THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (3)
[p. 297] THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (3)
John 15: 26, 27; John 16: 1 - 14; John 20: 22, 23
JT We were unable to dwell on the verses read in chapter 14, and they are most important verses, bearing on our subject, which is the Holy Spirit in this gospel. They introduce the Spirit formally as a Divine Person under the name of Comforter, and would seem to show that the Lord comes to us. His coming to us now is dependent on the presence of the Spirit here. So that, having said that He would ask the Father and He would give them another Comforter that He should abide with them for ever, the Spirit of truth, He goes on to say, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you” (verse 18). Then again He says, “But ye see me; because I live ye also shall live”. These remarks or promises are all contingent on the presence of the Spirit here. Verses 15 to 20 contemplate the normal conditions after the Spirit came; but in verses 21 to 26 we have abnormal or remnant conditions; these verses therefore afford most important instruction as to our subject.
WP What is the thought in the Comforter?
JT Firstly, that the Spirit is a divine Person, another Comforter. The Lord Himself was here as a Comforter, in that character with the disciples, and the Spirit would also be here as a Comforter, another Comforter. The original word denotes that the Spirit would be here beside, or alongside us to look after our affairs, to take full charge of our affairs. So the truth of His presence enters peculiarly into meetings like this, assembly meetings. The bearing of the word is towards us in a collective sense. The earlier teaching which we have already had bears on the individual; it is one born anew, or one drinking, asking for living water. It is individual [p. 298] From this point onwards the Spirit is portrayed more as serving the saints in a collective sense.
WP Does that also apply to the Lord saying, “I am coming to you”?
JT What is collective is in mind, only in the abnormal state of things the presence of divine Persons is available to even one saint but that is only because others are not available. Even one will be looked after.
AH Are all the abnormal conditions that you refer to to be found in the present day?
JT I think so. John 14: 23 corresponds with Matthew 18: 19, 20. Instruction with regard to the assembly is divided into two parts. The first has to do with the assembly normally as viewed as intact, representative of heaven here, it has to be told things. The Lord says, “I say to you, that if two of you shall agree on the earth concerning any matter, whatsoever it may be they shall ask, it shall come to them from my Father who is in the heavens. For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18: 19, 20). The two passages correspond: in Matthew it is brought down to two or three; in John it is one person, “If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him” (John 14: 23). That is contingent on the Spirit; it is brought down to one, one person.
WK Does that agree with what we find in Revelation, “If any one hear my voice and open the door” (Revelation 3: 20)?
JT You mean Laodicea — yes, that sort of thing.
FC When you said this was contingent on the coming of the Spirit, are you applying that to what you have just quoted, “I am coming to you”?
JT That promise holds. It is not abrogated any more than the authority of the assembly is abrogated ([p. 299] in Matthew), but we have to use it in a humble way, rather making it a matter of light than assuming to be in the condition contemplated. The conditions have altered, and we are to acknowledge the altered conditions. Verse 21 contemplates that. Some were not keeping the commandments. The Lord says, “He that has my commandments and keeps them ...” He is contemplating the time when some would not love Him, although they have professed to do so. It is well to acknowledge that conditions have altered from apostolic times.
EJ Is binding and loosing (Matthew 18) applicable in an abnormal day?
JT It is a question of how we speak of them. We cannot speak officially, because the binding and loosing in Matthew 18 refer to the assembly in its pristine condition, whereas these verses, and verses 19 and 20 of Matthew 18 refer to remnant times. We should own that conditions have changed, and that someone is responsible for that. We cannot assume to be irresponsible. We have to accept that we have our share in that.
WJH Is your thought in reading this section to help us to see the personal greatness of the Holy Spirit as distinct from the figures used, such as the dove, wind, water, and breath? Here we have the Holy Spirit personally.
JT That is what I thought might be before us now. It cannot be a mere theory. It is a Person, thus establishing the idea of substantiality in a greater sense than any of the others do.
WJH It is interesting, in that connection, that the Spirit is called the Lord the Spirit, as the Lord Jesus, and Lord God; we have the Lord the Spirit, emphasising His personality and greatness.
JT Yes, you mean 2 Corinthians 3: 17, 18. That is, there is a combination there of authority in the Spirit. It is a combination in verse 17. “The Lord is the Spirit”, and, “even as by the Lord the Spirit”. But it also says, “We all, looking on the glory of the Lord, with unveiled face, are transformed according to the same image from glory to glory”. There is a wonderful combination there, worked out in the Spirit’s activities here. How real it is! The point is, that to make the covenant effective in us you need the element of authority as well as the subtle, inscrutable manner in which the Spirit operates in that chapter.
JC Is the Spirit of truth in contrast to what is around today?
JT You can see the force of it. It is in view of error being so prevalent.
CF It says in regard to keeping His commandments that He will manifest Himself to us, and in regard to keeping His word that He makes His abode with us.
JT That helps as to the way the truth is worked out in these verses. The first is, “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me”. The commandments would take you out of that which is contrary to God, as enlarged on in 2 Timothy. ‘The word’ is more the mind of God unfolded, and is more positive. It brings us into tabernacle conditions. I believe that is what is in mind, that one person can afford tabernacle conditions, in withdrawing from what is contrary to God, and observing the general government of the house: and then the word unfolded His mind. It directs us back to the book of Exodus. From chapter 25 it is what God said or commanded, but also what is unfolded in the way of wisdom, as shown to Moses on the mount. It is a very wonderful thought that these verses in Exodus contemplate, and that it is actually found in one person, the person who loves the Lord and shows it by keeping His commandments, and then by keeping His word, as He says to Judas, not the Iscariote, “If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our abode with him”. One christian today can afford tabernacle conditions.
WJH You have in mind, in referring to Exodus, the commandments, and then all the detail of the word treasured by Israel?
JT That is how it stands. We have the commandments first in Exodus, the ten words given in chapter 20, and then we have in that connection the suggestion of lovers of God. It says, “Thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments” (Exodus 20: 6), a very great comforting word in this day. It is not those who should love, but those who do. We can always reckon on lovers of God while the Spirit is here. Jehovah goes on to say to Moses, “in all places where I shall make my name to be remembered, I will come unto thee, and bless thee” (Exodus 20: 24). He immediately announced the thought of coming to His people under certain conditions. They were to make an altar of earth first of all, which implies there is the means of sacrifice, the recognition of what is due to God from man. They could make an altar of stone, but it would not unchristianise them if they could not; but it must be of whole stones, they are not to use a tool on them. We have the humanity of Christ in the altar of earth, and Christ in resurrection in the altar of stone. If we move on to the permanent side all the better, but we are still under divine direction. That is chapter 20, and then in chapters 21 - 24 we begin with the bondman. He says, “I love”. That is, you have the principle of someone who loves. “I love my master, my wife, and my children, I will not go free”. That runs on to chapter 24, and there God says to Moses, ‘You come up, you and Aaron and Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, come up to Me on the mountain’. And [p. 302] before Moses does that or undertakes to do it, he tells Israel what God had said, what God’s requirements were, as much as to say, If I am going up, I want to know that things are right here before I leave, because the principle of going to heaven must depend on having conditions adjusted on earth first. So He tells the people what Jehovah’s requirements were, and they said, “All the words that Jehovah has said will we do!” (Exodus 24: 3). The principle of obedience is accepted unqualifiedly. Whether they fail is another matter. As in the inauguration of christianity this principle is set out first; the great principle of obedience is laid down as to relations with God, and the Lord here brings in the commandments. If we profess to love Him, that is to be evidenced in keeping His commandments. There are many in human organisations who profess to love God but they overlook the commandments. It is in keeping the commandments that we are tested as to our love. Israel accepted it, and they said, “All the words that Jehovah has said will we do”! Then Moses builds twelve pillars. First there is the great principle of obedience, submission to God, and then he builds an altar and offers. He calls upon the youths of Israel to act as priests. They are not priests but they act as priests. It is a fresh state of things. They acted as priests and the blood was put in basons, there was a great deal of it. Moses is going to establish things on the basis of blood, the sprinkling of the blood; and the volume is in evidence, it is put in basons, there is plenty of it there, showing what the death of Christ is in these circumstances. Moses sprinkles the blood on the people and on the altar. So the covenant is set up, the people committing themselves on the ground of obedience, and they profess a second time that they are going to obey. After they said they would obey Moses wrote the words. It is a fixed matter; they [p. 303] committed themselves to it. It is most important to see that if God lays down principles, even if they are only recognised for one hour, the idea is set out. On the basis of all that they went up to the mountain and “They saw the God of Israel; and there was under his feet as it were work of transparent sapphire, and as it were the form of heaven for clearness. And on the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand” (Exodus 24: 10, 11). You have the great definite thought set out in principle, the kind of conditions that there are, that God has, and which He would bring us into. Chapter 25 announces what God requires down here in the tabernacle, and chapters 25 to 40, exclusive of 32 and 33, are taken up with the thought of tabernacle conditions, a place for God to dwell in here.
WP So that we have the thought of abiding here?
JT That is what comes in here. All that, great as it is, extensive as it is in the Old Testament in type; the Lord brings it into a few verses here, and it hinges on the keeping of the commandments and of the word. The keeping of the word is the positive side. It is the mind of God as to what He would wish amongst us, and if that be there the Father will come and the Son will come.
WP Is that what constitutes an overcomer today, the keeping of the commandments, and the keeping of the word?
JT Yes, he affords conditions suitable for divine Persons.
RS Would keeping the commandments enable us to hear the voice of the Spirit speaking to us?
JT It makes scope for the Spirit. That is how the present revival took form. They could see that they could not go on with human organisations, and they withdrew, and in withdrawing they made room for the Spirit: “Let every one who names the name of the Lord withdraw from iniquity” (2 Timothy 2: 19). There was a tract written in those days the title of which was, The Notion of a Clergyman Dispensationally the Sin Against the Holy Ghost; see J.N.D., Collected Writings (Volume 1, page 36). A very strong title! Not that every clergyman is sinning against the Holy Spirit, but the idea is sin; it displaces the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is here to take charge; that is the force of the word, that He takes charge down here of the saints’ affairs, and if a man or a system takes charge the Spirit is shut out. And hence, separating from that, we make room for the Spirit, and the Father, and the Son come to us and make their abode with us.
WP Is this on individual lines, making way for what is collective?
JT It is one person. John does not use collective terms. He is concerned that there should be overcomers, if there are a hundred all the better, but even if it be only one person God comes to him, and makes His abode with him. It is not exactly as in Laodicea, that the Lord is knocking at the door, and saying, “If any one hear my voice and open the door, I will come in unto him and sup with him, and he with me”. That is what He had in mind, that the believer should come into the Lord’s circumstances, but here it is more than that: the Father and the Son come and make their abode with him.
WK “Thou ... hast kept my word” is the word to Philadelphia.
JT It is to the assembly in Philadelphia. The word assembly is used; it is more than one person, but the overcomer is also addressed and there is more said to him than to the whole assembly. The Lord stresses the idea of what belongs to Himself. He uses the word, “my God” four times in referring [p. 305] to the overcomer.
JC In regard to the breakdown in Exodus, collectively, God secured His end in the individual, in the Hebrew servant.
JT Of course that comes in before you get the breakdown. The Hebrew servant is in chapter 21, and the breakdown in chapter 32, but the idea comes out, one man stood in the breach, that is Moses, and he secured the blessing for the people.
WJH Do you not think it is of the greatest importance to keep in mind that what is available on this line today is on the basis of obedience, and love is proved by obedience?
JT I think that is morally the greatest thought, and the Lord brings it in first here, when the question is asked Him. “Yet a little and the world sees me no longer; but ye see me”. And then He says. “He that has my commandments and keeps them, he it is that loves me”. Obedience is the first thing, and then, when one asks, “How is it that thou wilt manifest thyself to us and not to the world?” the answer is, “If anyone love me, he will keep my word ...”. It is the same thought of obedience, but it includes more. It is the opening up of God’s mind, not only what He required, but what is in His mind. “He spoke, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast” (Psalm 33: 9). The speaking is opening up the thing, what is in His mind, and the commandment caused it to stand.
RS What is the difference between the ‘word’ and the present voice of the Spirit?
JT Not much. In the addresses to the assemblies, the Lord’s word is given in every case. Each assembly receives a message from the Lord’s own lips, and to each assembly it is said, “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the assemblies”. What I apprehend by that is that the Spirit opens up what the Lord has said, and enlarges upon it, and that ministry runs right on to [p. 306] the end. What the Spirit says is not written. It is for you to hear what He is saying at any given period. The Spirit may take what the Lord says and He may use you or a hundred brothers to open it up, and apply it according to the circumstances. We are called upon to hear him.
WJH The apostle speaks of the Holy Spirit witnessing in every city; in every city he went into at that time he could hear the voice of the Spirit. That is the thing, that we should make room for the Spirit.
JT Quite so, and that would open up a good deal of what is called ministry meetings, a new appellation as to meetings. What is in mind is the meeting contemplated in 1 Corinthians 14, where the whole assembly is said to come together in one place, where a brother has something, and another brother, and another. All these ‘somethings’ may be a word for the moment, a given word, what the Spirit is saying. It shows how important these meetings are, that the brethren come together in dependence on the Lord so that the Spirit has scope to speak.
WP Is the speaking on the lines of what is prophetic and what is edifying?
JT That is what is required. The apostle urges on prophecy, and, indeed, instruction comes into it, “And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge” (1 Corinthians 14: 29). That is the point, it is for prophetic ministry, not to announce coming events, but to bring God in.
WP Would the thought of what is edifying be included? Is it not included in that same chapter?
JT It is, it says prophecy edifies.
WP Does “I am coming to you”, apply to assembly meetings, or does it apply to all our meetings?
JT It is very general, but another thing that comes out in that connection is that God, or divine Persons, take advantage of opportunities, and the [p. 307] greatest opportunity for the incoming of the Lord is when the saints are engaged with the Lord’s supper, because it is intended to call Him to mind. That is the greatest opportunity for Him, and He will seize that. I should not confine it to the assembly, but it refers to it particularly, that the Lord comes on that occasion.
WK Would “I am coming to you” be something different from a manifestation?
JT Yes, manifestation is one thing; coming is another. “I am coming to you” is collective. The pronoun is collective, it is a plural word. “I will manifest myself to him” is individual. “We will come to him” is individual.
WP Would you say something about chapters 15 and 16?
JT This is a most important section. I thought we might go back to see chapter 14. The Lord says, “These things I have said to you, abiding with you; but the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and will bring to your remembrance things which I have said to you” (verse 26). Notice the word “in my name;” the Lord, I think, has remnant times in mind in saying that. Remnant times stress the idea of His name, when other names have been taken on. He says to Philadelphia, “Thou hast not denied my name”. Other christians took on other names, but Philadelphia did not, and the Lord honours it on that account. The Holy Spirit is here, it says, in the Lord’s name, and He brings to our remembrance things that might be forgotten, “all the things which I have said to you”, He says, meaning that you do not need ten thousand teachers. It does not mean that men may not be used (that is how He teaches, through men, but not in the sense of men as in christendom). I believe it links on with the Lord’s supper, the idea of [p. 308] remembrance.
WP Does this link up with Matthew “where two or three are gathered together unto my name”? (Matthew 18: 20).
JT Yes, “my name” and recalling things. The things we are going on with today were, no doubt, ministered before, but they have been forgotten; the Spirit is bringing them back to us.
AH Does that cover all the apostolic writings too, not merely what the Lord said to them personally?
JT Quite so, in applying it spiritually to where we are now, it would include all that has been forgotten. Everything had been forgotten, or distorted, or added to, even the very term church. The apostle is bringing these things back to us.
AH We recognise that what the apostle Paul wrote are the commandments of the Lord (see 1 Corinthians 14: 37).
WK Would it give one a great sense of the office of the Spirit?
JT Yes, and it explains what the prophet says, in meetings like this if there is room given for the Spirit, the truth is opened up to us. It is immense to see all this, and attend to these things. The Spirit is there in the character of the Comforter, the One who is taking charge of things. The principle is opened up. One brother says one thing, and another brother says another; the Holy Spirit is behind it all, and you have things unfolded in every meeting.
WP So you would be very jealous as to anything that might come in to hinder that?
JT Quite so. Now in chapter 15 it is the Spirit sent out by the Lord Himself, “whom I will send to you from the Father”. In chapter 14 the Father sends Him in Christ’s name. Here the Son sends Him from the Father. What is in mind is that He should bring out all the thoughts of heaven, what the Father thinks about Christ. He is coming out [p. 309] from being with the Father, it says. “But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes forth from with the Father, he shall bear witness concerning me” (verse 26). No other translation has this, save this one. It is stressing the idea of the Spirit being with the Father. He comes out, announcing perfectly all the Father’s thoughts.
WP Does coming forth from with the Father involve that the Son is there?
JT The Son is there to send Him. It is as much as to say that the Son and the Father combined to send the third Person, and He is perfectly announcing what is up there.
WP Would that include the relationship between the Father and the Son?
JT Yes, and it includes Paul’s doctrine. It says, “Ye too”. I believe Paul was in mind, particularly, that the Spirit should bear witness “concerning me”, as the Lord says, concerning Him as up there, not as down here. Paul says, We do not know Christ in any other way. “If even we have known Christ according to flesh, yet now we know him thus no longer” (2 Corinthians 5: 16). It is the Christ that is up there. The Lord says, “Ye too bear witness, because ye are with me from the beginning” (John 15: 27).
WJH You find something of that in the beginning of Acts. The apostle Peter can say what is happening in heaven: “Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God” (Acts 2: 33). He had not been there, but he is able to declare what he saw there.
JT The apostle Paul’s communication is distinctively heavenly. The Lord appeared to him as He was up there. That is the suggestion. “Why persecutest thou me?” The Lord never said that to Peter. It is the Christ that is up there that appears [p. 310] to Paul, and after that we have the unfolding of the mystery. So John says, “We shall see him as he is” (1 John 3: 2), as He is up there; it is unfolded by the Spirit.
WK Would it be right to say that the Spirit has first-hand knowledge of all that is in heaven?
JT It comes to our way of thinking. The Lord assures us there is not anything up there that is not to be brought out here by the Spirit. I believe the Lord is operating on these lines today, to prepare us for heavenly things. We are presently going there, and are to be instructed as to what Christ is up there. Paul says, “... the heavens, from which also we await the Lord Jesus Christ as Saviour, who shall transform our body of humiliation into conformity to his body of glory” (Philippians 3: 20, 21), into likeness to His body of glory, not His body of resurrection, His body of glory. Then in chapter 16, the Lord goes further and says that the Spirit would show us things to come, show us and guide us into all truth. “Guide”, I believe, applies as much to our Bible readings as to anything else. One says one thing, and another says another, and the Spirit of God takes control and guides us into all truth, where brethren are subject. Where there is error, this is precluded. The idea is the Spirit is here to take charge, to guide us into the thing. How would we get on otherwise? To have a Bible reading without the Spirit we would need to have the creeds and commit them to memory. If we are dependent on the Spirit He guides us in spite of our weakness.
WP Do you think that sometimes we are in danger of being dependent on our memory instead of being dependent on the Spirit?
JT That may be so; the great thing is, first, obedience, and then making room for the Spirit. “The Lord the Spirit”. The Spirit is here in His [p. 311] own inscrutable way, and the truth comes out in meetings like these.
WJH The Spirit draws on His great reservoir, on all that the Lord has ever said at any time.
JT And then, what a wonderful thing it is to be brought into all the wonderful thoughts of divine Persons in heaven. All that is brought in amongst the brethren. “The Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God” (1 Corinthians 2: 10).
WP And does the Spirit also draw upon what is formed in the souls of the saints as brethren together?
JT He does. It is a question of what we have. The chapter in Corinthians contemplates that we come together. We come together to get something. It is not what is in the place that the Holy Spirit works on. On the occasion of the ship-wreck in Melita the people who were friendly made a fire (the local meeting makes the fire), but the apostle Paul added to it. That is the principle of revival. What is there is added to.
CF Would you say that in these three portions you have mentioned we get the testimony of the Spirit in the past, the present, and the future? He brings to remembrance the things that Jesus spoke, and He comes as from the Father to make present things known, and He testifies as to things to come.
JT That is right. So it says here (verse 7), “it is profitable for you that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Comforter will not come to you; but if I go I will send him to you. And having come, he will bring demonstration to the world, of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment ... But when he is come, the Spirit of truth, he shall guide you into all the truth; for he shall not speak from himself; but whatsoever he shall hear he shall speak; and he will announce to you what is coming. He shall glorify me, for he shall receive of mine and shall announce it to you”. So we are led on to the future in what the Spirit unfolds to us.
RS Is it only what is announced to us by the Spirit that we can speak of?
JT Quite so. You notice the change of verbs, ‘He guides’, and ‘He announces’ things, and then another thing is He brings into this world demonstration of certain things, sin, righteousness, and judgment. How important that is for us at any given time, that things are demonstrated.
AH Will you tell us how they are demonstrated, in what way?
JT Well, in the coming in of the Spirit, as at Pentecost, the Lord brought out that He became identified with the disciples of Jesus. Jesus had been put to death by the Jews, and the Spirit came to the disciples, not to the Jews. That is a local demonstration of those whom He can say that to them He gave His Spirit. And so, at any given time today, it is a demonstration of that, that He is not with those who have not the truth, but with those who have it.
WJH That is the thing to keep the eye on in any difficulty as to doctrine. Where the Spirit of God is, where spiritual power is, where the Lord’s presence is.
JT That is always the final word. You may have books written; doctrine is important, but the final word is where God is. If God is among you, what can anybody say?
WJH I was thinking in that connection that the divine answer, when the murmurings took place, was the glory; that settles everything.
JT It is beautiful, in the Old Testament, how God comes in and the glory settles everything; and so the ministry is demonstrative. So that if a man who is a stranger comes in among you he falls down and says, “God is indeed amongst you”. That settles everything.
WP What is the next thought as to righteousness?
JT The next thing is the demonstration of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment, “of sin, because they do not believe on me; of righteousness, because I go away to my Father, and ye behold me no longer; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged”. That is to say, Jesus is with the Father, there is nothing more right than that, than the fact that Jesus is with the Father, He was a righteous Man here; and that same principle will always hold; there will be some evidence of how God regards a righteous man. This righteous Man has the most exalted place in the universe. That is righteousness, there is nothing more right than that.
CWP Why is it the thought of the Father, not God?
JT Well, I suppose it is the place of love. The Lord is in the place of love. There is nothing at all between Him and the Father. The issue is between Christ and the Jews; the cross brought that out. The Jews, while professedly not wishing to get rid of God (the issue was between Christ and them) put Christ to death; God glorified Him, God settles the question; the Jews are guilty, Christ is exonerated, Christ is exalted.
EAM The Father sent the Son.
JT Yes, He is in the place of supreme blessedness as over against the Jews’ claims. They pretend to be acting for God, but God settles the matter in this way. God will come in and settle the matter in all crises if we give Him time. He will show where the truth is.
WP Had you in mind that that is seen in the thought of judgment?
JT That is so. The prince of this world [p. 314] is judged. The Holy Spirit brings out that the whole matter is settled. The presence of the Spirit of God here for over nineteen hundred years means that the thing is settled, the ruler of this world is already, judged (verse 11).
JJ Would you have time to say a little on chapter 20?
JT The Spirit is viewed as the breath of Christ, and I think it is for the helping of our brethren who are in associations that are sinful. “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained”. That is a great weapon in our hands in dealing with brethren who are in organisations that are sinful. Anything of man is sinful. There are thousands who are in these organisations, and the thing is, not to impute the sinfulness to them, but to accept them as brethren on the ground of forgiveness. “Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them”. The Lord says, as it were, ‘I am with you in that’. We have a blank cheque for any amount. It is a question of confidence. The Lord has confidence in us. We are not to treat them harshly, but treat them as brethren, take them up on the ground of forgiveness, until they show that they are rebellious. The Lord has confidence in us as loving Him. He says, I give you liberty to forgive them; if you forgive them, I do. It is a great weapon in our hands. It does not mean that we do not sin, but it is that we accept them as our brethren. If they go back we have to leave it. We retain sins. We may have to retain sins against people.
FC You could not condone it when it is the Holy Spirit that is grieved?
JT Quite so. It is the last Adam, the life-giving Spirit, and He sets us up in life. He directs us back to the wonderful way He dealt with men here, how gracious He was. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself” (2 Corinthians 5: 19).
AS A question was asked about christians in systems of men.
JT You know he is a christian; he may be an Anglican, but you do not abuse the system he is in, you speak to him about Christ first. John’s gospel begins with the great truth of the Person of Christ, and if he were a christian at all he would be glad to know something about that. He is not a christian if he does not listen to John 1. Leave the matter of associations till he is interested in the Person of Christ. What is he saying about Christ? The Lord says, ‘What are men saying about me?’ John’s gospel is that. If a man is a christian he will say the things John says.
CF The breathing here is different from the breathing in Genesis. The vessel had been formed to receive the Holy Spirit and then He could say these things to them.
JT After the message had come to them through Mary they are called brethren. The Lord says to them, “As the Father sent me forth, I also send you”. You can see what an exalted place He has given us.
JC Breathing on them would give spiritual power. Does it need spiritual power to overcome?
JT It is the spirit in which we approach people. So He puts forgiveness first. In Matthew 18, the binding is first because He has the Jews in mind. This gospel is later. It has in mind that our brethren are mixed up in all sorts of things, and we want to get them clear, and so we approach them in the spirit of forgiveness.
WP In the beginning of these meetings you spoke of the lower affections, and of the higher affections; will you say something of [p. 316] the higher affections?
JT The higher affections are in mind in this. The Lord is saying, I have confidence in you, I am allowing you to forgive, and if you forgive I do too.
AH A very intimate action, was it not?
JT Very! It ought to touch our hearts. The Lord has come near to us and made us His own, and has breathed into us.
EAM Is the thought here that the Holy Spirit is given that we should be a people set up here in holiness?
JT Quite so, it is not what attaches to Christ personally; the word ‘holy’ is not applicable with regard to Him. Here it is the Spirit. We need the added thought of holiness. It implies, if you have such, the Holy Spirit, the Lord can trust you. It constitutes us holy in this way, and then He trusts us. I do not know anything so much to be desired as to be trusted by the Lord.
WK Chapter 21 illustrates His own way of dealing with things.
JT That is an appendix, as if He said, I will give them a further thought. It is His own way of recovering the leading servants, those who went astray, and it is to show how He can restore the leading servants.