JUDGMENT (2)

^[p. 273] JUDGMENT (2)

Romans 3: 21 - 26; Romans 4: 23 - 25; Matthew 27: 45, 46; Luke 23: 39 - 43; John 19: 30 - 34

JTJr The apostle Paul, in the first chapter of his epistle to the Romans, speaks about their faith which was proclaimed in the whole world. In referring to this the apostle is alluding to what had been wrought in them, so that what he is opening up to them in the epistle is expected to be intelligible to them. The truth which opens up from verse 21 onward in chapter 3 is in regard to the mercy-seat, a figure which is taken from the Old Testament. What is said of it here is to be understood by us in connection with what has preceded. The Lord is referred to as the Mercy-seat. “Whom God has set forth a mercy-seat through faith in his blood”, verse 25. We understand the truth of the mercy-seat from Old Testament scriptures — that what is in mind is to bring out the great truth of the atonement. What comes out here is based on the judgment having already been borne by Christ. The gospels bring out this truth, which lays the basis for the mercy-seat. The verses that we have read in the gospels allude to the great transaction having been accomplished. God’s judgment in regard to man has been carried out; therefore the three gospels from which we have read link up with this chapter. Mark’s gospel runs along with Matthew in this connection, so that there is no need of reading from Mark. We have the forsaking in Matthew and also in Mark — stressing the reality of the judgment of God that Christ went through. In Luke we do not get the forsaking, but we get the malefactor, who, in speaking to his fellow, refers to judgment; that is, that they were receiving the just recompense for their deeds. In John’s gospel we have reference to the blood of Christ, which is not mentioned in the other gospels. Here we have the actual reference to it — ^[p. 274] blood and water flowing out from the side of a dead Christ. So that these scriptures refer to what is involved in Romans 3 where it speaks of redemption, the great clearance of what stood out against us. Redemption is an accomplished fact, but it is based on the actual transaction on the cross, where the judgment of God was borne. The apostle does not refer to all these things, but his mind and heart are filled with the position that is reached; that is, God coming out in Christ in this way — the mercy-seat. It is not the judgment seat, but the mercy-seat. The two chapters bring out the results of this that are open to us; that is, that God is righteous in what He is doing and then, as being accounted righteous we are set up in a new way as justified. So that all that comes out in these chapters would help us to understand the way God has completely met every issue.

AR Leviticus 16 not only meets man’s need but satisfies God in regard to sin.

JTJr Yes; and emphasis is laid on the mercy-seat in that chapter.

AR The eyes of the cherubim look down on the mercy-seat in the tabernacle system.

JTJr Now redemption has been effected. What was there in a typical sense is in actuality at the present time. What we finished with on the last occasion was that man’s mouth is to be stopped and all the world under judgment to God and no flesh to be justified in His presence. God proceeds to show what He has accomplished and now the “righteousness of God ... towards all, and upon all those who believe”. Believing is in mind — those who believe. The apostle therefore is looking at the saints as having faith and able to follow him in what he is opening up as carried forward from the Old Testament. The blood was brought in and sprinkled on and before the mercy-seat; and then it was put on the horns of the altar. The type is to be ^[p. 275] understood by us as we consider the scriptures before us. The offering of the animals that were used as sacrifices meant that life was given up, but now the sacrifice of Christ enters into the matter. Christ has died, and the shedding of His blood is the basis for the mercy-seat in this chapter.

ANW The mercy-seat was actually a part of the ark. Does John’s gospel give us that upon which the mercy-seat rests in the Person of the blessed Lord? What He is personally is beyond us, and yet it lays the basis for the support of the mercy-seat.

JTJr The Person of Christ is immediately in view in this epistle. It speaks of the gospel of God concerning His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. It is the Person that is in view — you will notice that throughout. It is God’s gospel concerning His Son. The intimate link is seen between God and His Son. The cherubim overshadowed the mercy-seat in the type. That illuminates the meaning of this chapter. The death of Christ in the four gospels coincides with what is in this chapter. The gospels coincide with Paul’s gospel; so that there is perfect unity, you might say, in what is presented. Paul taking up these various positions to bring out the truth. I think we need the foundation of the judgment of things expressed in the cross laid in our souls. The gospels emphasise that. While it is not emphasised here, yet the connection is here; for example, the blood is mentioned here, and this immediately brings up His death — the actual fact that Christ was dead. John’s gospel records that the blood and water came out of the side of Christ as dead; that is, the judgment had been carried out. In the type in Leviticus 16, there was the sin-offering and also the burnt offering; that is, the will of God is carried through in the burnt offering. And the sin-offering is seen in that Christ offered Himself for sin. So that the whole will of God was carried through by Christ.

AR The Lord says, “It is finished”. I expect that refers to the fulfilment of God’s will.

JTJr I think so and it alludes to the completion of everything which the cross involved. The Lord is viewed as giving up His life of Himself in John. He said, “It is finished; and having bowed his head, he delivered up his spirit”, John 19: 30. That is, the work of atonement was carried through by Him. Then, as dead, the blood and water issue forth; so that the testimony of the gospel links up with Paul’s gospel.

JHE Paul says, “Where then is boasting? It has been excluded”, Romans 3: 27. It is excluded on the principle of faith.

JTJr One malefactor answers the other one in Luke. It is remarkable that this should come in at that point. The hanging is alluded to: “One of the malefactors who had been hanged ...” That is, they were being hanged for their deeds — death was the penalty for sin. But one said to the other, “We indeed justly, for we receive the just recompense of what we have done”. Earlier he had said, “Thou that art under the same judgment”. That is, one man arrived at that thought, that they were both suffering justly. They were getting the due reward of their deeds in being hung. It seems to me that this should help us to arrive at a judgment of what was actually due to us for sin — the judgment of God. That was our due.

AP We are not only to accept that the judgment was due to us, but also that the execution of the judgment has been effected.

JTJr Yes; we are to have a basis laid in our souls. The actual judgment of God has been borne by Christ and that has laid the basis for the mercy-seat. The judgment has been carried out in the death of Christ.

DP Would the working out of the truth in the epistles be found in perfection in the gospels?

JTJr I think the gospels give us what is foundational.

^[p. 277] The epistles complete the ministry in accord with the gospels. Therefore, you might say they run on together, for, in a sense, the gospels become the terminus, for the epistles while completing the ministry finally lead us back to the gospels. The gospels present the infinite work of Christ, finishing up with this wonderful work of atonement. Thus, as we have said, the judgment has been borne by Jesus.

FNW Do the epistles, and especially the epistle to the Romans, give us the ground on which we stand before God, but the understanding of the life of Jesus in the gospels would establish that subjectively in our souls?

JTJr I think this epistle shows that there was faith in the saints at Rome and there is to be faith in our souls also. This is referred to in chapter 1. Therefore, if he brings up the subject of the mercy-seat, it is supposed that we know something about it. Therefore, chapter 16 of Leviticus and, of course, the whole of Scripture, should be known by us. The mercy-seat refers to the atoning work of the Lord Jesus. We should know something about what it means and how the work of atonement has been completed and the suffering endured by Jesus Himself. He has borne the judgment. He was the Sin-offering. Matthew gives us the sin-offering.

WFK Does the epistle to the Romans help us in self-judgment? The apostle went into it thoroughly in chapter 7. He says, “in me, that is, in my flesh, good does not dwell”. Would that help us to come into what God would have for us in the mercy-seat?

JTJr That would follow on. Romans 7 is experience in ourselves. What we have here, as touching on the mercy-seat, is what we can only view objectively — what has taken place in Christ. He went through this vicariously, but actually.

WFK The thief realised that he received the due reward of his deeds.

JTJr ^[p. 278] The judgment was being carried out in regard to the malefactors. The one was agreeing with that — it was due to him. And that is what we should come to. We are not in the place of judgment; the malefactor was. He was being put to death. The actual judgment was coming upon him. His life was being taken and he arrives, in his mind, at this fact, that that judgment was right. But He says that Jesus had done nothing amiss. He came to it that there was One there who had done nothing amiss; but He was dying, too. He was being put to death. The One who had done nothing amiss was being put to death. That seems to be suggestive to me as to what our own position should be. What would we be in our hearts if we were actually dying as that thief was? What thoughts would come up in our minds if we were going through the actual penalty?

ABP Bringing him into our chapter, he would endorse the expression, “the righteous judgment of God”, and would seem to have some apprehension of “the redemption which is in Christ Jesus”.

JTJr I would think so. It is remarkable that the minds of the malefactors could be as active as they were. No doubt God was bringing out all these great things. On the one hand, I suppose, it was compensation for Christ at that moment. This side does not enter into Matthew’s presentation — that there should be this change in circumstances. But Luke shows that there was something for Christ which God gave Him at that moment.

CAM The judgment the thief was under, and which he recognised was due him, did not atone for his sins. All depended on the work of Christ beside him. In the fear of God he arrived at that fact that there was nothing for him but death as the result of his life; the judgment he bore did not save his soul. Salvation was by the work of the offering Priest. ^[p. 279] I use that expression because this incident occurs in Luke’s account.

JTJr Yes; you mean the offering Priest is Christ. What is going on in these men is therefore very instructive to us. We can arrive at something in this way, although not being in the circumstances that they were in. So that we can reach this — that our due is judgment and death.

FSC Will the judgment seat of Christ bring all out?

JTJr The judgment seat of Christ is where everything in the believer’s life comes up for review; the deeds done in the body; not in the way of penalty, but as bringing out all that these deeds were, and if we have not arrived already at the judgment seat about things it will be, I suppose, loss to us at that time.

AR In Leviticus 16 the priest went into the sanctuary with the blood.

JTJr Quite so. I suppose the work of redemption would be accomplished apart from anything in the malefactor. What comes out in Matthew is not connected with the malefactor’s conversion, because what is being stressed, I suppose, is the fact that the judgment of God is being carried out. The wrath of God in all its fulness has come upon Christ, according to Matthew, which gives the abandonment in its awfulness: “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Matthew 27: 46.

JAP Is that the side in Corinthians? “Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us”, 2 Corinthians 5: 21?

JTJr That is right — the Lord was made sin. That is what called forth the Lord’s own words: “Why hast thou forsaken me?” It was because He had been made sin. So that Matthew stresses that side of the Lord’s position on the cross — that He suffered infinitely.

EAL In Romans 3 we have, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”. The malefactor said, “We indeed justly ...” Does he include us in that? He says ‘we’ twice. Would that be the ‘all’ of Romans 3?

JTJr He is referring at the moment to himself and the other malefactor, but we can identify ourselves with such a statement when we think of what we have been.

ANW Is he not only thinking of the death penalty there being imposed upon him, but also of the final judgment in view? They cannot get out of that. “Dost thou too not fear God?” Has he not the final judgment in mind, but sees the answer to it in this Man who has done nothing amiss?

JTJr I think so. The feelings of a man in this position, but now having light in his soul, would bring out these expressions. He refers to the same judgment. It says, “One of the malefactors who had been hanged”. That is the way these men were being put to death, and the Lord is there being put to death in the same way. There is one Man going through death who has done nothing amiss.

JHE Would not this incident in Luke confirm Romans 3: 26? It says, “For the showing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus”. This thief proves to be of the faith of Jesus, does he not?

JTJr That is right; so he would be justified. He says, “We indeed justly, for we receive the just recompense of what we have done”, that is, the just recompense was judgment. But what comes up in Romans 3 is justification. God is now just in passing by sins. He has a right to do it because Jesus has died. He has a right to set us up in justification. That is what these scriptures bring before us. God is just and the justifier of him that is of the faith of Jesus.

RHS What relationship is there between judgment and guilt? I was thinking of God’s judgment and the sinner bearing his ^[p. 281] own guilt.

JTJr You mean that there is guilt attached to sin and therefore a penalty. The apostle says, “The wages of sin is death”. That is the judgment — the penalty. We get this penalty in the gospels. The penalty is borne by Christ in going into death, having been made sin; that is, He bore the guilt. All the sins, according to Leviticus 16, are put upon the goat — the priest confesses over the goat all the sins of the people, so that Christ, in that way, takes our sins. He takes them up and bears them, and that side, I suppose, comes out in Matthew, when He says, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” He had taken up the sin question. The judgment was being carried out, and that is what should be a basis in our souls for understanding the mercy-seat and what flows out from that in Romans 3.

WAT You were saying that God now has a right to justify man. Is not that what the mercy-seat really means? It is a place where God can meet man.

JTJr Quite so; it is not a judgment-seat. Pilate’s judgment-seat was alluded to in prayer. It is remarkable how it comes up in Matthew. Pilate sat on the judgment-seat, and he was judging, and he judged that Jesus was a righteous Man. And in John 19 he says, “I find no fault in him”. That was his judgment, but after saying He was guiltless, he allowed the sentence to be carried out against Him. But God turns the whole matter around; instead of coming out in judgment against man, He comes out in the mercy-seat. How wonderful it is — instead of God acting judicially against man He acts in mercy. It is the mercy-seat instead of the judgment-seat.

SM In John 8, did He justify the woman? “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more”.

JTJr He says, “Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her”, and He is left alone with the woman. He alone could rightly cast the stone, for He alone was without sin. Instead, he says, “Go, and sin no more”. God has come out in the mercy-seat in a universal way. The mercy-seat was linked up with the tabernacle system. It was limited to Israel, but God had the whole universe in mind in the tabernacle, and the mercy-seat stands in relation to the whole universe now, and no doubt alludes to what is down here. The gospel is being preached on that basis — according to what is here. Christ is set forth as a mercy-seat. His blood is in mind; “through faith in his blood”. The fact of His death should always be before us in the presentation of the glad tidings.

AAT How would you distinguish between propitiation and substitution in connection with the work on the cross?

JTJr The Lord was substituting for us. He takes our place. That is substitution. But propitiation is that the mercy-seat represents God’s attitude now and Christ is that, for He has glorified God in the place of sin and eternally satisfied Him as to it. Instead of asserting His rights in judgment He asserts them in mercy. He had a right to deal with all in condemnation but instead of doing that He extends mercy, and He has a right to do so because of the work of Jesus.

AR Paul says mercy was shown him. I suppose we can all say that.

JTJr Quite so.

JAP Say a little more as to the mercy-seat being here.

JTJr I think it alludes to what is here. The gospel is being preached here by the Spirit of God sent down from heaven. It is what is here as I understand it.

SW It is said of the publican that he went down to his house justified rather than the Pharisee, because he said, “God be merciful to me, the sinner”. Would that bring in the thought of the mercy-seat?

JTJr “God be merciful to me, the sinner”. Quite so. He had some idea of what he needed, and what we all need — mercy. “All have sinned”. That is, the penalty attached to us. But then it goes on to say, “Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus”. So that these verses are based on what we have in the gospels as a testimony to the actual death of Jesus; and in John’s especially for he brings in the blood of Jesus which is referred to here: “... through faith in his blood”. The blood is recorded in John’s gospel only. We should, I think, consider these things as they are recorded in the gospels. Matthew stresses the forsaking. The Sin-offering is seen there — Christ actually was abandoned. The judgment of sin was complete, and in its entirety was being borne by Him. Therefore, these words which He uttered which are recorded in Matthew, and in Mark, should cause us to stand in holy reverence as we see that Christ was abandoned by God because of sin.

JHE It is noteworthy that in the gospel of John it says that there came out blood and water from the side of Jesus. In the first epistle of John reference is made to the water and blood. The order is reversed.

JTJr Quite so. It is therefore a question of what phase of the truth is being considered. In John 19 it is blood and water, but the water is not referred to in Romans 3. It is not emphasised there. The blood is emphasised. It is a question of atonement. It is a question of God meeting our sins. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission, and redemption is based upon the shed blood of Christ. Matthew is the one who stresses that, even in the Supper. When instituting it the Lord said, “For this is my blood, that of the new covenant, that shed for many for remission of sins”, Matthew 26: 28. So that Matthew is dealing with sins, and the Lord is the Sin-bearer.

SM Is that what comes out in Psalm 22?

JTJr Just so. The Lord’s feelings are brought ^[p. 284] out there. We have often noted that it is a feminine psalm; a subjective psalm; alluding to how our own feelings come out in relation to the sufferings of Christ.

JC Does the expression, “through faith in his blood”, exclude the flesh entirely?

JTJr It does. There would be no justification apart from the blood. The blood is an object of faith, but it is His blood: “through faith in his blood”. That means that Christ was actually dead; the blood flowed from a dead Christ. “Immediately there came out blood and water”. The actual fact of Christ’s death was the judgment had been borne.

AR Why is it a question of righteousness in Romans 3, whereas in Psalm 22, which is quoted in Matthew, it is a question of holiness?

JTJr I have no doubt the Lord is stressing righteousness here. It is the righteousness of God which is revealed in the gospel, according to Romans 1: 1. It is one of the things revealed. There are many other things, of course, in the gospel, but the righteousness of God is revealed in it, thereby establishing God’s right to deal with man in mercy. Therefore we get the truth of righteousness demonstrated in these chapters. Holiness is not stressed here, but the book begins with it, as it says, “... according to the Spirit of holiness”. It is also referred to in chapter 5; the Holy Spirit, and then the believer yielding his members through righteousness unto holiness.

AR Psalm 22 says, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” Then it says, “thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel”.

JTJr That is very instructive, I am sure, because in the midst of all this terrible evil is the Holy One; the Lord Jesus. As it says, elsewhere, “neither wilt thou allow thy Holy One to see corruption”. It all brings out the sufferings of Christ and the reality of His death. He was made sin, and while He did not see corruption,

^[p. 285] yet He felt all that was involved in death. He tasted death.

ABP Is there not also a connection with Luke in Psalm 22, in: “thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel”?

JTJr Quite so; Luke therefore leads us on to the service of God. He does not stress the suffering side like Matthew and Mark. In His prayer, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do”, we see grace shining in the midst of all these terrible conditions. The grace of God is shining in a Man who was there in the midst of these extreme conditions.

FNW What are the two parts to the day of atonement?

JTJr Leviticus 16, I think, needs to be studied by us to get the connection with the mercy-seat here. You will remember that Aaron was to take a young bullock for a sin-offering and a ram for the burnt-offering, and then the children of Israel took two goats — one for Jehovah and one for the people, and the one goat, which is called Jehovah’s, was slain. But the blood was to be sprinkled on the mercy-seat and before it. Then the other goat, on which the sins were confessed was sent away into the land of forgetfulness; that is, the sins were borne away. So that the two sides, no doubt, are opened up to us in that chapter. There is much more detail, of course, which offers much for deep thought for us as to the relation of that chapter with Romans 3 where we have the mercy-seat. It is expected that the saints, I think, should learn the meaning of the mercy-seat. At the present time God is meeting man at the mercy-seat and not in judgment.

JAP Is one side of the matter seen in that the saints are living? The Lord died that we should live.

JTJr It says in chapter 4 that He was delivered for our offences, and He was raised again for our justification; that is, we are retained in the presence of God ^[p. 286] as justified. It is in view, I suppose, of the present order of things in the assembly; I mean that we are set up for something. If we have been justified, it is in view of something greater.

WAT The mercy-seat is brought in here for the showing forth of God’s righteousness; that it might be displayed in His dealing with the sinner, whereas in chapter 4 we get our justification.

JTJr God was glorified by Jesus, as the Lord says, “Now is the Son of man glorified and God is glorified in him”. He glorified God through His blood, which would allude to the goat for Jehovah’s lot. Then He bore our sins in His own body on the tree. The goat called Azazel went away, the sins of the people having been confessed upon it; that is, He took away our sins. God is just in passing by sins. And He justifies the believer. These two things need to be firmly in the soul — how God can do that; that He may be just, and justify him that is of the faith of Jesus. He has a right to assert Himself in mercy, which He does because of what Christ has done. He has turned the whole matter of the cross into the blessing of man, and therefore in the reading of these chapters and the passages in the gospels, one thought of how we should understand each viewpoint. First, in Matthew, it is abandonment; God forsaking Jesus; and then after as He yielded up His spirit the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom. That system was set aside and the true mercy-seat appeared. It is “set forth”, and in Christ Jesus God has come out in mercy to men as Romans 3 clearly shows. And then in Luke, there are two persons; one having no idea of judgment at all, wanting to get out of his predicament, but the other really convicted and speaking about the “same judgment” and turning to the Lord and finding in Him his salvation and his eternal joy, which he gets that very day.

ABP This is in tremendous contrast to the reprobate ^[p. 287] mind of chapter 1 where men fell into folly in their thoughts. That shows us the necessity for God’s judgment, but what seems to be before us here is that a man accepts the necessity for the judgment, which is borne vicariously by Christ, and avails himself of the mercy-seat.

JTJr Just so; and these believers in Rome, were evidently sufficiently acquainted with the truth in the Old Testament to know what the apostle meant by the mercy-seat. God is not acting in judgment. Judgment is put off; it will come in, of course, against the ungodly, but it is put off, and in the interim God is acting in this wonderful position of Christ being the mercy-seat. It is the basis of the gospel. God is putting Christ before men as a mercy-seat. He is meeting them there; not condemning them, but justifying those who believe.

ABP Do you have in mind that what happened at Calvary gives us the greatest concept of the judgment of God? If it is pending as to its execution upon lawless men, it has been witnessed to in the cross, and that helps us to repent and come to a right judgment of things in keeping with God’s judgment.

JTJr That is what I thought, so that record of the time is given, from the sixth to the ninth hour. That helps us to understand how intense the judgment was. In Romans, it is the gospel of God; and God, in this chapter, sets forth Christ as the mercy-seat, and God’s righteousness comes out in regard to the present dispensation. We are in that now; that order of things where God is dealing with man on the basis of mercy, not judicially. As the Lord said Himself: “For I am not come that I might judge the world, but that I might save the world”, John 12: 47. And the whole position is now carried forward in the Spirit, and the mercy-seat is here.

DP Do you think it is necessary that this truth be known before we can make any ^[p. 288] spiritual progress?

JTJr I think we get help as we go on in our souls. We are constantly brought back to contemplate the cross — the actually bearing of judgment that Christ has endured. So that in John 19, which connects with this chapter in that the blood is mentioned, the blood flows from Christ as dead. The blood and water flow from a dead Christ, and that becomes food for our souls. This great spectacle is before us, therefore, and, according to John, it is for the life of the world.

AP-f Would you say a word about the blood being sprinkled before and upon the mercy-seat.

JTJr God Himself is affected; His righteousness is maintained and man is retained in His presence — and then it is seen as extending out to the whole position. It was brought out to the altar, also. So that the whole position in the tabernacle was affected by the blood.

CAM Speaking again of the position of the mercy-seat. God has come out, so that the mercy-seat is in view before men. It is brought out, really, in view of all.

JTJr Quite so. Christ is being presented as having arisen from the dead and ascended, but also He is being presented as a mercy-seat, available to men. God has set Him forth in that way, through faith in His blood; and that takes you back immediately to the cross. That is, the blood denotes a dead Christ, that the actual judgment has been carried out. That becomes food for our souls, because John has living conditions in mind and if we are to live spiritually we require to eat the food that is suggested in John 6, the flesh and blood of Christ. That really became available when Christ died. In John 19, Christ actually was dead and His blood shed.

ABP Does not Hebrews involve that the Lord has entered into heaven — “not without blood”. But being set forth as a Mercy-seat is in testimony ^[p. 289] here in the gospel.

JTJr The mercy-seat was here in the tabernacle and it was seen in Peter’s preaching at Pentecost. Christ was set forth as a mercy-seat. It was a question of men believing. They say, What shall we do? Peter says, “Repent, and be baptised, each one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for remission of sins, and ye will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit”, Acts 2: 38. It was a question of appropriating the mercy-seat and Christ was presented in that way.

AR “Having therefore, brethren, boldness for entering into the holy of holies by the blood of Jesus, the new and living way”, Hebrews 10: 19. That is the way in, is it not?

JTJr Exactly. The blood of Jesus, therefore, is the basis for our going in; but here, in this chapter, it stands as having settled everything righteously. Forgiveness of sins has been established on a righteous basis.

CAM It is not a case of going in in Romans 3, but of God coming out.

DMacd What is involved in drinking His blood as stated in John 6?

JTJr The Lord sets forth what involves life and spiritual growth: “Unless ye shall have eaten the flesh of the Son of man, and drunk his blood, ye have no life in yourselves”, verse 53. He was alluding to His death, the fact that He was going to die, and the appropriation of that by the saints. John 19 was the actual fact that Christ was dead. When the soldiers came they found that He was dead. It was a miracle, really. The malefactors were not dead. The Lord had delivered up His spirit. He died Himself. Men could not take His life from Him according to John’s presentation. He delivers up His own life — but He is seen as a dead Christ! A marvellous thing to contemplate! The blood and water came forth from Him as dead. The blood would righteously meet every requirement of God’s throne; and the water is that which purifies us. It is that aspect of Christ’s death by which we are purified. What is presented in Romans 3, is the blood. God is establishing His righteous basis to forgive; to pass by the sins that were gone before and for the present time. God is showing forth His righteousness and nothing can dispute it.

CAM The water comes in in connection with our state. We are not dealing with our state in this part of Romans.

JTJr Exactly. Therefore, what we have read in John 19, is part of the teaching we should know in connection with the mercy-seat. We had nothing to do with it at all, no more than the thief that was dying on the cross. We could do nothing for ourselves. Christ has done it all, and God is coming out to forgive us instead of condemning us.

WAT The blood was sprinkled seven times, which confirms what you say.

JTJr The matter is finished. He says, It is finished. That looked on, no doubt, to His resurrection. But then the thing has been completed. The will of God had been carried out. The burnt-offering aspect has been carried out. The Lord was made sin and He carried out the will of God.

RHS Hebrews 9 helps in connection with that. “For if the blood of goats and bulls, and a heifer’s ashes sprinkling the defiled, sanctifies for the purity of the flesh, how much rather shall the blood of the Christ, who by the eternal Spirit offered himself spotless to God, purify your conscience from dead works to worship the living God?” verse 13.

JTJr Hebrews opens up much about the blood of Christ. It is to people who were slipping away. The truth of Christ’s priesthood was opened up in the epistle to the Hebrews to people who were slipping away from the truth. Therefore, we need to examine ^[p. 291] Romans 3 and to get firmly into our souls what God’s attitude is; what God’s disposition is and how right it is, so that we will become grounded in the truth. This does not have to do with our state at all. The state of the people comes up in Hebrews. They were turning aside from the gospel and, therefore, the writer would go back over what was from the beginning to explain the meaning of the blood of Christ. But then we also get the wonderful truth that Christ offered Himself without spot to God. That was done in the gospels. Luke coincides with that. He offered Himself without spot. That, no doubt, alluded to the first three hours on the cross. He offered Himself without spot to God, but the perfect Offering became the Sin-offering so that He says, at the ninth hour, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” The perfect Offering had become the Sin-offering. It was an actual matter; so in John 19, He says, It is finished. John’s account specially demonstrates that His life could not be taken from Him; that is, He laid it down of Himself.

WFK Where does Isaiah 53 come in?

JTJr I suppose that is more seen in the other gospels; how man oppressed Him and how His life was taken from the earth. His life was taken from Him, and the instruments were those wicked men, but then it was according to the foreknowledge of God; He delivered Him up.

WFK In John He allows Himself to be taken.

JTJr Quite so; but they fell to the ground, having gone away backward; and, we might say that the Jordan was driven back, according to John’s presentation.

DP Is the mercy-seat presented objectively in the gospel preaching, and faith in the soul apprehends that?

JTJr Yes; it is presented objectively. The gospel, of course, is very wide, and the Lord’s own pattern is what we should follow, and the pattern of Peter, and the other apostles; that is, the Lord came preaching ^[p. 292] the kingdom, and therefore it is good to follow the patterns we get from the Lord and from those especially selected to preach, but the gospel includes all that is connected with Himself, because He died and has become the Mercy-seat, so He is the Centre of everything. We might say that the mercy-seat is the centre of the universe.

WAT The cherubim have their faces opposite to one another, but toward the mercy-seat. That is the Centre.

JTJr Just so; God is satisfied with Jesus and there is complete complacency; that is, His work is finished; there is nothing to be added to it. It is complete.

JAP There is an interesting note in John 19: 35 to the words, “he who saw it bears witness”. Both ‘saw’ and ‘bears’ express what was present to the mind of the writer. Is that your thought in the mercy-seat that it is a present matter, though it took place nearly 2000 years ago?

JTJr Well, the mercy-seat is a living Person; that is the way He is presented in the gospel.

FNW “... showing forth of his righteousness in the present time”.

JTJr It is the present time; therefore, it is our own time. He passed by the sins that went before. That alludes to the previous dispensation; how God was dealing with sin. The effect of the mercy-seat extended all the way back in regard to the sins that had taken place before; God was righteous in doing that because of Christ.

RD Would you say a word as to the blood in relation to the cup? The Lord says, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you”.

JTJr You are quoting from Luke, but you will notice in Matthew that the Lord connects the cup with the remission of sins. Therefore what is in mind in ^[p. 293] Matthew is the Sin-offering. The question of sin is settled, and the new covenant is on that basis, and it will be so in regard to Israel. The question of sin will be the first matter settled, but when we come to Mark and Luke they do not mention sins. Mark says, “... shed for many”. The blood was shed for many, but there is no allusion to sin, and Mark therefore is bringing us nearer to the assembly service; preparing us for it, but Luke gives us the direct service, because what Paul says agrees with it, and there is no allusion to sin at all: “The new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you”. The point there is His love for the church, and that is the point in Corinthians, too; the Lord Jesus gave to Paul the terms of the Supper: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood”.

ANW It is the Person that is in mind in assembly service. “This do in remembrance of me”.