THE ASSEMBLY (1)

^[p. 502] THE ASSEMBLY (1)

Revelation 19: 6 - 8; Revelation 21:1-7; Revelation 21:9-12; Revelation 22: 16, 17

JT We cannot take up these scriptures in their fulness, as it would take more than one reading to do this. The thought is to look at them in a cursory way with a view to getting help as to the assembly viewed as the bride. We need not confine ourselves to that aspect merely, but to the assembly, only the thought of the bride is very prominent in all these scriptures. And then, on a later occasion, if the Lord may order it, we have thought of beginning at the beginning of Scripture, that is to say, the second chapter of Genesis. We begin with that in mind and then in time the Lord will help us, doubtless, to take up the types of the assembly beginning with Eve, she being the first type, and running on down through the Scriptures. All this would be in view of arriving at the book of Revelation finally, seeing how the assembly is set in the ways of God and in the purposes of God as being His greatest thought. The greatest thought of God, next to divine Persons, is in the assembly, and it is a mystery, for only that word really covers it fully. We get the word in various places, especially in Romans and Ephesians, and elsewhere in the New Testament. The word mystery should direct us to search ourselves, to discover whether or not we understand anything of the mystery. We belong to it, and it is of prime importance that every one of us should understand what it means, at least initially, so as to function in his place in it.

The first passage before us now is Revelation 19, and it treats of the assembly as the Lamb’s wife having made herself ready and therefore refers to her current history; and then chapter 21 treats of her as coming down from heaven as belonging to heaven and adorned as a bride, which is perhaps the most precious thought of the assembly. Then in verse 9 of the same chapter ^[p. 503] she is seen in relation to the coming age, the world to come, as we call it. Then, in verse 16 of chapter 22 we have the Lord Himself speaking to the assembly, or assemblies, as He calls them.

JTJr The reference to the marriage of the Lamb being come is a question of time? It is the historic side of things?

JT Just so, and you might say that it is current history; it is already a matter of fact, that the marriage of the Lamb has come.

AR Is that why it says, she “has made herself ready”?

JT “Let us rejoice and exult, and give him glory; for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready”, Revelation 19: 7.

AR Is that going on now?

JT She “has made herself ready”. It is not the adornment for her husband, as in chapter 21, but rather what she has done herself, in making herself ready for Him.

ANW It is His wife here, and not the bride.

JT Quite so; the one who cares for His interests.

RWS Is the marriage of the Lamb, in that sense, a current matter?

JT Well, it is a question of what we have on the first day of the week, because this dispensation is a weekly matter. It is not monthly, as it was in Israel, it is weekly. And the nuptials have already taken place; that is to say, the relation of the saints with Christ as the husband of the assembly. That has already taken place, as I understand it. What do you say about that?

RWS I can see that I need adjustment on it, because I thought that there must come a time actually when the marriage is actually consummated above — the marriage of the Lamb and the bride.

JT But then, I do not think we should require the Lord to wait for that, or assume ourselves to wait for it;

^[p. 504] the actual matter of union with Christ is already a fact. The book of Ephesians would indicate that. “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. And what he touches on before that is the relation of a man and his wife. But he says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”, whereas he is enjoining on us to love our own wives, so that the point is that the relationship between Christ and the assembly is marital. The thing is already effectuated.

PL So that in Deuteronomy 24: 5 we have the thought of the man having his wife to himself for one year before he goes forth to battle.

JT He was to have a season with his wife.

PL Yes, “When a man hath newly taken a wife, he shall not go out with the army, ... he ... shall gladden his wife whom he hath taken”.

JT I apprehend that is a fact already, the first day of the week involving it. It is a weekly matter, but especially the first day of the week.

AR Is the Lord’s supper the expression of the marital bond?

JT I think so, and rightly so. It is remarkable the place God has given 1 Corinthians 11, especially to bring out what the assembly is to Christ. And so with Ephesians 5: 25, “Husbands, love your own wives, even as the Christ also loved the assembly, and has delivered himself up for it”. Note, that it is “your own wives”, not others. Three times that word own is used there in regard to husbands and wives. And, of course, he says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”, for she is His own wife. Israel is not in mind, it is the assembly, although Israel also has the place of wife. Jacob had two wives. Leah and Rachel; Leah is a type of the assembly, whereas Rachel is a type of Israel; she is first loved and she is a type of Israel. You can understand how she was first loved, historically, for Israel was there before the assembly. But now that ^[p. 505] the assembly has come, she is His own wife. She has that place and no other family has it but the assembly.

CAM The eleventh chapter of 1 Corinthians commences with headship and our relation to Christ, and the behaviour of the woman, leading on to assembly service.

JT It is a mixed chapter; that is to say, the thought of the assembly is obscured by the conduct of the brethren; and that, of course, is often the case, alas! Hence the need for correction.

PL Is it in contrast to the Ephesian saints where the full lustre and glory of the assembly is unfolded?

JT Yes; he can speak of it in such a simple and feeling way, whereas to the Corinthians he speaks about having espoused them to one Man. It was just the espousal. But the marriage link is contemplated as already formed in the epistle to the Ephesians.

WAT What is meant by the expression: “the supper of the marriage of the Lamb”?

JT That is the public, formal thing, I would say, which is yet future. Every thing has its day, things are fixed in days and in time, and the supper of the Lamb is fixed as to time.

AR Subjection was apparently lacking at Corinth; whereas in Ephesians the assembly is seen as subjected to the Christ.

JT That is true as to Ephesians, but then what we have in Revelation 19: 9 is a future thing, I would think. “Blessed are they who are called to the supper of the marriage of the Lamb”.

RWS All of this would require spirituality to take on what is mysterious. “The letter kills, but the Spirit quickens”.

JT You have in your mind what is mysterious. I do not know if many of us know what mystery really is as applied to the assembly. The apostle says, “This ^[p. 506] mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”.

ANW By great mystery, does he mean that it is very mysterious or that it is a magnificent mystery?

JT It is the magnitude of the thing, I would think; the great secret of God. Secret things belong to God.

JTJr Would the idea of the wife come out in Paul himself in his great care for the assemblies and his great love for the saints? Was the feminine side expressed in him in that way?

JT I would think so; what he suffered, too, how much he suffered for it. He speaks of travailing. What a place he must have with the Lord because of his suffering in that connection, his identity with the idea of the mystery, with the assembly! And so the first day of the week, as we were saying, brings it out; we come together to meet with one another, and speak with one another. At least we have each other in mind, and then we begin to see how acceptable, how beautiful the saints are and how they come under the Lord’s eye in His quest for beauty. Psalm 19 brings out something like it, how the Lord comes out of His chamber. He comes out on the first day of the week, and He is looking for something that will attract Him, and that He can really love. Therefore as we meet together we can see that the Spirit puts beauty on us, and the Lord can see that beauty, and we can see it in each other.

AS Would you say a little more as to the mystery? Do you mean that it is little understood?

JT It is hardly understood at all, as far as I am concerned. I am not boasting in my ignorance; I know a little about it, but not very much. But I expect I know about as much as most, which would mean that we do not know very much about it. The apostle, at the end of the letter to Rome, touches upon it. He does not attempt to go into it, but he touches it, as if to say,

^[p. 507] You should all be interested in inquiring into this. And therefore he reserved it to open up more fully in other epistles.

PL It is that in which the spiritual are initiated, and in that sense all of us should be there, should we not?

JT Yes; and so he says in Ephesians 3: 4: “ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery”. He wanted the saints to know the knowledge he had of it, and that would mean that they should be stimulated that they should acquire something, at least, of the knowledge that Paul had; the knowledge of the assembly; knowledge of the mystery.

WAT He refers to his intelligence in the mystery of the Christ. Does the understanding of the mystery require spiritual intelligence?

JT Quite so; that is why you get that expression in the first letter to Corinth. He says, there, “I speak as to intelligent persons: do ye judge what I say”, chapter 10: 15. It is as much as to say, Look into the matter, and see what is meant by it; read it, read the words, spell it out and see what is meant in them.

JTJr And so when Jacob said, “I know, my son, I know”; it would be referring to intelligence.

JT Very good; it is well worth while appealing to the brethren as to the little real knowledge there is with us as to the truth, especially as to the mystery; and that we may look into it and that these readings may develop the truth in us as to it.

JTJr Would not the idea of age enter into it? It is such a man as Jacob saying, “I know”. Age would bring in intelligence; it would increase as we go on in years.

JT It is remarkable that he did know so much. He had to admit that his own days were few and evil, which is remarkable. And he had to admit that his days were not as the days and years of his forefathers. They undoubtedly had acquired more knowledge than ^[p. 508] he had, especially Abraham. But Jacob had acquired remarkable knowledge of the truth. The book of Genesis says much more about Jacob than it does about either Abraham or Isaac, and it is probably because God elected to use his age and experience and his sufferings to make him intelligent. So he could say to Joseph, “I know, my son, I know”, as if Joseph should have known, but he did not; and his father has to rebuke even Joseph for his ignorance.

PL Does the mystery involve the way Christ is alive here in His body — that He is the life of the body, when corporeally He is absent from the scene?

JT Well, that is mystery; it is a mystery that He should be in heaven, literally, and yet be here tonight, amongst us.

ANW The apostle says, “I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. Is the way that is stated to bring before us the two entities; both being distinct?

JT Both distinctive, that is very good. But what has been touched on should not be forgotten; that is to say, the idea of the mystery, and the physical feature of it, that the Lord is literally in heaven tonight. He is there, and far above all heavens indeed; and yet it can be said that He is here, for in Matthew it is never said that He went to heaven. The assumption is, in Matthew, that He is here. Although He is in heaven literally, as having ascended, yet He is here.

AP Did the apostle Paul get an understanding of it when the Lord said to him, “why dost thou persecute me”?

JT Well, that is it; the Lord put the thing concisely; you can hardly conceive of the thing being put more concisely. He intended to convey it to Paul when He said, “why dost thou persecute me?” But it took a long time to open it up. And there has been ministry after ministry, and books after books have been used by God to open it up; and are still being used. And ^[p. 509] then the question is whether we are getting the benefit of them.

ABP In Mark’s gospel it says that the Lord was taken up into heaven, but then it says, further, that the disciples went everywhere preaching, the Lord working with them. That would bring in the dual position, would it not?

JT It shows how real the position is, in that sense; that although He is literally in heaven, as is said, that He sat on the right hand of God, and literally He is doing that, but yet He was with them, going with them as they preached the word. So that Mark would tell those of us who are serving, how we are to serve, that we are to go here and there, but not forgetting, nevertheless, that we are under orders. We are under the Lord. We are not to be free agents, but under the Lord’s leading and guidance. But now, let us take, for instance, this book of Revelation; it speaks of the seven Spirits of God. Well now, let us ask ourselves what we know about the seven Spirits of God; what do we know about such movements as are implied in the number seven; seven instead of one. And yet, it is the Holy Spirit that is in mind.

ABP The apostle Paul said that Mark was profitable to him for the ministry. He must have had some appreciation of the mystery to be profitable to the apostle, would you not say?

JT Just so. But what about the seven Spirits? What do we think about them? It is not simply a question now of what any one of us is doing, but what does the reference to the seven Spirits mean; the Spirit who is using us, in whose hand we are, is referred to as the seven Spirits of God.

ANW Must that not be characteristic rather than personal?

JT You are asking; I would like the brethren to say ^[p. 510] something.

ABP It would not refer to seven entities, but rather to the fulness of the operations of the Spirit, that idea being set out in the number seven.

JT Well, I think you are nearly right; there must be something of that kind in it, but I am not so sure we are saying just the fact. The thought of the seven Spirits of God belongs to this book, peculiarly to this book.

JTJr Perfection is in mind, I suppose, in the seven, but in variety; and variety in the servants. If the Spirit is acting in one brother, He is acting in others also.

JT Yes, and in unity; unity and variety. I believe that is what is implied in the seven Spirits of God. You get no such statement of the other divine Persons.

JTJr Would headship come out in that?

JT It is the variety of things that is worked out by the blessed Spirit in His activities. It is a question of the use of numbers; of what runs through the Scriptures, and of what words we may use, and our knowledge of them. God has selected writing as a means to convey His mind, and if we are to get His mind, we have to follow up the words He uses, and see how they are set and what they mean. The Spirit of God is first mentioned as brooding over the face of the waters; as much as to imply that He has a great deal to say, but it will take time to say it; and He is taking time to say it, and He is still saying it; saying it tonight.

PL And would the brooding now suggest His feelings in the saints? Is it not the thought of a bird tenderly hovering over its young?

JT Quite so; the blessed Spirit would feel the difficulties there were as to what He would like to say, but He could not say it because of what had happened. Something had happened before the book of Genesis, and the Spirit of God is recognising that that had ^[p. 511] happened. And we may as well recognise that if there are impediments we must wait on God to open things up for us. And so the Spirit is seen brooding over the face of the waters. He has a great deal to say; indeed we are told that God, by the Spirit, garnished the heavens. Think of God doing that! Think of the Spirit of God garnishing the heavens!

CAM Seven characteristics of the Spirit are contained in Isaiah 11: 2: “The Spirit of Jehovah shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah”.

JT These are characteristics of the Spirit.

JTJr While you do not get the mention of seven in relation to the Spirit coming in at Pentecost, yet the idea was there, I suppose. Immediately the Spirit came He would be unlimited; He would not be limited.

EEH What is in the idea of the Spirit resting bodily on Christ when He was baptised?

JT Well now, you said resting bodily. He came on the Lord, you mean. It is a remarkable word and I have often thought of it. The allusion is, I think, to Genesis 8. It is a question of the characteristics of a dove, and how those characteristics were fitting to the Lord at that particular time.

ABP Do we not have a great variety of names for the Spirit in our dispensation? There is the title Holy Spirit; and the Spirit of God; the Spirit of Jesus; the Spirit of Christ; the Spirit of truth; the Spirit of God’s Son; the eternal Spirit; the Spirit of glory, and others which I cannot recall.

JT That is very good, I would think; very suggestive. The seven Spirits of God contemplate what the Spirit is in His great activities, bordering on what has been so much before the brethren of late; how the Spirit of God can be spoken of, especially in type. It is often said that we do not read of speaking ^[p. 512] to the Spirit or praying to the Spirit, and so forth; but usually we allude to the New Testament only, forgetting that the Old Testament has equal authority with the New. The Old Testament contemplates certain ones speaking to the Spirit, such as Rebecca, and I would just like to raise the question about the Spirit and the way He is spoken of as the seven Spirits of God. And although there are certain things not spoken of in the New Testament, they are stated in the Old, having the same authority in the Old as they have in the New. And I think that is of prime importance as to what we are dealing with, how varied the facts of the Old Testament are as to the Spirit.

WWM In the end of Romans, where the apostle speaks of the revelation of the mystery, he says it has been made known by prophetic scriptures for the obedience of faith, to all the nations. That would be the light we have by the prophetic scriptures.

JT Just so; and so the word as to the assembly being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets. But this would not mean that the brethren should be limiting themselves to the New Testament. Of course, the New Testament has the first place. “Things new and old” suggests that the new come first; but we ought not to be limiting ourselves to the New Testament, for what the Old Testament says has the authority of Scripture, and if we make full allowance for that we will find ourselves with much more liberty than we now have in dealing with the truth as to the Spirit of God.

EAL The Lord, in the end of Luke 16, says, “If they hear not Moses and the prophets, not even if one rise from among the dead will they be persuaded”. That would refer to Old Testament prophets, would it not?

JT It would.

PL Is it not the Old Testament ^[p. 513] scriptures — the sacred letters — that Paul refers to in writing to Timothy?

JT Yes; he had known the sacred letters from a child, “which are able to make thee wise unto salvation” — his mother and grandmother knew too, and taught him.

GH You have referred to Numbers 21: “Spring up, O well; sing ye unto it”, and then what is recorded in type about the Spirit in Genesis 24. Would that be a part of the variety of the Spirit’s service?

JT Quite so; the head of Abraham’s house is a type of the Spirit and there are many other allusions to the Spirit.

JTJr And so, “Let there be light” begins to take form immediately in Scripture — the light in Genesis. “Let there be light: and there was light”.

JT Very good, it is not the searching for it. Let there be light. God says and there was light.

RWS Revelation 5 speaks of the Lamb standing, as slain, having seven horns and seven eyes which are the seven Spirits of God which are sent into all the earth. In connecting that with the suggestion about light, and eyes, I suppose, would mean that things are to be seen. We should see the truth.

JT Very good, so that if we talk about light, that there was light, and we might say that there is light, this principle runs right through the whole of Scripture. Furthermore, the word in 1 John is, “God is light”. So that there is light; you can hardly get a stronger expression as to light than that God is light, and that in Him there is no darkness at all. So that if anyone stands up and says anything that is dark, then he is not in the light; he is not speaking of the light, although the light is available.

FNW Some months ago you were stressing the importance of all the features of God coming down to us from the beginning. Should we, in the same way,

^[p. 514] treasure up every feature in which the Spirit Himself has been presented from the beginning?

JT Well, quite so; and the gifts are all involved in the presence of the Spirit here, because the gifts have all come down from Christ. I believe the Spirit brought all the gifts down with Him when He came down. The Lord Jesus sent Him down.

FNW Everything from Genesis to Revelation is for us by the Spirit.

JT That is quite right, everything from Genesis to Revelation is a question of light. And God is that light Himself, and it involves the gifts that are given in the Spirit to unfold things to us.

RHS Would it be right to link this thought of the seven Spirits with Zechariah? It says, “for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the Lord, which run to and fro through the whole earth”, chapter 4: 10.

JT That is very good.

DP And would the thought of the seven Spirits indicate that there is adequate means to carry through every divine proposal?

JT Quite so, if you consider the creation, before man was created, think of the enormous variety that had to be brought into evidence to effect the creation. But now, when you come to the moral system, think of the things that have to be brought in to effect it, and the gifts are included in that. So that there is plenty of accommodation and material and implementation with God to carry on. Those who are serving the Lord have part in this. And so it is a question of being sensible of having part in it and of being equal to it.

JAP Is that involved in the administration of the mystery that is going on now?

JT I would say so, because what we read ^[p. 515] in Revelation 21 — in fact, from verse 9 to the end of the chapter — is a question of the mystery of the assembly in its present activities administratively. All the unfoldings as to the breadth and the length and foundations, and other things which we cannot now undertake to name, are all representative of the wonderful variety in the administration of the Spirit of God in the assembly.

AMcD Do you think that John’s experience of being shown these great things is a principle in our day?

JT I would think so; it is a time of showing. Sometimes some of us get things directly from the Lord, but generally the truth is being opened up as we have quoted from Acts 17: 3, it is “opening and laying down”.

RWS John was alert for impressions, whether it was what he heard, or what he saw. That would bear on us peculiarly today, would it not?

JT Quite so, and so in these scriptures John himself has to be rebuked for worshipping an angel. Twice he fell down and worshipped, showing that even the most spiritual of us may be found in this way, indulging in undue occupation with ministering brothers. The angel says, “do it not”. “Do homage to God”.

FNW That would include the Spirit, would it not?

JT It would indeed; if we worship God we worship the Spirit. He has part in the Godhead, and thus it is very simple and very practical, but very true, that the blessed Spirit, as having part in the Godhead, is worshipped.

EAL There is an expression in Ezekiel 3: 24, “And the Spirit entered into me, and set me upon my feet; and he spoke with me”. And then, in verse 27, “And when I speak with thee, I will open thy mouth,

and thou shalt say unto them ...” I have particularly in mind the use of the word ‘with’ — “He spoke with me”, which would mean that there was conversation between them.

JT Quite so; very good.

AR In Revelation 21 it says that the Spirit carried the apostle away, as if the Spirit of God was serving the apostle.

JT Quite so. Just think of the gracious condescension of the Spirit, carrying a person.

AR I have wondered if, on the Lord’s day morning, the Spirit helps us to get into heaven, for we are said to be raised up together and made to sit down together in the heavenlies.

JT Showing the services He is ready to render to us at all times.

ABP Is that what is in mind when it says: “we ... have both access by one Spirit to the Father”, Ephesians 2: 18?

JT Quite so. He is ready to do that. We have all access by the one Spirit to the Father, through Christ; that is the way it stands, that it is by the one Spirit.

AR In Revelation 21: 9 it says, “Come here, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife”. But in verse 2 of the same chapter it refers to a bride adorned for her husband. She is not shown there. Why is there this difference?

JT Well, there were things to be shown, and there were things to be seen without being shown, so that both things are true. The Spirit of God is here, and He uses the gifts, and the gifts may be used to show us things. Paul was used to show the mystery; he opens up the mystery. He says to the Ephesians, “... ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ”. Well, that is the idea; Paul would show them if they were ready to listen to him.

ANW I wonder if it would be right to say that ^[p. 517] the city can be shown by the angel, but the bridal adorning for the husband needs keen spiritual sight and is hardly in the hands of an angel to show it.

JT The adorning is characteristic of the bride, it is ‘as‘ a bride. It is a sort of characterisation of the assembly: “... as a bride adorned for her husband”. It does not say that she is a bride adorned, it is just a characterisation of the assembly in that sense; that she is like that. But earlier, in chapter 19, it says, “his wife has made herself ready”. Everything that she needs is there. And so you find, for instance with Rebecca, she had a person to look after her; the feminine sense is brought into it peculiarly. And so it is that with the assembly there is that which attends her, whatever is needed.

JAP You said in your opening remarks that chapter 19 is current history, but the matter of adornment is future. Will you say more about that?

JT Well, what we have been saying is true. It is as a bride adorned. That is, the assembly is viewed thus in the new heavens and the new earth. It is a remarkable position; whereas in chapter 19 it says, “his wife has made herself ready”. It is what is current down here now. Then, in verse 9, she is seen administratively here in relation to the world to come. That is the position. So that we have the whole matter; the assembly in the present time in her everyday experiences, but all leading up to her being ready, as the Lamb’s wife. She is making herself ready. Then in chapter 21 she is seen in relation to the new heavens and the new earth; and then, in the latter part of that chapter, she is seen in relation to the world to come, of which we speak, as it says.

AR In Genesis 24 the servant gives Rebecca changes of raiment and jewels of silver and jewels of gold. Is that involved in the preparation that is going on ^[p. 518] now?

JT Well, quite so; things that are adorning. The Spirit of God affords those things to her.

ETP Why does the eternal thought as to the assembly precede the thought of administration in the millennium in chapter 21?

JT To show what she is in the new heavens and the new earth; that is what we are going on to; we are going on to a new heaven and a new earth, and she is seen there. But then, she comes down to the millennial earth, as we see in the latter part of the chapter.

PL Does that illustrate for us that we can alone come into the administrative sphere competently in relation to our portion and place in the eternal?

JT Well, I would say that; you come out from the eternal to fit into millennial conditions, but the millennium, as we speak of it, is not a perfect condition. It is not a perfect state of things, whereas the beginning of the chapter has a perfect state of things in mind. The new heaven and the new earth speak of a perfect state of things. But millennial conditions are just provisional.

ANW There is the suggestion of what is bridal after the period in which, as a wife, she has made herself ready. The wife making herself ready would be before the millennial day, and “as a bride adorned for her husband” refers to what follows the millennium.

JT The millennial day is the one in which she is seen administratively, and I think that we all should have clearly in mind what she is administratively — what is dealt with beginning with verse 9 of chapter 21 and running down to verse 5 of chapter 22. It is what she is millennially, but administratively.

JTJr It is the same vessel in each setting. In chapter 19 it is the wife; then, in chapter 21 it is the bride; then later in that chapter, the idea of the city. But it is the same vessel — the ^[p. 519] assembly.

JT Quite so; so that we can consider ourselves here tonight in New York, for example, on the principle of “the assembly of God which is in Corinth”, which is a geographical idea. But then, when we come to the beginning of Revelation 21, it is not that at all, it is the new heavens and the new earth; we have not touched that, but at the same time 2 Corinthians 5: 17 says, “if any one be in Christ, there is a new creation”. That is all it says; it is abstract, you cannot put your finger on it, but there is such a thing as that.

JTJr What comes out in Revelation 19 really involves that the wife is out of heaven.

JT Well, that is the fact. That is where the mystery lies; that is what we often speak about, that the assembly is the nearest creature to Deity, but she is not Deity. She is the nearest creature, but she is not deified; she never will be. At the same time there is some mystery about her that you get with no other part of the creation.

RHS Will you explain the distinction between the bride and the wife?

JT Well, there is the question of order, coming from the apostle Paul. He did not suffer a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man. Well, we may as well accept that. But the sisters have part in sonship. There is no daughtership; it is sonship, and the sisters all come into that because we are told that in new creation there is neither male nor female. And that sets us at rest as to it, we may as well accept that. New creation involves everyone in the assembly, what is “in Christ”. We are made new. It says of such, that they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God, they are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. These are wonderful statements but you cannot say a word against them, they are all true.

JTJr “Old things have passed away”. That should ^[p. 520] be seen at the present time, that all that is connected with the old man is gone and does not enter into our service.

JT Quite so, all things have become new.

AR How would you work out Paul’s statement: “we henceforth know no one according to flesh”, 2 Corinthians 5: 16?

JT Well, that is what we have been speaking about; what Paul said is in keeping with what we have been saying, that although we may say that the sisters must be silent, we have to learn that we know no one after the flesh; even though we have known Christ after the flesh, we henceforth know Him in that way no more. These are wonderful facts that we should accept.

PL Does not Paul follow the same order in 2 Corinthians 5 to which we have referred in the Revelation, starting with the abstract in relation to the eternal — new creation — then finishing up with what links on with the heavenly city? “Him who knew not sin he has made sin for us, that we might become God’s righteousness in him”. Is not that the heavenly city in the millennial day?

JT It is in view of that, that we might become that. So that 2 Corinthians particularly leads up to Ephesians.

PL And then comes out in the heavenly city.

JT Yes; and especially where we are dealing with assembly service now on the first day of the week. The Corinthian epistles are especially intended for that, to make us practical in the service.

JAP Are we to understand that the epistle to the Ephesians is to be made good now and not to be relegated to the future?

JT Quite so, it is to be made good now, and so Paul was concerned that they might know his knowledge of things. If they did not have it all, he had it. Someone had it, and so it is here, and we can look into it and learn what ^[p. 521] it means.

WAT He had in mind that the knowledge of the administration might enlighten all; so that knowledge is intended to enlighten us?

JT Just so, to enlighten all with the knowledge of the mystery.

AR Did you have in mind to refer to the Spirit and the bride in chapter 22?

JT Well, that is to bring out that the bride is the nearest creature to divine Persons. She says the same thing as the Spirit; the Spirit says it, and she says it. They both say, “Come”, and that would show how graciously God comes down to us, so as to bring us up to His level, if possible. It is not possible to make us divine. We are not divine, we are creatures; the assembly is a wonderful creature, there is no other family like it. Every family in the heavens and on the earth is named by the Father. The Spirit of God would say the assembly is the first family. It is the leading family of the whole creation.

ABP Will you tell us why so much is said of adornment and clothing here in contrast to Genesis 2 where there is no thought of adornment?

JT There was no thought of adornment there, for they were naked and they were not ashamed.

ABP But there is much said about it here.

JT It must be to meet what Genesis 2 speaks of, that they were not ashamed. But then, in chapter 3 sin comes in and they were ashamed. From that point on we have the idea of adornment, which is spiritual, and indicates what the divine thought is, that God has His thoughts, and these thoughts are worked out in the spiritual sense. And so, suggestively, there is the thought of covering. The first coverings were made according to God. In our place as sons of God there is no thought of female at all, we are all sons. And then, Paul said that he had espoused the Corinthians to one Man that he might present them a chaste virgin to Christ. That ^[p. 522] refers to all the saints at Corinth, they were all espoused to one Man and that one Man was Christ. So that the idea of male and female is shut out altogether, except in Christ and the assembly. The thought of male and female is seen properly in Christ and the assembly.

PL And is the clothing taken on as God’s answer, in His ways, to the scene of shame and all that has come in?

JT Quite so; think of what it will be in eternity! There will be no idea of shame there at all; all is according to God! All things are of God.

JTJr John says in chapter 3 of his gospel, “He that has the bride is the bridegroom”, and in the same section He alludes to Jesus as coming from heaven, “from above”. The origin of the bride also is heaven; is it not?

JT Quite so; we have to take account of that. Where does she come from? She is seen coming down from God out of heaven in Revelation. We cannot go beyond that. Someone may say that she comes from the earth before that, but that will not do; she properly comes down from God out of heaven.

AMcD Will you say a word about her having the glory of God; is that part of the mystery?

JT Well, it is, because all belongs to God; glory must come from God. When we come to assembly service it is from glory to glory. And so the glory has a wonderful part in it. All must emanate from God, the glory must all belong to God, coming out through Christ.

PL The vessel that is for the satisfaction of Christ’s love necessarily would have the glory of God. The Lord’s own devotion to God’s glory makes necessary that the vessel of His satisfaction should have that glory.

JT According to the Psalms every whit says glory. The Psalms are the great conservatory of what we may speak of in ministry. Glory all belongs to God, and so ^[p. 523] every whit says glory in the assembly; everything says glory there, and that must come from God.

RWS The Spirit in Revelation 14 speaks comfortingly of those who have died in the Lord: “Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; for their works follow with them”, verse 13. But at the end of the book His speaking is much more blessed in that He speaks in consonance with the bride saying, “Come”.

JT Quite so; in chapter 14 it is the Spirit, “Yea, saith the Spirit”. It is not the seven Spirits of God there. It is the Spirit individually. It is a peculiar touch of the Spirit speaking personally and honouring those who have laboured.

PL And would you say it is His affinity with such; for who have laboured like He has?

JT Quite so; very good. And then when you come to the seven Spirits, think of the activities of service, how much is done. How much can be done, and is being done, from the very beginning, from the divine side!

SW In chapter 1: 4 the seven Spirits are before the throne. In chapter 5: 6 they are sent into all the earth.

JT Well, in the first chapter, “before the throne” is the great idea of authority; they are before the throne, which represents the authority of God in the book of Revelation. The seven Spirits of God would correspond with the throne, for they would assert, or stress, or dominate. The seven Spirits would be in line with God’s thoughts and meet everything required in what God had to do.

JTJr That would have come out in Acts 15 where all that was said culminated in complete unity among the brethren.

JT Just so; and so you get a letter sent out saying that certain things seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to the brethren.

JTJr Yes, “it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us ...”

JT That is what I was thinking, “it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”. So that there is perfect unity, and that shows the activity that is going on all the time, the activity of the Spirit.

FNW Is it important, in that way, to notice that “the Spirit and the bride say, Come”. It is not the Spirit speaking through the bride, but the Spirit and the bride.

JT It is to bring out the distinction of the bride, and yet she is not a divine person. She is a creature; but it shows how near she is to Deity, if I may use that expression.