JUDGMENT (5)
[p. 338] JUDGMENT (5)
Romans 8: 31 to end; Romans 9: 1 - 23; Romans 11: 22 to end
JTJr At our last reading we reached the point in this epistle where it is said that there is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus. The question is raised in chapter 8: 34, “who is he that condemns?” In the first verse of that chapter it says, “There is therefore now no condemnation ...” There is no judgment for those in that position. The penalty was borne by Jesus (verse 3). It needs to be fully understood by us that we are in a position where no matter can be brought up against us in judgment. The apostle asks, also, “Who shall bring an accusation against God’s elect?” Who can accuse the believer? So that this section of the epistle brings out the greatness and unchangeableness of our position, as set free from death. Then the apostle turns to the matter of the rejection, for the moment, of Israel. Israel is, for the moment, set aside, as outlined in chapters 9, 10 and 11. God’s ways with them are brought out, finishing up with the doxology at the end of chapter 11, “how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!” He shuts up all in unbelief, that He might show mercy to all. We might consider these two lines, therefore, one ending in chapter 8 and the other, as regards Israel and the nations, ending in chapter 11.
Chapters 9, 10 and 11 involve mystery, according to verse 25 of chapter 11. No one can judge God in what He does. “O man, who art thou that answerest again to God?” He does not have to give an account of His matters to any. So that these are important scriptures involving that we understand what the position is, first of all in regard of ourselves, and then in regard to God’s earthly people. God’s ways are marvellous, and His wisdom, and knowledge are beyond human ken. He comes out in mercy to all, not only to the gentile, but [p. 339] also to the Jew.
RHS What relation does mercy have to judgment?
JTJr It says that mercy glories over judgment, James 2: 13. What has come out in chapter 3 proves that. Instead of being judged for our sins, God has come out in mercy to us and exercises His right to forgive us. Instead of the prisoner being executed, mercy comes in and glories over judgment and he is forgiven.
CAM This wonderful place where there is no judgment, in the beginning of chapter 8, is making room for the glorious sonship that is to be manifested. Do you think it introduces us into a region of things that cannot be tarnished by any matter to which judgment relates?
JTJr We are thus free to take up the service of God as His sons.
CAM It is a wonderful place to reach, is it not, after all that we have gone over in the earlier part of the epistle?
JTJr Yes; the believer needs to be established in this position, because the questions raised throughout the chapter may point to the fact that the enemy would seek to indict us and overwhelm us by any failures that might creep in. We do fail, and we do sin, but what comes in by the way in our histories, which involves our failures and sins, cannot change the position that has been arrived at.
CWM Has that all been taken account of by God at the cross, and dealt with there?
JTJr Yes, sin has been condemned in the flesh of Christ; it all has been finished there for the believer, according to verse 3 of chapter 8. And if that is so, who can raise any accusation? Who can condemn? If everything has been met by Christ having been made sin vicariously for us, how can anything be brought up against us? No one can substantiate a charge against us.
AR Do you think that is the idea in Numbers 21 [p. 340] where the death of Christ typically is brought forward in the brazen serpent? And then in chapter 22 you get a man coming forward to condemn the people of God. God saw no iniquity in His people. Balak wanted Balaam to condemn the people, but God gave him words to speak. Do you think that fits in here?
JTJr I think it does; the whole point in Balak’s approach with Balaam was to condemn the people, but Balaam had to say, “How shall I curse whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I denounce whom Jehovah doth not denounce?” Numbers 23: 8.
ANW Is not the rebuttal overwhelming in verse 33? The question is raised, “Who shall bring an accusation against God’s elect?” But the overwhelming answer is, “It is Christ who has died, but rather has been also raised up; who is also at the right hand of God; who also intercedes for us”. The glorious basis for His intercession in His own death and resurrection is an absolute rebuttal against any accusation that can come.
JTJr Yes. God justifies us and who can question God? “It is God who justifies: who is he that condemns?” chapter 8: 33. We find from Revelation that the accuser of the brethren is in heaven all the time, and he accuses them day and night. What is brought out in this chapter is that the believer cannot be condemned or accused; he is in the blessedness of all that has taken place in that Christ has gone to the right hand of God. Christ is up there at the right hand of God, all having been accomplished.
WFK Is it that no accusation can be brought against the elect? What is involved in election?
JTJr It refers to the saints as in God’s mind before the world was; but this chapter supposes that the believer has reached, experimentally, the position where he cannot be accused or condemned. It is not that we do not fail; that is not the point. Satan would [p. 341] accuse and condemn, but the saints are in a position that is unassailable.
AMacD Was it not a great encouragement to Joshua the high priest, when Satan was rebuked? Satan stood at his right hand to resist him, but the word came, “Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”, see Zechariah 3: 1 - 3.
JTJr Yes; the filthy garments were there, but God had put him in a position where he could not be condemned. As referred to already, Satan comes in through Balaam to condemn the people and to find fault with them and to curse them, but he could not do so. And we are to understand that; it helps us to be here more intelligently in the testimony.
EAL Is it not important to see that Balaam said that the people shall dwell alone and shall not be numbered with the nations?
JTJr Yes, and from that point of view God did not see any iniquity in Jacob. He was viewing the people according to His own counsels, although they sinned grievously in Numbers 24 and 25. So we are to understand how God would hinder people such as Balaam. He sought to curse the people but he could not.
RWS The people having sinned, the One “who also intercedes for us” was needed.
JTJr Well, quite so. The intercession of Christ is brought forward here; not to bring us to this position, for we are viewed as having arrived at it. The intercession of Christ is in view of what is against us. “Who shall separate us? ...” The priesthood of Christ and His advocacy are in mind in that verse. It is stated as if it were complimentary to His being raised up; “who is also at the right hand of God; who also intercedes for us”. He is there and He is interceding for us. Priesthood is brought forward to show us that we have One up there to restore us if we fail. However, the [p. 342] position reached in verse 1 of chapter 8 is a positive one where there is no condemnation and nothing can change it.
FHL It is God’s own matter; it is God who justifies.
ABP Would it be right to say that the reference to condemnation in the end of the chapter carries with it a greater fulness than in verse 1? Throughout the chapter there is the idea of place being given to the Spirit and walking according to Spirit.
JTJr The suggestion is that there is someone who would accuse, but where do such stand? What basis have they to accuse, or condemn? They have none.
ABP Verse 1 refers to those “in Christ Jesus”. But the chapter develops the subjective side, involving the power of the Spirit here in wilderness conditions.
JTJr I think what we have reached by being in Christ Jesus runs along with the Spirit’s operation in us.
ANW The second verse confirms that. It says, “the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death”. He speaks now personally, for himself.
JTJr If we walk according to the Spirit we will not allow the features of the flesh. The point, therefore, in the subjective side alluded to is that, as we act by the Spirit, we will be led in the way of righteousness; there will be no failure. I believe it is possible to be in a path where there will be no failure, because the Spirit is great enough to bring this about with us as we act by Him.
AR It says, in regard to Israel, when Balaam sought to curse the people, that they were by the Jordan, opposite to Jericho. Is the position there in view of the land?
JTJr No doubt. Life comes up immediately in chapter 21 of Numbers and it is coming up here in this section of Romans. It comes up in the chapters preceding [p. 343] this. The trend, therefore, of our minds should be toward what we speak of as the land. It is the assembly, really, and this involves heavenly ground.
CAM I think that the reference to verse 1 is good. There is a status that nothing can change. It is in regard to those in Christ Jesus. No one could change that position any more than change the position when the Lord was standing on resurrection ground. No Pharisee or anyone else could come near Him. The status was immune from attack and no one could alter it.
JTJr Yes; the end of the chapter, therefore, brings us to the climax of that. The enemy would bring up questions in order that he might disturb the believer because of failure. He would try to overwhelm persons because of failure, so that they might think themselves to be lost.
FNW Would the singing in Numbers 21 link on with verse 31: “What shall we then say to these things?” Is it contemplated that we have reached a state in our own souls whereby we can say something as to the ground that has been covered thus far?
JTJr Yes, and that stays with us as a fixed matter, no matter what may transpire in our lives. I do not mean to say that we are to be loose and give place to the flesh. But we are to know how we are constituted and that what comes in by the way in our failures cannot change the position reached through the work of Christ. There is a difference between status and actual moral state. The status, therefore, is in mind in the first verse of the chapter, and it is again alluded to in verses 31 to 39.
ANW The status, as you say, is in verse 1, and the actual experimental state is in verse 2. The apostle can now speak for himself, “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and of death”. Is that not state, by the power of the Spirit?
JTJr Therefore, the word ‘if’ comes up frequently in the chapter. For example, “but if Christ be in you ...” in verse 10, and then in verse 11, “But if the Spirit of him ...” It is a question of whether or not a thing is so, and if so, then there are certain consequences. Our state may discourage us. What we actually find in ourselves may be used by the enemy to condemn us. He is sure to condemn us if we fail, and attempt to overwhelm us with what we have done.
TNW The accuser of the brethren in Revelation 12 has been referred to. That is followed by the statement: “they have overcome him by reason of the blood of the Lamb”, Revelation 12: 11.
JTJr Quite so; while he is up there he accuses; but then he is to be cast out to make way for the saints. He cannot be up there when the assembly goes into heaven. And we need to be marked by overcoming now.
EAL Would you say that the righteous requirements of the law were fully carried out only by the Lord Jesus? It says in John’s gospel that the law was given by Moses but grace and truth subsists through Jesus Christ.
JTJr Well, quite so; but then there is the possibility that we can fulfil its requirements, too. The righteous requirement of the law is to be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to flesh but according to Spirit. That is possible. Moral state has been alluded to and that depends upon place being given to the Spirit. Right moral state is the urgent matter of the moment.
RWS I suppose the most exercised or downcast christian could not ask deeper or more basic questions than these: “Who shall bring an accusation?” “Who is he that condemns?” “Who shall separate us?” If these matters are answered is there not victory?
JTJr Quite so; there is no doubt at all but [p. 345] that God foresaw the line that the enemy would take of bringing in accusations, and condemnation, and discouragement of the saints by their misconduct. Whatever misconduct there is must be taken account of, of course, but nothing can change this position of God’s elect. No one can question it, because of what Christ has done.
AR In the section from verse 35 onward we have both the love of Christ and the love of God referred to: “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?” verse 35, and then, that nothing “shall be able to separate us from the love of God”, verse 39. Having full regard for what is abstract, there must be something in the saints that is lovable.
JTJr That would be in line with what we have been saying as to the practical side. If we are walking by the Spirit and acting by the Spirit there will be the evidence of life operating in us, and life expressed in us would show itself in our love for divine Persons and for one another.
CFE Say a little more about, “Who shall bring an accusation against God’s elect?” I was thinking of Paul, who was said to be an elect vessel, and Peter, who speaks about the elect.
JTJr That is to be taken account of. Peter’s status could not be changed. He was in Christ Jesus, but having failed he required the Lord’s intercession and recovering power. The Lord said, “I have prayed for thee”. When we fail we require the service of the priesthood of Christ and of His advocacy. That is what Peter needed; and Paul was used to help him later along the line of getting back to the ground he lost. We need to have a judgment of that in which we have failed and come back to what is right. Therefore, the position of the elect is in accord with divine righteousness. We must be consistent with the truth.
WP Is the principle of what you are saying seen [p. 346] figuratively in the woman in John 8? The Lord refused to condemn her. He said, Go and sin no more.
JTJr The Lord had His own death in mind. He could say to the woman, “Neither do I condemn thee”. She was taken in the very act. She was guilty. But He stooped down and wrote on the ground. His enemies were trying to get at Him. They said that Moses had said certain things, but what would He say? The Lord could say, “Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more”. It was in the light of His own death, which, I think, the stoop would involve, that He could say that.
DP Did Jonah have difficulty in seeing this line of truth when the burden of his preaching was set aside by God acting in sovereign mercy to the Ninevites?
JTJr You mean that the judgment was not carried through? God can act as He will. He cannot be questioned. It says, in chapter 9, “O man, who art thou that answerest again to God?” verse 20. Who can judge God when He has acted in mercy, instead of judgment? Who has a right to question God as Jonah did? How can we question what God does? That is the theme of chapter 9.
WAT Would it not seem from this eighth chapter that there are difficulties to be faced by the saints, but in that connection they have the love of Christ? But in verses 38 and 39 death, life, angels, principalities, etc., are alluded to, and in that connection we have the love of God. So that in all these matters we have, on our side, that which would make us conquerors.
JTJr Yes; the word separate is used. We cannot be separated; the believer’s position is immutably fixed, according to this chapter.
ANW Would you say a word about what brings the believer to a persuasion. He says, “I am persuaded”, verse 38. It is not merely abstract. What leads up to [p. 347] that persuasion?
JTJr Well, I think it all hinges on our apprehension of what Christ has done, that His work has become effectual. The verse that stands out in chapter 8, I would say, is, “God, having sent his own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement”, etc. I think that the experimental understanding of that verse leads us on to the position where we know that nothing can separate us, and no one can condemn us or accuse us. So far as our position before God is concerned, nothing can change that.
ABP Would the Lord’s dealings with Peter, in John 21, set aside all doubts and fears, and bring the active power of the love of Christ into his soul? Is that not an outstanding example of these things being worked out?
JTJr I am sure it is; and the thought of tribulation, distress, and persecution has been mentioned. We might question the discipline of God. His discipline may be rolled in upon us, and we might question it. Satan would use it to overwhelm us. So that we require to be formed in our souls in this fixed position which rests on the finished work of Christ. It is not only in the fact that He is raised, but He is also at the right hand of God. The matter is carried through now to where He is.
ABP “We more than conquer through him that has loved us”, verse 37. That is more than the eternal fixity of our position, is it not? It is the present victorious position of the believer.
JTJr Quite so. It is “through him that has loved us” that we more than conquer. Therefore it is to get the help and gain out of tribulation or distress, for these are things we all know about, and when they occur it is the hand of love that has done it. It is, “whom the Lord loves he chastens, and scourges every son whom he receives. Ye endure for chastening, God conducts himself towards you as towards sons”, Hebrews 12: 6.
[p. 348] It is how God does it; what He has in mind in the discipline. We may have our own thoughts as to why the discipline has come, but what is in the Father’s mind about it? Whatever happens, nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. That is the position we need to have firmly in our minds in regard to all the ways of God with us. They work together for good.
AR Do features of the new man come to light in Romans 8? Our sinful condition has been condemned in the flesh of Christ. It says that the body is dead on account of sin, but the Spirit life on account of righteousness. I was wondering if it is now the movements of a living person.
JTJr Well, I think so; and, of course, the way the matter is presented shows the trend of the apostle’s own mind. This should help us because he speaks of personal experience. In the next chapter we see his feelings in regard to God’s discipline of Israel. This had a great effect upon Paul. It is how he felt for his own people Israel who, for the moment, are cast off. If we follow the trend of Paul’s mind we shall reach the unsearchable judgments of God, and His untraceable ways. The apostle would lead us on to that in the following chapters.
AR You just wonder how the apostle could speak of being a curse from the Christ for his brethren according to flesh.
JTJr He says, “I have wished, I myself, to be a curse”. It was not his present wish in that sense. It was not then current in his mind; it had been; and he knew what a curse meant. We have the word, “Cursed is every one hanged upon a tree”.
ANW He seems to have had a kind of mediatorial feeling like Moses had. It would seem to be a sort of reflection of what was in the Lord Himself.
JTJr We get the deep feelings of Paul coming out [p. 349] here; which, I think, should help us in our own feelings. He had uninterrupted pain as to this matter. But then, what about our own matters? What about our own feelings as to persons under discipline?
TEH He says that he has grief, too. Is there progression in connection with the feelings he had? He speaks of the curse as something that had passed from his mind, but the grief and the pain seem to be present things.
JTJr He says, “I have great grief and uninterrupted pain in my heart”. Grief and uninterrupted pain were present with him as to his kinsmen, which brings out how near he was to the Lord in his thoughts in regard to what was so precious to God; that is, His earthly people. It involved his own earthly links also, and it came very close to him. We have our own experiences and we may say, too, that we have grief and pain as to certain matters of sorrow that have come up amongst us.
WAT And in that connection he says that his conscience bears witness with him in the Holy Spirit, showing that those feelings would be right feelings as governed by the Holy Spirit. He was not on party lines or allowing mere nature to dominate his feelings.
JTJr Quite so.
RWS The character of his feelings is seen in 2 Corinthians 11: 29, “Who is weak, and I am not weak? Who is stumbled, and I burn not?” He is a model for us, I suppose, in feeling for those who have lost their way.
JTJr He says in the next chapter that Israel had zeal but not according to God. So it is with some who once walked with us. They have had zeal, but not according to God, and the trend of their minds has been in the wrong direction. We should feel all these things.
WFK The apostle went first to the synagogue [p. 350] when visiting a place with the glad tidings. He would express Christ’s love to Israel, would he not?
JTJr Yes, his feelings came out that way in the Acts.
WFK He would be faithful to them and show that access to God was only through Christ, by the Spirit.
JTJr Quite so; it brings out the fact that God was acting sovereignly in His governmental dealings with Israel, and He cannot be judged. God cannot be questioned as to what He is doing. Chapter 9: 12 says, “The greater shall serve the less”. That is a matter of God’s sovereign rights and these cannot be questioned. And so also, “to whom he will he shews mercy, and whom he will he hardens”. He raised up Pharaoh and hardened him. God’s judgment came on Pharaoh. He hardened him in order that He might show in him His power. God’s judgments came out in Egypt in the plagues and then Pharaoh was finally judged in the Red Sea. The judgment of God cannot be questioned in these things.
WFK He is sovereign in mercy: “I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy”.
JTJr Yes and “it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shews mercy”.
WFK The apostle said of himself, “I obtained mercy”, as if he appreciated mercy.
CAM It is a remarkable thing how God’s ways are stressed in these three chapters. It is a wonderful thing to take account of the fact that God orders all things so that they affect us in our experiences. Nothing that comes in can be outside of the control of God; so that, in His ways with us, nothing can disturb this settled and eternal blessing.
JTJr I am sure that is right; therefore Paul speaks of the untraceableness of His ways. His ways with us and amongst us may be very difficult for us to understand.
[p. 351] We may not understand them, but as we get close to Him, and Paul here would bring us close to Him, we begin to see what is in His mind, and how it all finishes up with what is of Him, and through Him, and for Him at the end of chapter 11. Then there is the principle of hardening, for some persons that are under discipline get hardened. The priesthood of Christ is always available, but even though not availed of by persons who may be becoming hardened and are persisting in a course that would lead them out of fellowship, and keep them out, the Lord is still serving them as a Priest. I think that is a thing for us to remember, that no matter how long recovery may take, the Lord is still carrying on His service of intercession.
DP The disparity that we find in the world, which raises so many issues, can only be settled in the soul by bowing to the sovereignty of God.
JTJr That is what comes out here; we are to accept the sovereign action of God; it cannot be questioned. Who is going to judge Him? So it says in verse 19, “Thou wilt say to me then, Why does he yet find fault? for who resists his purpose?” Man would try to judge God, but man is to be judged, not God.
ES Peter had learned not to question God’s sovereign movements. He says, “who indeed was I to be able to forbid God?” Acts 11: 17.
ABP The apostle must have been very strong in his feelings to have wished himself a curse from the Christ. Do you not think that was when the unbelief of Israel was still a mystery to him, as he says: “... this mystery”, chapter 11: 25? Would it not seem that light came into his soul, and he gives us the very scriptures here that helped him? But when he saw clearly what God’s mind is, he burst into doxology, chapter 11: 33.
JTJr Yes, there is also a doxology in chapter 9: 5: “... the Christ, who is over all, God blessed for ever,
Amen”. He is filled with this great Person, and who He is, God over all. And then there is the other to which you allude. Paul, deeply affected by the inscrutable ways of God, bursts forth in worship to God.
FHL The solemn thing is, the Jews had the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, etc., and yet governmental blindness came upon them. Cases of persons who are under discipline, of whom you were speaking, have all the advantages of the present system of grace to help them and yet blindness comes over some of them and the light becomes darkness. How great it becomes!
JTJr Yes; therefore our own feelings should be with grief and pain as to them and interceding for them. We should not give up that service.
TEH In the book of Ruth we get the recovery of Israel, in type, I suppose. Naomi said that Jehovah had brought her low, and the Almighty had afflicted her. But at the end, Obed (Worshipper) is in her bosom and she is nurse to him. She really now has reached a worshipful spirit. Is this reached in Paul’s soul?
JTJr I think so; as light comes in and broadens in him, we have this doxology. And I suppose it should be so with us all. The wisdom and knowledge of God and His marvellous ways should bring us all to worship Him. That is another end reached following the position reached in chapter 8. We reach a position that cannot be changed; no one can change it. No matter what I do (and I am not saying that we should be loose) no matter what we might fail in, nothing can alter that position, if it is true of the believer. The chapter shows that the love of Christ has affected us, and the more sensitive we are the more quickly we shall overcome as we are in touch with the Priest. He will restore us to God. That is the service of Christ in this connection. He restores us to God, and to the Father. That is the priesthood of Christ, whose advocacy [p. 353] restores us to God, who restores us to communion with the Father when we have failed.
AR Why is it that so few who have been withdrawn from have been recovered?
JTJr Well, many things enter into that. Of course there is the mystery side of it too. There is mystery in these things. There is mystery in connection with Israel, Romans 11: 25. Why was it? But Israel went this way and was cut off. Who knows what is going on in persons? It is mysterious, so that we have to leave certain persons with God. They may die out of fellowship, and that is most solemn, but on the other hand, many have been recovered and we rejoice in this.
TNW How do you understand the passage: “And so all Israel shall be saved”?
JTJr Paul is speaking of the counsel of God’s will; the elect shall be saved, and Israel will be complete. They are not saved through the gospel, but they are the elect. “As regards the glad tidings, they are enemies on your account; but as regards election, beloved on account of the fathers”, Romans 11: 28. Their election goes through, and they shall be saved. God shuts up all in unbelief that He might have mercy upon all. And so we see God coming out in His marvellous ways, so that Paul says, “O depth of riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable his judgments and untraceable his ways! For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor?” Who could question Him; who could be His counsellor? God is carrying His own plans through here, and the more we see them coming into fruition, the more we see that it is His wisdom and knowledge.
CWM What would you say of verses 22 and 23? Are Israel and the assembly in the apostle’s mind?
JTJr There are the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction and God’s long-suffering comes out in regard to them. “And if God, minded to shew his wrath and [p. 354] to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted for destruction ...” We can see that working out in what happened to Egypt. The Egyptian host was all destroyed in the Red Sea; God’s judgment came out there. They were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. And then it came out prior to that at Sodom and Gomorrah. So that it says, in verse 29, “Unless the Lord of Hosts had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and made like even as Gomorrah”. That is, they were vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, and they were destroyed. God’s judgment came on them. But then, at the same time, vessels of glory were being prepared. It was Abraham and the line of faith. And then, in Egypt, God was preparing the children of Israel. They were being prepared for glory, in the typical sense. God said, “Let my son go, that he may serve me”, Exodus 4: 23. God was about to bring them into His land, as Moses said in the song in Exodus 15: 17. So now the saints are the vessels of mercy whom God is preparing for glory.
RWS The verse reads, “... which he had before prepared for glory”. It reminds us of the word in Genesis which speaks of the shrubs before they were in the earth. This leads up to worship; there is such mystery and such inscrutableness in that God has prepared certain vessels for glory.
ANW And should we not note that verse 22 is impersonal? The apostle is impersonal when it is a matter of vessels of wrath fitted for destruction. I suppose the vessels fit themselves, in that sense. But when it is a matter of vessels of mercy, it says that He had before prepared for glory; that is, He has done it Himself. We could hardly say that God fitted vessels for destruction.
JTJr So that I think we can see the force of it at the time of the flood. There were those upon whom [p. 355] the wrath came. Noah and his family would be vessels of mercy. And then, at Sodom and Gomorrah, the judicial action of God was upon vessels of wrath. And then, later, the Egyptians were destroyed. Pharaoh was raised up by God and hardened by Him. God hardened him, in order that He might show forth His power in him. “For this very cause have I raised thee up”. And again, “So then ... whom he will he hardens”.
AR Do you think that those who are preserved and brought into the millennium will be vessels of mercy?
JTJr Well; they would be. He shuts up all in unbelief that he might have mercy upon all.
AR And so, chapter 11: 31 says, “so these also have now not believed in your mercy, in order that they also may be objects of mercy”. They will come in on the basis of mercy, as we do.
JTJr It is important to see as to the vessels fitted for destruction, that first of all God’s long-suffering was toward them. God endured them with much longsuffering. It was so at the time Noah preached, for the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, we are told. But then, those vessels displayed the fact that they were rebellious and fitted for wrath; they displayed it. Then again at Sodom, they displayed their corrupted condition. They were fitted for destruction. And so it is at the present time, there are persons who are fitting themselves for destruction.
FNW In all those periods there were those who were sympathetic with God in what He was doing. So at the present time we should be feeling things in the same way.
JTJr Quite so; we are vessels of mercy. Therefore, it is a very suggestive thought, because our very bodies, in which we move, are the subjects of mercy; and I would say that God is very merciful with us in regard to [p. 356] our vessels.
FNW Would the acceptance of the ways of God in our personal histories, in the earlier chapters of this book, pave the way for the broader aspects of His ways as set out in these chapters? Would that help us to get what is in His mind as to these great matters?
JTJr I think so; we see how God deals with sin and we say that God is acting rightly. Some may question God as to His ways, with respect to all these terrible things that happen, but God cannot be judged of any.
AR Abraham said, “Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?” Genesis 18: 25.
JTJr Exactly, the Judge does what is right.
AR God had said of Abraham, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am doing?” I suppose believers are brought into God’s secrets.
JTJr These chapters are on that line and as we come alongside of God as Abraham was, we begin to see how everything shall end according to His mind. Paul speaks of the goodness and the severity of God. It is His goodness first, and then His severity.
AR There is nothing tests one more than to understand God’s government. There is always something mysterious about it, do you not think? The apostle says, “how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!” I suppose to be in the secret of what we are talking about would involve being a friend of God?
JTJr That is good. Abraham was called a friend of God and he is brought into this book in chapter 4.
FHL I believe that Genesis 18: 25 is the first mention of the word ‘judge’ in Scripture. The thought carries right on to our scripture, as you were saying.
JTJr Yes, and it was used at the time when the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah was imminent.
AAT It is said, “how unsearchable his judgments, and untraceable his ways!” [p. 357] You would not say His counsels were unsearchable, or past finding out, would you?
JTJr I think this refers to the way God is working things out, the way He is working out His counsels. There can be no change in His counsels. The working out of His ways involves mystery. I think that the ‘friend of God’ comes into the current of what God is doing, and sees what He is doing.
ANW So that whatever we do not understand or cannot trace, we can nevertheless say, “of him, and through him, and for him are all things: to him be glory for ever. Amen”. It provokes doxology in the soul.
JTJr Quite so. At the end of chapter 8 there is a position reached where, you might say, there is an answer in doxology to the exercise in our own souls; but at the end of this section, in chapter 11, we begin to understand God’s public ways and His ways with His earthly people, and we find that they are all in perfect wisdom and knowledge and that produces worship.
AR Do you think that we often lack power with God and do not detain Him? Abraham detained God. He stopped and talked with Abraham.
JTJr The goodness and severity of God were present there, goodness in regard of Abraham and even toward Lot, and severity on Lot’s wife and the Sodomites.
ANW It says, ‘Behold’ it. I am sure we need to do that: “Behold then the goodness and severity of God”, verse 22.
JTJr It is as if you stand still and see what is going on. The severity comes out here with regard to God’s earthly people, but then, we bring it closer to ourselves, and we see that there are judgments amongst us, and we stand still and take account of this.
WAT The passage says, “... upon thee goodness of God”, but it adds a very searching statement: “... if thou shalt abide in goodness, since otherwise thou also wilt be cut away”.
ABP The word has great importance today, inasmuch as we are nearing the time when the gentiles will be cut off because of unbelief. Should there not be an increasing exercise with us that there should be an apparent difference between those who believe and those who are about to be cut off because of unbelief?
JTJr Therefore, the believer ought to have a sober, reverential attitude toward God. This is so lacking in the world amongst men. There is so little reverence toward God whose wonderful ways have been made known to us. They should inspire reverence as with the apostle.
DP Do you think, then, that we should never ask God, Why, when we come under discipline?
JTJr Well, it is good to ask as we get into the presence of God and really desire to have the right answer. I think it is right to ask, in regard to His discipline, for example, in order to find out what is in His mind. Apparently Israel’s position is mystery, but the apostle would not have the saints ignorant as to it, according to verse 25, and we should find the answer to what is happening by getting to God and learning what he is saying to us.
ABP Rebecca inquired of Jehovah in Genesis 25: 22 and Jehovah answered her.
JTJr Yes; so there is an answer. If there is severity, why is it? The Lord’s voice is in it, and we should hear His voice.
CAM The answer to every question, however deep or wonderful it may be, is bound eventually to reach the greatness of Christ, and the glory of Christ.
JTJr Quite so, it is good to take account of the greatness of Christ in His service on high. He is at the right hand of God, and He is making intercession. He [p. 359] is interceding in regard to these very things about which we are speaking. If the discipline of God comes in, the priesthood of Christ enables us to get to God and find the answer.
FHL The Lord himself asks the question when he entered into the judgment. Marvellous fact!
JTJr Quite so. He asks, “Why hast thou forsaken me?”
TNW Should we not be slow in saying why it is in regard to others who are under discipline?
JTJr We should be very slow to do that. We need to be very careful in what we say about discipline which others are going through. It is mystery; God is acting in regard to persons He loves. Those habitually near the Lord are a safe guide in matters of this kind. They know.
WFK The severity of God would always be right.
WTP Are the discipline, and the answers to it, a part of the preparation for glory?
JTJr It would work that way. We can take account of certain things which have occurred in our lives and we find that the priesthood of Christ has helped us to get to God about them. As before God, we get the answer; and as taking it from the Lord, we get built up in our souls.
AR So that the only thing that goes through, whatever the dispensation may be, is the work of God. All the way down from the beginning, and in our own day, and in the millennium, it will all be what God has done. “What hath God wrought!”
RWS There is a remarkable verse in Psalm 69 where it says, “They persecute him whom thou hast smitten, and they talk for the sorrow of those whom thou hast wounded”, verse 26. If we cannot know all the answers as to why God has certain persons under discipline, we should not talk for the sorrow of those whom God [p. 360] has wounded.
GBL Psalm 51 is referred to in this chapter: “That thou mayest be justified when thou speakest, be clear when thou judgest”, verse 4. After that, David referred to the whole burnt-offering.
JTJr Yes, that was in regard to himself. He had found the answer. He got to God about his sin and the priesthood of Christ was there in a typical sense. He was able to offer up a whole burnt-offering. He understood why the discipline had come in.
FNW Paul says in Ephesians 1: “marked out beforehand according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his own will”, verse 11. Do you think that, if we were more established in the great truth of God’s predestination, we would be strengthened to go through the details of God’s ways?
JTJr Yes. Paul finishes here with, “who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor? or who has first given to him, and it shall be rendered to him?” He is directing us to God in this way. God cannot be questioned; we do not question the discipline in the way of judging God. We find that His ways are all perfect.