THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (2)
[p. 280] THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT (2)
John 7: 37 - 39; John 14: 15 - 26
JT Brethren will understand that our object in these readings is not only to call attention to the fact of the Spirit’s presence here in a doctrinal way, but to speak of Him as here in a substantial, spiritually tangible way, so that each christian may be able to determine how much he proves and realises the presence of the Spirit, so that our christianity may not be merely a matter of doctrine or theory, but in reality, enjoyment and power. We have already considered chapter 4, which, with chapter 7, treats of the Spirit as typified by water. We noted first of all the symbol of a dove as suggestive of the totality of the Spirit here coming on Jesus (chapter 1) and then as wind effecting the new birth (chapter 3); and then in chapter 4, as we said we had water, another tangible suggestion. What came before us, among many other things, as to chapter 4 was that it was the Spirit from the standpoint of satisfaction. Water as being drunk suggests satisfaction. We have in chapter 6 the idea of food, the bread that came down from heaven, which is for building up our constitution, for support; but water symbolises refreshment or satisfaction. The effect and bearing of chapter 4 is towards God, or at least upward, in the believer. It is said to be a fountain springing up into everlasting life, a fountain of water. That is, it is the Spirit affecting us so that He acts in us automatically, not necessarily through our intelligence. He operates in the automatic organs so to speak in the sense that there is a springing up into everlasting life, into the realm of unending satisfaction. In chapter 7 He is seen in the converse way of flowing out in testimony. It is formally stated, in this passage, that the Lord in the use of the figure [p. 281] of water alluded to the Holy Spirit. “This he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive”. And His presence here is seen as the consequence of Jesus being glorified.
WJH I was thinking that while the Spirit of God is ever invisible, yet it must be tangible, and clear to any one that there are those who are completely altered on the earth, and there are those who are satisfied. That can be seen. It is substantial in that way.
JT So that it is a question of the effect of the Spirit. In chapter 4 the believer’s body comes under notice particularly, bringing out the idea of a vessel. The woman had brought a vessel to draw water and take it back with her, but as having listened to what the Lord said and being affected she left it, meaning that she understood at least instinctively that she herself was to be the vessel of living water.
WP Do we learn from that that the spring is within us?
JT I think that is what is meant. The principle is seen in the service she rendered in the city. She went to the men and said, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?” It is not only the words, but evidently something accompanying the words, some change in herself that affected them. She was not the person they had known. It sets forth the great change that comes over one who has the Spirit. It affects the testimony.
FC Does the idea of change come into this here?
JT I think it is just the counterpart of chapter 4. The idea of the vessel is set out in chapter 4, that is, set out in an informal way, “The water which I shall give him shall become in him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life”. That is, the thing is seen as acting, not merely static. It is the principle throughout that what God intends for service [p. 282] is acting as you see. It is exemplified, and she, in immediately going to the city and leaving her waterpot shows she understood, and was functioning as to what she understood, that her own body was a vessel able to convey the idea of living water to others. And that is enlarged upon in chapter 7 because the location of the body is formally stated, that out of which the water flows, meaning it is a question of affections, not, as we shall see later, lungs, that is breath. It is more the compassionate side that is in mind, which flows out from the lower affections.
AH Is the springing up to be before the flowing out?
JT That is the order. Chapter 4 is for satisfaction; not only am I satisfied, but what I have springs up into finality, a final state of things that is to be apprehended by the christian. Eternal life is viewed not as in the believer but as an order of things into which a believer has access by the power of the Spirit and water flows up into that.
FC Would you help as to its setting? Why is it the last day of the feast?
JT It is satisfaction. Where the best in the religious world fails you, you have what is altogether satisfying in Christ. The feast of tabernacles was the best, the final feast of the year in Israel and carried forward cumulatively all the other feasts from the passover onwards. It is a cumulative thought, it is all that there was, as it were, in the religious order of things; it was all there in principle and it failed. It was the last great day of the feast, and the Lord infers that there was a possibility of thirst, in spite of the feast and the greatness of the day. One can see the applicability of that now, in view of what christianity has become. Public christianity has become an absolute failure as to satisfaction. They have all sorts of things to meet the [p. 283] desires of the young, even to the extreme of ordinary dances in church halls, to endeavour to meet the religious need of man or of young people, but it fails, and that is where the testimony of real christians comes in, because you have what satisfies.
WJH Is that not also in evidence amongst us? Are there not those holding the truth in an orthodox way merely, without the power of the Spirit operating? Such are not satisfied.
JT If souls turned into our meetings, what is intended is that there should be something satisfying. The Spirit is there.
WP Does the thought of satisfaction extend to God as well as to us?
JT If it be a question of service Godward, the figure used is a drink offering in the types. It is called strong drink, a very remarkable thing that is used as a type of Christ presented to God sacrificially by the saints. In Numbers 28 and 29 that subject is gone into extensively in the type, and the strong drink was never to be lacking in the offerings, alluding to the stimulating of God, speaking reverently, by the presentation of Christ in the service of His people. That is never to be lacking, it is to be presented.
WK Does it account for the fact that in chapter 4 the Father seeks worshippers?
JT That is so. The subject is brought in there. The woman introduced it, and the Lord did not shrink from speaking of it, because the thought is intimately linked up with the ascending power of the Spirit; it is not an artificial or man-made service, it is spontaneous, as God comes before us.
WP Does the strong drink of the drink offering suggest there is a springing up in a joyous way?
JT That is the thought. God does not shrink from using the figure of strong drink in spite of the fact that the first time it is mentioned it caused a [p. 284] man to be drunk. It is His own creature, and He uses it as a figure of the stimulating power of Christ in the service of His people. I think the announcement from heaven at the Jordan suggests this, it was the opening up that He was the Beloved Son in whom the delight of heaven is found.
JC Does the springing up and the flowing out suggest living power?
JT Well, that is the thought. It is not effort, either in service Godward or manward; it is real power and enjoyment. Every bit of service toward God or to man ought to occasion us enjoyment. The Lord is not wearied with the service in John 4; He is not wearied speaking to the woman, speaking about God, He was wearied with His journey. As Paul says, “In journeyings often” (2 Corinthians 11: 26), but weariness with service is not mentioned.
WP And at the end of his days he could say I am ready to be poured out.
JT Yes, as a sacrifice, a sort of libation, and that was a drink offering; that is what is meant, “on the sacrifice and ministration of your faith”, that is whatever the Philippians offered, Paul would add to it. What a joy he was to Heaven!
JC Would not being wearied in service show the resource we have in the Spirit?
JT Well, quite so. There is joy in it in dealing with souls, in dealing with spiritual things, your soul is affected joyously. The body may be wearied, but it was with the journey as the Lord says, and Paul makes much of that as to what he endured physically, mentioning even the journeyings he had.
WK As the psalmist says, I will praise God with my whole being.
JT Yes, all that is within me, another said. Chapter 4 helps us as to all that is within us. There is purification first, in the way the Lord dealt with the woman; He told her all things that ever she had [p. 285] done. Calling upon all that is within you means the organs are all clear, and there is spontaneous response. The inward man is set free. How could I glorify or praise God, as Peter says, if the inwards are not pure.
WK Is the idea of the vessel suggested in chapter 2?
JT Yes, only there it is the vessel of the water of purification. There are two lines of thought in John, the water of purification, which has an external application, and then there is water for drinking, which is internal. They run together. If we are to call upon all that is within us to worship God, the water of purification must come in. The Lord Jesus came by water and blood, not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that bears witness. The Spirit applies the water, so that we are said to be born of water (chapter 3). We have purification in chapter 2 in the vessels, the six waterpots; but the water of purification becomes wine. The water we drink of does not become wine, the point is refreshment and satisfaction, not stimulation.
WP Is there teaching for us in the fact that the woman in going to the men of the city does not speak of the water, but of the Man, “Come, see a man”.
JT The subject of the testimony in the gospel is Christ, not that the Holy Spirit does not come in too, but it is the gospel concerning God’s Son. It seems therefore as if the woman acted wonderfully from the spiritual instinct. She knew just what to say and she went to the men of the city, those who knew her; she was inspired by courage, she carried in her demeanour the testimony of the Lord’s word to her. What a change it brought about in her!
CE With the woman there was no effort.
JT There was no effort, and that is a point [p. 286] to get to, for if we are to be used of the Lord we must recognise the Spirit as the power of service Godward and manward; so that our service is not carried on in a perfunctory way, but in a living way. We are actuated by life. The Lord says in John 6: 63, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing: the words which I have spoken unto you are spirit and are life”. The flesh profits nothing; whether cultivated or religious, it profits nothing. We must serve in the Spirit.
WP Would that be the exercise with us as to all our comings together during the week and at other times?
JT It should enter into everything, it takes the form of the anointing too, not only life, satisfaction, energy, but dignity. The idea of the anointing is that we come together in a dignified way and serve in a dignified way. We do not need to put on the ‘cloth’ as it is called, to make us appear dignified, we are dignified by the anointing. This is another phase of the Spirit.
WK In regard to the question of what is inward, is it the Spirit as inward power for enjoyment as the soul enters into divine things, as well as the Spirit viewed outwardly?
JT It is not the anointing that is in view here; that is another feature that is in mind. As we come together in our meetings, and take up service, all is carried on in a dignified way, not with the polish of a seminary or of a university, but in the dignity of the Spirit. So it says of Stephen that they saw his face as the face of an angel, it had a dignified and heavenly appearance.
AH Would the flowing out suggest service manward?
JT That is the idea. There is the idea of volume; there is nothing trivial or small about the saints of God as they know the service of the Spirit [p. 287] flowing out in rivers. The allusion is to Genesis 2. The Lord said, “As the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water”. We have to find out where the scripture says that; we shall not miss it if we search. The allusion is perhaps to Genesis 2, and other rivers, possibly all the rivers of blessing that Scripture speaks of. I suppose it is that Scripture says it in effect. If I say a thing in effect it has practically the same force as if formally stated in words.
WJH We have that distinctly with regard to the Lord. “He shall be called a Nazaraean” (Matthew 2: 23). The actual words are not used, but it is said in effect.
AH “It is more blessed to give than to receive”, is another example.
JT Yes. I think the rivers of Genesis 2 would help as illustrating what is before us. The river went out of Eden to water the garden, as if there was a special spot God had in mind that must be kept fruitful. Adam was over the garden to keep it, but the river was to water it. In any rainless district the idea of a river acquires great significance. The river went out of Eden, which was a wider thought than the garden but it was to water the garden. God was to have a spot where the energy of life should be always seen; the garden should never come under sterile influences, but should be always fresh and fruitful, Adam dressing and keeping it, and the river watering it. From thence it was parted, it says, and became four heads or streams, meaning universal power and influence by refreshment.
WP Are you suggesting that the effect of the waters flowing out of our inmost parts would be that the garden of the Lord would be watered?
JT That is where we are to begin. I believe that at Pentecost that was seen. Those who were there [p. 288] got the benefit first and then it went out. It says, “we hear them each in our own dialect”.
RS Would the thought of the river also indicate the source from which it flows?
JT It runs through the Scriptures. The source is more definite than Eden. Eden is a wide idea. The word means ‘pleasure’, I believe, and it is a great thought that the source is of that character. But as you go down through the Scriptures, you find, as in Ezekiel, that the source of the water was the house (Ezekiel 47), involving suffering, for it came from beneath the altar. The Holy Spirit, in His world-wide effect is here, not only because Jesus is glorified, but because He suffered. In Exodus 17 the point as to the water is that the rock was smitten. It is the death of Christ; but when we come to Revelation 22, the water flows out from the throne, it is a question of authority, of government. So, the idea of the source is made very definite for us. Here the source is Christ glorified in heaven. When He was glorified this would take effect. The Spirit is sent down from heaven, and the immediate channel or vessel is the believer, “He that believes on me”, it is the believer; faith is thus stressed.
JM With regard to the lower affections, are you suggesting that this is not the highest part of our service?
JT It is more elevated, flowing out of chapter 20, where the Lord breathes into His own. This is a most important and practical side of the truth, it means that the saints are delivered from the flesh. That is what chapter 4 means: that as one is delivered from the flesh, all the inner organs are available for the Spirit and so there is automatic action, a springing up.
JM Does it suggest we have compassions now?
JT That is the thought, I think. This part of the body is usually called the reins, for the side of [p. 289] compassion, and indeed, for instruction. Psalm 16: 7 says, “Even in the nights my reins instruct me”. The Spirit of God in you, perhaps in the wakeful hours of the night, gives promptings, it is not merely mental action, but thoughts come to you, automatically, as it were, thoughts that you never had before. The secret of that is that the Spirit is there, that He has movement, that He has not to strive against the flesh, but has room to suggest things to you. That is of great importance in regard to the service of God, that as we are sitting together in assembly we should be free from the flesh, and allowing the Spirit to be free to suggest thoughts in regard to God. So too in service to man the Spirit gives substance.
WJH Would you say a word as to the difference between the idea of a fountain and a river?
JT Well, I suppose the thought in the fountain is more living, more active; it springs up, the effect is upward, whereas a river is governed by gravity. A river flows out, but it is governed by gravity, by some principle that directs it some particular way. Gravity spiritually is that your mind is in that direction, the mind is controlling things in the service of God, the river flows out, but the vessel is regarded as intelligent. The woman in chapter 4 was intelligent as to what she was doing. The bent of her mind was towards souls, and the water flowed in that direction.
WJH The fountain would be upward towards God so that the apostle says, that if He was beside himself it was to God. That was Godward, it would not be towards man.
JT How ready the Spirit is to move in that direction!
CF Jeremiah 2: 13 says, “My people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters”. Is that in contrast to the woman [p. 290] now?
JT She had not forsaken Him. The Lord said to her, “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is”. In truth God was there. She was brought to God, and He was the fountain, really, in Christ, but it is very striking that the bent of her mind led her to the men, and the water flowed in that direction.
CE To be in continual touch with Eden means that water flows freely from the believer because he is in touch with Christ in glory.
JT That is right, we must get into touch with Christ in glory; it is not exactly the heavenly side, though John is full of that. We must distinguish between Christ in glory and Christ in heaven. The Man who glorified God on earth is glorified in heaven, and the Spirit is here on that account. So we have a wonderful setting here. The Lord spoke here about the Spirit which they that believed on Him were about to receive. The question is whether we have faith. That is the great thing to see to, if we are to come into this service, faith makes room for the Spirit.
AS Do you connect faith with intelligence? It is a further thought than instinct.
JT It is an act of intelligence, faith is usually accredited to the believer. The Lord was to be an object of faith in heaven. “Ye believe on God, believe also on me” (John 14: 1). That is stressed in this gospel. How good it was to believe on Him when the whole force was against Him! Everything hinged on faith.
WJH Would you say a little as to the distinction between Christ being glorified and being in heaven?
JT Heaven is His place: “If then ye see the Son of man ascending up where he was before?” (John 6: 62). “No one has gone up into heaven, save he who came down out of heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven” (John 3: 13). That is His [p. 291] place, He is really indigenous to the place, but glorification is a moral thought. Because of what He was here God has glorified Him there. It hinges on what He was here as Man, deserving glory. He says, “Glorify me ... with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was” (John 17: 5). He says, “I have glorified thee on the earth” (John 17: 4), and He ascends to be glorified. He begins with “Father ... glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee” (John 17: 1). I believe God has given Him a place in heaven consequent on what He was here, and as glorified in heaven, He is now glorifying God down here.
WJH What is the connection between that and the gift of the Spirit in that relation?
JT It is the merit of Christ in a moral sense as up there, the honour accorded to Him on account of personal merit, not exactly on personal grounds as belonging to Him, but on the ground of merit.
WP Does what you say involve that the Spirit of God would come from the Man who is glorified in view of bringing to pass a similar thing on earth?
JT Yes; as in heaven, as glorified. “Father ... glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee”. He means, I think, that He can do more now that He is glorified above than He could do down here. He could only go so far down here; now that He is glorified, He can carry things on further. That is going on in the formation of the assembly through the proclamation of the gospel.
WK Is that following on the gift of the Spirit?
JT The gift of the Spirit is consequent on that. “Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God”, Peter says (Acts 2: 33).
AH In that sense He says He was straitened until His death were accomplished.
WK Does that fit in with what He said, “The [p. 292] works which I do shall he do also, and he shall do greater than these”? (John 14: 12).
JT All that is going on ever since, that He should glorify the Father here, as glorified Himself above.
WP Why do you think Christ being glorified enters into this and not into the previous reference to the Spirit?
JT Because of testimony going out, it should be on its proper footing. As Peter says, “Having therefore been exalted by the right hand of God, ... he has poured out this which ye behold and hear” (Acts 2: 33). He instances the fact that the Lord Jesus had been exalted. In his address he calls attention to Christ here, but now He is exalted, and the testimony is flowing out from heaven.
WP The testimony is really to an exalted Man. Is that the idea?
JT That is right, and He is carrying it on to glorify the Father, so that every convert is glorifying the Father. That is how the Thessalonians stand, they are a result of the testimony, they are regarded as in God the Father, and the Father is pleased with them.
AH It is good to have these elevated thoughts before us today in spite of the confusion around us.
JT It is an immense thing as it lifts you above what man is doing. The enemy is working might and main to blot out the testimony altogether, but God has revived it. He calls attention to Christ in heaven, and those who have faith carry the testimony on here.
WP So that in the carrying out of that we see testimony as to Christ’s present position.
JT Yes, and Peter’s first address greatly helps, he set out the thought of elevation. He stood up with the eleven: it was on the ground of gift, but gifts from an exalted Christ. Paul says, “He that descended [p. 293] is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens” (Ephesians 4: 10), and hence the gifts, some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers. It is a great thing to get into our souls that the Centre is in heaven.
WP In that way you see what is substantial in a practical way in the saints.
JT Quite so.
FC Does the idea of the flowing out take its character from Genesis, in relation to the respective features that mark the flowing out of the rivers?
JT The four heads would be universality. The gospel should go out everywhere, not only as light, but as influence. The Lord says, “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations” (Matthew 28: 19). For that you must have the river. That is the power of grace operating in the servants. You make disciples, you influence them.
FC I was thinking of the feature of the gold, “the gold of that land is good” (Genesis 2: 12), and then that part is described as producing precious stones.
JT We are told where the wonderful rivers flowed and the gold of that land was good. You interpret that in relation to the assembly, that historically the western part of the world is in mind, the outgoings from Europe, God having gold for His purpose in that particular part of the world.
WP The gold being found where the water flowed involves the work of God.
JT Gold is the work of God, the influence of Christ flowing out in testimony brings that to light.
WP That would be an influence on the gospel preacher as to where he preaches. They had the work of God in view.
JT Hence you have not only to get to the Lord about your subject, but as to where you are to present [p. 294] it, and that is the thought in Acts 16, where so much is made of the apostle being guided to Europe where he should present the testimony.
AH What have you to say about chapter 14?
JT The idea is the Person of the Holy Spirit which stands connected with the Lord’s coming to us; it all points to what is real and tangible.
WJH Is it not important to see that any powerful influence as amongst the saints depends upon being satisfied? There are so many one would question about as to whether they are really satisfied.
JT That is one of the most important things for the young amongst us. They have a hard battle; I know well enough how things are. These readings ought to appeal to them. The world is appealing to them, and they would not perhaps tell us always what they are experiencing, but there is a battle going on. What has been said here ought to be noted by the young amongst us; the Lord was at the well, apparently circumstantially or accidentally, but it was not accidental, on account of a soul that was not satisfied. She had drunk deeply into the world, but was unsatisfied and the Lord has great regard for that. It says, “The trees of Jehovah are satisfied” (Psalm 104: 16). And this chapter is to show how the believer comes into satisfaction. The Lord opens up the full position. It is in regard of Deity here, “If thou knewest the gift of God” (John 4: 10); what God is giving. Look at Christ, look at the bounty of God. What testimony there is in the heavens and on the earth as to the bounty of God. But then the Lord is not speaking of that, great as that is; He is speaking of something else, “If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is ... thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water”. That is a word for every single person. The Lord is in that attitude; He came into lowly circumstances that you should [p. 295] be in the presence of God and know the infinitude of divine giving, so that you might ask, that you might get to God, if you are not satisfied. Everything in creation is for Him so the individual believer gets to God, and as he does he becomes satisfied.
WJH Is it not the same feature in chapter 7 also in regard to flowing out, “If any one thirst, let him come to me, and drink”? Then you can go out as satisfied.
JT And the effect there is greater in the sense of volume, and faith is stressed. It is not so much asking in John 7 as in John 4. In John 7 it is faith, so I am challenged as to whether I have faith. “If any one thirst, let him come to me and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this he said concerning the Spirit, which they that believed on him were about to receive”. It is a question of faith. There is asking in chapter 4, in the presence of God, in the presence of the One who is there. But in chapter 7 this despised Man in the midst of all the religious show, says, ‘Believe on me’. That is the test; in the midst of the religion around today. I am called upon to believe on the lowly Jesus, who has no outward show attached to him at all.
WP Is that the force of “Let him come to me”?
JT Yes, all over against the religious world all around. His brethren said, ‘Show thyself to the world’. But He went up in testimony and kept, as it were, in obscurity.
D Is there any significance in the words “Jesus stood and cried, saying”?
JT I think it is the urgency of the moment, a cry from Him in testimony means urgency. You can understand how the Lord felt the thousands of Israel endeavouring to get help at the feast of tabernacles [p. 296] and there was not any. It was utter barrenness, and how He feels about it now!
WP That would appeal to our hearts at the present moment, if we come to meetings and do not get satisfaction, the Lord feels in regard to it.
JT The Lord’s feelings ought to be reflected in us. The cry is urgency, He wanted everybody to hear; it is remarkable that He should cry!