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THE WORK OF GOD IN THE SAINTS (2)

SMcC Time did not permit our referring to chapters 40 and 43, parts of which we read this morning, and we might perhaps just consider them for a moment, particularly chapter 43, but alluding to chapter 40 which brings us within the range of a great scope of things as to the truth. We have considered the great character of the work of God coming to light in chapter 37; the culmination of the teaching in that chapter in the supremacy of Christ typified in David, and God’s tabernacle spread over the people. Then chapters 38 and 39 give us a touch in regard to the breaking down of the last feature of opposition, as we might refer to it, before we come to chapter 40.

In chapter 39 God is seen allowing the enemy to oppose, to a certain extent, to bring out God’s holy jealousy for His name; as he says, in verse 25, “Therefore, thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name: and they shall bear their confusion, and all their unfaithfulness in which they have acted unfaithfully against me, when they shall dwell safely in their land, and none shall make them afraid; when I have brought them again from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations. And they shall know that I am Jehovah their God, in that I caused them to be led into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there. And I will not hide my face any more from them, for I shall have poured out my Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah.” This and other references in the chapter are striking allusions to the way God shows publicly His love for His people and regard for them, and His holy jealousy in regard of His name.

And then we come to chapter 40, which brings us to this great range of things that enters into the last eight chapters in Ezekiel, involving a good deal that tests us as to our apprehension of the truth. There are two things that run through the eight chapters, and that is the necessity for the man that is alluded to as standing by Ezekiel, and also for the Spirit. That is, the service of Christ mediatorially, and the service of the Spirit are important things to keep in mind in what we are about to consider in regard to the great scope of things here in the truth. In chapter 40 he is brought to the land of Israel and set upon a high mountain, and he sees “the building of a city, on the south,” and “a man whose appearance was like the appearance of brass, with a flax-cord in his hand, and a measuring-reed; and he stood in the gate,” all to intensify in our minds the thought of measurement, without which we shall be lost as to the truth; the divine standard of measure is a great matter. And a good deal is said as to the house; the first thing that is described is the house and the features of it. Then we come to chapter 43 and “the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east; ... and the earth was lit up with his glory.” Then it says that, “the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. And I heard one speaking unto me out of the house; and a man was standing by me.” I believe it is a great matter that we should get a sense of God coming into the position and a Man standing by us even now, not only in the service of God on the upward and heavenly side, but even now that we should have a sense of these great things as we go over the truth together, intensifying in our minds the thought of spirituality, which is so greatly needed in taking on and apprehending the truth rightly.

GJG The thought of the visions of God, we might say, in a certain sense is something beyond us, as the apostle says, “who is sufficient for these things?” and “our sufficiency is of God.” Would that come into it?

SMcC Yes, but the comfort is that we have the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. There is nothing strikes you more, when you read the last eight chapters of Ezekiel, than your finiteness in thinking, finiteness of apprehension; because, while what is before us is relative, yet there is an infinitude linked with it that is beyond us humanly speaking, and the necessity for a man standing by, typical of the service of Christ and the Holy Spirit would be apparent.

WJH In the beginning of the book, the man, or the likeness of a man, is seen on the throne above the expanse; but the same blessed Man is here too, is He not, in relation to divine interests and divine operations?

SMcC It is a great thing to see that. The principle of the man runs right through the book, and we have to be impressed with the greatness of Christ in heaven and how He is functioning as Man in heaven; and how the administration is proceeding from that viewpoint in the light of Ephesians, as the whole scope of the truth is in mind. There is nothing less in the Lord’s mind than the whole scope of the truth, and both He and the Spirit are operating, administering towards this end, that we should come into the whole scope of the truth.

JP Would that be particularly seen in Ephesians 3 in the apostle’s prayer, that the Christ might dwell by faith in the saints’ hearts, and the end to be reached, “that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”?

SMcC That would enter into these closing chapters of Ezekiel; and what you are struck with in Paul is the knowledge that he had. He is dealing with infinitude you might say, “the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge”; but yet he refers to his knowledge and his intelligence in the mystery, showing a man who has arrived at the truth. How has he arrived at it? As one who has made room for the service of Christ and the Spirit. I think that is the great thing to see in this matter, that we shall never arrive at the truth rightly except by the Spirit.

HJM So that David had the pattern by the word, but he also speaks of having it by the Spirit, does he not?

SMcC That is the important thing to see, especially in the way that the Spirit has been called attention to in recent times. The Lord has in mind an increase in spirituality with us, that as making room for the Spirit and His service to us, we might come into all the truth; not a specific phase of it, not a specific application of it, but the whole truth and nothing less than the whole truth. That is the divine standard of measure.

PB So it is said, “shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be confounded at their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern.” The house had to be shown to the house of Israel, had it not?

SMcC Showing that this is a practical matter. It has to be shown to the house of Israel, and therefore the need of our position, the “light of the house of Israel” - the people of God have understanding as to what is being shown. It is coming by this way, as it says in verse 5, “the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. And I heard one speaking unto me out of the house; and a man was standing by me.” The Spirit and Christ, in type, are operating together in regard to this matter of our coming at the truth from the standpoint of spirituality.

LF Does that require attentiveness on our part? I was thinking of the way in which it is presented to the prophet in chapter 40: 4, “behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears, and set thy heart upon all that I shall shew thee; for in order that it might be shown unto thee art thou brought hither. Declare to the house of Israel all that thou seest.”

SMcC How detailed it all is in the way that he alludes to it thus. The importance of spirituality! We will miss the whole point in regard to the dispensation if we are not spiritual, if spirituality is lost sight of.

AC Would you mind telling us what produces spirituality?

SMcC Making room for the Spirit. We all have the Spirit - or we should have. If there is anyone here that does not have the Spirit, they should see to it. The Father who is of heaven is ready to give to those that ask Him; but it is another matter to make room for the Spirit. Spirituality involves that we make room for the Spirit.

EAK Will the Spirit help us as to the matter of being confounded, which seems to be an essential condition of what is proposed? Does that involve the matter of self-judgment as using the Spirit?

SMcC So that as self-judgment is maintained as making room for the Spirit the truth begins to open out, as it says in verses 10 and 11, “Thou, son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be confounded at their iniquities; and let them measure the pattern. And if they be confounded at all that they have done, make known to them the form of the house, and its fashions, and its goings out, and its comings in, and all its forms, and all its statutes, yea, all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof; and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the statutes thereof, and do them.” Now all this detail is an interesting matter, because where is all this detail? We do not get it exactly laid down, as we do in Leviticus, verse by verse, principle by principle. What is to be understood, as we have been taught, is that room has to be made for spirituality in regard to the forms of the house, as Ezekiel presents it.

HJM And the self-judgment is more than self-judgment as to my own personal sins, is it not? It would be self-judgment in relation to the public history of the testimony. You think of men like Daniel and Nehemiah, and in our day men like Mr. Darby. As they saw the true pattern, how it bowed them before God, did it not?

SMcC As we go back to the days of the Acts, to the days of Peter and John and the twelve, and the days of Paul, we think of the pattern as it is set out, and the conditions of spirituality among the brethren; how they did things; they were intelligent in the way they did things. Some of the things they had no commandment for at all, but they did them as intelligent in what we might call the law of God. The book of the Acts gives us the pattern in that way.

CPP Would the first epistle to Timothy, in another, sense, give us the pattern, and the second epistle call for the spirit of self-judgment as desiring to return to it, or come into conformity with it?

SMcC Yes. “In order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God’s house,” 1 Timothy 3: 15. Paul is instructing Timothy as to behaviour in the house of God. The house of God is a wonderful realm. God is in it Spirit-wise, as was alluded to this morning, and He is here in this portion we have read; He has come in by way of the east.

PB This prophet would be typical of those who are controlled and led by the Spirit, so that he often speaks about being brought back, showing that there is nothing static in relation to what he has to give and show?

SMcC Yes, it is a great matter that we should go over the truth in regard to its scope and fulness and the foundations of it; all that has come in in these last days of revival in regard to the truth from J.N.D.’s time onwards to F.E.R.’s and J.B.S.’s, and especially in the last fifty years in the great distinctive ministry of which we are all the products.

RCR And is there enlargement by way of spiritual application in the operation in the house, apart from what we might be able to speak of as a specific verse of Scripture?

SMcC That is what Ezekiel would help us as to. The great thing is, as we have often noticed in Ezekiel, that the thing exists there and it is measured according to the divine standard of measure; but it tests spirituality. A lot of the things are testing to understand; but divine Persons are serving us, and not only serving us, but using influence and authority to help us in the matter; as we were seeing this morning, “causing” Ezekiel in chapter 37, “causing” in chapter 47, gently, as it were, if we could put the words together, using their authority to help us in view of the liberty of the realm.

FRG So what we arrive at would always be governed and bounded by the word of Scripture. Is that right?

SMcC Yes. We do not set aside the Scriptures; the Scriptures must be held in their distinctive place and position.

CPP Would the man in chapter 40 with the flax-cord give us a certain flexibility in the application of the truth? Does that fit in with what you are saying?

SMcC Yes, only that the use of the flax-cord requires more care than the use of the reed. The use of the reed applies to straight measurements, but the flax-cord has to do with measurements that the reed could not cover, and it calls for greater spirituality in the use of the flax-cord.

WJH Had you something in mind in referring to the east, which seems to be repeated over and over again in this section?

SMcC Yes, I was thinking that the whole section here is to fill our hearts with hope - not with despair. The rapture and the appearing are so near, we might say, specially the rapture to us, but we love the thought of the appearing. The Lord’s coming is so near. It is a great matter that that should fill us, so that we should be anxious to get all the truth, to allow divine Persons to show us the truth as They are showing it to us here in the forms and fashions of the house, its goings out and its comings in; not only the service of God, but the gospel. We have been helped as to that recently in the way we have been brought to the greatness of forgiveness based on repentance; the grace and spirit of the dispensation; the greatness of the gospel; what we were having at Melbourne as to the love of God entering into and lying behind the gospel. How important that is! If we take the love of God out of the gospel, we take, as it were, the branch from the trunk, and it will die.

HJM So that in the epistle to the Ephesians, the most glorious and great, in the way of the truth, we have the preaching of “the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ,” chapter 3: 8.

SMcC Yes. And in chapter 47 of this book the great thought of the river flowing out of the house, the place and domain of love. The love of God is entering into it as it flows, grace adapting itself to the need present; but all that is linked with the whole scope of the truth. We were tested recently, as to the very rudiments of the gospel in regard to repentance and forgiveness, and now, we are being tested as to the service of God and our knowledge of the truth in regard to it. All that is bound up with what we have here.

DJM Does 1 Timothy 2: 1 bear on it, “I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings be made for all men,” and then, “the mediator of God and men,” as linked with behaviour in God’s house?

SMcC Yes, it does; showing how intimately the glad tidings are bound up with this great matter of the pattern and the form of the house; the form of the house is a beautiful touch.

DJM The gospel goes out from the house, does it?

SMcC It does. The great error around us in regard to missionary work is that the house is left out, whereas, rightly speaking, the gospel goes out from the house. And then, as it says, “make known to them the form of the house, and its fashion, and its goings out, and its comings in, and all its forms, and all its statutes, yea, all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof,” Think of the fulness of it! That is where we run into the difficulties. It is in the fulness of the truth where spirituality is needed in connection with the working out of the truth of the house of God.

CEJ Is spirituality necessary if we are to know all the forms, or as it says, “that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the statutes thereof, and do them.” We are tested as to the application of divine principles, are we not?

SMcC We are, because there is a good deal said in Ezekiel that is not said in the books of Moses, and we are to understand just what is in mind in that. It is especially stressing the spiritual side of things, the work of God in the saints subjectively, the greatness of that and how it can be measured. John is stressing that in his epistle, the work of God in the saints and how it can be measured and taken account of. “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren,” 1 John 3: 14. That is the divine standard of measure, as it were, being applied.

AWG Is that why in Timothy the reference is to the Spirit speaking expressly? Should we have ears attuned to hear what the Spirit is saying?

SMcC It is an important thing for us to discern the Spirit’s voice in the ministry. Think of all the wealth and distinctiveness of it over the last fifty years! The more we go over it, the more we are amazed at the great wealth that there is in it.

JGG So, important as spiritual instincts are, this conscious knowledge of spiritual matters is much more important.

SMcC Oh yes, this is not instinct; we are not alluding to instinct. Spirituality is not instinct. Instincts are linked with the new birth. The new birth lays the basis for spirituality. “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit,” it partakes of that character, but for spirituality we need the Spirit, making room for the Spirit.

AC It says that when the Spirit came down at Pentecost, He rested on them and they were all filled with the Spirit and then they spake as the Spirit gave them utterance. That was at the beginning of the dispensation. Are you calling attention to the close, that the Spirit should have His right and proper place with each one of us?

SMcC That is an important thing. The pattern in the Acts would impress our minds distinctly with the great use made of the Spirit, and it is important that any of us who serve, whether in the preaching or otherwise, should make room for the Spirit. How important it is in a meeting like this, that room should be made for the Spirit to come in in regard to the truth. It is the hallmark of all proper and right ministry according to God.

EAK Does not that involve the recognition of the Spirit objectively (you were speaking of the Acts), a matter in which we have been helped more recently?

SMcC Yes, it is a great matter to see the place that the Spirit has in relation to the ministry. That was why I alluded, in a simple way, this morning, to the necessity for care in regard to what we say as to the ministry; not that the ministry is infallible, it is not. The Word of God (the Scriptures) is infallible, it is inspired. Ministry is not inspired, neither is it infallible; but it is authoritative from two standpoints, in that the servant has a commission, and also that the Spirit is in the matter, and therefore the need of care lest we should impute to a servant bias in ministering, when the Spirit’s voice may be in the matter. What care is needed!

PB It says in chapter 43, “and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the statutes thereof, and do them.” I wondered if what Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3:1-3, would be in line, “Ye are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read of all men, being manifested to be Christ’s epistle ministered by us, written, not with ink, but the Spirit of the living God; not on stone tables, but on fleshy tables of the heart.” This writing that has to be written is really substantially in the hearts and spirits of men, is it not?

SMcC Yes, exactly; the hearts and spirits of the saints. So how important it is that the ministry should not just be carried in our minds, but that we should be practical and living exponents of it. I think that is what the Lord is aiming at at the present time, that we should be substantially formed in the ministry, that we are not dealing with it as we would deal with literature in the world. It is a question of the truth of God, that which the Spirit is in, searching us morally, helping us in self-judgment, that, as we make room for the Spirit, we might become exponents of the truth.

GJD Is that why the idea of the mountain is introduced, “This is the law of the house: Upon the top of the mountain”? I was thinking of the Revelation, where John wrote, “And he carried me away in the Spirit, and set me on a great and high mountain, and shewed me the holy city,” Revelation 21: 10.

SMcC Very good; showing how elevated our thoughts are to be in regard to the law of the house. That is, spirituality is needed for this too. It is on the top of the mountain. “Upon the top of the mountain all its border round about is most holy.” It is an elevated position, that is, as we might say in our way of speaking, a heavenly view.

GJD Would that help us in regard of matters that come up amongst us, that we think on them from this level?

SMcC So that we do not resort and sink to carnal and fleshly levels in our operations in the working out of the truth. The ministry of Ezekiel would help us to reject thoroughly all that is linked with the operations of the mind of man in relation to the truth, and we all have to face that. Every one of us knows just what it is for the mind of man to intrude in the holy things of God and bring about disaster.

JHH Whereas when we do have one who is a distinct exponent of the truth amongst us, we value even his opinion. I was thinking of 1 Corinthians 7: 25, “I have no commandment of the Lord; but I give my opinion, as having received mercy of the Lord to be faithful.” That is to be thought of too, is it not?

SMcC Very good; showing how Paul distinguishes between certain things he says, but how he has confidence that the saints would recognise the weight that his opinion would carry. And then we have this great thought of the altar, verses 13 - 17, just a brief allusion to the greatness of what enters into the altar, because it is going to come into chapter 47. Here it is linked with the law of the house and the forms and the pattern, all that is shown. We are to be impressed with this view of Christ, and what is set out in the manhood of Christ in this relation, so that we might take on what is linked with the features suggested in it.

CPP Do the various details in these verses again remind us of the need of the help of the Spirit to understand what really did come out in the manhood of the Lord Jesus in what the altar speaks of?

SMcC Our minds are to be affected by this allusion to the hearth of God; how God is near to us in this great matter, “the hearth of God.” We have the glory coming in in the opening of the chapter, the whole earth lit up with His glory; but here was have allusions to the hearth of God, doubly referred to, the meanings are “Mount of God” and “lion of God”. Now we want to see where strength and dignity is to shine in the working out of things in this realm. It is going to work out this way, on the basis of sacrificing love, the altar, preparedness to sacrifice, to suffer. That is what is in mind, the way of suffering love.

FRG Paul could speak of himself as being willing to spend and be utterly spent for the sake of the brethren.

SMcC Paul is a great illustration of this in the epistle to the Corinthians. There were those who were reigning in Corinth, claiming to have the power, whilst Paul was regarded as the offscouring of the world.

WJB You were speaking on Wednesday evening in Newcastle about suffering and saying that the Lord sometimes comes in in relief, and sometimes He does not.

SMcC It is an important thing to see that. It does not mean that we are going to be delivered from every test. We may have to go through things to the extreme, the martyrs had to do so, they were not delivered; we have to face that side of things, but there is power. Think of the power and the strength that was with the martyrs! As you read the history of the martyrs and the marvellous way they died for the truth, you see the strength, as the result of the work of God in them!

That is what this altar suggests in the “lion of God” and the “Mount of God.” God is linked with that matter.

EAK James was slain by the sword, but Peter was delivered; and it says, “they were the days of unleavened bread,” Acts 12: 3.

SMcC That shows how there may be deliverance and there may not be deliverance.

WJB Do you think that some questions may not be resolved until the judgment seat?

SMcC Well, I am sure that as to many things that happen in our lives, which are perhaps inexplicable to us now, we shall get an answer then; as to calamities and other things that have come into our lives.

HJM What does the “hearth of God” really mean?

SMcC Well, we know what a hearth suggests. I think we are so near to God in the last eight chapters of Ezekiel. He is so near in these matters, with and amongst His people. These chapters contemplate the saints at home in this great realm of love; the chambers and the cells all suggesting the great idea of love and the saints dwelling together with God.

RHG So is it in mind that all the detail that is seen in the house is in full accord with the glory that is coming in?

SMcC Yes, and in full accord with the death of Christ; full accord with the hearth of God. You will remember how Paul insists on that as he opens the first epistle to the Corinthians. He refers so much to suffering in that letter, but he refers to Christ, the wisdom of God and the power of God. It is striking how, in Ezekiel, the thought of power and strength is not only linked with the pillars, as we have it in the temple, Jachin and Boaz, but it is linked with the altar.

GJD Would the apostle have us to see all these matters that relate to our business here, and see the saints in the light of the altar? This could be seen easily, could it not, in this position?

SMcC We are to be imbued with the spirit and grace of Him who gave His all for the saints. The altar would bring that into our minds; how He suffered to establish the will of God; how He surrendered in relation to things in His path, that the will of God might be supreme and that the saints might be secured.

LF There seems to be a fresh standard of measurement in regard to this altar. I was wondering, following what you have just said, whether that has in view the expansion of our thoughts as to what is here? The cubit is a cubit and a hand breadth.

SMcC Very good. That is just what is in mind, the expansion of our thoughts. That is what spirituality means, that our thoughts are being continually expanded in relation to the truth; and Ezekiel is especially helping us as to that. When you come to the river, the further it goes, the deeper it is. With some of us, you know, it, may be that the further we go the shallower we get, the less we have; but in Ezekiel, the further the river goes, the deeper it goes and the wider it becomes.

GJD Is this portion here what the apostle means when he says, “holding the truth in love,” Ephesians 4: 15.

SMcC Yes, that is stressed. As we look at Ezekiel we are impressed with that thought, that the truth is to be held in love. That is what these chapters would remind us of. And so we come to this next chapter where we get mutuality so much stressed. In chapter 45: 16, 17 it says, “All the people of the land shall be held to this heave-offering for the prince in Israel. And it shall be the prince’s part to supply the burnt-offerings, and the oblation, and the drink-offering, at the feasts.” Now this should help us in the working out of things, that mutuality among the brethren never militates against personality, as suggested in the prince. Sometimes we speak of mutuality as if it were something that shuts out personality, shuts out leadership; but it never does. Mutuality makes way for leadership among the brethren.

GA Would it be right to ask if those features of personality and mutuality are expanded in Deuteronomy 33, and culminate in the state of blessing: “Happy art thou, Israel!” and so on, as though all the features of personality and mutuality are in Moses’ mind, by the Spirit?

SMcC Very good. I think that section is very illuminating in regard to what we are saying; that mutuality in relation to the work of God and our relation together in the family of God never militate against leadership or personality. In that closing section Moses stands out in a way that he has never stood out before.

WJB So that mutuality is not democracy.

SMcC An important thing to bear in mind. Sometimes under the plea of concern for mutuality, democracy may be advanced, and democracy is not according to God. I know we have democracy in America, but democracy is not the right kind of rule according to God, and democracy in the assembly is not in accord with the truth.

JHH It might lead on to every man doing that which was right in his own eyes.

SMcC Well, exactly. Instead of having confidence in one another! Mutuality makes for confidence in one another, and makes way for spiritual leadership amongst the saints. How important that is in regard to our readings. How to make room for mutuality and leadership is a great matter, because if everybody is saying something and nobody is saying anything distinctive, we do not get very far; but where you get mutuality supplying and entering into and contributing to what there is in the gathering, it makes room for leadership, as in the prince here.

PB I suppose the prince was of the tribe of Judah, and represents Christ. Is not personality connected with what represents Christ in each one of us?

SMcC That is just the point. Personality has to do with the reflection of Christ, because your impression of Christ is not mine, and my impression is not yours. We have all got a distinctive impression of Christ; we do not need to imitate one another in that regard. What the last eight chapters of Ezekiel would bring out is the graded character of the work of God. The work of God is not always the same in every one of us. I mean, if Paul were here, how delighted we would be to make room for him and to listen to him.

JD Is that seen at Antioch where “as they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul,” Acts 13: 2?

SMcC What mutuality among the brethren! The fasting; the precluding of any personal preference in my mind. I might say, “I would like so and so to take the lead.” But oh, the need of fasting in this matter, that natural proclivities might be shut out, so that room might be made for the sovereignty of the Spirit in the matter of distribution!

WJH “I John, your brother,” and “I myself, Paul.”

SMcC Very good. What personalities they were! what princes they were! we might say what leadership in both men, but yet how they linked on with the brethren! It is a great thing for us to keep in mind that the prince can only go a certain distance here. I am alluding, of course, to ourselves, I am not alluding to Christ, (bearing in mind that He is a divine Person and can go where no one else can go; as to creatures, I mean, no creature could go where He, as a divine Person, could go.) But thinking of the prince representing the spirit of Christ amongst the saints, the prince goes a certain distance, but that is all. That is, gift or leadership on administrative lines goes a certain distance, but the priest is morally greater; he goes further, and the sons go further, they go right into eternity.

FRG Does Acts 15 illustrate it, in the bringing forward of great personalities, and yet it speaks of “it seemed good to us,” of “the whole assembly” and so on. There was what was mutual there, as well as what was outstanding in leadership.

SMcC This side of things where the offerings are mentioned so much here, verses 9 - 12, is important, and we need to take it to heart. I suppose it would allude in type to the hierarchy around and the way the flock is exploited. But everyone of us has to take it home, as to what there may be in our hearts. “Put away violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice; take off your exactions from my people, saith the Lord Jehovah. Ye shall have just balances, and a just ephah, and a just bath.” Notice how, all the way through, justice is being stressed in regard to measurement; the divine measurement. And then in verse 13, “This is the heave-offering which ye shall offer: the sixth part of an ephah out of a homer of wheat, and ye shall give the sixth part of an ephah out of a homer of barley; and the set portion of oil, by the bath of oil, the tenth part of a bath out of a cor, which is a homer of ten baths, for ten baths are a homer; and one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred,” - notice that - “from the well-watered pastures of Israel - for an oblation.” The standard of measure is intensified in regard to these conditions of mutuality impressed upon our minds here, that all the people are to be held to this heave-offering for the prince.

RLP Why did you stress one lamb out of two hundred?

SMcC There is something in that. Why should it say, “one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred”?

It shows how measurement enters into this great matter of what is to be for the prince.

HJM Would it involve that there is plenty on hand in all these matters, but the matter of measurement and selection comes in? We are to be selective in our approach, are we?

SMcC That is it exactly. Some brother might say he has two hundred thoughts in the reading meeting - far too many; Better to have one out of two hundred, that is the point, you see. You do not throw everything on the table. You do not bring out everything that you have. You have a lot more than what comes out. That is the point in spirituality, in making room for the Spirit, you have a lot more than comes out, it is one lamb out of two hundred.

SEE So that the point would be, would it, that the saints should have the best at the time; and in turn, that God thus should have the best from them?

SMcC Yes, because it is what is for God that would be in mind here. The service of God is ultimately in mind, and all the readings and all the meetings should have that in mind. As it says here, “one lamb out of the flock, out of two hundred, from the well-watered pastures of Israel - for an oblation,” - not the valley of dry bones now, it is “the well-watered pastures of Israel.” The brethren are feeding on the best. They are going in for the best. The young people want to go in for the best, not the inferior. Go in for the best! God has kept the best to the last and we want to go in for it.

JP I think you said a little earlier that the priest goes further than the prince, but I notice it is the prince here who is to supply the offerings. What do we understand by that?

SMcC Showing the great place that the princely side has in the matter of supporting the service of God. As we were saying, gift and the working out of gift in personality and ability, in influence and administratively, and the like (as the prince would suggest), would have primarily in mind the service of God; the supplying of wealth for the service of God.

SEE It would mean he would need to acquire spiritual substance, would it?

SMcC Yes. “The well-watered pastures of Israel.” I think that is a beautiful touch coming in here, amid all that God is saying, as if the thing is present. Someone may say, “Well, in our locality things are pretty dry.” But this is what we should have in mind, as we sit down together; “the well-watered pastures of Israel”; and surely they are well-watered because the Spirit of God is standing related to them!

GJG Would there be a further suggestion of spiritual reserves in that? You have spoken of one lamb out of two hundred, but the well-watered pastures are unending spiritual reserves to bring things forward amongst the saints?

SMcC That is it. There is no aridness. If there is spiritual aridity in the gatherings, the question comes up as to whether the Spirit is being made room for. The sisters enter into that. The sisters are, as it were, furnishing part of “the well-watered pastures.”

LGS And are we to note that it is a heave-offering?

SMcC That is an important thing to notice; it is love working vertically. The wave-offering is love working on a horizontal plane; but this is working out what we were considering in the altar, the mountain of God, the strength of God; the love of God is introduced into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, so that there is power, as it were, to heave; it is the movements of love upward amongst the saints.

GHW Does it indicate a fulness and wealth and rising up of affection?

SMcC Exactly.

WHF Referring to the well-watered pastures of Israel. Paul refers in the introduction in the first epistle to the Corinthians, not only to those at Corinth, but “in every place.” Might we not expect the Spirit of God to help us to know more of the well-watered pastures of all the saints upon earth?

SMcC The whole assembly, those who are walking in the truth in regard to the well-watered pastures. It is a great thing to see what supplies there are to feed us; and the ‘one out of two hundred’ should encourage the younger brothers and sisters that in this matter of the heave-offering, it is not two hundred that are being looked for, but, one out of two hundred. Sometimes you hear young brothers refer to others and say, “Why, they have got so many spiritual thoughts and I seem to have so little.” Well, this is an encouragement. It is one out of two hundred, but it is part of the wealth of the well-watered pastures of Israel that are contributing to the service of God.

FW And what is the last part of verse 17 of chapter 45 in regard to the prince?

SMcC “And it shall be the prince’s part to supply the burnt-offerings, and the oblation, and the drink-offering, at the feasts, and at the new moons, and on the sabbaths, in all the solemnities of the house of Israel: it is he that shall prepare the sin-offering, and the oblation, and the burnt-offering, and the peace-offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel.” I suppose it is to show how leadership enters into this matter of the sustaining of the festive occasions, the new moons and all the solemnities of the house of Israel in regard to the taking care of matters as to cleansing.

FW “And the peace-offerings, to make atonement for the house of Israel.” Is the prince something special in regard to the whole of Israel?

SMcC Well, exactly; so that in verse 18 it is to be noted this in unique to Ezekiel. “Thus saith the Lord Jehovah; In the first month, on the first of the month,

thou shalt take a young bullock, without blemish, and thou shalt purge the sanctuary.” Of old, in the books of Moses, the cleansing of the sanctuary was linked with the seventh month, the final month of the festive year; but in Ezekiel we begin with that, we begin with finished matters on that line. “The first month, on the first of the month,” matters are cleared in regard to the sanctuary.

RMY Would you say something in that connection as to the matter of Saturday night care meetings, which have been taken on amongst us; and perhaps a word as to the most suitable Saturday?

SMcC I do not know that too much could be said, only that we might read chapter 40: 6 - 8: “And he came to the gate which looked toward the east, and went up its steps; and he measured the threshold of the gate, one reed broad; and the other threshold one reed broad. And each chamber was one reed long and one reed broad; and between the chambers were five cubits; and the threshold of the gate, beside the porch of the gate within, was one reed. And he measured the porch of the gate within, one reed.” That is, as you draw near to the house, all that is linked with the administrative position is marked by uniformity; one reed, one reed, one reed. And I think that is the important thing that governs us in regard to the care meeting; uniformity, we are all doing to same thing, in that light.

EAK Do you consider, in saying that, that a universal Saturday amongst the saints, irrespective of countries, is desirable?

SMcC The general principle of uniformity should be in our minds. Of course, it would be a happy thing if it were the same Saturday universally, but the question would be as to whether that would be possible.

EAK Well, that is in one’s mind, because we have had to recognise that the universal thought in relation to the hymn book has had to be a little modified in the limited conditions in which we are, and I wondered, perhaps, whether the same feature did not enter into this matter.

SMcC Yes, it might not be possible for all to have it on the same night.

GWB You have drawn attention elsewhere to the desirability of clearing the month.

SMcC Yes, when I said it might not be possible to have it on the same night, I meant the same Saturday night. I was not meaning any night in the week.

FW You mean, do you, that we should all do the same thing in principle; but in various places there might be slight differences in detail.

SMcC The thing is to get the principle of uniformity among the brethren, and as you draw near to the house, the gates, the porch, you are affected by this one measurement, one reed, all the way round.

Chapter 47 is to impress us with this great matter of the flow of the river, and meeting current need. As we find, it is a double river. That is, it is something that has to be spiritually understood; the need for spirituality is again impressed. And there are many things that are linked with it that are important, but the first matter is, “he brought me back to the door of the house; and behold, waters issued out from under the threshold of the house eastward: for the front of the house was eastward. And the waters came down from under, from the right side of the house, south of the altar.” We are to be reminded of the source of the waters here, linked with this great realm that lies in the work of God in the saints.

GA Could we have a word as to the relationship of this Scripture to what appears in the first portion of Revelation 22: 1, 2?

SMcC I suppose it links on in the teaching with that. The administration of grace marks the heavenly city, and we are to understand its spiritual bearing upon us now; this fluid state of things, going on and deepening, not decreasing, but increasing; not getting shallower but getting deeper all the time, and Divine Persons serving us as They do in the ministry. The new covenant is to help Israel and Judah in their relations with God, but Divine Persons in Their service in 2 Corinthians 3 are helping us now. They are helping us from glory to glory, further and further into the enjoyment of the truth. The whole truth is in mind, not only that we should be in it with our feet, but that we should be in it altogether, waters risen, waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed through.

GJG In the thought of the river where there are waters to swim in, is there a suggestion of our ability to move in such a sphere, to be at home in it?

SMcC That is it. It would be the exercise of life. We are not, as it were, drowned in it. It has often been said as to Ephesians 3, while infinitude is in mind in our being filled to all the fulness of God, we are not lost in it, but we are held in it; that is, it is waters to swim in, a river that could not be passed through; it is infinitude, but yet we are in it intelligently in the activity of life.

DJM It says, “to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge.”

SMcC That reminds us of infinitude, but yet we know it.

JHH Would 2 Corinthians 3 be something like what you have in your mind, “according to the same image from glory to glory”? Is that how we get into this?

SMcC That is it. “The same image.” We are not to be thinking differently and speaking differently. In a great city like this, where there are so many meetings - thirty meetings, I believe - how important it is that there should not be sectionalism, that the brethren should all be thinking the same thing and speaking the same thing, and we will if we are brought into this flow. It says, “When the man went forth eastward, a line was in his hand.” He is not giving up the line, he is not giving up the divine standard of measurement. It says, “he measured a thousand cubits, and he caused me to pass through the waters.” Then, “And he measured a thousand cubits, and caused me to pass through the waters.” That is what the Lord has been doing these times, just causing us to come in, you see; and the saints cannot hold themselves back from this viewpoint, the Lord and the Spirit using Their authority to help us from glory to glory.

ENJ Would you say that we have come to a great healing time - this chapter suggesting much healing - and that we need to be careful lest we be found like the marshes and the pools, unaffected by this wonderful ministry.

SMcC A very important thing. The marshes and the pool, I suppose would represent the principle of apostasy - terrible thing - stagnant conditions. But as we stand related to this river, and as we are brought back over the scope of the truth, we see so much that we never saw before. That has just been the very matter in regard to all we have been going through recently; the Lord has been helping us to see the truth, as it were, from another point of view.

ENJ Thinking of the healing, the Lord has helped us in cases of breakdown, so that the matter of healing is more rapid now, under the Spirit’s teaching.

SMcC And so it says after the words “shall be healed.” “And it shall come to pass that every living thing which moveth, whithersoever the double river shall come, shall live.” That is, this great current or flow of healing grace and love has a double action; it is not only what is towards the saints, but it is what is towards God. That is the double action of it.

NBS In chapter 41 there is an enlarging which event round about the house increasing upward. Here, there is an enlarging outward. Does that come first, the enlarging God-ward, and then the enlarging outward?

SMcC Yes. The importance of enlargement; Ezekiel is stressing that side, enlargement on the line of love. The heave-offering in the next chapter is wonderful. Not the testing, rugged, uneven lines of the inheritance in Joshua; it is not that side in Ezekiel, it is a matter of straight lines. The heave-offering in the next chapter, linked with the tribes, and the straight lines of the inheritance; meaning that the brethren are now moving on together in this matter of love, the healing service of the river having its place with us, so that we have these things that are healed, and then, as it says, “the fruit thereof shall be for food, and the leaf thereof for medicine,” the medicinal qualities that enter into this stream of administration, for that is what it is. Just pending the rapture, as it were, the Lord is intensifying it with us.

CEJ Is a living condition of things in mind here, that everything should be living?

SMcC Everything is living, as this double river comes in touch with it. Whether we think of the double river in relation to the Lord, and His activities on high, and the Spirit down below; or whether we think of it as the Spirit introducing into our hearts the love of God; or whether we think of it as ourselves loving God as helped by the Spirit; whatever form the double river may take, we can see that life is in mind; life in our relations with God, life in our relations with one another.

FW Would you please say a word as to verses 6 and 7: “And he said unto me, Son of man, hast thou seen this? And he led me, and brought me back to the bank of the river. When I returned, behold, on the bank of the river were very many trees on the one side and on the other.”

SMcC It is an important thing to see that. Recently,

we were talking to someone who was out of fellowship and thought he was getting help, and he implied that the brethren were coming back; whereas the point was, the Lord was bringing him back. That is what we all want to get help on. We may want the brethren to be brought back, but the Lord is, maybe, bringing me back, to show me the truth in the fulness of its bearing, especially in this matter of life.

FW It was Ezekiel who was brought back. Is there a suggestion that we have not taken, in detail, all the ministry of the past fifty years, and there is wisdom in looking back and seeing what it is that the Lord has really been saying in the last fifty years?

SMcC That is the whole point, going back over the truth. One can speak for oneself, that one is amazed, in going over the reprinted ministry of beloved Mr. Taylor at the amount that we have missed, the amount that we have never noticed. It throws into relief how the Spirit of God was in that ministry, that it yields so much as you go back over it, even extending back through the years.

FW And you would value it as much now as ever?

SMcC Certainly. I think we want to value to the full what has come to us through the leadership in the ministry in our time.

PB So it says, “and everything shall live whither the river cometh.” Is that important?

SMcC “Shall live.” The important thing is to see that Divine Persons are in the matter and the saints are thriving, they are coming into life as under the influence of this great administrative flow, as we might refer to it.

VTS Is God committed to that, in that way? It says, “Be not deceived: God is not mocked; ... but he that sows to the Spirit, from the Spirit shall reap eternal life,” Galatians 6: 7 - 8.

SMcC Yes, showing the need of making room for the Spirit.

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