JUDGMENT (4)
[p. 315] JUDGMENT (4)
Romans 7: 1 - 25; Romans 8: 1 - 3
JTJr Romans 7 is an outstanding chapter in Scripture and one to which we constantly refer. No doubt it has been so throughout the period of Christianity. It is a well-known scripture, but it may be true that few of us have come through it in actual experience. From verse 7 what goes on inside of the Christian is alluded to. Sin and death have been before us in chapters 5 and 6, as having dominion and reigning; death being the wages of sin. Now it is a question of sin in persons as an operative principle and working death by the commandment.
AR Does Romans 7 bring out that we are carrying about with us a dead body? Paul says, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of this body of death?”
JTJr It is the experience of the one speaking, and he comes to that judgment. Our subject is judgment. This chapter shows how we arrive at decisions through experience. It is not through teaching here, but through experience. It says, in chapter 6, that they had obeyed from the heart the form of teaching. That alludes to the doctrine. But this chapter, from verse 7, is taken up with what is going on inside persons. It is not a question, therefore, of doctrine, but of decisions reached through a process. The doctrine must be known, but this, in itself, will not bring about deliverance.
AR We discover what is going on in us?
JTJr In one sense it is going on all the time. It is an inward matter, and as remarked before, it is a question of how many of us are out of the mixed conditions that are referred to from verse 7 onward.
JAP Do we go through this experience before we get the Spirit, or afterwards?
JTJr [p. 316] Neither Christ nor the Spirit are mentioned from verse 7 to verse 24, but no doubt most go through it after receiving the Spirit, and yet He is not viewed as active in the believer until chapter 8. In chapter 5 He is viewed as on God’s side, shedding His love abroad in our hearts. We need to get through the dark experience of this chapter and it requires power to do it. It has been likened to a dark tunnel at the end of which there is light, and that light is Christ, so that the end of the chapter says, “I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord”. Deliverance is through Him, but it is arrived at inwardly. It is a question, therefore, of the experience that the brethren have had, and what they can say as to this chapter.
CAM Verse 5 says, “For when we were in the flesh ...”. As you were saying, it is a constant matter; yet, we are enabled by divine power to take account of things as past, as far as what is characteristic of the christian as in the flesh is concerned.
JTJr The first six verses allude to the matter in an objective way. The figure of the marital bond between man and woman is used to illustrate how the law had power over us, but that this power has been broken by the death of Christ. The woman was bound by law to her husband as long as he lived; but if the husband should die she is clear from the law of her husband. And then, “So that, my brethren, ye also have been made dead to the law by the body of the Christ, to be to another, who has been raised up from among the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. For when we were in the flesh the passions of sins, which were by the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit to death; but now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held, so that we should serve in newness of spirit”. The matter is finished. We are no longer held in bondage, but we are to be to another. The remainder of the [p. 317] chapter involves what goes on in the believer until he identifies himself with the Spirit.
CAM I suppose it would be right to say that what is characteristic of a christian is set out in the first six verses. You draw attention to a division in the chapter at verse 7. From that point on we have this remarkable experience in order to reach the position of having the Spirit.
JTJr Yes, so that it is like 1 Corinthians 5: “according as ye are unleavened”. They were regarded as unleavened, and yet he exhorts them to “purge out the old leaven”. So that what we have here corresponds in that way. It should be characteristic of us that we are bearing fruit to God and serving in newness of spirit. But the actual inward condition is elaborated on, and given in great detail. We have, thus, the actual experience of the person who discovers that, while he wants to do what is right, he does not have power to do it.
CAM Rebecca knew something of these inward exercises, for there were two different elements working in her and she needed divine help in order to understand what was taking place. Esau and Jacob struggled within her. There were these two active principles, in type, I suppose, and she turned to God about it, and she got the divine answer.
WWM Would you say that the point here is ‘sin’, not ‘sins’; it is not the things which we have done that are in prominence but what we are. David, in Psalm 51, said, “in sin did my mother conceive me”; he understood what he was.
JTJr I think that is a good distinction. It is sin in the flesh. What has been remarked about Rebecca’s exercise as to the struggle is helpful in regard to what is before us. It is what goes on in persons. This chapter is a landmark in christian experience, and it is alluded to by the saints continually. The struggle goes [p. 318] on in some and they are overcome by the lust in them and the devil gets an advantage. The young people need to be watched and protected. Prayer is our resource in this matter to deliver us from the evil workings of the flesh.
WAT Would you say that the experience that the Israelites had to go through in the wilderness, culminating in the serpent being lifted up, is on this line?
JTJr I think that would correspond. The waywardness of the children of Israel, particularly their history of murmuring and rebellion, reached a climax at the brazen serpent. They had murmured, but they got deliverance through looking. They looked and lived. I suppose the poison that came into the system of man through the serpent is sin in the flesh. The remedy was there, typically, in Numbers 21, in the brazen serpent, but in chapter 24 the people began to commit fornication. Instead of looking to the Lord, many, to their sorrow and shame, have followed their lust and fallen into sin, and brought reproach on the Lord’s name, and the testimony.
AI Do you think divine teaching would help us in this inward experience?
JTJr Yes; it is a question of how the thing is met inwardly and how we get through. How many of us get through and are really out of this body of death with all the marks of sin gone? It involves the complete deliverance from the man after the flesh. “Now we are clear from the law, having died in that in which we were held”. That means that what was holding us is broken. “Therefore, we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in oldness of letter”. I think newness of spirit involves what is seen in the persons in a characteristic way.
WFK The energy seen in the princes digging denoted the progress that had been made. In like [p. 319] manner we should empty ourselves and make room for the Spirit and thus progress would be manifest.
JTJr The thought of progress is a good one to bring up. Why are we slow to make progress? The flesh is the same as it was before we were converted. The flesh in the children of Israel was the same as the Egyptian flesh. There is no difference, for all have sinned, and what came out in them in the wilderness, therefore, was the fruit of the flesh. So that Romans 7 is what the flesh is; sin in us is active through the flesh. The flesh is against God and we are to come to that judgment of it. Life is in mind in Numbers 21, and it is so here. As Christ becomes our object we begin to live.
GP How do you view 1 John 5: 18 in the light of Romans 7? It reads, “We know that every one begotten of God does not sin, but he that has been begotten of God keeps himself”.
JTJr That refers to another line of truth, but it must run with this; that is, that he that is born of God does not sin. How does that agree with what is stated, “the sin that dwells in me”? It is the condition we are in in flesh and blood that is alluded to in Romans 7: 18, whereas the quotation from 1 John refers to the work of God in us, which cannot sin, because it is of God. It is needful for us to hold on to this side of the truth and at the same time to soberly understand that sin is in our flesh.
WFK Were both sin and the flesh dealt with at the cross? Is that the meaning of the serpent lifted up?
JTJr Chapter 8 brings out that the Lord Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, and that is the whole point in the serpent being lifted up. The Lord came in the likeness of sinful flesh. His flesh was not like ours; there was no sin in it; it was holy. “The Word became flesh”. God was manifest in the flesh. The meaning of the serpent being lifted up is [p. 320] that Christ has come in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin and has been made sin. God condemned sin in the flesh in Christ lifted up. He was made sin; that is, in His flesh He took on vicariously what we are constitutionally. Sin in the flesh is in us constitutionally.
DP Would Leviticus 12 bear on Romans 7? I refer to the prolonged uncleanness which followed childbirth.
JTJr That chapter refers to the corrupt nature of man, birth bringing about uncleanness, the female requiring double the time of the male for cleansing. This would suggest that subjective cleansing requires a longer time than the objective apprehension of it. Romans 7 requires time to work out, but we should not remain there. We should arrive at the point of being clear of the operative principle of sin. We need to be cleansed from every pollution of flesh and spirit and to perfect holiness in God’s fear.
CAM Is it right to say that we are being educated in the use of our minds in this scripture?
JTJr The great need is that we should be able to control our minds rather than having our minds control us.
CAM So that the subject of judgment, which we are considering, would include the ability of our minds to judge according to the truth of this chapter.
JTJr Quite so; therefore the apostle comes to the law which, of course, would bring in the mind to understand what is in the law. The believer comes to the conclusion that the law is holy, and just, and good. But what did it bring? The commandment, which should have brought about life, brought about death to me. Instead of bringing me into life, it brought me into death, because sin, by it, found a point of attack. It is a question, therefore, of the devil getting in. He is not mentioned in this chapter, but it is the operation of the devil that brings about the point of attack. So that, in verse 10, “the commandment, which was for life, was found, as to me, itself to be unto death: for sin, getting a point of attack by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me”. The commandment was for life, but I was slain because of lust. That is the point that is brought out here. That part of the law which says, “Thou shalt not lust” is referred to. It is an impossible thing for us, in our natural condition, not to lust.
FHL The mind of the flesh is death.
JTJr The mind, therefore, identifying itself with the flesh, leads to death.
AR I suppose we all have to face the fact that we lust. Lust is working in our members.
JTJr So the apostle comes to the point that he was deceived. He was brought up under the law. He thought he was keeping the law: “as to righteousness which is in the law, found blameless”. But he tells us here that he was deceived by sin, because when he came to this commandment he could not keep it. It was impossible for him to keep it. So that he was slain because he could not keep the law — and that is what we need to reach — the point of view of the apostle as he arrives at this commandment which says, “Thou shalt not lust”. The younger brethren, especially, should be concerned about the working of lust. One great range of the devil’s power is in lust.
AR So that not one of us can keep the law.
JTJr Not on this line, but the righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but according to the Spirit.
JAP James says that everyone of us is tempted, drawn away and enticed by his own lust, then lust having conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin fully completed brings forth death.
JTJr That is what happened here; that is, lust brought forth death. He was overcome. The point,
[p. 322] therefore, for us, is what goes on in our souls now; what is our experience in regard to these things? It brings out where we are in regard to the truth; how far we have become clear as to what is going on in the flesh.
AI The apostle speaks in Galatians of the flesh warring against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh. Does that compare with what we are considering here?
JTJr Warfare is in mind there. The flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh. The Spirit is against the flesh. That is involved in the truth arrived at in chapter 8. The Spirit has come in on our side against the flesh, thus giving us power over it. But in Galatians 5: 17 the flesh is rising up at all times and in all matters to keep us in bondage.
EAL The Lord said, in the prayer He taught His disciples, “lead us not into temptation”. Would that be the right attitude of mind if we are to overcome?
JTJr Yes; prayer is essential if we are to be preserved. The Lord said, “pray that ye enter not into temptation”, Luke 22: 46. David says, “Preserve me, O God, for I trust in thee”, Psalm 16: 1. How are we to get through, without bringing God in? We cannot overcome the flesh through our own power. It is by bringing God in that we get through.
EAL In Matthew 4, when the Lord was tempted of the devil, the enemy was referred to as ‘the tempter’.
JTJr Yes, he is called the devil throughout, except in the last temptation, where the Lord says, “Get thee away. Satan”, and I think the point is that it is a question of evil. The title devil alludes to evil; and the devil is bent on bringing us into evil. He will lead us into it, tempting us and overpowering us. The Lord, in that chapter, showed that the devil had nothing in Him. He was alone with the devil, but the devil had [p. 323] nothing in Him at all. He met him with the word of God.
GP Joseph, in Potiphar’s house, had a judgment of the evil with which Potiphar’s wife tempted him.
JTJr That is a good scripture to bring in. It shows young people how to get the victory. We cannot stand against the temptation in our own strength. The devil is in it.
DP He says, “how should I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?”
JTJr Quite so; the devil was operating through the woman there, and that is what comes out in Proverbs in the strange woman, who is typical of the seductive system in the world, the theatres and cinemas and the like, through which the devil has such power. The devil was operating through the woman against Joseph to overpower him through lust. And Joseph fled, which is what each of us needs to do when tempted.
WWM The brazen serpent has been mentioned. The children of Israel were to look. The apostle says, “I thank God, through Jesus Christ our Lord”. He was looking at the Lord Jesus as having taken his place under judgment and bringing to an end the man that lusts.
JTJr Yes; each one of us has to feel the serpent’s bite. The operation of lust leaves an effect — the bite. But, as delivered, we need to be kept. We need to bring God in. We get control of our minds. There is power on our side to keep us occupied with right things.
WAT The Israelites were to look on the brazen serpent, lifted up, for relief. For us it is in the death of Christ, so that we can be set free from this principle of sin in the flesh.
JTJr That is what comes out in chapter 8. What is before us in this meeting is to arrive at that objective. We are to reach it that we are out of the body of death [p. 324] but to realise at the same time that this principle of lust is an operative one in our flesh and requires to be kept under control. As emptied out in Romans 7, we are ready to be filled with the Spirit in chapter 8. So that it is a question of what is going on in our minds. What principle is working? The working of lust is the dominating feature in the natural man, I would say.
ABP Did the apostle Paul experience the reality of Romans 7 in those three days in which he was blind and shut up to himself? Would the hatefulness of what he was tend to overwhelm him? And, in that sense, while the experience of Romans 7 is such a distressing one, it is wholesome and necessary for the believer to go through if he is to be really delivered.
JTJr Exactly, it is like Sihon and Og. If you do not overcome them, you are under their control. These features will come up in you. They will come up in the brethren. Sihon and Og represent the selfish “I” and the big “I” which is so self-complacent and self-contained. Very few get by these two mysterious persons.
CFE Romans 13: 14 says, “put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not take forethought for the flesh to fulfil its lusts”. Would that bear on this chapter?
JTJr It is a question there of the armour for the believer. It is the armour of light in the midst of the darkness of the world. We need it to get through all this sphere when the devil is operating, for, in a large measure, we have to do with the sphere of the devil’s operations, and he has made such inroads through lust. It is the main line that he uses in men and he has had success on this line, sorrowful as it is to admit it, in some localities of the saints.
EMcK John, in his first letter, warns the young men concerning the lust of the flesh.
JTJr Quite so, he speaks of all that is in the world being the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes,
[p. 325] and the pride of life. These are in the world. It is the sphere where the devil is, and he uses these things to overcome men. What has been remarked as to Joseph is very instructive, because the effort to overwhelm him was so persistent. Potiphar’s wife was determined to have Joseph, using every effort to persuade him. So that the spirit of our chapter was worked out in Joseph. He knew what to do. His mind was pure and his conduct irreproachable. He finally fled from her. He wanted to do what was right; and when we want to do what is right, we are making headway in Romans 7. But some may not have reached that far as yet.
CAM Joseph is particularly interesting in that regard as showing how he met the overtures of the devil through the woman. He had been entrusted with something by his master and he would not betray that trust.
JTJr Quite so; what was in his mind was the trust that was committed to him. He says, “Behold, my master takes cognisance of nothing with me: what is in the house, and all that he has, he has given into my hand. There is none greater in this house than I; neither has he withheld anything from me but thee, because thou art his wife; and how should I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?” Genesis 39: 8. This showed the great interest he had in his master’s business, and how faithful he was in it. How revolting it was to him to sin against his master and against God! The principle set out in Joseph helps us in this chapter.
ABP Would he be mindful of the word of God? Psalm 105 says, “the word of Jehovah tried him”. Was his attitude regulated by the word that had come to him through his dreams?
JTJr Quite so. I am sure that is helpful. He was dominated by the light he had from God. So that Pharaoh said of him, “a man in whom the Spirit of God is”. That is the kind of man that goes through. He was not overthrown.
[p. 326] AP-f Is it of importance to see that all sin is against God? David said, “Against thee, thee only, have I sinned”. And Joseph speaks about sinning against God.
JTJr Quite so; David was overcome by lust, but Joseph was not. David was given great trust, too, with the kingdom. But through his failure the greatness of God’s testimony was marred, which is a most solemn thing, and a most humbling thing. Nathan said, “Thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of Jehovah to blaspheme”, 2 Samuel 12: 14.
CMcL Would you say that typically Joseph was walking in the Spirit? “Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall no way fulfil flesh’s lust”, Galatians 5: 16.
JTJr Quite so, he had judged what was right and wrong. The man in our chapter judges what is right and wrong, too, and he wants to do what is right. I am progressing when I say that I want to do what is right. But when I find an opposite principle working in me I conclude that it is not the new ‘I’ at all; it is sin in my flesh.
WWM That is where David failed in contrast to Joseph. Evidently David had allowed his mind to get out of control, whereas Joseph’s mind was clear. Scripture says that the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace.
JTJr Yes. The mind of the flesh is death. That was the result of David’s sin with Bathsheba; the child died. It was the government of God. We may not know everything about one another, but God knows what is going on in our lives and moral death will be the result where a course of sin has been pursued.
EAL Would God, in mercy, affect David’s conscience through the death of the child?
JTJr I think David had been convicted before the child died. Death had to be gone through; it was the governmental side, and it had to be gone through.
[p. 327] He had been reached through the prophetic word; he had been convicted of what he had done. And that is really the thought in our meetings for ministry, that God brings in something to convict us and we reach the end in self-judgment. We should be as David. He went through the matter, and judged himself before God about the whole matter.
JAP It is said, in James, “Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for, having been proved, he shall receive the crown of life, which He has promised to them that love him”, chapter 1: 12. Joseph proved that.
JTJr Quite so, the crown of life, therefore, is the end of that line. We have the crown of righteousness also, but the crown of life lies at the end of a life that has withstood temptation. It alludes to what your life has been; what kind of a life you have lived. So the point here is that we are married to another; we are to be to Christ. Are we going to allow anything to interfere with that? Are we going to be true? Joseph was true to God, and to his master.
WAT Joseph has the interest of his master at heart, but, on the contrary, David stayed at home at the time of conflict. We are safer when we are actively engaged in the Lord’s things. None of us can afford to have time on our hands.
JTJr Well, quite so; Joseph’s mind was active in what was right, in the house where the temptation was.
ABP Does not the fleeing fit in with our present position? In 2 Timothy 2 we are exhorted to flee youthful lusts. Our position is one of outward reproach, really; we should not be afraid to flee.
JTJr Well, I am sure that is right. We are to pray that we be not led into temptation. The Lord, in Matthew 4, was carried up into the wilderness by the Spirit to be tempted of the devil. It is not that we seek out the temptation; the Lord did not seek it out.
[p. 328] In Mark he was driven into the wilderness, and in Luke He was led in the wilderness. The Lord would not seek it out. Neither should we seek to come into circumstances where the devil can overpower us. It should be our prayer that we be kept out of places and circumstances where it would be an advantage for the devil to get at us.
AR In Luke the Lord was led by the Spirit in the wilderness, as you have remarked, showing how His blessed movements were all in the Spirit.
JTJr Yes, quite so. Luke shows us the priestly side. Jesus was led by the Spirit in the wilderness forty days; it shows how He was led through it, which should be a great help to us, to see how we should get through. It is a question of who is working for us to lead us to Christ — to the One who is our Deliverer, but, as remarked, the believer is not viewed as acting by the Spirit until chapter 8.
AR So the secret is that if we walk in the Spirit we shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. We should all realise the importance of walking in the Spirit.
WFK Were the Corinthians walking in flesh and not in Spirit? The apostle brings in the cross of Christ, to adjust them, and to meet the unspiritual conditions that existed there.
JTJr The gross evil at Corinth was not being dealt with. The man’s conduct was scandalous. He was a lusting man, disregarding divine principles. The many sorrows of this character that are amongst us only emphasise that the general position is Corinthian.
CAM It is remarkable, as has been called to our attention, that Joseph fled. Do you not think that sometimes we do not think it is actually necessary to flee, and we stay, as it were, near the border line. Is it not well to see that if Scripture says to flee, it is a necessary thing?
JTJr Quite so, to stay on the border is dangerous.
[p. 329] That is a good way to put it. How many border-line cases there may be. Young people going out to their work and the like, get into circumstances where the devil has power. Where will we be in such circumstances? How shall we stand in them? So we are exhorted, “Pray that ye enter not into temptation”.
SW You were speaking of the thought of being married to another. I thought of the scripture, “... who has loved me and given himself for me”, Galatians 2: 20. If we respond to Christ’s love for us our affections would be in a right direction and our life would be bound up with Him, and we would be kept from idolatry.
JTJr I am sure we would. It came out in Joseph in the way he regarded his master, and again in Uriah who is another outstanding person in this matter. He was thinking of the ark, and, we might say, of the truth. He would not submit to the proposal of David who was not right at the time. He stands out in Scripture as a man who was completely superior to natural impulses and to lust, which found such expression in David at that time. What you quote helps here for the thought is that we should live, and Paul says, “but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me”, Galatians 2: 20.
SW Would you say, too, that we are likely to undervalue the position into which we have been brought? There is apt to be a lack of appreciation for it.
JTJr I think this chapter helps every person in regard to the truth, for by it we can trace what we are; whatever failure we make, we can trace it all back to this chapter.
FHL Jonah fled from Jehovah, but he had to go through the experience of death, great man that he was, before he got right. He says, “thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God”, Jonah 2: 6.
JTJr Quite so, it is much the same thing, only that [p. 330] with Jonah it was his will working. It was not lust working in him, but his will. Jonah was a wilful man at the beginning, and even after he got right he got angry when things did not go as he thought they should. That is of the flesh. All its varied forms are here in this chapter. Jonah got angry, as remarked, and he was a preacher, too. He defended himself, but Jehovah had the last word, which would probably indicate that Jonah acknowledged what Jehovah had said was right.
AI What helped the apostle in his exercises in this chapter? Was it the Spirit of God?
JTJr Well, we have remarked on that already. It was the experience of finding out through the decisions in himself that the failure lay in him. From verse 7 we see how he reaches these decisions. Then he says that the law indeed is holy and the commandment holy, and just, and good. There is nothing wrong with what God has ordained. Then it says, “But sin ... working death to me by that which is good; in order that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful”. That is, there was a full demonstration of sin in himself. It was brought out by the fact that lust was working in him. The commandment brought out the full demonstration in himself. He had to come to that; the thing was terrible! Then he says, “We know”. It is a decision. How do we arrive at the truth? It is through decisions in ourselves. We know that the law is spiritual, and that we are fleshly, sold under sin. So we could list all these judgments that the apostle reached and then fit ourselves into the position. I have no doubt that Israel is alluded to in the thought of being sold. He says, “But I am fleshly, sold under sin”. In the book of judges we read how the children of Israel were sold by God because of their sin; they were put into the hands of others in order that they might learn through the discipline of being [p. 331] under foreign rule. When they humbled themselves, then they cried to God, and God delivered them.
ABP Would you say that, up to this chapter, it is what God has done for us? It is reached in our apprehension, by faith. But to be truly in the good of what has been done for us, we must have the thing worked out in us. So that the subjective side is reached in chapter 7?
JTJr Christ’s flesh is over against our flesh in all this. What wonderful flesh the flesh of Christ was! It was holy. In Him there was no sin. We are thus to be occupied with the One who did no sin, and in whom was no sin. He was made sin, and sin was condemned in His flesh at the cross. We then begin to live as occupied with Him, and our life is Christ.
AR In the early part of the journey of the children of Israel, they got the manna when they murmured. And again, when they murmured, the rock was smitten. But this is more the bite of the serpent which requires that we look at the serpent of brass lifted up.
JTJr And so we often find persons who have a certain amount of joy at the beginning of their spiritual history, and it is right. Persons get converted and there is joy. They may think that is the end, but it is not, for that joy needs to be carried through. The joy that comes into our souls needs to be sustained and the believer needs to find how God has supplied all that he needs. And so we learn that Miriam died, in Numbers 20. I suppose she suggests the early joy in the believer’s life which may run out. Well then, what is it that will carry us through? The first joy that came into our souls as believing in Christ will not carry us through. There must be something to sustain that joy. That is what is in mind in Numbers 21. It corresponds with what we are considering, and it is life out of death. Miriam died and we have to die in order that we might serve in newness [p. 332] of spirit.
CAM If we stop at Miriam’s blessing and the joy that she had, we shall not reach the truth that God, having sent His own Son, in likeness of flesh of sin, and for sin, has condemned sin in the flesh.
JTJr Quite so; it is important, in this setting, to see where the types correspond. As we get the history of the children of Israel before us we can learn ourselves through it. For these things all happened as types and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. That is in chapter 10 of Corinthians and the apostle refers to the lusting of the children of Israel there.
FHL Referring again to John 3: 14 it says, “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, thus must the Son of man be lifted up”. It was a divine necessity that the Son of man should be lifted up.
JTJr Quite so; the murmuring preceded the brazen serpent. They murmured against Moses and against Aaron. It was not the first murmuring. How much murmurings mark us! We murmur against this and against that. But have we come to it that these murmurings flow out of the sin that is in our flesh? And then what we are naturally should come to an end; whether we be sharp, or verbose, or cold, or effervescent, or given to folly or sport. These are all works of the flesh.
DP Would Romans 7 present a counterpart of the cross, worked out subjectively in the believer?
JTJr Well; it could hardly be a counterpart. It is really the process of two principles running through in ourselves. One is sin rising in us, and the other is what is right asserting itself. We need to be able to identify ourselves with what is right. We should come on to the identification of the ‘I’ and that that person is going through as identifying himself with what is right.
DP There is no thought of a dual personality.
[p. 333] You have in mind that one must know how to identify oneself with the new ‘I’.
JTJr Well, that is right; so he says in verse 17, “it is no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me”. There are the two thoughts. He knows the sin that is in the flesh, and there is the ‘I’ that does not want to carry out the desires of the flesh. We do not want to do what is wrong, but what is right, and God is going to help us on that line, and He will continue to help us through.
SCM Say something about the word condemnation. I was thinking of the Lord stooping down, in John 8, in connection with the woman. He wrote on the ground twice.
JTJr He stooped and wrote on the ground after they had asked Him, “thou therefore, what sayest thou?” Instead of answering at once, He wrote on the ground. They had time to reconsider but they continued asking. Then He says, “Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her”. How much this brings up as to ourselves in dealing with matters that arise! How we need to be in constant self-judgment if we are to act for the Lord in such cases! He says to her, Go and sin no more. He does not give her a full acquittal. He does not say, Go in peace, but, Go and sin no more. And that is what those who have failed need to be told at the present time — Go and sin no more. Stop sinning!
AR It is helpful to see how the apostle brings himself into this, It is, “I myself with the mind serve God’s law; but with the flesh sin’s law”.
JTJr We should each reach the judgment that in our flesh good does not dwell, and that the principle of evil is there. We are to arrive at that conclusion and keep the ‘I’ moving on right lines.
SW Do we have to come to the point of being wretched before we can have the word, “Go in peace”?
JTJr “O wretched man that I am!” How often that has to come up in our minds! We do the same things again and again. We determined we would not do them, but we do them again. The wretchedness as to self becomes a real thing.
WAT If we realise our wretched condition and therefore get greatly discouraged because of what we find in us, the knowledge that “There is then now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus” should lift us up and encourage us to go on with the mind of the Spirit.
JTJr Quite so, so that we are not to be discouraged and bound up. The Lord wants us to get through and identify the ‘I’ with what is right. I myself with the mind serve the law of God.
WWM And then it says, following the Lord having dealt with sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirements of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to flesh, but according to Spirit. It is the principle on which we now move, is it not?
JTJr I think it is; therefore you identify yourself with the mind of the Spirit. The person gets control of his mind. I suppose there is no more victorious moment in our lives than when we come to it that we have control, by the Spirit, of our minds, and that we are able to dismiss certain things from them, and retain what is right. The mind of the Spirit is life and peace.
CFE There must be a state of self-judgment all the time with each one of us.
JTJr The principle of self-judgment must be there, for the flesh is always there. It is always ready to come up in us, even at moments of greatest privilege. It is liable to come up at the Supper and in other meetings, so that there must be that principle of self-judgment with us constantly.
ETP The Lord said to the woman in John 8, “Go, and sin no more”. Giving up sinning would lead [p. 335] on to doing what is right, which would be a positive thing.
JTJr The tendency with the woman would be to sin again. Telling her to go and sin no more would be putting it upon her to stop that line of things.
ETP Would putting on the new man be the positive side to be reached?
JTJr Yes; the new man is over against the old man. The features of the new man are to be seen in our relations down here. There is a new state and all that we are and do should flow from this.
DMcD Would you help us further on verse 17? “It is no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwells in me”. That does not excuse me, does it?
JTJr There is no excuse for us sinning, but the desire is to not do what is wrong. We want to do what is right; we have a mind to do what is right. Then the Spirit of God supports us on that line. At the same time, what is working in us is sin in the flesh which we may not have overcome, but the Lord is ready to help us to identify ourselves fully with what is right.
JAP Is it like Caleb over against the murmurers? It says that Caleb had another spirit in him and followed Jehovah fully, so that Jehovah said He would bring him into the land into which he came, and his seed would possess it. He went through.
JTJr Quite so, and Joshua also, for he said that he and his house would serve the Lord. That was his decision.
EAL Jabez is another important man in the Old Testament. He asked to be kept from evil.
JTJr Yes; and the Lord brought about his request.
AR You have been speaking about getting through. It is a humbling matter to think that Caleb and Joshua alone, of those of twenty years and upwards who left Egypt, got through to [p. 336] the land.
JTJr Well, it is; so we might well ask, what about each of us; are we going through?
BT Would you say that we are to constantly be in the state of self-judgment? A man like Jonadab would be the opposite to this. He was a shrewd man and counselled Amnon as to Absalom’s sister, 2 Samuel 13: 5.
JTJr Yes, and with evil conduct in mind. The result was that Absalom murdered Amnon. What terrible things ensued in David’s family on account of God’s government on him for his own sin. Jabez, on the other hand, prayed that the evil might not grieve him. I think the prayer of Jabez should have our attention: “Oh that thou wouldest richly bless me, and enlarge my border, and that thy hand might be with me, and that thou wouldest keep me from evil, that it may not grieve me!” 1 Chronicles 4: 10. He was concerned that he should be kept from evil. Prayer leads to confidence in God that He will bring about right desires in us.
AMacD There is a footnote to the word ‘serve’ in verse 6, which says, ‘serve as bondmen’. Would the thought of bondmen help?
JTJr Quite so; bondmanship is basic. We need to understand that — especially those who take a lead and minister. If such go wrong, how will the mass of the brethren be kept right? Bondmanship would keep us close to the Lord and we would do His will no matter how much suffering it entailed. Paul uses the expression ‘bondmen of Jesus Christ’, meaning that he was completely bound over to the service of Christ, and not with his own importance or his own will before him in his service.
WWM Being ‘to another’ would involve that we have become bondmen of Christ.
JTJr As having the Lord thus before us, and being emptied of what we are naturally, we would be vessels for the Holy Spirit to fill, and this is reached in chapter 8.
The believer’s mind is under his own control, and he serves God’s law at the end of chapter 7. “With the mind” and “with the flesh” are instrumental, so to speak; the I myself is the person having assumed control, and he is ready for the Spirit. The judgment of God has been carried out; God has condemned sin in the flesh. The mind and the flesh are both in chapter 8. There is the “mind of the flesh”, which would not only refer to lust (from chapter 7: 8) but every form or feature of the flesh including the intellectual mind of man; that is, man’s wisdom, which is quite able to take up the holy things of God and hold them and deal with them in a wholly natural way. What is needed is the spiritual mind. There is the mind of the Spirit, and the “I myself” is to identify himself with that and thus he is free, and spiritual thoughts will develop in him and the Spirit of Christ will characterise him. What we have been considering is of the greatest importance and requires our careful and sober consideration in the Lord’s presence.