THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD (4)
THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE SON OF GOD (4)
1 John 5:10-13; John 5:20-25; John 17:1-3; John 17:25,26; John 20:17,18
SMcC I think we should keep in mind this afternoon the bearing of the knowledge of the Son of God as apprehended and enjoyed by us, on the service of God, the assembly being the great vessel of that service. What is to be noted in these passages in John’s writings is that the thought of life is linked with the Son of God in a great and extensive way; and it is important that we should see the bearing of eternal life upon the service of God because it is basic to it. We are reminded in the chapter we have read from 1 John of the dignified setting of life. Part has been read to convey some impression to us of the richness and dignity of the subject in the positioning of the life in the Son. Then the matter too of the witness in ourselves, “He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself,” 1 John 5: 10, is an important thing because it brings us to what we have, what there is in us, which is a great matter in regard to the service of God. It is not a question of academic terms. John’s ministry would help us as to something that we have arrived at in ourselves in regard to the truth, where we are in the truth and what we have arrived at as bearing on the service of God, life being essential to the service of God. Then the thought of quickening, the side of divine sovereignty in John 5, which gives us an extensive view of the great range of divine operations, having in mind that we should be quickened in view our part in life, the service of God being in mind. In John 17 the last verse bears on the assembly as the vessel of the service of God. The Lord Jesus says, “that the love with which thou has loved me may be in them and I in them,” John 17: 26. What would be next the Lord’s heart would be what we have in Hebrews 2 in relation to that statement in John 17, “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises,” (or hymn thee), Hebrews 2: 12. Then the final reference in John 20 is to our association with the Son of God in these marvellous relationships which are implied in His message through Mary to His brethren, “my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God,” John 20: 17.
PRP Would it be right to link Romans 8, the Spirit witnessing with our spirits, with this thought of the witness in ourselves?
SMcC It would. The witness in that way is linked with the Spirit, “He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself,” showing the great advantage of having the Spirit. As having the Spirit we have a definite means within ourselves of arriving at where we are in relation to the truth, so that the truth is not just in terms as they have it around us in creed or in ceremony.
GJG You spoke of the thought of the service of God linked on with eternal life and the Spirit’s workings within us and the power within us. Do we not experience when together in the service of God that we are carried along in the stream, and should we take account of that in this connection?
SMcC Yes, I should think so. It involves a living state of things, and we have often noticed that sometimes we are carried beyond our measure in the service of God, no doubt, because of that current which underlies and enters into the service of God in the thought of life and eternal life.
RMY Is there a difference between life and eternal life in this connection?
SMcC Eternal life and life are sometimes alluded to in a synonymous way in different settings. “And this life is in his Son,” 1 John 5: 11 would be an allusion to eternal life, the great objective realm and environment in which the life is seen, “that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son.” It is not exactly what is in us, but “this life is in his Son,” - the positioning of the life, eternal life viewed in that objective way. In John 5 life is viewed as affecting us subjectively; the subject of life in relation to quickening is before us and its subjective effect upon us. We are made to live.
HJM In relation to being carried in the living current, would Ezekiel 47 bear on that; the waters going out from under the house, the extent of them, the increasing depth of them and growth in relation to them?
SMcC That is a good illustration of it in Ezekiel 47. I think we should know something about this in the service of God, the bearing of life upon it, so that we are spiritually fluid in the service of God. It would help us and save us from rigidity and running the service of God into definite moulds. If some reference is made, it may be by a young brother, to something that is out of keeping, as some of us may think, with the light that governs the position at the moment, we are not upset by it, but we flow into the matter, in the power of life, and the thing is carried along in a fluid way.
HJM When Ezekiel returned along the river he found a lot that was not there at his first movement. Would that bear on it too?
SMcC Exactly. Mr. Taylor was once asked, in regard to the covenant, why he referred to it now in the way in which he did, in relation to what he had said about it before. He referred them to that chapter in Ezekiel, where Ezekiel saw some things when he returned that he had never seen before, showing that Christianity involves life, and it is especially important to see it in the service of God that we must have a living state of things.
JD And John writes that they may know. Is the emphasis there, “that ye may know that ye have eternal life”? Is that not necessary in the service of God?
SMcC Well it is, “that ye may know.” It is a question of knowledge. And we have the means of arriving at where we are in the truth. Sometimes we allow our minds to get into a sea of mixed thoughts and we do not know where we are. But we want to make room for the Spirit because we have a means of arriving at where we are in the truth as having the Spirit, having the witness in ourselves, not in somebody else.
JD Would the word in John 4: 14 help? “In him a fountain of water, springing up into eternal life.”
SMcC Showing how eternal life is basic to the service of God in John 4. All around us we see how life is missing.
EBMcC It says, “And it is the Spirit that bears witness, for the Spirit is the truth,” 1 John 5: 6. Further down it says that God bears witness. Is the Spirit, God there? Is that the thought?
SMcC “If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater. For this is the witness of God which he has witnessed concerning His Son.” Is that the verse you are alluding to?
EBMcC Yes. Is that the Spirit there, because it says up above that it is the Spirit that bears witness to the truth?
SMcC Yes. The Spirit is God. We always have to keep that in mind, just in the same way that John reminds us that the Lord Jesus is God.
EBMcC The truth is all that has come out, is it not, from the days of 130 years ago by the Spirit, and we are to be familiar with it and know it? Is that right? the right hand of God; commensurate with that down here the Spirit is the truth subjectively in the saints. The emphasis on the water in this section - the water and the blood - is important because we cannot have the service of God rightly without a purified state of soul, and that is all involved in the teaching here; the great importance of it must be laid hold of if we are to enjoy life and have our part in the service of God; as Hezekiah says, “The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day,” Isaiah 38: 19. If we are to have part in that, it necessitates the maintenance of the water side with us, a purified state of soul.
PB Is the thought of the Son quickening whomsoever He will a further thought than just receiving of the Spirit?
SMcC Yes, we have to view the truth in that way in its parts to get the full value and bearing of any feature of the truth at a given time. The quickening, as we have it in John 5 and Ephesians 2 in relation to the saints of the assembly will not be known by any other family in the same way as it is known by the assembly. It is linked with the presence of the Spirit in us.
GHW-n Is this the aspect of the service of God towards us, while in John 20 it is God-ward?
SMcC Well, we are thinking of what underlies the service of God and our part in it. Eternal life is essential to the service of God. I am thinking of serving God in the assembly; eternal life is essential and basic to it.
SEE Would anything outside of that be of the character of dead works referred to in Hebrews 9? The apostle refers to their conscience being purified “from dead works to worship the living God,” Hebrews 9: 14.
SMcC Yes, that would bear upon it. The service of God is a good deal before us in the epistle to the Hebrews, and it is a great matter that the service of God should be characterised by what is living. There is something so attractive about life. It is such a contrast to dead theology, dead creed and ceremony. So that this thought of eternal life being basic to the service of God, is most important.
SEE Would it not impart a spontaneity and a buoyancy in the service which is sometimes lacking with us?
SMcC That is what one is thinking of. If we are relying just on mere outlines of the truth and mere terms in themselves without the enjoyment of life, as we have it here, we shall lack in this buoyancy. It is not that we set aside the light that governs the position; it is important that the service of God is regulated by light (which governs the position) whatever feature of it we are engaged with.
Rem The knowledge of the Son of God is so important - “He that has the Son has life,” 1 John 5: 12.
SMcC Yes. The knowledge of the Son of God - the liberty of Christianity is bound up with it. One of the great features in the service of God is the matter of liberty. You will remember how it is stressed in 2 Corinthians 3. Even the authority of the Lord Jesus and the authority of the Spirit are brought to bear upon the matter of liberty in regard to the service of God.
WCB Does the expression, “He that has the Son has life,” mean that the Son is held in our affections in that way?
SMcC Yes. In Colossians He is said to be our life. A remarkable thing that; that the Person of Christ is so laid hold of in the assembly that He becomes our very life.
HJM Would 1 Chronicles 25 bear on what you have in mind - the matter of harps and lutes and cymbals? While the chapter is full of the thought of instruction, the thought of affection and sonship and the spirit of fathers, all enter into it.
SMcC The whole of that section is suggestive in regard to the service of God. The great line of demarcation in regard to what is real and what is false around us lies in regard to this matter of life, and it of just a matter of doctrine. It involves doctrine, but “He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself,” is more than doctrine.
VTS I was thinking of that man in the early chapter of Acts that Peter helped. He was walking and leaping and praising God. He had not been converted very long, had he?
SMcC No. He is a remarkable man. He understands the principle of Christianity; that life, as it is understood rightly in Christianity in relation to our links with Christ, is enjoyed on the principle of nearness - contact with the Person not on the principle of distance, so that he held Peter and John.
JNG When you refer to this verse as to witness in himself, is it a question of our enjoyment really of the knowledge of the Son of God?
SMcC Yes. It is helpful for the younger ones to understand this verse, because we all know - we might as well be simple about it - that sometimes we just wonder where we are in regard to the truth, what we have arrived at and where we stand. It is important that we should revert to this great fact that we have the Spirit. We have a determinate means of arriving at where we are in the truth, not through a keen mental faculty in reading a book of the ministry, but where we are in the truth through the help of the Spirit.
SEE Would having the Son, and thus having life, mean that we hold it objectively but would having the witness in ourselves mean that we have it substantially? It refers to the life being in Him, “and this life is in his Son.”
SMcC Well, the witness in ourselves stresses the inward subjective side. When it says in verse 12, “He that has the Son has life,” it is not just light. That is substantial. “And this is the witness, that God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son. He that has the Son has life,” is written to impress us with the richness of the subject, the positioning of it where nothing here can interfere with it. It is beyond the reach of things here, beyond the power of evil here. “God has given to us eternal life; and this life is in his Son.” That is the heavenly exalted position of it. It is not exactly said to be in heaven, although it is a heavenly reference. It is said to be “in his Son”; in that Person.
GCL Would a clear line of demarcation be seen in verse 19? “We know that we are of God, and the whole world lies in the wicked one.” Then there is a substantial stabilising verse following, “And we know that the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding that we should know him that is true; and we are in Him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
SMcC All that impresses you in regard to this matter of where we are in the truth, because there is so much around that is spurious, so much too that the enemy would use to entrench upon our joy and our happiness in relation to our links with divine Persons. But John’s ministry would help us basically as to where we are. This is another touch, “the Son of God has come, and has given us an understanding.” It is a question of an understanding here; “that we should know him that is true; and we are in him that is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.”
AJW “These things have I written to you that ye may know that ye have eternal life,” chapter 5: 13. When we come to the point of knowing it, it takes us beyond what is written.
SMcC Yes, it means, as the note says, “conscious knowledge”; not only what is in the Scriptures, but that we should have the conscious knowledge of the thing. They say in certain systems of teaching around us that if you have any difficulty, to take the passage of the Scripture and stand on it, but that does not give you the thing in itself, for we have to understand the place of the Spirit in relation to our enjoyment of the truth.
JD Would you say a word as to believing; “He that believes”?
SMcC It is a matter of faith. John is stressing faith. He says, “Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” verse 5. He begins first of all by saying, “Every one that believes that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God,” verse 1. That is one side, linked with the moral side, but when we come to verse 5 and the victory over the world, it is a question of the spiritual side; “he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God.” And all these elements that are brought forward in the water and the blood, and then the reference to the witness of the Spirit, are to help us in regard to a full clearance in view of our enjoyment of life in all its richness as presented in this passage here; this life that is in God’s Son, that exalted position.
HW We are impressed with the immensity of the position, the Christian’s position. He not only takes his bearings from Christ on high, but he can take his soundings and find out where he is. If we were more deeply impressed with the wealth of the position, we would be preserved in the truth, as John says, “walking in truth.” We sometimes overlook how rich this position is for us.
SMcC How important it is, especially for the younger brethren, that they should understand the force of this passage, “He that believes on the Son of God has the witness in himself.” Oftentimes, as you say, we need help in taking soundings. John’s ministry helps us in that, so that we should get our bearings in the truth.
JP-s-n The Spirit really helps us in the maintenance, of the line of faith, does He? The Lord says as a result of the teaching in regard to the sending of the Spirit in John 14, “because I live ye also shall live. In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you,” John 14: 19, 20. The Spirit would maintain us livingly in the enjoyment of this.
SMcC There you have life in its highest aspect in John’s gospel; that is, life operatively. Eternal life is not so much life operatively; it is life as linked with an objective environment where God is known. But in John 14 and in John 6 reference is made to life operatively in the saints and that is effective through our nearness to Christ: “because I live ye also shall live.” Our life is bound up with His life.
RHG Does believing that Jesus is the Son of God bring us consciously into a vast system of glory which centres in Him?
SMcC That is what we want to get hold of. Faith is a great matter in this realm. There are two great resources in Christianity, faith and the Spirit, and, speaking reverently, we are to learn how to use these resources. It is a great matter that we should employ faith, draw upon faith, in regard to the richness and dignity of this realm that John would impress our minds with, and that is linked with God’s Son.
CEJ Would Paul and Silas in prison have this in their hearts when they sang praises to God?
SMcC You could see how it was substantially with them, so that they were reigning in life, as it says in Romans 5. I think we all need help in that, I know I do, as to reigning in life, so that our businesses are not on the top of us. We are on the top of our businesses, and our circumstances, reigning in life. That is what Paul and Silas were doing.
DJM Does the Spirit keep faith active in our souls?
SMcC His service would be constantly directed towards that. Now in John 5 we should be impressed with the immensity of the operations that are before us here and the prime place that the voice of the Son of God has. It says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live.” This is a remarkable expression “the voice of the Son of God.” How much would enter into that voice! And it is a great thing that it should be heard. It says, “they that have heard shall live.”
HJM Where is that voice heard?
SMcC In Christianity.
HJM I am sure of that indeed. Mr. Raven has referred it to the greatness of what has been expressed in the death of the Son of God.
SMcC There has been a remarkable touch in that. Christianity is characterised in its uniqueness by what is imparted through the voice of the Son of God.
FRG Does it link with “For the Father loves the Son.” The voice of the Son of God is linked with love and the Father’s love to our souls.
SMcC This whole realm, as we were noticing in Palmerston North the other day, is radiant with divine affection. We have the radiation of divine affection here. “For the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does.” We want to be drawn over to this, to see the prime matter that divine Persons have in hand. The Father is operating, the Son operating; the Spirit too is operating, as in the next chapter, the Spirit quickens. The service of God is in mind.
DJM You said earlier that the assembly understands quickening as no other family. Would you explain that please?
SMcC Well, because of the inward character of it at the present time, and because we have the Spirit in a way which no other family will have the Spirit. While the Spirit is not alluded to here, this would contemplate the presence of the Spirit in the saints.
DJM And would Paul’s word come in, “has quickened us with the Christ,” Ephesians 2: 5. Would that be unique to the assembly?
SMcC Exactly. Ephesians 2 and John 5 go together, in that the assembly is the particular and peculiar subject of these sovereign operations. Israel will be quickened in a national way, as we know from the Scriptures, especially Ezekiel, but not in the same way that the saints of the assembly know quickening.
JNG What is quickening? Is it a present actual thing in the soul? It is not linked with faith, is it?
SMcC No. Resurrection is linked with faith. We are to notice the difference. Quickening is linked with the voice of the Son of God and the presence of the Spirit, but resurrection is linked with faith. If we were to go out into the world and tell people that we were raised, they would think we were foolish, because we are still in our bodies. Resurrection is a faith matter, but quickening is not a faith matter. Quickening is an actual divine operation which affects our souls and makes us to live through the Spirit which indwells us. It is an actual matter.
RMY Is it something more than new birth?
SMcC It is not the line of new birth here. We get things in embryo and principle in new birth. But the quickening as we have it here contemplates the presence of the Spirit as received.
PB So the quickening would involve the voice of the Son of God. It would involve a definite impression of Christ, the Son of God, and would be power in the soul.
SMcC Well it is, it is power in the soul. Think of the power that it will wield when the Lord comes, when all that are in their graves, the dead in Christ, shall be raised first. Think of the power of that voice! Think of it now morally and spiritually in the saints of the assembly, so that we are made to live! It is an actual substantial fact, that we are made to live spiritually.
JD Is it important, “an hour is coming, and now is”? We have that same word in chapter 4, “But the hour is coming and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth,” John 4: 23.
SMcC Yes, there would be a link in that way. We know what the voice of the Son of God is now; “and they that have heard shall live.”
CEJ Is there any link with what Paul says at his conversion and what Ananias said to him? “The God of our fathers has chosen thee beforehand to know, his will, and to see the just one, and to hear a voice out of His mouth,” Acts 22: 14. Paul hearing a voice out of His mouth, was so affected that he got the light of the Son of God in his soul and the light of another world.
SMcC That is interesting, because he was so affected in all his ministry by this matter of the Son of God.
DJM Does quickening involve our affections, that we are made to live in our affections?
SMcC Yes. We are made to live in relation to divine affections. It involves the affections. In the new birth we are not exactly made to live in the divine nature. It is not a question of nature so much: “That which is born of the Spirit is spirit,” John 3: 6. It is the thing in its element and character. But when we come to quickening, we come to what stands related to a state of death. We are quickened out of a state of death, made to live. New birth is not being quickened out of a state of death. New birth is a sovereign act of the Spirit upon a responsible person. Quickening is not presented in the same way.
AJW Would that be seen in Romans 8: 10, 11, the operation of the Spirit there?
SMcC Of course the quickening there is alluding to a future time, the time of the rapture. When the Lord shall come, the Spirit will have the last touch in relation to our bodies. He will quicken these mortal bodies. He will not take us to heaven. The Lord will do that. But the Spirit with regard to us who are living and remain, will have that last touch in regard to our bodies here. Of course the Lord comes in and He transforms our bodies like unto His own body of glory, but the Spirit has that definite touch in Romans 8: 9 at the moment of the translation.
JP In Colossians we have the raising before quickening, as in John. In Ephesians the quickening precedes the raising: “has quickened us with the Christ ... and has raised us up together.”
SMcC It helps us to see the truth in its parts and the context in which it appears and the prime matter in hand. In Colossians and in John the resurrection is a prime matter; it goes on to speak of the resurrection. Resurrection seems to be the greater thought on the public side in Colossians and in John 5, but quickening is the greater thought in Ephesians 2.
RHG Is quickening essential for us to have our part livingly in sonship?
SMcC You mean as to our enjoyment of our part in the divine realm, because we are sons of God by faith in Christ Jesus, not by quickening. But then when you come to the state linked with sonship, it contemplates the presence of the Spirit and the state that is formed suited to that.
RHG I was thinking particularly of our part in the service of God.
SMcC Yes exactly.
DJM Raised up in Ephesians goes further than resurrection, does it not?
SMcC Yes, it takes us to ascension in Ephesians. The platform of the assembly’s position is not resurrection, it is ascension. But on the public side, resurrection is the greatest witness to the power of God. Quickening, as we are referring to it has to do with the inward, spiritual, heavenly line; but resurrection has to do with the public testimony of God.
CHG Would you say a little more as to the connection of quickening with the divine nature?
SMcC It is a sovereign divine act. It is a question of what divine Persons are doing on this high elevated level, having in mind not exactly our relief. That is not the point. It is a question of the divine pleasure, a question of the service of God, and for this reason quickening is needed, for this is not to be in terms, it is to be in life, quickening having that in mind. Peter speaks of the saints as partakers of the divine nature.
HJM In John 5 it finds expression in honouring the Son and honouring the Father.
SMcC It is an interesting thing how that comes in here, that while the Son is presented in a subordinate way in regard to the operations, yet His equality is stressed. It says, “that all may honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.” John has a way of reminding us in the presence of mediatorial operations that we are never to forget the co-equality of the Son with the Father.
Ques Would verse 24 be the result of abiding in Christ?
SMcC “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal.” That is, that is the characteristic of the person who has eternal life. He hears Christ’s word and believes Him that has sent Him. That character of person has life eternal “and does not come unto judgment, but is passed out of death into life.” So that the service of God involves a sphere of life, and not only involves a sphere of life, but it involves persons quickened in that life, made to live in that life, so as to serve God suitably.
CPP Does the question of life underlie the enjoyment of relationships as we move on in our minds to the service?
SMcC It enters into our part in the relationships: quickening affecting us subjectively, so that life in this way is a very real matter spiritually. Resurrection is a faith matter. It is what we arrive at by faith, “raised with him through faith of the working of God,” Colossians 2: 12.
That is a matter of faith. But quickening is a real matter in John 5 that affects us spiritually.
GJG Are we to give ourselves over to these divine operations and understand their working in us? The words “Verily, verily,” come in three times very close together here, as if we are to understand that this great matter is the work of divine Persons.
SMcC These words “Verily, verily” are important. As we have been taught, the epistles are primary; the gospels are not primary, they are confirmatory. We could never establish Christianity from the gospels. The gospels extend beyond our dispensation. They involve the world to come. The epistles are dealing with Christianity; that is, Christ at the right hand of God and the Spirit down here in relation to which Christianity is established. We come back through the epistles into the gospels, and John is the gospel that we should begin with, and the gospels confirm us in what is set out in the epistles, these “verilys” bearing on it.
CD Is Hezekiah an example of one who is quickened? He says, “Thou hast recovered me, and made me to live,” Isaiah 38: 16. Then he goes on to say, “The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I this day ... And we will play upon my stringed instruments all the days of our life, in the house of Jehovah,” verses 19, 20. I was thinking of what you were saying as to the living having part in the service of God.
SMcC It is a beautiful portion in Isaiah, as if to impress us with Hezekiah’s experience, because that is what it is. It is “The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness,” Isaiah 38: 9. It is what is experimental, and the Psalms are filled with it; some of the prophets too help us as to it. Hezekiah’s writing is full of the thought of what is experimental; that is, what we really arrive at in ourselves in relation to the service of God.
DCW In John 5: 21 it speaks of the Father raising the dead and quickening them and “the Son also quickens whom he will.” Would you say something about that in relation to its bearing on the service of God?
SMcC And the next chapter, if we might just refer to it, verse 63, “It is the Spirit which quickens, the flesh profits nothing.” We can see what a prime matter this quickening is, that it is linked with every one of the Persons of the Godhead - the Father, the Son and the Spirit. They are all in the matter of quickening.
RMY Is there any responsibility on our side? I think we all yearn for more buoyancy and more liberty in the service, but we cannot achieve our own quickening, can we?
SMcC No, the quickening is a matter of divine sovereignty. Verse 25, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that an hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live,” involves our links with the Son of God, hearing His voice, like the man in John 9. He arrived at the truth of the Son of God, as we had in 1 John 5, “Who is he that gets the victory over the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?”
GJD Does it involve spiritual perception as to the movements of the Lord amongst us. We sing the hymn, “We live of Thee, we’ve heard Thy quick’ning voice.” (137:3) Is it a matter of spiritual sensibilities in the service to hear that voice?
SMcC Exactly. Think of the greatness of it! How it draws us out of everything here! Some of J.N.D.’s hymns are filled with the thought of it. The Son of God is linked with another world. It speaks later of those that “shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment,” verse 29. It is linked with the moral side there, the side of responsibility.
CPP Is it right to say that quickening is a historical matter and also a present experience to be known by us as we go along?
SMcC The enjoyment of it would be a constant matter with us. Quickening is a sovereign action. It is not exactly viewed in relation to what is chronological, either here, or in Ephesians 2. In Ephesians 2 quickening does not stand related to a particular moment of time. It is presented in relation to the totality of the work of God from Pentecost to the rapture, embracing every bit of the work of God.
WHG Is verse 24, inserted between the previous verses dealing with the sovereign side, to give us our side in connection with faith?
SMcC Yes, that is it, the characteristics of the person who comes into the gain of life. He hears Christ’s word and believes Him that has sent Him.
JD Would the quickening be that the Persons of the Godhead are really operating in love in view of this?
SMcC Love is linked with the whole matter. It is a question of our being made to live in relation to divine affections. We are in a realm of love. It is not only that we are arbitrarily brought into it by a divine operation, but we are affected constitutionally, affected spiritually, so that we live in it. We are at home in the presence of divine love.
RCR So is the Lord in John 17 asking to be glorified that He may give the saints eternal life, in view of their part in the service of God, that God may be glorified?
SMcC That is the thing that is in mind. It is a great extensive realm in John 17 again, just as in John 5,
but it is particularly made to bear upon the saints of the assembly, just as in John 17: 2 the millennium would be in mind, the world to come. But the chapter resolves in its teaching into the saints of the assembly, and the particular application of the service of Christ to the saints of the assembly, as it says, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou has given him authority over all flesh, that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou has sent.” Then He proceeds to speak of the saints of the assembly, the prime matter of the moment.
RCR “Glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.” Is “glorifying thee” through assembly? Does He give us eternal life to bring us into this, to glorify the Father?
SMcC “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee.” We are to be reminded in the closing chapters of John’s gospel of this realm of glory. The service of God involves glory. You will remember in John 13 the Lord says in verse 31, “Now is the Son of man glorified” - alluding to the cross - “and God is glorified in him,” that is, moral glory linked with the cross, the going into death. And then, “If God be glorified in him, God also shall glorify him in himself” - that is, in God - “and shall glorify him immediately.” The “immediately” is pointing to the greatness of the present time of the assembly, that it is not deferred till the millennium. There will be wonderful glory in the millennium in regard to Christ and the administration, but the glory is not deferred. He glorifies Him immediately, that is the present time in the assembly.
CBS As to that matter of glory, and what you have been saying as to quickening, would you mind saying a word now as bearing on the service of God as to change according to 2 Corinthians 3?
SMcC It is very real. ‘Metamorphose,’ the word used in 2 Corinthians 3, is a very strong word, not very often used. Once or twice again it is used, and it means a substantial change, that this matter of “from glory to glory” is not light exactly; it is not that a mere picture passes before our eyes at one section, then another picture passes before our eyes at another section. It is what the saints are substantially as affected by the service of the Lord Spirit.
John 17: 26 has in mind the time of the assembly. It says in that verse, “That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them.” That is, the Lord is thinking of the greatness of the assembly as the vessel of the service of God, all the knowledge linked with Himself bearing upon it in all its distinctiveness.
HJM Does that bear on Ephesians 3, following the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, the administration of the mystery, then Paul’s great prayer as to the Father and the Spirit, Christ dwelling in our hearts by faith, and then glory in the assembly?
SMcC Exactly, so that the magnitude of these things is to affect us.
VTS In this connection of glorifying Him immediately and the Son of God being glorified, would you say a little about its connection with worship?
SMcC It is to bring out the richness of the assembly realm; that it is not just a realm where we are getting through as supported in wilderness surroundings by the exercise arbitrarily of divine support, but the assembly is a realm of glory, where divine Persons are operating in glory, both in regard to Christ and in regard to the saints themselves. The assembly realm affords the place for the immediate glorification of Christ before the millennium is introduced. That is the force of the word “immediately.”
SEE So that the climax of love is reached in glory?
SMcC Exactly. “That the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them and I in them.” This involves a glorious state of things, but a state of things too in life, eternal life underlying the whole position, and in which we are to be marked by spiritual fluidness in the service of God. That is the great feature of life; so that we do not get into rigidity, crystallisation, in regard to terms in the service of God.
VTS I had that partly in mind when I was speaking of worship. Are the glories of Christ to come into expression at any time in the service when the Lord is before us, and worship?
SMcC Anything that conveys a ray of His glory should elicit an Amen from our hearts and souls. Of course we must keep in mind that we are regulated by the light that governs the position, but we should not be easily deflected by something that we think refers to what is outside the immediate range of things that is engaging us. There is need for spiritual fluidness.
Ques Can we be fluid in regard to His glories as Man and His glories as God? We do not need to separate them by a long pause, they can run one into the other?
SMcC Well, the Lord never changes personally. There would be liberty to refer to Him as God at any time, because the Person is the same Person. What He became has never altered what He was. He is always the same, unchanged and unchangeable, and a passing allusion to the greatness of His Person is not out of keeping at any time. The difficulty once arose in America as to giving out Hymn 181 after the Lord’s supper. It was thought by some that that was out of keeping, but Mr. Taylor insisted that it was quite in keeping, but we must always remember who the Lord is personally. While He is before us as Man, that does not in any sense change what He is personally; He is the same Person, unchanged and unchangeable. The same applies to the Spirit; the Spirit is the same as to His Person in the subordinate place He has taken as He is in the abstract relations of Deity; They have changed as to outward form and attitude, but the Persons are the same.
FRG So in manhood, as Man He is still the Object of worship?
SMcC Certainly, because it is a divine Person who is Man; it is an important thing to keep the truth in balance. Some of us were referring yesterday to the matter of the Lord’s death; we must be careful not to say that He died only as to His body; that Person died. It is important that we should keep that in mind or we weaken the whole structure of the atonement. That Person died! A divine Person in manhood.
JP It is who He is in His Person in manhood really that induces worship.
SMcC That is really the ground on which we do worship Him, do homage to Him, because of who He is personally.
Now in John 20 we do not get sonship alluded to directly, but indirectly, by implication, both in Christ and in the saints. Jesus says to Mary, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God.” We come to the great end in the service of God where we enjoy as having come into the knowledge of the Son of God, the uniqueness of our links with Him associated with Him as His brethren in relation to His Father and our Father and His God and ours.
GHW The Lord links His knowledge of the Father at the end of chapter 17 with their knowledge of Him as the sent One, “but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me,” verse 25.
SMcC Yes, the Lord says, “and the world has not known thee, but I have known thee.” He is presenting the contrast in Himself, then He links the saints on and says, “These have known that thou hast sent me.” So the Lord Jesus refers earlier in the gospel to, “We speak that which we know,” chapter 3: 11. That is, we belong to a class of persons who know things. The world does not know, but He says, “I have known thee, and these have known that thou has sent me.” It is a wonderful thing to be in that range of knowledge.
JNG There are three appellations used in John 17 as to the Father by the Lord. He says, Father, Holy Father, and Righteous Father. They are not terms which we generally employ. Should they be unique to the Lord Jesus or should we have liberty to employ them?
SMcC Mr. Darby had liberty in his hymns, “O Holy Father” is one of his expressions. I should certainly think we could use that if we had the liberty to use it, although what we are to be impressed with here is the intelligence of the Son of God in speaking to the Father in this way. His intelligence and knowledge would be unique. And in John 20 we should see how the liberty of Christianity as bound up with the knowledge of the Son of God, involves that we should appreciate and enjoy these wonderful relationship in which we are associated with Christ on the heavenly line.
HE If it is not holding you up, you referred to the Person going into death. What constitutes the Person please?
SMcC Well, what can we say about that, because no one knows the Son, but the Father.
HE What had you in mind in stressing that? I was thinking of His Spirit being committed into the hands of the Father.
SMcC We must be careful in speaking of the Son and His Person lest we should pry into what is beyond us. What I said was that we must not weaken the atonement in implying that He only died as to His body. That Person died. We must keep that in mind, because the whole structure of the atonement rests on that, from the cross right through to the resurrection. It rests on that Person, a divine Person in manhood and what he has done.
CPP So the word was “Come, see the place where the Lord lay,” Matthew 28: 6.
SMcC The grave was a real thing to the Lord, a real experience. We must not attempt to define just how He could be there and how He could be in another position. We have to beware lest we should intrude into what is beyond us. He said to the thief, “Today shalt thou be with me in paradise,” Luke 23: 43. The Lord left the body, as the believer leaves the body at dissolution. But we must remember that with the Lord Jesus the grave was a vicarious matter. The burial was a vicarious matter. It was an essential part of the atonement. The Lord was abandoned, and the answer to it is in resurrection. There was no answer publicly till the resurrection.
CPP And in the resurrection it was the Person who was raised. He was raised.
SMcC Exactly, the glory of the Father entered into it. It speaks of the “pains of death” in Acts 2, a remarkable thing. What can we say about it? We cannot say just how long it was, but there was some experience there as the Lord took His life again, and the pains of death were loosed. What can we say about the infiniteness of these matters involving that Person?
FRG So that Paul in speaking of the glad tidings in 1 Corinthians 15: 3, 4 speaks of how “Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures; and that he was buried; and that he was raised the third day, according to the scriptures.”
SMcC As to the sufferings of Christ on the cross and the grave the Lord entered into the grave in all its reality, but it is a question of what is negative and passive in that relation.
SEE Do we understand from what you have said that the sufferings of Christ terminated at the cross and did not enter into the grave?
SMcC It is important to keep in mind how Scripture views the matter, and publicly and positively the sufferings of Christ are linked with the cross, but we have to take account of the experience of the grave and burial in a passive way as the counterpart to the abandonment. The first cry the Lord raised, “It is finished,” meant that the dealing with sin and sins was completed. But the second cry has to do with His entering death and vicariously terminating not the sin and the sins, but the man that sinned.
SEE One would be a cry of anguish, would it not, but the other a cry of power?
SMcC Both were cries of power. The first cry has to do with the exhausting of the judgment of God, bringing out the greatness of the Person that was there, that He exhausted the judgment of God in regard to the matter of sin and sins.
EBMcC Did He do that as Man or as God, on the cross? It has been said that God died on the cross, but I do not like the term at all.
SMcC We are speaking of a Divine Person in manhood.
We cannot put the Lord into the place of active Deity at the cross. That leads to confusion. We must be very careful in these holy matters and holy subjects that we do not go beyond what we are intended. In all that has come up and what is said now, the importance is to see that the whole work of the atonement involved the abandonment, His death and burial, and resurrection. The Lord was heard in resurrection. He cried, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” His cry was answered in the resurrection, according to Psalm 22; from the horns of the unicorn He was heard.
EST Do you suggest that the abandonment extended through the three days and three nights in the grave?
SMcC No, I said it is the counterpart. The abandonment finished at the end of the three hours. The sense of the relationship was resumed, so that He says, “Father, into thy hands I commit my spirit.” The relationship itself was not broken, but all conscious sense of the relationship was broken, so that at the end of the three hours it is resumed. He says, “Father; into thy hands I commit my spirit.” But on the vicarious side, in regard to us, the burial is an essential counterpart to the abandonment in that the sinner is put out of sight. Publicly the answer to the forsaking is in resurrection.
FRG Death would directly refer to the reality of His manhood, would it?
SMcC Yes. It is a divine Person in manhood. The experience of death to Him as Man, in that He laid down His life in relation to one condition, and He took His life in relation to a new condition, was a real experience, an essential experience on our account, not on His own account. It would be blasphemy to think of it in that way. It was vicarious because of us.
DJM He was put to death as to His life in flesh.