THE LIGHT OF THINGS WE HAVE COME TO
[p. 54] THE LIGHT OF THINGS WE HAVE COME TO
Hebrews 12: 22 to end
JT I thought it would be helpful to us to get the light of the things we have come to, especially as an element of support in view of “the race that is set before us” as it says. The apostle, the writer, says in the tenth chapter that the saints to whom he wrote had “need of patience”, and he cites the prophet Habakkuk to show what there was to look forward to — the coming of the Lord, and then continues to cite the passage in regard of faith “the just shall live by faith”. Habakkuk said that the vision had in view that the reader should run. The apostle introduces the varied examples of faith and sets them down as a cloud of witnesses for us, that we might “run with patience the race that is set before us” and he then brings in the discipline of God as a means of clearing our vision, so that we might see clearly. I mention these things that lead up to the subject of the epistle, because it is an element of support to us, in the race, that we should have clearly before us what we shall come to literally, but what we have come to now as a faith system, and as having come to these things, to find out what they really are — what each element is, for our present enjoyment.
DLH In Hebrews, one very great point is to shew that these poor believers in Christ from among the Jews had really got the very things, in a spiritual way, which had been held out as promises to the people in connection with the land; they had it all spiritually.
JT And is it not a question of their having come to the things in their souls? The point is that they should come to the things.
DLH That is so; they were all there.
JT They were all there, and these are the things that are involved in the position that we have taken up [p. 55] as believers. A person might be very illiterate, but as becoming a citizen of the United Kingdom he has come to all the things that are in the Kingdom in the way of privileges and advantages.
DLH Then the Spirit of God sets these things forth — the advantages, as it were.
JT Yes.
AMH Would you say that you have come to a system of support and encouragement in contrast to one of demand and fear — is that the thought?
JT Yes, I should say that.
Ques Is that why Mount Zion is put in the forefront?
JT I think it is; it is the constitution of the system, so to speak, the underlying principle, that is, that all is dependent on what God is — His sovereign mercy.
DLH All based, I suppose, upon resurrection?
JT Resurrection is, I suppose, the great evidence of God’s intervention, but it has a delivering effect in the soul, because whatever one is one owes to God’s sovereign mercy, not to anything hereditary or acquired. Whatever one is, whatever one has, it is all the outcome of God’s sovereign mercy.
JHJ Why do you think we get all these things in the 12th chapter and not earlier in the epistle?
JT I think there is development in the teaching of the epistle. The epistle is intended to lead our souls on to solid ground, and I think all these elements have a delivering effect; they deliver us from all that may attach to us and all that we might boast in outwardly, and set us on solid spiritual ground. It is not only that God will do the thing, but He has done it; Mount Zion involves that He has done it and that He rests in what He has accomplished — God dwells there.
JM Is Mount Zion the fruit of the place that Christ now occupies before God — is that how He has done [p. 56] it?
JT Yes, it is what is to be seen, not only Christ risen, but the position He occupies, “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion”, it is what God has done. Men may complain and resist and band themselves together against it, but it is done.
DLH I suppose Psalm 78 really sets forth the thought of Mount Zion in a very powerful way.
JT That is what I thought, it was when everything was lost “Then the Lord awaked as one out of sleep, and like a mighty man that shouteth by reason of wine. And he smote his enemies ... he put them to a perpetual reproach”, all that referring to the death and resurrection of Christ.
DLH Evidently. Then He chose.
JT He chose, and He built, and all that is what God did. One feels the importance of that, because things are so shaky; it is intended that things should shake under our feet, so that we might turn to what is unshakeable.
Ques None of these things is visible: is that in contrast to what was visible in the holy land?
JT They are not to be touched — not material things for the moment: not that they do not take material form, because they will; all these things will be livingly existent in the future, coordinated, and we shall have our part in them, but it is a question of what each individual christian can take account of as having come to himself so that he may explore.
Ques All these things establish our faith?
JT They are intended to strengthen us in the race; we are not treading an uncertain step, we know what we are about, we know what we have before us; and the point is that they are educational in the soul now, and one of the most important elements of my education is that I should see that anything that I am worth speaking about (as Paul says, “by the grace of God I am what I am”, and the christian is something) is through the sovereign mercy [p. 57] of God.
AMH That would have a very delivering effect in oneself, because it is humbling, is it not?
JT That is what I thought.
JHJ You commence, do you not, with looking off unto Jesus, then you get the light of this wonderful system opened up, really the world to come?
JT Well, the first thing is the constitution, that is, the general principle underlying christianity, and underlying the whole purpose of God in the future is that He has effected it. He has done it.
AMH Do you connect three things with Mount Zion, sovereignty, stability and mercy?
JT Sovereignty, mercy and stability; but you have more than that. When you come to what is stable you have added the thought, “... he built His sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever”, that is, the thing is not only abstract, it is concrete, and what God builds is built for ever, the building is firm. I suppose one of the most interesting studies in a way is the reference to faith apprehending that the worlds were framed by the word of God. “He spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast”. The firmness, the stability, lies in the will of God; it must be so. But then there is not only stability, there is structure, there is formation and ornamentation, order and beauty; that is the outcome of His word, the expression of His mind, and faith takes all in; so that even as to the material system faith apprehends that it is the word of God that has framed it; whatever there is in the way of ornamentation and regularity, balance and so forth, it is the word of God. And so in regard to the spiritual structure, it is on the same principle. Hence the next thing you get here is the city of the living God — a wonderful theme for the soul!
DLH Light, order and administration, all found in connection with God’s city.
[p. 58] JT Quite so, and the thing is replete with life, that is, it is the city of the living God, and heavenly Jerusalem. It takes very little to alter a city that man has built — the city of Berlin, what a change there is there! God can alter things here so very quickly, whatever glory there is goes very quickly, but in the city of the living God there is no possibility of change or decay, it is replete with life.
Ques I suppose you see it at the end of Revelation with much more detail.
JT That is an expansion of this, but it is all here.
DLH I have often wondered in my own mind how it is exactly that God takes up the thought of a city; it is very remarkable, because the idea of a city first occurs in connection with man — with Cain, and the first mention of the city comes in that association, which is not at all a good one: contrariwise, it is connected with man’s will, trying to make an ordered place of pleasure and amusement and satisfaction for himself here. Well, God takes up that thought; now what do you think about that?
JT I suppose it is for deliverance, because the thought of the city has a very great place in man’s mind.
DLH Evidently.
JT You see it with Lot, he clung to Sodom and, finding that he could not stay, he would bargain for a little city; illustrative of how the natural man clings to an ordered state of things in that way. But it says, God has prepared for them a city, a better country. God anticipated the thing; it is a political idea, that which man seeks. God prepares a city.
DLH There is the idea of centralisation and a spot whence light issues, and order and administration, and I suppose, in a sense, security too: all that seems to be connected with the thought of a city.
AMH Did Satan get a hold on man in that way and then God brings in His city as a set off against [p. 59] that?
JT That is what I thought, after the flood the idea revived, “let us build us a city”, that was existent in Abram’s world, the world out of which he was called.
Ques There is a centre of interest?
JT I think it effects deliverance, politically. There are more politics in us than we are prepared to admit, more national feeling than we are prepared to admit: you said today, Mr. H, that we should not profess to have national feelings, but as a matter of fact one knows one’s own self that national feeling is one of the most deeply rooted things in us.
DLH It is in the blood. Only from the christian’s standpoint you cannot conceive of it, it will not work: the moment you bring in christianity, away with your nations, because christianity knows no nations, so far as I see.
JT No.
WC Does the passage “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you” in Matthew refer to any actual nation.
JT I think it is an abstract reference to Paul’s ministry.
Rem Peter speaks of a “holy nation”.
JT God has not given up the idea of a nation, because He is the Author of nations, it was He who divided them, and it was a mercy that He did so, because it has become a check on sin; it was a certain limitation to man’s world, the division of peoples. Imperialism was for the overthrow of that; Nimrod was Satan’s tool to overthrow the division that God in mercy had made.
DLH Supposing we are praying at a meeting for prayer, how could a christian, if he is intelligent in what christianity is, talk about ‘our king’; it seems to me that the word would perish in your mouth if you tried it, it would not work, because, here is a French brother, or a German brother for that matter, or some other person [p. 60] might be present, and how could he pray for ‘our king’; it will not do at all. It is quite obvious from the christian standpoint there is no such thought; we pray for kings and for all that are in authority, surely.
AMH I suppose we may have the light of that, but unless we have another political system, as Mr. T, was suggesting, our hearts are still holding to the system here.
DLH Well, what a good thing it is that we have another system, and a very good one too, and it is going to stand when all the others will totter at their foundations.
JT You have another country, a heavenly city, and you may say a heavenly kingdom — three things that go to make up the national position. “... we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved”.
AMH Mount Zion and the city — where are those? You seem to make some distinction between what God chose, as if that might be the plan, and then what He builded, as if it might be the execution.
JT Yes. His choice is the site of the building, “here will I dwell, for I have desired it”. Then the building is set up there. The building, of course, the habitation, is not in view; the city is not exactly the habitation; still, the idea of the building was on that site.
NL What does the thought of “Jerusalem” suggest to you?
JT It is the heavenly Jerusalem here. I think it is the name of the primary city that God had in His mind. The first mention of it is in the Book of Joshua; but David took Goliath’s head into that city, as if anticipating the mind of God that that should be the centre of rule in the kingdom. I do not know what you might link with the name, perhaps you have something in your mind?
NL You get it again in Galatians, do you not, “Jerusalem which is above”; I wondered what the Spirit of God would convey to us in that [p. 61] way.
JT It was the name of “the city of the great King”, and faith cherished it until it was displaced by the heavenly system, the heavenly things; so that it would be in that way the church as the heavenly capital of the universe.
JBC Will the city have served its purpose completely in the world to come? In the opening of Revelation 21 you get the same vessel but looked at more in its character. I was thinking of what you were saying, that it is connected with power and administration in a settled form is it not? I thought it would serve the will of God until the completion of the world to come.
JT Then it becomes a tabernacle of God.
JBC I thought so.
JT Yes, where He dwells.
DLH I think in the eternal state it takes the character of the holy Jerusalem. I suppose the heavenly Jerusalem stands somewhat in contrast to the earthly Jerusalem.
JT I think priority is the thought in it, in what is heavenly; “He that cometh from above is above all” and what is of heaven has priority to what is on the earth.
DLH “I ... saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven”, that is the eternal condition of things, but here in Hebrews, it seems to me to be the heavenly city, somewhat in contrast to the earthly Jerusalem, which was the centre of all Israel’s hopes.
JM Is it on the line of the Songs of degrees — what we go up to as God’s great centre, rather than what comes out?
JT Yes. I think that the first statement here is what the city is — how it is constituted, it is the city of the living God; and then the next thing, I think, is that it is in liberty and necessarily has priority to what is on the earth; so that the liberty side is seen more in Revelation, it comes down “having the glory of God”; it is [p. 62] free.
WC Would the saints in the early chapters of Acts represent it?
JT I have no doubt that the foundations and the exterior of it may be traced in the Acts, but it is Paul who gives the interior, the heavenly Jerusalem; he gives it, I apprehend, that touch.
Everything in the early part of the Acts is marked by life, that is, spiritual energy: if it were the serving of tables, looking after the ordinary material things in the assembly, it was by those who were filled with the Holy Spirit, they were replete with life; nothing was under hard officialism, but it was all in the energy of life. I think you have a remarkable connection in the history of Stephen between the city of the living God and the heavenly Jerusalem; there is development from the energy of life into the angelic face of the Lord’s servant, his face was like the face of an angel; it was heavenly.
These things, in that way, are extremely educational, because the point for us, it seems to me, as has often been remarked, is to go back to the beginning, “That which was from the beginning”. The city of the living God is what marks the disciples in the early part of the Acts, and the Lord set the thing, as it were, before them by assembling with them for forty days. “He shewed himself alive”; it was a living Man in the energy of life that was amongst them. It can easily be understood that if He shewed Himself at all it would be alive, but the Spirit says “He shewed himself alive”. He brings in the word “alive”.
HN How would they be constituted heavenly?
JT I think Paul brings that element in. It was in the mind of God from the outset, but it awaited the ministry of Paul to bring out the full position of the church. He went into Damascus and preached in the synagogues that Jesus was the Son of God, and that lays the basis for the heavenly position and liberty. So that Paul and Barnabas went to Antioch and stayed [p. 63] there a whole year, they lived there, and it seems to me — not that the Spirit of God says so formally — that the connection is very striking, because it was there that the disciples were first called christians. They got a definite position in this world as outside and independent of what had position on the earth, they were followers of the Christ, and then we have the fact stated that they ministered to the Lord and “the Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them”. There is liberty for the Spirit, which is suggestive of the heavenly city, it is not held by any earthly claims, the Holy Spirit is free in it from any earthly trammels whatsoever. Then you have following upon that, Paul and his company.
HN I would like a little help in regard to what you were saying as to the city being the product of Paul’s ministry. Why is it that, in the end of the Revelation, the city is identified with the twelve and Paul is not brought into view?
JT Because it is the external thing, it is what comes under the eyes of the universe, but the inner springs all connect themselves with Paul’s ministry.
NL You do not get that thought in the first part of the twenty-first chapter; the thought of the twelve apostles comes out in connection with the city in the world to come.
JT Quite so.
NL You get the thought of the new Jerusalem in the first part of chapter 21 and in connection with Philadelphia, do you not? I was rather struck with that wonderful promise to the overcomer. I do not know if it is inopportune to ask how it works out.
JT I think it is very fitting, because Philadelphia involves the recovery of the truth of the church, and it shows that an overcomer would value the thought of the heavenly city, because anything that the Lord promises to you is what you value; He knows you value [p. 64] it.
WC What is the thought in the expression “the beloved city”?
JT I think it is a very suggestive expression; it shows what God thinks about it. The word “beloved” is very striking in scripture.
WC In the Psalm referred to (78) it speaks of “the mount Zion which he loved”; would “the beloved city” in Revelation be the development of that?
JT I suppose it would. You have the city added. Mount Zion is more the site.
WC There would be that found which is entirely according to God there.
JT Yes, there is much made of the city in the Psalms.
JBC I was thinking, that the thought of Mount Zion gives you the sovereign power of God which accomplishes His own pleasure, you get the idea of the divine foundation of all there. But when you come to the city you have more what is built, what is formed, and would not that involve, not only the sovereignty of God, but also what He brings to pass in the souls of His people. A city must be built in detail; the conception is sovereign, but the execution is in detail.
JT Quite so, and wisdom comes out in the skill with which things are done. But Zion is sometimes identified with a structure; we are asked to go into it, walk about it, tell the towers, and take account of it in its varied features.
DLH “Mark ye well her bulwarks”.
JT Yes, it is worth reading, that Psalm. (Psalm 48 read). Remarkable tribute to the city!
DLH Jerusalem is not mentioned, it is Mount Zion.
JT In that way the connection is very intimate. But the thought of the heavenly Jerusalem commands the attention particularly, because it is not only living, but it is a heavenly thing, it is such a delivering element from the earth.
[p. 65] But we must proceed, there are several elements and the next one, to my mind, is one we ought to pay attention to, that is, “the universal gathering”; I think that is how it reads.
DLH “To myriads of angels, the universal gathering”.
JT That is the third thing mentioned, which would greatly aid us in delivering us from localism, because it is a question of what is universal.
JM Is that why angels are brought in?
JT Well, I think, according to the way they are presented in scripture, they are very sympathetic with what God does everywhere, beginning at the foundations of the earth; but then here they are a representative company — “myriads of angels, the universal gathering”; not only are they there by way of a host, a number, but they represent the universe, as you might say, they are not local. I do not know whether that commends itself to you?
DLH Yes. I think so; it is remarkable the way that angels are introduced in regard to the divine system which christians are viewed as having come to — I mean because they are christians.
JT And to think of them assembling! To think of their intelligence! The National Congress as it is called in America is supposed to represent the wisdom of the different departments of the realm; but think of the wisdom that is found in this holy congress of holy myriads, dating back as they do, according to Job, to the foundations of the earth! Think of all the experience that they have had! They have been the executors of the will of God in every dispensation. Think of the political wisdom, as you might say! — because they have had to do with government very largely: their sympathies and concern, all is universal, they are not local. I mention it because if you move about among the people of God you will find that in the prayer meetings the expressed [p. 66] interest is usually bounded by the town limits; perhaps the brothers that visit are mentioned, but the universal interests of Christ, so far as one has observed, are very little in the hearts of God’s people, and I believe that this element here is intended to instruct us as to the universalism of the things of God. If we have come to this gathering, it is for us to understand what it means.
AMH So that if you get the thought of a centre in the city, this is now your outlook, is it? We want to look round upon the whole of what God is doing.
DLH Then is the idea that the saints forming the church have come into the good of the angelic ministry, at the present moment, in a kind of anticipatory way, in view of what will be seen in the world to come, when I suppose every family, angels included, will exactly fit into the precise niche which God has appointed?
JT I do not think we shall be surprised when we see the angels in the city gates if we have been exercised through our wilderness history, because as you say, that is what they have been to us. They are sent out, it says, “to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation”. It is not that they may always be ministering directly to me, but they are acting in the world on our account; things that happen politically and internationally are all, more or less, under their supervision and all is moved and governed on our account.
DLH So that the activity of these myriads of angels is a very important activity in view of the church at the moment. We are not very conscious of it, but there it is, and we have come to it.
JT We are entitled to reckon on divine intervention governmentally in this world, and you pray in the light of it; you are not to be overwhelmed by happenings, because things will only go so far.
JBC Do you not think that if this were better understood it would save us from many an anxiety?
JT I think that. I know it in my own soul; I am [p. 67] anxious about things and I find that at the bottom of my heart I knew they would be all right, yet I could not rest in it. God’s angels are attending, but we do not rest in what we really believe at the bottom of our hearts, if you can understand what I mean.
DLH I suppose the political element comes in rather in Daniel. “The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me”, the angel says.
JT That book helps greatly in the elucidation of this reference; the angels are seen there acting in the empires of the world.
DLH And so doing God’s pleasure in acting on behalf of God’s dear people.
JT That man praying, Daniel, is thinking of the interests of God everywhere and the angel comes to him.
Rem We have instances in the Acts of the Apostles.
JT Yes, take Peter.
NL When Mr. G. Cutting was in South Africa at the time of the battle of Colenso, there were some remarkable instances of the preservation of christians, he wrote home and said the angels were busy that day.
DLH I suppose they are busy oftentimes when we do not notice it.
NL When we are asleep.
AMH It is rather remarkable that the measure of the city is “according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel”; have you any thought as to that?
JT I do not know; beyond that the city is all that a man energized by the Spirit of God could desire, there is nothing lacking there.
DLH The Lord Himself assumes angelic form in the Revelation, now and again.
HN Would this “universal gathering” bring in the imperial idea just as the city gives the political idea?
JT I should say so, the angels represent that;
[p. 68] and the effect of their government would be to bring all in under Christ.
DLH There again, it is a curious thing that the imperial idea first of all originated, apparently, in man’s independent mind. God seems to take up that thought, so we find “who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords”, 1 Timothy 6: 15. That is Christ.
JT The next reference is to those that are privileged: you come to such a people as these. We want to know who these people are and what their privileges are. One can identify oneself with each of these things: I can identify myself with each of these features.
A.M.H. Would you say how?
JT Well, for instance, “the firstborn” ones. I am one of these; I have to take account of them as privileged, but then I am entitled to merge myself in them, and if I go in to explore I find out I am one of them; what a discovery that is! I am one of the privileged ones. I have a firstborn’s place: that eclipses all hereditary honours. Where am I now? I belong to the assembly of the firstborn ones, registered in heaven. There is a book “Who’s who” in heaven as well as on earth, and that book contains these people, that book tells you who they are.
AMH I was rather thinking of the other features we have been considering, as to how you connect yourself with the “innumerable company of angels”, for instance.
JT Well, I have a place in the administration, you know.
JBC Do you get the light of this in the epistle to the Romans, “heirs of God”; and then it is emphasised “and joint-heirs with Christ”: that gives the peculiar dignity of the company.
JT Yes, “joint-heirs with Christ”. I notice it does not say you should have come to these things, but it says “ye are come”; it is what the christian has come to; it is for him to find out what each thing is.
HN Would you mind giving a word on “God the judge of all”.
JT The point is, I think — have I a grievance? — and most of us have grievances. Well now, I have come to God the judge of all. I suppose the greatest difficulty in the world is that no one’s word is final. But God’s word is final and He has power to enforce it, and I have come to Him, so that I can leave it with Him. And then I have come “to the spirits of just men made perfect”. What society that is! I get amongst them. The question is, am I one of those?
Ques Does that refer to those who have passed away?
JT It is an abstract reference. All are made perfect in that day; but every saint has a spirit which is just. It does not say that we have come to just men, but that we have come to the spirits of just men made perfect.
HN Now give us a word on the last.
JT Then you have “Jesus the mediator of the new covenant”. That is the one Man that stands out pre-eminently amid that throng, that vast throng of the redeemed: there is one Man that stands out there for the soul — Jesus. It is the Man; He holds the soul; the soul is detained before Him and it is from Him that all takes character. And He has made good the love of God; He is the mediator of the new covenant. He has made it effective; every christian can say in the history of his soul ‘He has made the love of God effective in my soul through His death’.
DLH And He establishes the will of God. I suppose that is another point — the covenant.
JBC We have connected those things with the race: is it in your mind that we are going on, in that way, to the blessed actuality of them, but presently we have come to them spiritually: they are real?
JT [p. 70] That is what I thought. One is invigorated by the thought that one has come to these things.
JBC I was interested in what you said at the beginning about the vision: “for he with whom these things are not present is blind, short-sighted”. I think it would be a great aid in running the race if these things were present to us.
JT Just so.