READINGS ON HEBREWS (11)
READINGS ON HEBREWS (11)
BTF Would you say that this chapter is substantiating the closing verses of the last chapter, “The just shall live by faith”, Hebrews 10:38?
FL I think so. We might wonder what purpose the record of these Old Testament saints filled, had they not been assembled in this way; the accumulated light brings forth the fulness of the testimony in Christ. We see that every working of God had Christ in view.
AFM Would you say that the chapter is constructive? You were speaking of there being an outline of the men of faith from the beginning of the Old Testament dispensation, to the end before the Lord came; has the Spirit of God put these men together in moral order?
FL I think so; the Spirit of Christ was in them. It is not only that they did things, as we would say, on the principle of faith, but that they did them under the direct impulse of the Spirit of Christ, as Peter suggests in his first epistle, and so the tracing of the line through would show, that from the outset to the end, in relation to the testimony, God was keeping alive before Him what came out in Christ alone in its fulness. In that way it was accumulative; what came out in Abel and Enoch was carried on to Noah, and so on right through.
WHC The scripture speaks of Moses in that respect, that he esteemed “the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt”.
FL So that the preaching of Noah was really the preaching of Christ.
GAT Would you say why the writer does not mention Adam [p. 167] here?
FL He is illustrating the spiritual principle which governs the testimony, and Christ was the testimony, and therefore he begins with the one who, having light as to the mind of God, dies for righteousness. His was the first voice that expressed Christ in that way. Adam, while doubtless coming in in the grace of God, is not connected with the line of the testimony.
ANW In that sense I suppose Adam passed out for sin, but Abel passed out for righteousness.
FL So that two prominent things which come out in Christ, righteousness and life, are principles seen in Abel, of whom it is said, “having died, he yet speaks”. He loved the mind of God and he died for that very cause, thus his voice becomes a voice in the power of life. It is easy to see how those things are connected with Christ.
AFM I was wondering whether there were not two leading thoughts in the chapter: The worlds “framed by the word of God”, and then the introduction of man: a world pleasurable to God, and a people to fill it according to Himself. Would you say that?
FL I think so. The clue to the chapter is evidently at the end of the previous one, that while there had been a worldly system in connection with the tabernacle and the like, that is seen not to have been the line on which God worked from the outset. “The just shall live by faith” Hebrews 10:38. As to faith, the word only occurs once in the Old Testament, but the thing itself was the motive power from the very outset; the light which ever was before them was a new Man in a new sphere, God’s Man in the world to come.
BTF It has been said that faith is light from God in the soul, but one would like a little more than that. I think that we might say that it is light from God in the soul made operative.
FL Yes. Faith is the response of the renewed [p. 168] nature to the One who is faithful, God, who sees things through to their proper issue supporting and maintaining by light and spiritual energy. The light thus becomes a power to live, it gets its character from Him. “God is faithful”, 1 Corinthians 10:13.
BTF The words mentioned at the beginning of the verse are very striking, first the word ‘substantiating’ and then the word ‘conviction’.
FL Yes, in the previous chapter, speaking of God, he says, “He is faithful who has promised”, Hebrews 10:23. The attitude on the part of God when sin came in was that of promise. He promised in connection with Christ, His attitude was that He would see the thing through. Therefore, everyone in the line has a footing in coming to God, “he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him”.
AFM The opening verse is not a definition of faith, but rather what it does.
ANW The definition just repeated might as well stand until we can get a better one, things are done under a governing principle, which cannot be proved to sight and sense.
FL That is it; Mr. Raven helped us quite a bit when he pointed out that faith is that confidence in God which believes that He is, and that what He presents to faith it is impossible to verify in natural ways. We have to take it on revelation. Men tell us as to the creation of things we see, that they have all evolved, but the word of God tells us that they are the product of the word of God; therefore, the two ideas are directly opposed. What comes as light from God in the way of revelation cannot be verified by the natural mind, and therefore you must believe that He is and that He will give His own spiritual answer to the confidence in Himself. We are told the worlds are the product of the breath of His mouth, “He spoke, and it was done; he commanded,
and it stood fast”, Psalm 33:9. You cannot prove that, but you can believe it.
AFM Otherwise it would not be faith.
DMR You were saying that it is in God’s mind to lead us on, that we may apprehend Christ in a new scene. Stephen is presented in that line, as one who died for righteousness. He looked steadfastly into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
FL He helps us to understand that “the foundation of God standeth sure”, 2 Timothy 2:19. The measure of what we are and what we have is our measure of growth in the knowledge of God. Those whose names are assembled here had the foundation of God built in their souls, they came to God and they believed that He is.
JEH I suppose we cannot transmit faith. We were speaking of the natural mind and that it cannot understand these things.
FL You can help me in a spiritual way as I see the working of your faith, how it is operative, and so here the apostle lays down a principle, it is not law and it is not works, but “the just shall live by faith”, Hebrews 10:38. The principle is not new, for God has never worked on any other line, and the testimony has never been preserved on any other line; and we are raised up to be brought in upon that line.
GAT It is interesting that when the Lord spoke to Simon about the woman, He spoke about what she did, and when He spoke to the woman, He spoke of her faith. James speaks about our works; the apostle Paul speaks about our faith.
FL It is foolish to speak about faith unless there is the subjective work which answers to it. Rahab would never have got into this line if the light which came to her had not revolutionised her. The light made her a traitor naturally and exposed her to death,
[p. 170] but it brought her under a new rule. That is how faith works.
ANW Would you not think that the emphasis is on the life, “the just shall live by faith” Hebrews 10:38? Referring to Rahab, it says of her that she dwells in Israel until this day.
FL That helps. We get in the New Testament this quotation from Habakkuk three times, and each time the emphasis is on a different word. In Romans 1: 17 the emphasis is on the “just”, but there are none, it is “no, not one”. If the just live by faith, where will you find them? They will have to be produced before they can live by faith. Then in Galatians 3 it is faith in contrast to the law, “for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified”, Romans 3:20. And here in Hebrews it is contrasted with dead works and a dead order of things, and the emphasis is on “live”, “the just live”; that helps, I think.
AFM This idea of living by faith had continued; they never went back nor broke down, as we speak, but are viewed here in perfection. I was going to ask if there is any advance upon the first three in the next four mentioned.
FL I would hesitate to say that there is advance, but I think there is a different aspect. We reach a supreme point in Enoch and we have a different idea in Abraham; in fact, more than one idea, and then we have another idea in Moses, but really it takes the assemblage of the whole thing to make up the line of what we follow as the testimony.
BTF Have you any thought regarding those who lived before and those who lived after the flood? Abel, Enoch and Noah; and then we have Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and so forth.
FL I think before the flood things are viewed on individual lines, and that Abel indicates the blessed Lord coming and taking up the rights of God. He might have evaded the consequences, but he [p. 171] maintained them to death. And he gave a voice which still lives, which we hear. And then Enoch comes on the line of that which was so pleasurable to God that He can say in His sovereignty, Here is something that shall not go through death. Noah is figurative of Christ in that he builds an ark to the saving of his house; but incidentally in doing that he condemns the world that then was. If it is condemned something better must be brought in, so that with Abraham we have a new point of departure, which contemplates what is collective as well as what is individual: a call, effective in a multitude as numerous as the stars of the sky and the sands of the sea shore.
AFM Something like that was in my mind when I spoke of advance. What comes into view is a new world and, as you say, countless hosts who are to people that world.
FL So that which is collective embraces things in heaven and things on earth, families and the like. If Noah’s action condemned the world that then was, it is perfectly clear that God must replace that order of things, and therefore He replaces it by calling. “The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham”, Acts 7:2. In the call He opens to his sight what He Himself had in reserve, that is the world to come, and having come to God he says, as it were, I can live and die on that.
DMR In speaking of Abraham as the father of a people, it could be said of him, “he looked for a city which hath foundations”, he desired a place of security for the people, was that in his mind?
FL No doubt Abraham actually had the personal knowledge of man’s city, Babel, and the glory of it would be very impressive, but God furnished these men with more than perhaps we are disposed to think; He enlightened them as to a country, He gave them a vision of the city, He made Christ so [p. 172] consciously his resource that the Lord could say, “your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad”, John 8:56. That was something to act on, He gave them what was positive, and that was built in their souls.
CAM I was thinking that these just men, before they actually came into the reality of the thing, were passing through this time on the principle of faith; and what they did is to encourage us.
FL I think we can see that following that line the principle is invariable, that it must be on the line of surrender, sacrifice and suffering. God inaugurates it. He inaugurates it by the sacrifice which covered Adam, and by the promise of the Seed of the woman. If God starts that way, and makes His promise rest upon the sacrifice of Christ, it is unthinkable that the line can be carried through except by the saints going on the line of sacrifice and surrender; therefore, you find in their doings and in what they were that they were maintained in the power which overcame the condition which existed in their day, through sacrifice and suffering.
AFM Does not that largely obtain towards the end, while characterising them all through? They passed through all kinds of suffering and finally are seen in the caverns of the earth.
ANW I was thinking of the first three, their faith leads them out of the world. Even with Enoch, it does not say where he was found, it says he was not found, he was gone out of this world; and so with Abel, his faith led him out of it.
FL You may rely upon it that if Enoch lived three hundred and sixty-five years, with the world getting abhorrent to him, he did not have an easy time. Abraham had to suffer the loss of his country and his family.
AFM It says of Moses: “choosing rather to suffer affliction along with the people of God”.
GAT If a man lives godly today, he will suffer persecution.
BTF You were mentioning the fact that Abraham rejoiced to see Christ’s day, he saw it and was glad; then would you say that you get a new start in Isaac, because”in Isaac shall thy seed be called”? Genesis 21:12. It has been suggested that it had reference to the weaning of Isaac; so that in the weaning of Isaac we have the figure of God’s beloved Son coming on the scene.
FL That is true, but what is conveyed in the expression to my mind is not only the figure of Christ, but the light of Christ; so that Abraham discerned Christ in connection with Isaac; he rejoiced, and “he looked for a city which hath foundations”, so that when Isaac was given to him, and the joy of weaning him was there, he had the light of Christ before him. I think what we get throughout this line is that there was positive light from God as to what He was going to bring in — a city and a country, a new order of things in connection with a new man.
JEH Are we to understand that the wonderful revelation which Abraham had was the result of suffering and surrender on his part?
FL The starting point with Abraham was “the God of glory”; that was the moving power, Stephen tells us that in Acts 7:2. Then he takes up a pathway which meant that he lost everything he ever had; and henceforward his pathway is one of a solitary pilgrim. He has lost his life, and the compensation is with the faithfulness of the God who promises; he is a prophet, the psalmist identifies him as a prophet. Peter tells us that the prophets had the Spirit of Christ, “which was in them”, 1 Peter 1:11.
GAT Would you say that in surrender you find faith tested to the limit?
FL Undoubtedly, but do you not think that the great thing suggested in surrender is fruitfulness?
[p. 174] That is, Abraham is called, and there is to be an expansion as the stars of the heavens and the sand upon the sea shore. Therefore Sarah comes in on the line of faith (verse 11), because it was through her that there was to be this mighty multiplication, that the barren woman who had no children has more than she that had a family; so that looked at from that standpoint, Sarah is the mother not only of Israel, but of the assembly; that is, all the fruitfulness has come out of Sarah’s faith.
DMR I was wondering if that was the reason why Jerusalem is spoken of as “Jerusalem which is above ... which is the mother of us all”, Galatians 4: 26.
FL So that “Jerusalem which is from above is free, which is the mother of us all”, (Galatians 4: 26) and also “Abraham, who is the father of us all” (Romans 4:16); Abraham is not a Jewish father only, he is the father to everyone who is of faith. Therefore you have here together in Hebrews father and mother, and as a product a family as great as the stars in the heavens for multitude, and as countless as the sands on the sea shore.
Rem I am glad you suggested that, because if the call comes, fruitfulness will follow in response to it.
AFM So the thought of pilgrimage is extended in the next two, Isaac and Jacob.
GAT According to your statement the Christian company is not as small as we think it is.
FL How large do you think it is? I have always thought it was a very big company; and I have a sincere belief that the Lord has many millions of those who belong to Him on the earth at the present time.
Ques Why is Sarah’s faith mentioned here, when she laughed at the men who brought the report?
FL She laughed twice; she laughed first in unbelief, but she got light from God, and she believed in the God who was able to make that live which was [p. 175] dead.
WLP Is Abraham singled out as being the father of the faithful because revelation and increase had been given to him?
FL He is singled out because whatever God was pleased to give to him he responded to; no matter what the course was nor what the sacrifice, he rose to it and ever met the mind of God, so that, like Enoch, he was pleasurable to God. The answer of God to his faith was that he should be glorified, so to speak, as the father of the faithful. Both Romans and Galatians, gentile epistles, refer to it.
AFM What this chapter shows is, that all these people waited on the incoming of the assembly; they passed off the scene in faith; would you say a word about that?
FL It says at the beginning of the chapter, “for in the power of this (faith) the elders have obtained testimony”; it is testimony, and I think we can see that where sin and the power of death had come in to challenge God, God must answer and He answers by establishing a line of life which shall be unbroken until the world to come is introduced. I think we are justified in saying that Christ was ever in view with God in an unbroken line, and that is the testimony up to the time of Christ, and thus viewed, it was a divine necessity. “I called him alone”, i.e., Abraham. Supposing he had not been called, the thought is there that the field would be abandoned to the power of sin; but the call of God was wrapped up in maintaining it. So there is formed here an unbroken chain, link after link from Abel to the coming of Christ, each link different in its aspect, but every link expressive of Christ.
AFM All these waited for the assembly until what was in faith and testimony should really find its perfect answer.
FL Yes; of course it got its perfect [p. 176] answer in Christ.
GAT It is said God spoke in their prophets.
FL He had spoken through prophets; but lives were lived, men did things and they suffered; women also, and we are told they did not accept deliverance. At any time they might have swerved, but the point is they did not swerve, they maintained in all energy the light in their souls which God had given to them.
BTF Would you say that leaving Abraham there is a new departure in Moses, that is the people leaving Egypt and going on to the promised land? The people must be brought out of Pharaoh’s power and brought out to the mountain where they can serve God.
FL Just so; therefore the apostle goes on to say, “By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he persevered as seeing him who is invisible. By faith he celebrated the passover”, and so on.
CAM From what you say evidently our attention is to be called to Christ Jesus as the One who is the Beginner and the Finisher of the whole thing; so it seems that the whole history of time takes on a noted different meaning than a mere matter of history, the Old Testament dispensation had all this meaning.
FL So that when we turn to the Old Testament we find comparatively few out of the multitude of those who really served God, just as there are comparatively few of the miracles and signs of the Lord; but they are assembled with divine skill and they give a perfect presentation of Christ. Therefore, they supply us with the key by which we can interpret the Old Testament Scriptures; and if we do not use that key, the Old Testament Scriptures are books of history, or philosophy, or moral teaching, and not the light of the testimony.
ANW The chapter does not cover the whole of the Old Testament, does it? There are remarkable gaps, are there not?
FL I was thinking that it brings out the moral [p. 177] features connected with the line of the testimony; and there is at the end of the chapter a general summarising, as though he would say what has been specified was worked out in the many. The line of the testimony, as I understand it, is always connected with present acceptance of the light of God and a readiness to take the consequences, and thus the ground is prepared for God to give the light as to the next thing that He is going to do. The Spirit of God brings out in the last verses the whole assemblage of those in the testimony who have gone the way of suffering.
ANW Then he reaches a point where he says, “What more do I say?” He then lists four of the judges, David, Samuel, and the rest is in generalities.
FL It seems to me as though the Spirit of God said, I have given you the key of spiritual interpretation, and applied it in these cases, now similarly apply what has already been given upon the same principle to all others, and see in them that which is characteristic of Christ, and you have got your answer. In that way it leads right up to us, “that they without us should not be made perfect”.
AFM There are six names given, and then the prophets are brought in, which seems to cover from the Judges right up to Malachi.
FL So that we get the Lord Himself, “beginning at Moses and all the prophets he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself”, Luke 24:27.
CAM I suppose the others that the writer had not time to mention, we shall have knowledge of their lives in the city by and by; but we have the drift of the thing now.
FL Take a characteristic case — Daniel; it is easy to see the Spirit of Christ in him, and the way in which he becomes a connected link in the chain. And so Zerubbabel is clearly brought in as a figure of Christ in Haggai; it is the universal key of [p. 178] spiritual interpretation. I think the Spirit of God gives us certain links and then the apostle says, I am not going to work it out in detail, go to it for yourselves.
GAT What place have those persons enumerated here in connection with the assembly?
FL As far as I understand it, they are waiting to bask in and to enjoy the light that will shine upon them from the heavenly city, and the nations will come from the east and from the west and sit down with Abraham and the fathers in the kingdom; they will see the marvellous glory of God and of Christ in the assembly, but as regards the continuation of things here upon earth, we have reached a point where Christ having come and the Spirit of God having come, we have things “made perfect”.
AFM The Lord speaks about being perfected on “the third day”, Luke 13:32.
FL So even the kingdom is the kingdom of the heavens; the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than the greatest of those who belong to the order which was passing out. John the baptist was the culminating light of that which had been, but the least in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he. And so chapter 12: 22 - 24 brings out most beautifully the coordination of everything that there has been in any dispensation or everything that will be, and fits them together in one supreme system of glory. They are not detached or detachable, in a way each fits in to complete the system of glory. The previous chapter, following the moral order outlined, suggests the principle, “the just shall live by faith”, (Hebrews 10:38) then these are assembled as a cloud of witnesses and our eyes are turned from them, from that cloud of witness surrounding us, our eyes are turned to the Beginner and Finisher of faith, Jesus Christ, who is “set down at the right hand of God”, Hebrews 12:2. That is what it leads up to, and if you would contemplate [p. 179] Him, you will see that every one of these were touched with the light of Christ.
Rem We read that without faith it is impossible to please God.
FL The pleasure of His will is wrapped up in purpose and counsel, we are brought into that line.
ANW The things that God has willed please Him as sacrifice.
FL So we have “that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service”, Romans 12:1.
Ques And that is the work of faith, is it not?
AP On the mount of transfiguration we see Moses and Elias, they must surely have had a great place in the mind of God.
FL They surely had, both Moses and Elias had suffered, and had loved the people of God deeply. Nobody loved them like them, unless it be Paul, save the blessed Lord Himself; and the Lord, when He would show the unity of His system, would link up that which is past with the present. The kingdom has a bearing upon the assembly, He brings those two illustrious servants into a place of association and glory, saying to us, as it were, This is the kind of answer that I have in reserve for reproach and suffering. It is characteristic.
AMcN I was wondering if there was any distinction between seeking a city and seeking a country. The call having been received by us, and having become effective in our souls, we shall be led into the attitude of pilgrims, and shall be seekers of the country.
FL We can only take up suffering and reproach in virtue of the citizenship and dignity of the city. Thus Psalm 87 brings before us that to be of Zion is a great thing, so that it has been said, “Jerusalem which is above ... is the mother of us all”, Galatians 4: 26. If we know that we have the city, we can [p. 180] take up, in the power of faith, any conditions which the testimony might render necessary. I think it is a principle that the baptism of glory precedes the baptism of the water of death. The Lord comes down from the mount of transfiguration and says, Now we are going down to death.
AMcN We do not stop at seeing the city, do we?
FL So that in virtue of origin in Christ, we trace our lineage unto mount Zion, unto the heavenly city. This world does not see — it is not intended for them to see, it would be like casting pearls before swine — our heavenly citizenship is a precious secret to us, it is the power carrying us through reproach and suffering and obscurity.