THE LAMB
[p. 403] THE LAMB
JT I am thinking of the word ‘Lamb’ as expressive of sacrifice, and how the Lord is seen at the outset of John’s gospel in this way as “the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world”, and how John met the overtures of the men from Jerusalem, verse 19. It is a question now of our witness; what we testify to. I thought this paragraph, verse 19 - 28, would help us as to calling attention to Christ. This is incumbent upon us in our ministry and service as to what we confess. It says, “And he acknowledged and denied not” and then a second time, “and acknowledged, I am not the Christ”. In all their inquiries he is negative. He said he was not the Christ, not Elias, not the prophet. Then they say, “What sayest thou of thyself?” That will come up in our service in testimony. He says, “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the path of the Lord, as said Esaias the prophet”. We are told they asked him why he is serving as he is: “Why baptisest thou then if thou art not the Christ, nor Elias, nor the prophet?” John’s answer is “I baptise with water. In the midst of you stands, whom ye do not know, he who comes after me, the thong of whose sandal I am not worthy to unloose. These things took place in Bethany, across the Jordan where John was baptising”.
I am thinking of the example we have at the outset of John’s gospel of witness, and how sacrifice is involved in it, and of the sense of refusing to seize any opportunity that is granted us of asserting ourselves. John is negative, saying first what he is not. Then they question him to tell the truth as to his service. We may say, “less than the least” but we are something. Paul says, “I am what I am”. That is the way. In order to assert what one is, it is a question of what God has made one; therefore John’s identity is an account of what he is, but [p. 404] he repudiates all opportunity to assert himself, and he becomes a suitable vessel to call attention to Christ in His sacrificial character. John’s gospel bears on us so directly as to whether we are suitable in a sacrificial way to call attention to Christ in this light.
Isaac is a type of Christ. God said to Abraham, “Take now thy son, thine only son, whom thou lovest, Isaac, and get thee into the land of Moriah, and there offer him up for a burnt offering on one of the mountains which I will tell thee of”, Genesis 22: 2. Abraham was ready for it. He is tested as to the lamb. He says to Isaac, “God will provide Himself with the sheep for a burnt offering”. Abraham is well instructed as to the position. The Lord was to be led as a lamb to the slaughter. It was a good journey, about three days, and what was found was a ram caught in the thicket. God had the progenitive thought in mind, and this gospel would provide for that, for the thought of children. It is the male side that is in mind. John shows how that comes about; it is in children, those who take on character from God through Christ. It is as receiving Him, “As many as received him, to them he gave the right to be children of God, to those that believe on his name; who have been born, not of blood, nor of flesh’s will, nor of man’s will, but of God”. They believe on His name, so that I think John links on with Abraham and Isaac in this way, and John the evangelist pictures his ideal of one who makes way for Christ, one who is characterised by sacrifice. How he alludes to Christ in a sacrificial character!
This is not the burnt-offering; it is the sin offering — “Takes away the sin of the world”. The patriarchs of old were acquainted with the burnt-offering, working out what was pleasing to God. Abel, Enoch, Abraham pleased God. That is the character of the burnt-offering in the main, but this goes further. It leads us into Exodus where sin is brought into evidence. The lamb in the character of sin offering is roast with fire.
It was a question of Israel’s state and how it was to be met; so that Christ our passover has been sacrificed: that is having to do with sin according to Corinthians. The sacrifice goes the whole length here, the fulfilled length to which God intended it to go. “The Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world”. It would be well for us to ponder this a little. The testimony is continued on the line of sacrifice.
JD I was wondering if you thought the testimony they were rendering or any service rendered, to be accepted by God, is based on the appreciation of Christ — evidently here Christ sacrificially as known in John’s gospel.
JT Attention is called to “The Word became flesh”, verse 14. These verses are introductory until Christ began to manifest His glory, for the marriage in Cana of Galilee leads to the manifestation of His glory. When faith has begun the disciples believe on Him. But in the 14th verse it says, “The Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father), full of grace and truth” — a gracious statement as to the Lord! It denotes family relationship to God. Then John bears witness of Him saying, “This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me”, as if John the evangelist could hardly wait for verse 19, where he spoke about John the Baptist’s testimony by the Spirit.
These books are written according to plan. We learn that from the Lord saying to John in the book of Revelation, “Write therefore what thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to be after these”. He told him how to plan the book. No doubt all the books are written on that principle. The whole book is written according to plan; therefore we may say verse 15 belongs to verse 19. He seems to have John the Baptist in mind in this chapter several times and right on to chapter 3. We get him in verse 6, “a [p. 406] man sent from God, his name John”. The word ‘from’ is ‘from with’ as we shall see. It carries the idea of ‘sent out to serve’. It is so with Christ. Therefore John has a great place in John the evangelist’s mind. In mentioning the incarnation he says, “John bears witness of him, and he has cried, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that comes after me is preferred before me, for he was before me”, verse 15. It is abnegation itself, setting himself aside completely.
LES Do you think the legality of the position involved in incarnation is witnessed by the spirit of sacrifice?
JT I think that is the way. A tested one in accord with that is John the Baptist. He is the best example the Spirit of God could select. The gospel was written long after he testified, but his earliest witness of Christ is brought in in this way, as sacrificial. It was a great opportunity to be something, but he deliberately renounces it — will not be anything at all. John the evangelist keeps John the Baptist in mind, and we are to keep him in mind in these early chapters.
LES Chapters 3 and 4 will fill out his testimony in relation to John the Baptist.
JT That is the way it is. It is not easy to find where his testimony finishes in chapter 3. He is almost on Christian ground at that juncture. It is said, “God gives not the Spirit by measure”, and then, “The Father loves the Son and has given all things to be in his hand”; and He says to the woman in John 4, “If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that says to thee. Give me to drink ...” ‘I am asking a drink of you, poor creature that you are; if you knew that, you would ask for it’. The minister is in the lowly position; the people ask and you go low to meet their needs.
JD Do you think in the use of the word “preferred” there is any thought of the personality of the Lord Jesus in deity?
JT [p. 407] That is the point. John was looking at Jesus. That is the way he put the truth about the incarnation. John the Baptist is six months older; they are together. The Lord says, “This is he of whom it is written, Behold I send my messenger before thy face, who shall prepare thy way before thee. Verily I say to you, that there is not arisen among the born of women a greater than John the baptist”, Matthew 11: 10, 11. God had that man and this Man before Him. He selected this Man. John says, ‘I know that’ and he tells how he knows it. He sees Jesus coming to him and says, “Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world. He it is of whom I said, A man comes after me who takes a place before me, because he was before me; and I knew him not; but that he might be manifested to Israel, therefore have I come baptising with water. And John bore witness, saying, I beheld the Spirit descending as a dove from heaven, and it abode upon him. And I knew him not; but he who sent me to baptise with water, he said to me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit”. That is when God made His preference. It alludes to the very time God’s voice was heard. He was a divine Person, God Himself. But in the matter of the preference of these two men, Christ here below is preferred.
JD Christ here below is God’s preference coming out. John says, ‘It is not I’. He is a great man, but John the evangelist tells why he is sent; he came for a witness.
JT You might say that is the preface of the book. Then in the book you get what he sees, ‘No wonder he is preferred’, we might say, but scripture does not put it that way. Heaven does not open on a Babe to say, “This is My beloved Son”. We are safe only in taking the divine record which gives a real Man before us, who walked thirty years before God, and God says ‘This is My Lamb’. That is the One selected. The other had the opportunity but this One is selected, John is next. You might say, ‘No one greater born of women’ of John, but John says, ‘I was not selected, I want you to know that’. He cried so that no mistake would be made. He avoided the thought of self-aggrandisement.
JD It is a wholesome thing for ministers of God to get hold of the fact that any testimony they have is to Another. It would greatly grieve you to think you took a greater place in the saints’ mind than Christ does.
JT That is the idea. Christendom is becoming just like the world; titles, rank and the like, whereas true ministers are nothing; they take no place even though offered one.
Rem John says in chapter 3, “He must increase, but I must decrease”.
JT Further on you see how thoroughly John was in accord with the service God gave him to carry out. He tells us here what the service is. He says, “I baptise with water” — a negative thing; but he brings in the Lord. He says, “He it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit”. Only a divine Person can do that. John is showing the greatness of Christ.
JD There is a beautiful footnote to the word “Stands”. J.N.D. refers to Genesis 18: 2; ‘has taken his place and stands’.
JT He stood amongst them, as it were, ready to serve them. It was a reproach to them that they knew Him not.
LES “I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness”, then “Behold your God”, then linking it with the thought of the Lamb in Isaiah 53, is all to bring forth Christ in His sacrificial character.
JT That runs in many of these chapters.
JL Would the apprehension of who Christ was in John’s mind bring about a sacrificial [p. 409] spirit?
JT I think it does. If we are to be of service today we are to be on this line. It is what God has made you, you are what you are; Christ is what He is, as He says, “Altogether that which I also say to you”, John 8: 25.
LES What is the force of the word “Lamb?”
JT It is not diminutive. The word denotes maturity. It is not a little lamb as in Revelation. This is more mature, leading on to the ram which is mature and progenitive. John’s gospel has that in mind. Children of God start in John’s gospel.
JD Would it be an affectionate term?
JT I think so.
AD Would the attitude of the Lord today in christendom as standing outside be similar? None received Him.
JT In the sense of Lamb of God. He is God’s sacrificial idea. That must attach to us. If we are not in the sense of the burnt-offering we will not be fit for service. Young men are apt not to have that in mind. John the Baptist represents it to the full. It is a question of bringing Christ in.
JL In this expression of John’s as to Jesus, would it show an increased sense of the spirit of sacrifice?
JT In sacrificing yourself you are ready to see it in Christ because, whatever God would help you to be, He would lead you to see it in Christ. Everything is there. That is why John is distinguished here. He sees it in Christ. It is not a question of God telling him of this Person. The Spirit coming down marks Him off — “Upon whom”; but it was not done yet. He had eyes for that.
DR John was a voice. He had the faculty to express himself. John carried that out.
JT It is the voice that cried, he articulated well. The word “cry” is remarkable. The Lord cried in chapter 7, but He cries in regard to the Spirit. He could give the Holy Spirit to those that came. If the Lord cries that [p. 410] way it is worth while hearing. In verse 15 John cried “This was he”. He wanted every one to know it.
JD Are we effective only so far as this principle of sacrifice is true?
JT That is what I was thinking. In the introduction of the book John the evangelist has John the baptist to begin with. If you have Christ in mind in your service you beget children as it were, if marked by sacrifice. You want to have the right idea. The Lord left the apostles the idea. All were to be like Himself.
JD I was wondering if the brethren knew that verse 29 and verse 35 is the same morrow.
JT “Again, on the morrow”.
JD John’s apprehension of Christ sacrificially has the power to beget children you spoke of.
JT Quite. “Again on the morrow”. These days begin at chapter 1: 29. We have children; the idea of persons is brought in right down the chapter. The Lord named one of them and changed his name, and the disciples who heard John speak followed Jesus. John said, “Behold the Lamb of God”; but they did not call Him Lamb of God. They are not taught as John is. We need to be taught. What I learn by divine teaching enables me to speak to Him and to call Him by right names. Scripture had not furnished the names of Christ then. They do not say, “Lamb of God”, they say, “Rabbi”. It brings out their state. There is no use in using appellations of Christ if not understood. Only as I understand can I use them. John the Baptist saw these men were not parrots; if they had been they would have used the same word as John did. What they convey is that they need teaching. There is a lack of teaching; we need teaching in our own souls.
JD The woman in John 4 says, “Sir, I see that thou art a prophet” then she says to the men, “Come, see a man who told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?” She was true to what she knew.
[p. 411] JT Exactly. He had told her He was Christ, and she was the only one He did tell. She might have said, ‘The Lord told me and nobody else’. She puts the question to them — “He told me all things I had ever done: is not he the Christ?” If you analyse that you will conclude that He is. She wants them to be on moral lines.
APe Is it a further thought in verse 36 than in verse 26? He is not standing but walking.
JT Quite so. The dispensation is set out in walking. In principle you must have the walk of the Person. Proverbs speaks of things comely in their going. The principle is set out there, it is the way you go. This is the way to go. At first He is standing, then coming, then Christ sacrificially which is the idea in His walk. His vicarious sacrifice is already set out in coming to John, verse 29. He is known in the gospel as the sacrificial Lamb. We are to take that on. He is the Model for us. If John sets it out it is sacrificially carried out. That is what verse 29 means. The sacrificial work is still there, for John is speaking of death finished, but still carries the idea of sacrifice. The whole dispensation is impregnated with the thought of that. They do not say “Lamb of God” they say, ‘We are not equal to that, we have to be taught that’. They say, “Rabbi”.
JL Have you in mind that the teaching of John was before the witness of the Spirit as a dove from heaven?
JT Of John the Baptist. He was instructed wonderfully to be what he was. These two disciples do not pretend to know what he knew. I use terms I understand. When young my measure is that I need teaching. The eunuch says, ‘I do not understand, how can I if somebody does not show me?’ Your thought is that the first impression the Spirit of God would put on the soul is the principle of sacrifice.
JT The 36th verse carries the idea best — the actual [p. 412] vicarious death of Christ carried down to us; teaching comes in there. The two disciples represent them all. To come into these things we must be taught; not by John the Baptist, but by Jesus.
JD The appreciation of Jesus as the Lamb of God fortified John.
JT He had some apprehension of Christ before the time, you might say; as it says of those in verse 13, “who have been born”. All would have some apprehension of Christ, but he did not have it fully till he saw the Holy Spirit descending. Apprehension objectively is not enough. He must see the action of the Spirit which confirms, “Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him, he it is who baptises with the Holy Spirit”.
JD It was a wonderful testimony of John to Christ.
JT See how thoroughly he was fitted. The two disciples do not pretend to know what he knew, only initially. They say, as interpreted, “Teacher” meaning ‘this Man can teach us’ for they needed to be taught. They did not say they were servants of John and so were instructed; they knew they were not.
JHC If we serve in correspondence to the work in us we would be marked by personality.
JT If these two had been occupied with themselves they would say, ‘We will just use the same title as our present teacher’ and they would miss the whole point. They did not say “Lamb of God”. They were not copyists; they say something of their own. They call Him “Rabbi”. Not as Judas did which was in a religious sense, but in the sense of being Teacher. There are many rabbis, but they meant what the word means — the only One who could teach them. They did not want the Lord to stand there to teach them, but they said, “Where abidest thou?” to get home teaching among the family.
JD Would you say that was important? [p. 413] In listening to you your desire would be that, in listening, it would beget in us the desire for teaching from the Lord. You do what you can, but after all we are taught by the Lord.
JT You begin with yourself. These two men each had entity; though John was greater, they were going to have a place in the mind of God. But then how? By spiritual originality, which is your impression of Christ. He took account of these two men to make them great, so they have to be taught the curriculum of the truth. They say, “Rabbi” for He could teach them, “Where abidest thou?” The Lord says, “Come and see”. He does not give the name of the house, but you follow up your thought. The Lord says, ‘See where I am’, You get the thought yourself; you have to be original.
JD To keep in touch you must be in living exercise. We could have you off at our finger tips, but that would not bring is to the Lord.
JT You start in a new system and you begin in the first grade. I bow and say, “Teacher” but I want to get it all. They say, ‘Where do you abide?’ They want to know where He lives and how He lives. Every servant ought to be looked at in that way. What marks him?
JL Being taught by Him would be greater than the walk.
JT Yes, it is not knowledge, but ‘Where do you abide’? A lecturer in a college does not live in the college; he might be great in his lectures but be far away in managing his house. They want to know where He abides. He says, “Come and see”. He does not say, ‘I cannot ask you now’. This is the line of the gospel. The Lord says, “Come” — you can go home with Him right away.
FV Would being taught be the result of any ministry? You have to go to the Lord as Teacher afterward.
JT Quite so. Go and see where He abides. You [p. 414] have seen Him here by those who represent Him in any way. You see great things in meetings; you want to find out where these things are.
JHC Is that principle seen in Paul speaking to Timothy, “Thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience”, 2 Timothy 3: 10.
JD We get things for ourselves.
JT We get them from the Lord.
JD We may pick up phrases.
JT Mary of Magdala in John 20 is the other end of this thread. “Rabboni” is, so to speak, ‘teach me’.
JD Taking it in a light way we do not get it.
JT We want to get it. Be original, not trying to bring in novelties. This word “Rabbi” with these two is original. John the Baptist had not used it, where did they get it? It is a common word, but in their mouths it is not an ordinary word, but, ‘we need teaching from You’. “Rabboni” means, ‘I have been taught by Him already’. These two cannot say that. Mary did.
LES Andrew filled up the matter as there was increase of light in his soul beyond the idea of “Rabbi” — “We have found the Messias”.
JT Would that not be that there had been some progress in their souls?
LES Teachability lays the foundation of spirituality. You feel brethren are seeking to take it on, but underlying that is being spiritual.
JT It is not simply taking up the word but expressing the sense of needing teaching. You need to be taught. Education is not simply the use of words, the spirit is attached to it. If you want to be sophisticated in the world you must be taught in it. Here it is the lowliness of John the Baptist in the presence of Jesus; and in the presence of this the two men say “Rabbi” and then, “Where abidest thou?” He sees what is in their hearts and He says, “Come and see”.
[p. 415] JD The two disciples hear and follow, but Jesus having turned and seeing them following says, “What seek ye?” After a meeting like this, it may be we have not understood the sacrificial thought sufficiently and we get to the Lord. He sees us taking the matter up; do we gather that from this verse? We resolve to know God better. We have listened and made up our minds to follow; we come under the notice of the Lord.
JT Turning and following means they committed themselves to heaven; but not only that, I have to get into the thing. Mark says, “Repent and believe in the glad tidings”. It is ‘believe it in principle’. I must be ready to look into the thing, then I get the real thing. First believe, it is a principle. If I believe on Jesus, I have committed myself to that, believe in Him, my soul is brought into power.
LES The idea, “We have found the Messias” would involve that it would come in in power.
JT That is after they have been there. That is how it works out. They come and see where He abides and abide with Him that day, it is about the tenth hour. Andrew was one of the two, he first finds his own brother Simon and says, ‘There is no doubt about it, He is the Christ’. That is to say they actually found Him. Follow the thing up! They do not say ‘We have found the Son of God’ or, ‘We have found the Teacher’, they say “We have found the Messias”, but they found Him on those lines. “And he led him to Jesus. Jesus looking at him said, Thou art Simon, the son of Jonas; thou shalt be called Cephas”. Peter does not doubt the matter as Nathanael did. Cephas interpreted is “stone”. Now we have reached solid ground. Stone is a solid material; that is the idea. The knowledge of the Messias which interpreted is “Christ” brings us on to solid ground.
JD In verse 42, “Jesus looking at him” — the footnote says, ‘looking carefully’ — there is such a thing as [p. 416] coming under the distinct scrutiny of the Lord. He is satisfied the matter is there. All come under that scrutiny.
JT We do not get off. We might pass muster among the brethren, but not with the Lord. You can hardly get this incorporated in the other gospels. This is to gather things up to show the initial feature of the dispensation where their gathering now is for the new order of things arrived at in a suitable manner.
JL Would what is spoken to Peter involve what the two disciples are taught?
JT It involves more. He does not call them ‘Cephas’. He says, “Thou shalt be” not, “Thou art”.
APe Is the thought of children addition?
JT This is gathering for the universe. He was not that yet, he was that potentially. You have the initial idea of stability. You are not carried away by every wind of doctrine.
JD This alludes to His deity. He can change names.
JT We are in the centre of things now. We have Simon called Cephas. He is potentially suitable. We are not washed away by every flood. It is going to stand.