THE EXEMPLIFICATION OF THE TRUTH (5)
THE EXEMPLIFICATION OF THE TRUTH (5)
JS Would you mind giving us a little outline of this chapter?
JT It has its own place in the teaching of the book showing how God preserved, at the beginning, outward unity among the saints. The seeds of sectional feeling and prejudice had already appeared in the history of the church, chapter 6, which were met in divine wisdom; and now the enemy would corrupt the Gentile believers by erroneous teaching. I think its first appearance is here.
AFM Would you say this chapter is cherubic in character?
JT I think it is. I think it is government. The contention was between certain men that came down from Jerusalem and Barnabas and Paul; but then it was decided to refer the matter to the apostles and elders, showing the wisdom that possessed the saints at Antioch; that is, the recognition of the authority that existed and still acted with God in Jerusalem. The result was that the truth was preserved and the brethren with it.
WBs In the 14th and 15th chapters you have the two elements that have been in the world from the first: in the 14th more the character of violence and persecution, in the 15th corruption. These two elements always go together. The corrupting element is more inside. False teaching generally arises within, does it not? It is more destructive than the persecution outside.
JT Quite so. You will notice in the history of the churches that evil teaching comes in in the third, in Pergamos, “the doctrine of Balaam”, and “the doctrine of Nicolaitanes;” and then in Thyatira you have a prophetess, one professing to speak for God. She teaches the Lord’s servants to eat idol sacrifices and commit fornication. She taught that. When a thing takes the form of teaching, if erroneous, it becomes [p. 126] corruptive. Persecution, which was from without, was seen in Smyrna. But the wisdom with which the thing is met here is to be noticed. The chapter suggests what is cherubic, as our brother suggests; that is, the authority of God vested in the apostles.
WBs Where do you get that now? The same evil things and worse things are current. Where do you get that which protects the saints of God at the present time?
JT Well, it would be in that which the Holy Spirit forms. We have no apostles of course, nor appointed elders, but we have the Scriptures, and then there is the voice of the Lord in the addresses to the seven churches, what He says; and the voice of the Spirit. Further, the Holy Spirit forms men so that they have moral weight among the saints.
FL If we take the 2nd and 3rd of Revelation, in the words of the Lord we have the concrete presentation of the characters of evil which successively have come in. We are left in no doubt about them and in each case the Lord casts the overcomer upon the Spirit: “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. But it is to be noted that nothing specific is given of what the Spirit would say, so that it is clear we are left until the time and the occasion, then the voice of the Spirit will make itself heard to those that have an ear to hear; but you must be in the line of the testimony to hear what the Spirit is saying in that particular day.
JT It is what He says.
FL What He will do will be to give through those who have the prophetic spirit a present application to what is already recorded, making it living and vital for the need of the moment.
WBs It would be through “faithful men”.
WE In that connection it is instructive that it says, “For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us”, verse [p. 127] 28.
HG Where grace and wisdom are in operation, not only is the then difficulty met, but there is great excess. It is met for all time as regards the Gentile christians through the judgment arrived at in Jerusalem; and then the church at Antioch gets the benefit of the consolation from Judas and Silas, and evidently Paul gets a new companion in labour. In connection with it there is the thought of the trespass-offering — if a wrong had been done the wrong was not simply righted, but there is a fifth part added. There was excess and you look for that in connection with the righting of anything wrong. Otherwise it is not triumph. There should be spoil from every conflict.
JB How about the seven stars that are in the right hand of the Lord? Would they not continue at the present moment — the angels of the seven churches?
JT There is this to be said about them, that up to Thyatira He holds them but after that He has them. That is, the public ecclesiastical position is no longer recognized, but He has them.
JB Accessible to Himself?
JT Yes, He has them. In regard to the trespass-offering as you mentioned it, it is worthy of note that the offering was to be a ram. That is, the difficulty lay in the want of development and full maturity. We have to come to that in our souls. The absence of it underlies trespass.
WCR I do not understand just what you mean by that. You say it was a ram in the trespass-offering?
JT I think a ram denotes full maturity. It is the want of that that leads to trespass. We are to be grown men in our minds.
HG And yet where the trespass does come in, if you bring Christ in there is distinct gain.
FL Is that not the thought in the ram?
JT It is what Christ is, the perfection of manhood. He restored that which He took [p. 128] not away.
AFM In the case before us then, those who taught that they must be circumcised had not arrived at spiritual manhood or they would have been above such a thought.
JT They were going back to the nursery (Galatians 4: 1 - 3), as under the law. Souls were under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. The ‘time’ has now arrived and it involves sonship and liberty.
GAT What would correspond now to the attack spoken of here?
JT All the sects around us are more or less the results of this; that is, the application of the law to Christianity.
FL There has been reversion to Judaism. The Jewish system is very appealing to what is natural in man for religion, and Christendom has not hesitated to revert to Judaism, and to follow elements from paganism, and combine them. It is easy to distinguish those elements, so that I suppose in Corinth one side was especially working and in Galatia the other side worked. We see the effect around us and it is what in the mercy of God we seek to be delivered from.
WBs In the 1st verse of this chapter, and in the 11th verse we get one side very distinctly against the other. The 1st says, “If ye shall not have been circumcised according to the custom of Moses, ye cannot be saved”. Peter says in the 11th verse, “But we believe that we shall be saved [p. 129] by the grace of the Lord Jesus”. Now that is a great contrast.
FL I hope we shall not pass over that 11th verse without admiring the exquisite grace that came out in Peter there as a Jewish believer.
RSS Saying that the Jews were saved like the Gentiles?
FL Being a Jewish believer, we should naturally expect he would say: ‘But we believe they shall be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same manner as we also’, but he puts it that “we shall be saved ... in the same manner as they also”. There is the absence of all superiority or priority.
WBs Peter is full of grace himself.
JT The way the matter is met in that way is very beautiful as showing, as our brother suggests, what we get in the trespass-offering — the fulness of manhood. You have manhood in Peter and in James; and indeed in the apostles and elder brethren I think you have it beautifully presented, and that is what the enemy would efface. He would lead the saints back to the nursery, to the time when they were in bondage.
HG In Galatians 2, where Paul speaks of going up to Jerusalem, he said it was by revelation; now I was wondering if you would regard him in that way as a Kohathite carrying the ark of the testimony, for he was anxious that the whole tabernacle should be maintained intact; here he is like a Merarite and Gershonite.
JT That is very suggestive indeed. The position of the apostles at Jerusalem had reference to the tent of the testimony, and the decision to send Paul and Barnabas there I think shows that the saints at Antioch entered into the mind of God in this respect. It might have been said, ‘Well, why not settle it here?’ but there were certain features yet to come out in regard to the tabernacle. The truth of the body and of the temple had not yet been developed fully, in the ways of God. So far, the twelve at Jerusalem were still recognized. The tent of the testimony moved on, but it included every bit of the work of God, wherever it was, and all was to be coordinated. That was a great problem to be worked out so as to show how the work of God rises above sectional or national feeling. Outward unity was preserved thus, but we can understand that after the epistle to the Corinthians was written you would not get anything like this. The matter at Corinth was to be settled at Corinth.
FL [p. 130] But the springs of action which would lead to the settlement of a matter on the ground of 1 Corinthians are revealed here, in the way in which man handles man and mind meets mind, and they are in subjection to each other at the same time that they maintain things for God. There is discussion but a right judgment is reached. Thus we have a good example set before us if we have to deal with similar problems now.
RSS A most serious division was threatened for if it had been carried through it might have brought to pass the existence of a Jewish church and a Gentile church. Of course God’s hand was over it in preventing that, and this chapter. I judge, is one of the most helpful in the Scriptures in regard to how to meet a case of discipline. That is, you get divine principles which are always applicable in every case of discipline. For instance, the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter. It does not say that the whole assembly came together to consider it. It has been very well said that the assembly is not deliberative; it is executive. The brethren deliberate. I mean those whom we should regard as more responsible because of their age or experience; they deliberate. There are cases, alas! that come up on which it would be highly unseemly to deliberate with all present. That is a matter for brothers to go into. The apostles and elders deliberated at Jerusalem, but when a decision was given the assembly was brought in. A “common judgment” verse 25 is the great thing to keep before us in any question that comes up, and it is not always easy to reach it. There may be, and nearly always is, some difference, and it is a great thing to wait, if possible, until a common judgment can be reached before action is taken; and when a common judgment is reached by the brothers it is not very difficult to present the case before the whole assembly, and then the assembly acts. It is executive but not deliberative and it should always be borne in mind that the essential [p. 131] thing is to carry, if possible, the whole gathering with the judgment, which may involve a great deal.
JT The arrival at a common judgment that the Holy Spirit endorses is greatly accelerated by the presence on the part of those who have to say to it of living interest in what God is doing in a general way. That is, in a case of discipline we are apt to confine ourselves wholly to it, which in itself must always be somewhat withering, but what one notices here is how beautifully dispersed throughout the inquiry and deliberation is the spirit of interest in what God is doing. Of Barnabas and Paul it says: “They therefore, having been set on their way by the assembly, passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, relating the conversion of those of the nations”. They did not occupy them with the cause of the dissension at Antioch. Their hearts were filled with what God was doing, not what these erroneous teachers were doing. That would come up in time. And then it says, “they caused great joy to all the brethren”. I think that is very fine at the outset.
JS That is, they were occupied with what was positive.
JT Yes, with what God was doing. Then it says, “And being arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the assembly”. We might expect it would be the apostles, but it was the assembly that received them. I think that is quite in keeping with what was in their own hearts, what God was doing. The assembly would be interested in that.
FL If you finish the verse you see that.
JT “And related all that God had wrought with them”. That was a good tonic, so to say, for the saints at Jerusalem before they had to look into this matter of discussion.
AFM I was noticing that. They do not primarily present or press their case. They relate what God had wrought with them, and then that forms an occasion for [p. 132] this trouble that was brewing to present itself on the part of the Pharisees.
JT The enemy cannot be inactive. They do not present their case according to the record. They presented what God was doing. The Pharisees introduced what had been the occasion of the discussion. Now to return to what we were saying, I think we do well to take notice that, in these matters of difficulty, ultimate success from God’s point of view is dependent on divine love in the brethren you appeal to. What the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, were occupied with was God’s operations, and if you appeal to the brethren you will find a response in them normally to that.
FL “And all the multitude kept silence and listened to Barnabas and Paul relating all the signs and wonders which God had wrought among the nations by them” verse 12. As you say, the emphasis all the way through is on that which was positive and constructive, and which was the divine work.
JT You see they of the circumcision move and then the apostles and elders come together. Then Peter makes his statement, and then you have again what they had to say — Barnabas and Paul. That was the thing. And then you have James’ decision, so that the whole proceedings are maintained on a high level. They are in relation to what God is doing.
JS They are not occupied with what the enemy is doing.
JT No, that falls into its place. The level is so high that the truth takes form and the decision of the apostles and elders asserting it is very sweeping. It begins as follows: “Inasmuch as we have heard that some who went out from amongst us have troubled you by words, upsetting your souls, saying that ye must be circumcised and keep the law; to whom we gave no commandment”, etc.
FL I try to think when I go into what we call a brothers’ meeting (for want of a better name) that, while we are touching things which in themselves appear low and almost menial, and as you said just now, sometimes withering, one gets greatest help in regarding the thing from the dignity of the house of God and the divine system, and how these things are related to that system; and the exercise has an immense effect upon the spiritual welfare of those who are for the time together in the bonds of fellowship. I think it is helpful to see that we can touch the very lowest things in connection with the house of God and become ennobled through the exercise in that way.
JD In the return of the remnant from Babylon, where there was no verification as to the genealogy of certain priests, it was held in abeyance until one should arise with Urim and Thummim. Now there really are cases that arise amongst the saints that outsiders can hardly touch; they are not on the spot. They may be acquainted with the thing but not with the spirits of those walking in regard to the circumstances. Do you not think that if there is waiting on the Lord He will raise up a priest with Urim and Thummim, who will have eaten the sin-offering and thus will carry the brethren with him?
JT I am sure that is so, and in fact even in companies like those at Galatia, such ones as you describe are supposed to exist. It does not say ‘If there be spiritual ones’, but “if even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one”.
JD It is easy to go by precedent, but I think in this connection it is a dangerous thing to go by precedent. What do you think?
JT Every case of course has its own features. You may get general indications from precedent, but, as you say, that will not do by itself. You must have the priest, and in saying that I am referring to the book of Leviticus, where you go for instruction in connection with discipline, because everything depended on the [p. 134] judgment of the priest. It is very significant to my mind that the apostle assumes that in the Galatian church there were spiritual ones, in spite of the fact that they were suffering seriously from legal teaching; and what occurs to me is that if we are simple enough, there is more of the priestly state than we might assume. You might get it too in a sister. One has often noticed that you find in a sister often a clear judgment as to a matter of discipline.
JD In that connection you have, “But the Spirit speaks expressly”, 1 Timothy 4: 1, so that you might have the Spirit speaking in this way in regard to a case in a sister, where the brethren could not give a clear judgment; and thus the matter brought (to those that were spiritual at least) to a conclusion.
FL Of course in all this we have to be humbled and recognize that we have to accept and suffer from our limitations. It is a day of confusion and if half a dozen, say, in a place take up the privilege of the Supper and the bonds of fellowship, and something comes in, it may affect them each one, and they may have to wait and be in a sense incompetent to develop the spirit of the priest with Urim and Thummim. We have our limitations due to the character of the day, and we must accept them. It happens not infrequently in such a little company that not the most spiritual mind guides, but the most subtle and cleverest mind; so that, looking upon ourselves as coming from a number of little companies, we have to recognize that in the day of disorder and confusion we have elements which may baffle us for a time before the Lord gives an issue, and ofttimes we are cast down in confusion because the unspiritual or subtle ones have sway, and not the spiritual ones, but then there should not be discouragement. It should set those who are godly in exercise so that room should be made for the Spirit so that a right judgment should [p. 135] be reached.
RSS With further reference to what is said in Galatians: “If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted”. Should any one touch a question of discipline that is not spiritual?
F.L. Who is to decide?
RSS It is a very exercising question to me. If a case comes up, in the light of the scripture I have quoted, should I touch it? Am I spiritual enough?
JT It is a question of recovery there, of course: “Ye who are spiritual restore such a one”, but abstractedly you have to take account of all as spiritual. I mean each has the Holy Spirit, and when it comes to acting for the Lord in a case of discipline all have to be taken into account, as we see here. It says, “the apostles and the elders were gathered together to see about this matter. And much discussion having taken place”, etc. And then after the discussion was over, and the statements of Peter and James are rendered, it says: “Then it seemed good to the apostles and to the elders, with the whole assembly”.
AP You would not call this discipline, would you?
JT No, but it indicates how things are done. The apostles and elders represent those whom God would in a special way hold responsible for a judgment. As was remarked at the beginning, deliberation is by them, but administration includes the whole company. That is, you must take into account the whole company if there is to be a formal act or committal to some course involving discipline.
RSS Yes, it is very noticeable that the apostles and elders do not decide this question. They come to a conclusion, but they were all together and it was brought before the whole assembly, including the apostles and elders; and therefore for several brothers to get together and decide to do something is highly out [p. 136] of order. It is an act that carries no weight with it at all.
AFM How about the epistle, the letter they sent, which was dictated by the apostles and elder brethren? Would you say a word about that? It was not dictated by the whole company.
JT Well, the assembly could not teach, you know. The assembly at Jerusalem could scarcely say anything that should regulate the assembly at Antioch. Coming back to the thought of the cherubim, that was represented in the apostles and the elders.
CAM Would it be right to say something about the spirit of the thing, of what they arrived at? They go back to Noah’s day, do they not? Then God gave living things as slain, to be eaten. Do you think that has a moral significance?
JT I think it has. It does not appear that flesh was eaten before that time. It seems that men were, as we speak, vegetarians till then; but now that the weight of government was set on Noah. I suppose we have the suggestion of food that would be needed to support that, so that animals were given as food to them. But the reference to Genesis 9 here is that things strangled and blood should not be eaten.
HG As to the application of this, I was thinking of 1 Timothy, in connection with the order of the house of God. Paul says, “But the end of what is enjoined is love out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith; which things some having missed, have turned aside to vain discourse, desiring to be law-teachers”. That is, if we are not formed in the divine nature, so as to be able to meet evil by the power of good, we shall revert in principle to law. We shall make demands upon one another which can never correct things. On the other hand, the result of the operation of love in connection with this difficulty at Antioch was that the Gentiles remembered the poor — a wonderful [p. 137] answer to the Judaising teachers because the corrective which Paul and the apostles brought in produced an outflow of love from the Gentiles to those very Jews! So that after all it is a question of moral stamina.
JT That is what I had in mind in remarking about the high level on which the inquiry was conducted. Peter’s statement, for instance, is not of one who asserts his authority. He is not asserting his authority as an apostle. Note how it reads: “ye know that from the earliest days God amongst you chose that the nations by my mouth should hear the word of the glad tidings and believe. And the heart-knowing God bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit as to us also, and put no difference between us and them, having purified their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, by putting a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? But we believe that we shall be saved by the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same manner as they also”. Now there is a statement that carries its own weight. In matters like this we have to bring in conviction. It is not what I hold or believe simply; the thing has to be set forth so as to carry conviction in the souls of those that hear and this marks Peter’s speech here. Who can dispute it? The issue really was between God and these evil teachers. And then there is no more said save that “all the multitude kept silence and listened to Barnabas and Paul relating all the signs and wonders which God had wrought among the nations by them”. That was a result, as you might say. There was an ear to listen. Then it says, “And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Brethren, listen to me”. You see the order and the high plane on which the inquiry is conducted, so that the result is according to God and such as to carry conviction to everyone concerned. That is the happy result that we should always seek, it seems to me, in difficulties. You want the [p. 138] consciences of all carried, and that can only be done by a setting forth of things in a positive way in the energy of divine love, for “Love never fails”.
JS Do you think the consciences of the Judaising teachers were carried here?
JT I do not know that they were, but in the way the multitude was carried they would be overwhelmed for the time, at least.
GAT Have you not seen that same thing happen in brothers’ meetings? Brethren would be talking a good bit about a thing and unexpectedly some brother would speak and settle the matter by what he said.
JT Quite. It is positive occupation with what was of God that marks the proceedings here.
GWH You would say then, in order for things to be done right, whatever we touch, whether the prayer-meeting, reading, or otherwise, we have to come from a high plane? What would the plane be?
JT Oh, I think it is occupation with God and His purpose and how He is working to reach it.
JS Would you say that here it is the work of God among the nations?
JT Yes. When the Holy Spirit came what marked the saints was that they were speaking about the wonderful things of God, and these can always be spoken about.
JB These were incontrovertible facts, and they knew them.
JT Quite, so really it would be very salutary in times of difficulty to bring in what you know God is doing.
JS Does it denote a state of weakness if you are occupied with what the enemy is doing?
JT I think it does, and where difficulties crop up in localities what I have observed is that the poor brethren feed upon the wretched things that grow out of difficulties, and what invariably is needed is positive food to lift their souls out of that and connect them with what God is doing. Certainly the confusion that may exist is not God’s work. The enemy has effected it and would occupy the saints with it; they need to be engaged with what God is doing.
AP Do you not make a difference between local and general difficulties?
JT Well there is a difference, certainly, but fellowship is both local and general, and if we cannot have the general we should not pretend to have the local fellowship. What you see here is the coordination of the work of God. That is what you get in these chapters. The great burden of the hearts of Barnabas and Paul is what God is doing, and the result of the inquiry is a decision that causes joy in all those in whom God was working, verse 31. That is what you want.
CAM Would you connect this matter of food here with the sheet let down? You know these creatures were let down to Peter in connection with what he should eat. Do you see any connection?
JT There may be a connection in that. There is liberty to partake of what God in His bounty provides. Of course if we apply that spiritually we can see the bearing of it. The point of this chapter is to maintain the liberties of God’s people.
CAM So that Peter, you would imagine, would be quite ready for such a decision as this?
JT Just so, and then the eastern and western branches of the church are maintained in happy unity in a positive way, and as we proceed in the narrative. Thessalonica is brought in, and it is said of them that they became imitators of the assemblies of God which were in Judaea, 1 Thessalonians 2: 14, showing that Paul’s labours resulted in that. He directly avoided anything like sectional feeling; but the work of God was coordinated. He did not establish the assemblies of God in Judaea, but the result of his labours in Greece was marked by this, that they imitated those churches. They looked to Judaea [p. 140] for a model.
CAM As far as the governmental side was concerned?
JT Yes, quite, but do you not see that that is of great importance now because God is working everywhere? He is not working on sectional lines. He works in different localities, but the point is to bring all into coordination. It is one work and the effort should be to keep it linked up together so that all is seen to be of God, and the results are for God. Rome claims to be catholic, but there is no church less catholic than Rome. The very fact that it is Rome and that almost all the bishops were Roman, or Italian, proves it is the most sectional of all the churches. It is essentially sectional and yet it claims to be catholic. The church is divided into eastern and western branches. Now the Holy Spirit is here striving against that, and what He would do now is to maintain unity amongst the people of God in all the sections of the world. I think the principle of catholicity is one of the most important we can have before us at the present time.
WHF Your thought is to occupy the saints with good, not evil. Oft-times ministry comes in in connection with a local difficulty that helps, but when brothers outside interfere they often bring in trouble. I have known that in many instances in my time, but I hold that, while a brother is with the Lord and capable of ministering to the saints in the locality, he will effect a great deal more in bringing about a right adjustment of the thing according to the Lord than those interfering will.
JB Why does James bring in the tabernacle of David; and what is it?
JT The strict fulfilment of this would look on to another day. He brings it in here, as Joel is brought in earlier (Acts 2: 16), to support what God is doing now.
JB Referring to government?
JT I suppose so. David is representative [p. 141] of government, so the gospel of Matthew begins with that. “Book of the generation of Jesus Christ, Son of David, Son of Abraham” — not Son of Abraham, Son of David, but “Son of David”, because the government was in connection with David.
JD There has been quite a bit of reference made to what God is doing. What do you judge God to be doing today?
JT Forming the church in bridal affections, pending the return of Christ; the Supper having been in a most remarkable way brought in in recent years as the centre, as you might say, of all that the Holy Spirit has been ministering. It is to bring about, as I understand it, church affection.
WHF Do you not think that the ministry of John comes in here in order to bring that about?
JT No doubt. The Supper is the central point, I think, of all that the Holy Spirit has been ministering in recent years, and it appeals to the saints as nothing else does as to the love of Christ; and God is working in connection with that, as I apprehend it, and it involves the whole church, and so one would be concerned that in all his activities he would have the whole church in view.
HG I hardly know of anything more injurious morally than the carrying on of that which denotes the love of Christ, whereas there is state altogether abhorrent to Christ existing.
WE Was that not strikingly true at Corinth?
FL The question there was — Is there a writing of Christ in the hearts? The evil that existed there was enough to make one think that there was nothing left. But the apostle speaks of the Supper; indeed it is brought in as a sweet challenge to the affections. If there is response to that, there is a writing of Christ; happily this was so, as the second epistle proves. And the fact that the Supper has remained in abeyance during [p. 142] most of the period of the Lord’s absence and is revived at the end, suggests how it comes in as the challenge to the affections, to decide whether there is a true writing of Christ. So, while one fully goes with what is said about the shame of continuing the breaking of bread where the moral condition is gone, yet the breaking of bread will continue to the end and will be used in the development of bridal affections.
JT Yes. It involves movement. “As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew” — “As often”. First days of the week come; why should there not be eating? The Supper is to be continued. The epistle to the Corinthians in no sense suggested the cessation of the breaking of bread. The point was to “keep the feast ... with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth”.