THE EXEMPLIFICATION OF THE TRUTH (2)
THE EXEMPLIFICATION OF THE TRUTH (2)
WBs The 11th chapter sets forth the religious element, in the way of opposition. This chapter presents the political element. Herod represents this.
WE It is significant that what he did “pleased the Jews”.
JT The fact that Peter is preserved has its own place in this connection.
WCR Does Peter still represent the vessel of testimony?
JT I think he represents the authority of Christ; an authority that was founded not only on his commission but also on his experience. Experience is an important feature in the vessels of the testimony. Alongside the fresh energy that had set in, the energy of life, he who represented divine authority is preserved of God, notwithstanding the effort of Satan to destroy him.
JB Is there any significance in the fact that, the door of blessing being now opened to the Gentiles, persecution comes from that source? This is the first time in the Acts we read of persecution coming from the secular government. Hitherto it was the priests.
JT I think Herod is the antichrist, although not allowed to develop.
AFM Is your thought that the authority of the Lord is continued in regard to the testimony?
JT Yes. That was the reason why I suggested that this chapter should be read, that we might see how important it is that authority founded on experience should be preserved alongside the fresh impulse given to the testimony.
WCR What do you mean by the authority of the Lord being preserved?
JT Well, today we have no appointees of Christ, we have no officers. We have often heard that, but it [p. 87] must not be assumed that there is no authority here. There is, and there will be while the Holy Spirit remains, and authority is usually founded on experience. Authority now must be moral.
CAM You are speaking of things in an administrative way, are you not?
JT Well, even if there be no direct application of the authority it is a great thing to see that it exists, Peter is not seen here as active in service, but as preserved. We see how in chapter 15 he comes in and meets the situation with divine wisdom, in conjunction with James. He is preserved here.
CAM Would you say again just what he represents today?
JT Any moral formation based on experience with God, involving weight and leadership among the saints.
FL I think this is a continuation of the mount of transfiguration. Peter, James and John were with the Lord on the mount, and James now gets the cup and baptism which the Lord promised he should. John is held in reserve and remains to the end — “If I will that he tarry till I come”. Peter is marked off for death but is preserved for a while longer. Peter, as it were, comes out from amongst the dead. He comes out from the prison house. I suppose there is a suggestion in that way of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. That is, death and resurrection in connection with witness. Is that on the line of what you have before you?
JT I think Peter describes the cherubim and John the seraphim. The cherubim is preserved here of God. The earlier chapters — that is, 9, 10, and 11 — show Peter’s education (if one may speak humbly in this way); what he had acquired through the experience arising out of the murmuring; but this is a divine intervention, not a question of Peter’s education nor of his work, but of how God preserves the element of authority amongst His people.
[p. 88] GAT Do you think God would be using this to prove to Peter what the Lord told him that the gates of hell should not prevail against the church? Matthew 16: 18.
JT Yes. I think Matthew is the cherubim, and Peter has his place in that; but John is the seraphim side. That is, it is priestly, but priestly in the sense of guarding the person of the Lord Jesus. He takes care of His personal dignity; Peter is in general the representative of divine authority.
WCR In giving him the keys the Lord spoke about binding and loosing. Would that be authority?
JT Surely.
RSS You used an expression, authority founded upon experience with God: I was wondering if it might be illustrated in Paul in the shipwreck. He was not a seafaring man and yet he knew what ought to be done a good deal better than the captain of the vessel, and not hearkening to him they sustained great loss. He spoke with great authority on board that vessel time and again. Is that the thought?
JT Yes. If you apply the shipwreck to the church it becomes all the more apparent. They did not listen to Paul.
RSS When you speak of authority based on experience with God, it is moral.
JT Oh, quite. As I was remarking, no brother would assume to be an official directly ordained today, but there are elder brethren, and our exercise should be that God would preserve them among us; the saints need them. They need the experience that they have. A young man might have life, but he cannot have what an old man has, a man who has been with God for years.
HG Rehoboam lost ten-twelfths of his kingdom by refusing the counsel of the old men. On the other hand, Paul says to Timothy, “Let no one despise thy youth”. One needs to know how to maintain the [p. 89] balance.
JT Quite. There was really no one like Timothy. I think Paul had a certain feeling of discrepancy in putting forward a young man, but there was no one else. The old ones apparently were not available. But the saints need all there is available.
FL The fact is that the divine system is one of beautiful balance, and it takes account of the fact that those who ripen in experience pass off the scene and there is constantly being fitted in from the other end that which is in the energy and vigour of vitality; then there are those that lie between, and things are never rightly proportioned unless they are always in evidence. So the old should look with joy and with a welcome hand to those whom the Lord is expanding and opening out in spiritual vitality; and the young should look with gratitude upon those who are experienced in the ways of God and have stood long years as an asset in the house of God, and the fact is, nothing is right unless there is place for both of them. Now the older amongst us have something the young cannot have. They have experience, as you say, and in the house of God nothing is right unless there is the recognition of the divine ways. Provision is made for both and they are supposed to be sympathetic. Now if we lack that sympathy then there is fertile ground for dissension and trouble, and it will come.
HG I was wondering as to the point before you: this morning we were looking at the conservation of divine resources; the activity of grace amongst us is the preservative against disintegration. The only safeguard is the grace of God working amongst us. Is this the thought of the providence of God coming in to conserve what is of God?
JT That is what I thought; God acting providentially — through an angel — to preserve Peter.
FL I think the interest of the thing is immense; the testimony is one. Peter and James, it seems to me,
[p. 90] must be regarded as one; so, while death is working, the intervention of God in preserving life is working also. The testimony is one and it is ever supported by what is fitted in, so if James expresses that which goes down in death. Paul is ready to be worked into the testimony. It is always maintained and carried.
JT You see a great impulse given here. That is, that the scattered ones are occupied in the testimony, in preaching. Here you have an extraordinary situation, the scattered ones acting, as we may say, on their own volition. It says, “Those then that had been scattered went through the countries announcing the glad tidings of the word”, Acts 8: 4. I do not know that you noticed that but it is a remarkable expression at that particular juncture. You have in chapter 8 the glad tidings of the word, the glad tidings of the kingdom, and the glad tidings of Jesus; but the scattered ones announced the glad tidings of the word: in other words, what they had in their own souls. Now it says in the 11th chapter, “They then who had been scattered abroad through the tribulation that took place on the occasion of Stephen, passed through the country to Phoenicia, ... who entering into Antioch spoke to the Greeks also, announcing the glad tidings of the Lord Jesus”. Now that is an extraordinary situation; an entirely new development. They were not commissioned. It is obviously the energy of life in them. They loved the Lord, the word of God was in them, and they preached, but what would be the result if that went on? There must be coordination. The activities of God here through His people must be coordinated. Otherwise you would have every one doing what is right in his own eyes. What would you say to that?
JD I am listening with great interest to what you say.
JT Do you not think that where you have a condition such as we now have, this instruction is [p. 91] needed? We have had leaders and the Lord has taken them. Now how are things to be maintained? We have movements here and there, evidences of the Holy Spirit’s activities that we cannot but rejoice in; but then, the element of divine authority, involving order and coordination must be recognized. The house of God is one and is ruled by Christ. There must be full acknowledgement of that fact and of all the elements He employs. Those who have experience with God are of the utmost importance in the house of God, and I think that chapter 12 is introduced in order to bring that into evidence; and chapter 15 following upon it, shows the wisdom of it: whilst there was no restraint on the impulse of the Spirit, there was coordination and regulation, so that unity was preserved.
JD What do you refer to in chapter 12?
JT The preservation of Peter. He was preserved by God providentially, but evidently preserved for the ordering of the house.
FL You refer to the value of the experience that Peter had.
JT Yes, look at the precious treasure that was in that man. Think of what there was there, the experience that he had acquired with Christ in His ministry here and subsequently. It was a priceless treasure. Well, there is such a treasure today too to maintain; of course, of a much less degree, but still most essential.
AFM Would you get an illustration of this in Jacob, to whom the truth of the house of God was committed? At the end of his ripe experience he gathers his sons around him and foretells what should befall them in the last days. There was the authority of God there and the voice of wisdom, etc.
JT Yes, a comparison between Genesis 49 and Deuteronomy 33 helps in regard to that very thing. In the first it is, “Hearken unto Israel your father”. It is, really the parental authority of Christ, as you might say.
[p. 92] But in Deuteronomy 33 it is not the father, but the man of God — “the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel”.
JD It looks from this chapter as though God acted in answer to the prayers of the assembly. It says, “unceasing prayer was made by the assembly to God concerning him”.
JT But it seems that whilst they maintained the outward order of prayer they were not up to their prayers. That is, I think the chapter shows us (without, of course, emphasizing it) that decline had set in at Jerusalem. The prayer meeting was kept up as usual, but when that which was prayed for appears they do not believe it could be possible.
FL There again the younger element is shown in Rhoda. She has the joy and intelligence of the thing when those who were further on in a certain way and would be able to give expression in their prayers, as you say, were not up to what had transpired. The evidence of God’s hand was real and she accepted it. I can see at the present time the same thing — the young grasping, in the energy of faith, what God gives when the older ones are a little dubious about it.
JT We have the old and young beautifully linked together in Rhoda and Peter. She recognizes his voice.
RSS You said, if I understood you, that Peter’s preservation seems to be in view of the church.
JD It is good to solicit God on behalf of certain men who are specially valuable to the church. As far as I see, neither Peter nor those who prayed for him were up to the movements of God here. Peter thinks he has seen a vision. He is not sure about the thing at all. It seems to me that what we have coming out here is the authority of the Lord for the assembly. I was thinking of the difference between Peter’s preservation and John Baptist’s head being cut off; the latter closes a dispensation and there is no angel to deliver him, but there [p. 93] is an angel to deliver Peter because there is a new moral dispensation which the Lord would maintain.
FL Do you not think we are prepared here for a transference? That is, Peter is virtually seen as having filled his day; the ministry the Lord gave him was in the main accomplished; things are being prepared for a transference to Paul, so that, while he is delivered out of prison and, as you say, the ripe experience is preserved to the assembly, it is not he that carries things on. Another comes in to carry them on, and I think in the house of God there is nothing more interesting than to see how when one has, as it were, completed his course, another or others come in and continue the work.
JT And it is most important for us to take account of all that God has provided. Peter was peculiarly valuable at this juncture, as representing the authority of Christ, strengthened, as it was, by the moral weight which his great experience would accord him. But Paul and Barnabas were to be the active vessels. The effect of the service of the scattered ones is gathered up and brought under the teaching and influence of Barnabas and Saul. Thus the assembly at Antioch was formed. This was an additional asset, as one may say — an assembly through which the Holy Spirit can act. It seems to me that these chapters help in that way to show how the results of the work of God are all seen in their relative value, and then all coordinated so as to be in their settings according to the direction of the Lord and thus available as He needs them.
FL And would you not say of a vessel in the house of God that its service may be changed or take different form? That is, Peter had yet to produce his two beautiful letters, which have been such a wealth of comfort and light to the assembly.
JB The apostolic element, represented in Peter, is preserved in those two epistles [p. 94] to us.
GAT You said we were liable to have the form of prayer without being affected by it.
JT I think that is the lesson to be gathered. We have our prayer meetings, etc., but is faith commensurate with these outward forms? Chapter 12 is to show how God intervened, and how in result “the word of God” it says, “grew and spread itself”, verse 24. That is a feature of the house. The word of God has been in it uninterruptedly, and that works. As the apostle says, it “is not bound”. But it is most interesting to see how the result of the work of the scattered ones is brought under the teaching of Barnabas and Saul.
JD Well now, what would correspond with that today, in view of the ruin of the church?
JT It says, “A great number believed and turned to the Lord. And the report concerning them reached the ears of the assembly which was in Jerusalem” chapter 11: 21 - 22, and then it says, “And they sent out Barnabas”. Notice, Barnabas. I take him to represent the golden clasps of the tabernacle. Being “a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit” he would link with what was of God. They selected the right man to send. That was wisdom, and they prescribed where he was to go. He was to go as far as to Antioch, and it says, “who, having arrived and seeing the grace of God, rejoiced”. You will pardon my going into details, but what I think is that in the varied activities of the Holy Spirit (in whatever section or country) the spirit that marked Barnabas takes account of it and rejoices in it. He is not for the moment in the least occupied with how it affects him or his locality, or country. It is a question of what is of God, wherever it is. It says, “he went away to Tarsus to seek out Saul”. He did not write or send for him. He went for him and sought him out. You can understand the conversation that would ensue when he met him. The passage further reads, “And having found him, he brought him to Antioch. And so it was with [p. 95] them that for a whole year they were gathered together in the assembly and taught a large crowd: and the disciples were first called christians in Antioch”. Now I gather from that, that in order to really appreciate a work of God in a locality one has to go there, and indeed live there; not only for a month, but for a whole year; because if you are to understand the vicissitudes of assembly history locally you must not only summer with the brethren, but winter with them. They stayed a whole year, and during the time assembled with the brethren and taught them. They thus became available to Christ, as chapter 13 shows, in the testimony, and it was a wonderful triumph. And so it says, they were first called christians at Antioch. There were other movements, but this shows how the assembly was formed at Antioch, and what the result was. You have that in the 13th chapter — the Lord is ministered to. You do not get that in a ‘crowd’. The effect of the preaching was that a ‘crowd’ was added to the Lord, but it is in the assembly the Lord is ministered to; and the assembly at Antioch, in that sense, was obviously formed through the ministry of these men. By visiting Antioch, Barnabas evidently discerned what was needed there, and so he went to Tarsus to seek Saul.
JD Would that be more a question of what was local; and you might have any brother visiting the place, or you might have a local brother raised up in the place to bring about that moral coordination you are speaking of? I see the principle working at the commencement, but are we not to have moral coordination today?
JT I am sure that the Holy Spirit operates sovereignly and there are the same feelings and exercises, but then there are local conditions that are not alike. For instance, at Crete (Titus 1) you would need a different line of ministry because of the kind of people there, etc. I think what I remarked is right, that if brethren could only visit one another and see what exists in all the [p. 96] localities of the world, there would be a different view in many instances, from what is now held.
GAT You get a different impression by being in a place than through letters regarding it.
JT When they would detain the Lord at Capernaum, He says, “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also, for therefore am I sent”. It was the levitical side He emphasized. It makes an immense difference in your estimate of a company of saints when you visit them, and see what they have to contend with and stay with them a year.
GAT What do you mean by a year?
JT The different exercises come to light; what they have to contend with. The apostle speaks of wintering with certain ones.
RSS He was three years at Ephesus, and a year and a half at Corinth.
JT And a year at Antioch, and he came back there. Barnabas and Saul became for a while local brethren at Antioch.
HG And your thought is that ministering to the Lord and also hearing the voice of the Holy Spirit (it says, “The Holy Spirit said, Separate me now Barnabas and Saul”), these things are brought into view in connection with coordination — not exactly what you had before, the action of the Spirit? The scattered ones were working and the Holy Spirit recognized their work, and, while souls were blessed, you must have coordination, and hearkening to His voice.
JT That is what I thought. One can see how the Lord’s assets increased, so to speak, because Antioch may be regarded as a sample. The apostle Paul enlarges on this thought in the way he uses the word “assemblies”, showing that the Lord had, in these companies, formed the truth of the assembly.
AFM A verse in Acts 15 would substantiate what you say; “But after certain days Paul said to Barnabas,
[p. 97] Let us return now and visit the brethren in every city where we have announced the word of the Lord, and see how they are getting on”. That is the principle you are getting at?
JT Yes — see how they are getting on locally.
FL What I would like is a little clearer distinction between two things that to my mind are both right. I do not know that I see the distinction as clearly as one would like. One is that universal touch that comes from Christ as Head, and through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit, which gives unity of thought and engagement of attention. At widely divergent points, wherever there is spiritual exercise, you will find it is moving along certain definite lines, which can only be through impulse from the Head and the presence of the Holy Spirit. That is one thing, and I think we all of us set a good deal of store by that. The other is the contact with individual localities. It seems to me that in the present condition of things there are many localities which are in spiritual vigour, who receive very little from those who may visit them; the need is met through men raised up locally; the supply is from the Head, through the presence of the Holy Spirit; one way and another joints and bands are exercised about that which is the truth for the time, which is of general exercise in the assembly; and yet they may have but very little contact with the Pauls and Barnabases. Is that not a feature of the broken state of things today?
JT No doubt, but to arrive at the truth we have to see how things were at the beginning; under the government of God things are extremely weak now and most of those who serve are men who work with their hands. It has turned out that way, but some years ago it was not so. Mr. Darby, for instance, traversed the globe as he had opportunity. That was in accordance with true levitical instinct and activity; as the Lord said, “I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent”.
[p. 98] Well, now, is it not possible for the Lord to bring about conditions today in which brethren can be visited in their localities, so that what is of God is discerned, and what is not of God. Features that mark a locality are likely to characterize the saints there (e.g. Corinth and Crete) and it is necessary to know these features in order to minister intelligently. The apostle informed Titus as to the Cretans. It is most important that saints should be visited (especially if there are difficulties) whenever possible. I have found my judgment wholly changed when I met brethren and conversed with them, saw them in their locality; I believe any one engaged in levitical work ought to go as far afield as possible.
WHF I was at many meetings with Mr. Darby and I do not know of any brother that supported evangelisation as he did. Again and again he made the remark that if brethren ceased to be evangelistic they would wither; and I would say just here that I think we need to be greatly stirred up in relation to that, that we ought to be more increasingly sympathetic with the Lord in relation to the spreading of the glad tidings.
JT I believe that. What we see at the end of this chapter is “But the word of God grew and spread itself” verse 24. It was the word itself. Then we have, “And Barnabas and Saul returned from Jerusalem, having fulfilled the service entrusted to them” — a remarkable commendation of these two devoted men, that when they were sent up with money to Jerusalem they fulfilled the service and returned to Antioch.
JD It is remarkable what it says; “Immediately” (speaking of Herod) “an angel of the Lord smote him, because he did not give the glory to God, and he expired, eaten of worms. But the word of God grew and spread itself”. It is put in contrast to what had taken place with him who is a type of the antichrist, “The word of God” is the testimony.
FL There is something remarkable about [p. 99] the continuity of things. We see in Esau and the Edomites the implacable hatred of everything established in the sovereignty of God, which is seen in Jacob and the children of Israel. There was the effort to destroy the man child when Christ was born; and now the effort for the destruction of Peter. Herod was an Edomite.