards Him, and although there is no external appearance, yet very great things are taking place in the affections of the saints.

JT Exactly. The religious ceremony called ‘holy communion’ is what is external, and nothing else, what can be seen and heard by the natural mind and ear. But in the assembly there is an inward action, calling the Lord to mind, and an understanding and realisation of His presence: that is what is stressed here. “This mystery”, the apostle says, is “Christ in you the hope of glory”.

EBMcC Would you say that He had become magnified to the apostle so that he announces Him; “admonishing every man, and teaching every man, in all wisdom, to the end that we may present every man perfect in Christ”?

JT Yes. You can see how He was magnified in the apostle’s mind in writing the letter. When he comes to chapter 2, he is greatly impressed with what he had in mind, saying, “I would have you know what combat I have for you, and those in Laodicea, and as many as have not seen my face in flesh; to the end that their hearts may be encouraged, being united together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God; in which are hid all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge”. This is a passage that requires special attention, because it is really preparatory to what we are speaking of — the saints are to be knit together in love.

JCS “Knit together in love”. Does that supply the conditions necessary for the Lord to present Himself to us in this way?

JT In 1 Corinthians we have the order as to the Lord’s supper, and the order of ministry in chapter 12. Then it comes to love and the apostle speaks about showing it. “Yet shew I unto you a way of more surpassing excellence”. It was not there, so he had to describe it, but he does not do that here. Evidently there was a better state at Colosse, and he presses that what they understood might apply in increased measure. Indeed, they had love for “all the saints”, and they had “love in the Spirit”. So that the thing was known there, he did not need to describe it, as he did to the Corinthians, but his prayer was that it should increase, that locally they should be united together in it.

PL Does the Lord crown the teaching of chapters 13- 16 of John with a prayer in chapter 17, after the order of Paul’s here: “That they all may be one”?

JT That is the same thought; “knit together in love” is constructive. The loaf denotes that we are “one body”, for all are partakers. What we do is to remind us of what we are to one another; and it is a great thing to take up that attitude, as we sit together in partaking of the Lord’s supper.

GC These are the conditions that are inviting to the Lord, and from which He would not stay away.

JT You may be sure that He will come. That is just the point to reach — what He will do and He will not do.

AMH Is there a rising note in the understanding of the mystery of God?

JT I should think so. “Unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the full knowledge of the mystery of God”. The idea is advance in riches, in full knowledge, as if conditions now were such that he could bring this forward. There is full assurance of understanding to the full knowledge of the mystery of God.

AMH I was wondering whether that was necessary for the proper development of what you have before you — not only Christ loved in our hearts and our being knit together, but the knowledge of the mystery of God, what God would have us know of Himself. Then there is more for the Lord to operate upon, for not only is Christ brought into ^[p. 219] evidence amongst us, but God Himself would become very great to us, would He not?

JT And then the mystery of God. The mysterious side of christianity is much spoken of in Scripture, and yet, speaking for oneself, how little it is known and taken in! Here it is the mystery of God.

CCC A practical point of importance, if one gathers something of what is in your mind, is that the order of the Lord’s supper may be proceeding in a defined way that is right, but a certain spiritual sensitiveness may be absent, which if present, would have made room for the movements of the Lord and His disclosures, and thus the best is lost from the occasion.

JT That is right. We should not minimise the early part of the meeting. The assembly is so pleasing to the Lord. “My assembly” — the very initial thoughts of it are pleasing to Him. As spiritually one approached the tabernacle from the wilderness, one would note that the camps were all apart at respectful reverential distances. As one looked out on, or approached, the tabernacle with a spiritual eye, one would be affected. And the Lord is affected as He sees the idea of the assembly taking form even in its public character. I believe from the time when we begin to move from our houses, the Holy Spirit would serve us in that very connection in “the anointing”. All is to be in holy dignity as we move forward to come together in assembly. It is all pleasing to the Lord, but more particularly when we sit down. It is attractive to Him, even the order of it. I believe that the loaves — the shew-bread in the types — indicate how He looks at it. In Exodus it is the “bread of the presence”, not so much the order, as the presence of the saints in their position inside, so that God sees them. In Leviticus, the loaves are set in rows — six in a row — anointed ^[p. 220] with frankincense and always, as it were, fresh, for the loaves were removed every sabbath by Aaron, and I think that is what is alluded to in this chapter. The order of the saints, as meeting together, not only because it is the right thing to do, but because we are united in love. That is, it is a living state of things; Christ in us, delightful to the eye of God, and that is what is alluded to in verse 5. Then there is the more inward side of things, the apprehension of what is wholly spiritual. So that we have Christ presented to us here as the One in whom all the fulness of the Godhead dwells bodily. Then it says, “ye are complete in him, who is the head of all principality and authority”. These are all great spiritual thoughts and the understanding of them is open to us. The type says, Jehovah magnified Joshua. This helps as to what is before us. So in the assembly, as we go through and the time has come to disperse, Christ is greater in our eyes, and we feel spiritually greater. We feel we have had to do with wonderful things and are enlarged; it is not only a question of order, but of what we see inwardly.

JCS You have spoken of spiritual emotions; would you connect that idea with the inward side, the influence of all the wealth upon our spirits?

JT Well, the Psalms help us as to worshippers, how the psalmist regarded what was inside; what a day in the courts of God was; what the sanctuaries were, as Asaph speaks of them! These things are written for us, to impress us with what is available to us, so that in assembly we get the good of them; and not only that, but we are enriched, able to worship, able to take part in what the Lord has in His mind. The fact that He is stated to be Head of all principality and power is a great thought. It is not that this is to be operative in the assembly, but in chapter 1 He is Head of ^[p. 221] the assembly, and this feature becomes operative, as we are in assembly.

JCS Is it to emphasise the greatness of the Person who comes in, that He is spoken of as Head of all authority?

JT Yes, it is how Christ enters into the position. Whatever magnifies Him in our minds is to subdue and enlarge us.

PL Such an expression affords spiritual latitude therefore to dwell upon His glories and greatness in infinite variety.

JT I think that is what is meant in Joshua being magnified.

EB Do you mean variety on any given occasion or on successive occasions? I just ask because we have been accustomed to the thought that it was necessary to see in what particular character the Lord would present Himself and follow that up.

JT Yes. If He has to attend to any conditions amongst us that are contrary to the occasion, then it is not so much a question of magnifying Him, but of His service, and He is ready to serve us. But then the Spirit of God would bring in thoughts of Him, all to magnify Him in our eyes and to displace ourselves and any thoughts we may have that might hinder; so that you see it is all a question of Christ; what He leads to. We find that in the type, the whole twelve tribes are in mind — an important matter, that we are not unduly local. Whilst the bread may denote our local units, it also denotes the unity of the saints on earth and I believe that is what is meant in the type; the twelve must be there. The two and a half tribes did not go over, as all the other tribes did, but they went over representatively in the forty thousand warriors, and they are mentioned as they pass over. There must be the whole thought of God in our minds.

GC “In him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily”. Such an expression makes Christ very ^[p. 222] great to our hearts and outside of Him there is nothing for the saints. All these things are brought within our range in that Person.

JT That is exactly what is stated, so as to shut out any thought of mentality, or rhetoric, or music, in a fleshly way, or ceremonialism; philosophy, too, is mentioned here. All these things are shut out, so that there is nothing to mar the occasion. The Lord is free to move according to His own mind. All these things are dealt with effectually.

JFS That would lead us on to what we have in chapter 3: 11 — “Christ is everything, and in all”.

JT That is in relation to the new man. Here it is the fulness of the Godhead dwelling in Christ bodily; that is, within our range. And then as to ourselves, we are “complete in him”. He is on our side, so there is nothing lacking in the position.

JCS Does that refer to the assembly — “complete in him”?

JT It means that we are full — ‘filled full’, as in the margin. There is nothing lacking in Him, so that all ceremonialism and philosophy is shut out as unnecessary — not only as evil, but it is unnecessary. There is no need for it.

AMH It is coupled with circumcision is it not? If we are “complete in him”, I suppose we must accept the other side — the circumcision.

JT That is right, the putting off the body of flesh — the totality of it in the circumcision of Christ. So that in the type in Joshua, we come on to what we have been saying, we come to chapters 3 and 4 — the stones in Gilgal — and then circumcision in chapter 5.

SF Would this teaching preserve the saints from being beguiled by what is of man, and hence detrimental to christianity proper?

JT That is the intent, and of course the teaching has its application to us in our general position, in ^[p. 223] our every-day position, but it has peculiar force when we are together, because these things viewed in that way in our minds would interfere with the service.

FS Is the body of flesh the full range of things in which the flesh finds its life?

JT I think it is more the flesh itself as a power, if allowed. Philosophy and vain deceit allow the flesh, whereas in the circumcision of Christ it is put off as before God.

JCS We have “the body of his flesh” in the former chapters.

JT Here it is the body of the flesh, the totality of it — the body means the whole thing. It is the flesh in me, here the power that works religiously, or philosophically. It is the flesh in these settings, but it is the totality of it.

FS There is nothing of it that is worth keeping.

JT Well, exactly, and it is what is evil, too. God has dealt with it effectively in the circumcision of Christ. The type of course, helps us, because the sharp knives are to show that the thing is thoroughly dealt with, there is the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt. Then what comes into view is the old corn, which means that we are now moving on to Christ. Not the Christ who was here — the same Person, of course, but in another condition. It is Christ, according to the type in Joshua, as indigenous to heaven. It is Christ as He is up there, not simply as He was during the forty days, but as He is up there — that is, the old corn — what is there.

EB What distinction would you make between Christ as up there, and what He was during the forty days?

JT What He was during the forty days was educational; it was not final. It is the same Christ, personally, “the same yesterday, and today, and to the ages to come” (Hebrews 13: 8), as to His Person. But as to His condition, there are variations, and we have to make room for Christ in glory — glorified Christ. So that Philippians speaks of “his body of glory” — we are to be conformed to His body of glory.

JCS Would the old corn of the land embrace the idea of eternal purpose?

JT Yes. It is indigenous to heaven. The old corn means the stored corn, it is presented in that way, Christ as food, but Christ as there already. Not the manna, “the manna ceased”, we are told. Nor is it the shew-bread, which was for the priests. It is Christ as food for heavenly people, that we may be sustained up there. Think of the greatness of that thought, that you can be sustained up there! You are equal to the place, the food sustaining you in it.

Ques Would thoughts as to the Lord’s greatness be expressed to Himself or to the Father?

JT It is quite in order to speak, as in the assembly, to the Lord as known thus. It is what we should do, but if He is on our side, leading us on to, or in, the service of God, then the Father is before us. We have to bear in mind that the assembly as convened has the service of God in view, and if we are going on to that then it is a question of speaking to the Father or God as Christ’s Father.

I think there ought to be ample room in our assembly services for reciprocated affections, in word from our side, between Christ and the assembly. But at the same time ever having in mind that it is a question of the service of God, and that His office as amongst us in that connection is Minister of the sanctuary, and that His face is towards God, as our faces are. So that we proceed to speak to God, and we speak of Christ to God; but then we ought to be able to speak to God as to Himself, what ^[p. 225] He is.

JCS Do you think that calls for more spiritual power?

JT Well, it does, and the object of this meeting is to stir up interest in spirituality. The order of the assembly is fairly well understood, I think, with the exception that we are apt to bring in ceremonialism. That is, certain limitations and rules which would check the flow of life, the free action of life. But generally, the Lord has helped us as to order, but what is needed is spirituality, and the forty days of the Lord’s sojourn here, I believe, are intended to teach us spirituality, they are educational.

CCC The forty days suggest a sphere of great liberty for the Lord in His movements amongst His own, which practically we may restrict by holding on to order in our minds. This may be correct in itself, but hampering the Lord in His movements.

JT Well, I think that is a good remark, because Acts, which has the assembly in mind, begins with this, that the Lord presented Himself living. He presented Himself to His disciples living, and we must not interfere with that. He intends Himself to be seen and known in a certain way at any given time. We want to get that, and we do not want to restrict it. If it be only a question of Himself presented, we shall have a good meeting. Paul’s allusion to His appearings show that we must give the Lord scope, that He may appear. He wishes to have scope to appear to us, to have to say to us.

EB Would that answer to the manifestations in the end of John? Would it be the same sort of idea?

JT It is the same idea as in the three manifestations in John 20 and 21, but it must be remembered that two of these were corrective. The first is the normal one; the one in chapter 20. I think the two subsequent ones are to encourage us that the Lord may turn a corrective service on His part ^[p. 226] into a manifestation; He leaves us with an impression that carries with it a new view of Himself.

JCS I think that is very encouraging and it should help to preserve our spirits, for sometimes we get ruffled when things do not go just as we have expected.

JT So if there is subjection in the meeting, even a low state will bring out a ministration from the Lord which may be viewed as a manifestation; you see Him in a new way. One has often seen that in the meetings.

There are many other things here that time does not permit of dealing with. There is the thought of our taking the ground of being risen on the principle of faith, and then quickened, which is not a matter of faith, but of power. The Spirit of God has operated so as to stir up and enliven our affections. That is a matter of power, but the resurrection is a platform which we are to take up on the way to the great thought of glory in the assembly.

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