READINGS AND ADDRESSES AT INDIANAPOLIS, 1924 - READING (1)
READINGS AND ADDRESSES AT INDIANAPOLIS, 1924 - READING (1)
John 11:49 - 52; John 12:31 - 33; Luke 24:13 - 43; Acts 1:1 - 5
HG When you speak of gathering, have you in your mind the way in which we assemble?
JT Well, what would lead up to that. The eleventh chapter of John shows the object in view. The children of God should be gathered. The twelfth chapter is the Lord’s own formal announcement in view of the judgment of the world, which involves scattering. In view of that, He would be the centre of attraction. He would draw all unto Him as lifted up. Then Luke 24 shows His own service in gathering. The beginning of the Acts shows the saints “assembled”, and He with them; there we have a formal allusion to the assembly.
GWW If there is to be a gathering, the Lord must become the object and gathering centre; otherwise there is nothing to gather to.
JT And then, Luke 24 gives His own service in gathering us. John gives us dignity to be conformed to the position in view. Jacob says, in connection with the corruption in his three elder sons, Reuben, Simeon and Levi, “I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel”, Genesis 49:7.
RSS Does that refer to the position in the land of those three tribes?
JT While they had a great inheritance, the Levites had no united territory, they were scattered in forty eight cities. Simeon is not mentioned in Deuteronomy 33, meaning, I suppose, that he was lost in the land. He had his inheritance in Judah, and is not much spoken of after the division of the kingdom. Reuben, of course, was beyond the Jordan. “I will divide them in Jacob and scatter them in Israel”, (Genesis 49:7) had its complete fulfilment after the death of Christ; Luke 21:24. Peter writes “To the sojourners of the dispersion”, (1 Peter 1:1) but notwithstanding the dispersion, those to whom he wrote were regarded as gathered spiritually. They were regarded as “A spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God by Jesus Christ”, 1 Peter 2:5.
HG I was thinking that not only Christ would gather His own, but that Christ Himself is the centre.
JT Hence, “Let Reuben live and not die”, Deuteronomy 33:6. The brethren must be in life. That is, I apprehend, how we must come out as an assembly. And then, “Hear, Jehovah, the voice of Judah and bring him unto his people” (Deuteronomy 33:7) which would be the order. Life in a voice, and desire, and then Judah brought to his people. We are brought to our own people. When a believer is brought in, truly gathered, he finds himself at home. We had a sister not long since, who had found no rest for the sole of her foot. She came to the meeting. ‘From the moment I sat down’, she said, ‘I felt at home’. She was one who had obviously been brought to her people.
GWW Christ does not only become the gathering centre, but becomes the gatherer.
JT John’s account of the Lord’s death shows that the Lord had become attractive. There is attraction in Him as “lifted up”. Notwithstanding the ignominious character of the death, people came to Him.
GWW It is important to know that the blessed Lord has assumed a new condition. He has thus become the gathering centre.
JT He gathers. They were drawn to Him, although for a moment they were all scattered. “I will smite the Shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered abroad”, Mark 14:27.
GWW I think, in taking up a new condition altogether in resurrection, He became the gathering [p. 202] point of the scattered ones. In His life here among His own He was not the gathering centre, but in the new condition, He could then become the gathering centre.
AFM In John 11 and 12 we have the prophecy of the high priest and then the Lord’s own word as more general.
JT I think the evangelist adds to the words of Caiaphas: The latter says that “Jesus should die for that nation”. The addition is the evangelist’s: “Not for the nation only, but that he should also gather together into one the children of God who were scattered abroad”. That was what the Lord had in mind when dying. Then His own statement in the next chapter announces the judgment of this world, and that if He should be lifted up, He would draw all to Him.
AFM Does the lifting up refer to the cross there?
JT The character of His dying: “Signifying what death”, and His position as “lifted up” — the power of attraction would be great enough to draw all unto Him.
BTF Is the power of attraction in the crucified Christ, or the risen and glorified Christ?
JT It is as risen. In the new condition, He is the gathering centre, but He refers here to the kind of death He should die.
GWW It is to the crucified Christ we come. He cannot be a new centre until He has come by water and blood. As coming by water and blood (now in the new condition) He has become the gathering centre.
JT 1 Corinthians insists on the cross. It contemplates the saints as gathered, but as gathered, as it were, through the testimony of the cross. Gathering other than this admits of the flesh.
AL The judgment of God had to be executed [p. 203] before there could be permanent gathering. Gathering is on this ground. There is no room for the flesh. God has a new gathering point through the cross.
JT Yes. It is such an One as this. “This, he said, signifying what death be should die”. Am I prepared to come to the One that has died in that way?
GWW I think we see what was involved in His coming by water and blood. I am prepared to take new ground as apart from all that condition of things to which He had died; we are thus on new ground, in redemption, in the presence of God.
JT And all that attaches to the flesh, whatever it might be, I leave behind; all was terminated judicially in the death of Christ; Numbers 19:6.
GWW That is most important.
JT At the cleansing of the leper, they were to bring cedar, and scarlet and hyssop. There were two birds, the one was to be slain, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet and hyssop dipped with the living bird in the blood of the slain bird and then the living bird let go into the open field. You have there a type of Christ alive and free, having died. The world in its varied features, is terminated in His death. As gathered, we are outside its influence.
GWH I suppose you would say there was attraction in the cross of Christ.
JT One has to go that way. “I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die”. “What death”. My mind is now arrested as to the kind of death He was about to die.
AFM You are attracted first. He is the gathering point for all, and then you learn in His being lifted up how all sin has been disposed of: the cedar, the scarlet, and hyssop, etc. The great point here is that He is the [p. 204] attraction for all.
JT He attracts as having died thus.
GWW But then the death of Christ is not in itself sufficient. The work of the Spirit brings that home to our hearts. One feels that the work of the Spirit makes it good in our souls, and one would seek to realise the meaning of the cross of Christ.
HG There is that in the nature of His death which appeals to the hearts of those who love Him — is that your thought? The way that love took to express itself appeals to your heart.
JT As the apostle Paul says, “God forbid that I should glory save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world”, Galatians 6:14.
AL What is the force of “Lifted up from the earth”?
JT Well, I think it was like the court of the tabernacle. He was between earth and heaven; there was no hiding of the shame. The thing was a spectacle to all. It was a spectacle to angels and to men. The death of Christ was public. The serpent of brass was lifted up on a pole; that is referred to in the third chapter, but in the tabernacle, I think, the outer court was visible to all. It was public. The cross was scandalous as men regard it. But what they regard as scandal is your boast. We are gathered in the light of the cross, and anything inconsistent with that must be refused. Paul said, “I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death; for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels and to men”, 1 Corinthians 4:9 and so on.
AL There is no room for fleshly show in the gathering of the saints. The cross was the last public place where Christ was seen.
RSS It was typified in the brazen altar, it being in the court. It was the public place.
JT He went down, in the world’s judgment, [p. 205] as a malefactor. The last sight of Him they got was as crucified.
BTF When Paul speaks of glorying in the cross, does he not immediately link with it the blessed effects of the cross, “Whereby the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world” (Galatians 6:14)?
JT There was nothing left. So that there is no room for worldly show in the assembly at all. The position is one in the eyes of the world scandalous or a stumbling-block. Thus the Lord’s supper is a testimony to His death.
AL Would the hyssop indicate the poor in their hunger, the cedar the rich, and the scarlet the reigning as kings, that is, there was not the acceptance of the cross in the Corinthian company?
GWW We have not sufficient apprehension of the gathering power of the cross; the Spirit would draw our attention to it, I am sure, bringing in all the conditions that are to the pleasure of God in the assembly.
JT We have to go that way, that is the thing. We must not evade “the scandal of the cross”, Galatians 5:11.
GWW It would save a great deal of trouble if our souls faced it; for there is a gathering purpose in His death. It would raise the exercise as to why He died and I have to accept that, setting aside all else. Thus I shall bring into the new position that which is morally connected with Him, refusing an order of things to which He died.
WB-s Are the systems with which men today are identified an illustration of this?
JT Quite. David was an outlaw from Saul’s point of view, but he was the great attractive centre for those who loved him; so that those who are gathered to Christ are under Christ’s reproach.
GWW Nabal, representing the old system, cast upon David the reproach of a man who had run away [p. 206] from his master. We have to accept the reproach heaped upon us.
RSS It is really that we are to go outside the camp and come under reproach.
JT “Bearing his reproach”, Hebrews 13:13. The bearing of it is not irksome to one who loves Christ. Moses esteemed the reproach of Christ as greater riches than the treasures in Egypt.
WLP What does “all” (John 12: 32) refer to?
JT It is abstract. As lifted up, Christ is the only gathering centre.
WLP And in coming to Him all that I am after the flesh has to go.
GWW All this has to be kept in view if we are to be His servants in connection with gathering.
JT The reference has been made to David. What came before the rupture with Saul was that “David’s place was empty”, 1 Samuel 20:25. That is emphasised.
GWW Therefore the believer can have nothing to do with the great associations that are in the world.
JT Yes, David’s seat is empty, he is not there. That is what is emphasised at the rupture between Saul and David, and it was the time of the “New moon” — that is, it was Israel’s opportunity. Israel ought to have shone then. As I was saying this morning, “David arose from the side of the south”, 1 Samuel 20: 41. This was a favourable quarter. It was Israel’s opportunity to recover themselves even after their great crime. If they repented God would send Christ back to them. But they refused, and so instead of God sending Him back, you see the mystery brought out; the full light of the assembly is brought out, and Israel is dispersed. There is mystery connected with gathering now. It is not of the world. The Lord coming in in resurrection brings in what is mysterious, a spiritual order of things. He is not seen by the world, but the saints see Him; Acts 1 [p. 207] shows that He was seen during forty days by the apostles and that He “assembled with them”. Luke 24 serves to bring out the Lord’s services in gathering His own at the outset. The chapter is longer than any of the closing chapters of the gospels. The saints were gathered by influences and principles unknown among men in the world.
GWW One is anxious that neither of those two points should be lost to us. Christ brings in a new order of things. The light must reach the soul of Christ in a new and glorious position. Righteousness shines in Him there. Those gathered according to God are in accord with all this — for this there must be a work of the Spirit in them. Christ has a place among such.
JT David’s seat was not empty in the cave!
GWW God has given Him a very high seat in heaven; His absence from this world indicates the moral state that exists there. But the soul of the believer comes into the light of Christ now shining from another sphere altogether.
JT He “Being assembled with them” (Acts 1:4) shows that He has a place in the assembly, although His seat as regards Israel, is empty.
GAT Luke 24 gives us another empty place.
JT Yes, the tomb. The women that came to the tomb and found it empty were affected. And the angels said unto them, “Why seek ye the living one among the dead? He is not here, but is risen. Remember how he spoke to you, being was yet in Galilee”, Luke 24:5,6.
GWW If we accept in our souls what has been said it would give the idea of gathering a more profound meaning.
HG It would mean that morally we are in the south land. He is shining in His power and we are under His influence.
RSS Referring to the two who were on their way to Emmaus, do you think there is a similar [p. 208] history in connection with every one of us who have found Him as the true centre? We get the record in regard to these two.
JT I am sure there is. These as typical. It is well to go over your history; in that way you get the confirmation of the work of God in you. Now these two were in difficult circumstances. There was a state of unbelief even among the apostles. The words of the women who brought word that the Lord was risen were “As an idle tale” (Luke 24:11) to them. The two left Jerusalem under those circumstances.
GWW Is that a soul-state with some Christians?
JT Well, I think it may illustrate the conditions that today prevail among the people of God. The state of those who are in the position of responsibility is such as to promote unbelief rather than faith.
HG The sons of the prophets wanted to send out an expedition to see if Elijah had been cast into some mountain spot; 2 Kings 2. They influenced even Elisha.
JT I think this circumstance (Luke 24) illustrates the conditions that prevail now among the people of God, extraordinary uncertainty existing even among genuine believers, with actual infidelity in the mass of professors. The refusal of the report of the women was an extraordinary thing. These women were well known to them and yet the apostles regarded their testimony as an idle tale. Peter, however, went to the sepulchre, and all that is left in him is wonderment. He wondered, and went home, and these two set out to Emmaus under these circumstances. All this illustrates what we have today, and we need not wonder in dealing with them at the difficulties that exist in people’s minds. It is much more difficult to gather now than it was some years ago. The difficulties have increased extraordinarily in the minds of Christians. Notwithstanding, the Lord’s attitude is the same, and the [p. 209] thing is to be in keeping with it. I think this chapter helps us as to how it is to be done. It says — “And it came to pass as they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus himself drawing nigh went with them; but their eyes were holden so as not to know him”, and so on that is, you must not antagonise, nor arouse prejudice in the minds of people, because there is a great deal current abroad today that you can go with heartily; and one can at least listen to what they say. Sometimes you get considerable encouragement on those lines — listening to what people have to say, and then you get your word in.
GWW They were, so to speak, going from the meeting here. They realised David’s seat was empty, but they did not know where He was. What we want is to lead them on from that to the apprehension of the position where Christ is to be found. Now you have something that will interest them.
JT Get them to a meeting where the word of God is ministered. “And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself”. So that the effort should be to get the people of God under the influence of spiritual ministry. Thus Christ will become a gathering centre to them.
AL “Jesus himself drew near, and went with them”.
JT He would serve all in this way, and there is not a believer that is not of interest to Christ.
AL That is most encouraging.
JT He is interested in all. He draws near to every one of us.
AL We are conscious of it.
JT In seeking to help souls it is important to hear what they have got to say. Then you will have an opportunity to say something. One would note the sympathy with which He serves. Luke brings this out. The Lord is aiming at the gathering of [p. 210] His people. They are being dispersed, they are going away from Jerusalem.
AL When the Lord gave Mary Magdalene a message to His brethren, He had gathering in view.
JT The service of gathering is more in keeping with Luke 24 than with John 20. There it is the disciples, they were within. It is the dignity of the persons. Luke is the house of God, what was seen here on earth in connection with the testimony. Mary told the disciples what the Lord said to her, but it was for these two to find the eleven. “The eleven” refer to where the authority of Christ is; the apostles represent the authority of Christ. This appears in what is said of Judah in Genesis 49. It says, “The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be”, Genesis 49:10. The eleven refer to the sceptre. If you get the hearts of the saints burning with a spiritual address, or ministry, the Lord becomes precious to them, and the next thing is, He must rule. These two are prepared for rule because “They found the eleven, and those with them gathered together”.
AL And what they were after was Himself.
JT He vanished, but they found the eleven and those that were with them gathered together, and He came there.
AFM I was struck with the difference between what they say about the sepulchre and what those who went there actually saw and found! “Two men ... in shining raiment”, (Luke 24:4) whereas these say that the same women had seen “A vision of angels”. There would be a difference between those two thoughts. What is the difference?
JT A vision of angels does not convey the nearness and sympathy that the thought in two men in [p. 211] shining garments does.
AFM Would the shining garments suggest a heavenly order of men?
JT Quite.
GWW As to those with whom we are in fellowship, one would be greatly exercised that they should be truly gathered.
JT A good thing to ask souls who seek to find fellowship is, Have you found “the eleven”? that is, Do you recognise and submit to the authority of the Lord?
GWW It lies at the root of everything.
WCR If the reproach of Christ was accepted, would it not simplify things very much? The cedar, the scarlet and the hyssop cast into the burning would indicate that everything that is of the world came down in the death of Christ.
JT The absence of these things among the saints involves reproach. There is nothing of worldly show in the house of God. How far away a huge cathedral is from the divine thought!
GWW Those who build them have not seen the bird let loose in the open field. The bird let loose indicates a new condition of things.
HG The way Paul preached and his whole manner of life were thoroughly consistent with the claim of the cross on him. Witness his manner of life and service in Corinth; Acts 18.
GWW While there is the privilege of the sanctuary in the assembly, there is the wonderful dignity of the new position in that the One who is the centre now of gathering, is the One God has raised to the highest place. God has given Him a seat at the very centre of everything.
RSS That would be in keeping with what is said of Judah in Genesis 49. Of him Shiloh should come, to whom the gathering of the people shall be.
JT The gospel announces Christ. It is remarkable He is announced as come of the seed of David [p. 212] according to the flesh, marked out Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of Jesus Christ our Lord. Then when Paul comes to the end of Romans, he said his desire was that they should be established “According to my glad tidings” (Romans 16:25) which involves Christ as He is in heaven. Because that was the Christ he announced, then there was “The preaching of Jesus Christ”, (Romans 16:25) which involves what He was on earth. The saint is established in the light of Paul’s gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, and the revelation of the mystery. The gathering involves all that — not only the Man that is announced but the mystery. It is a mysterious thing that you are brought to. That is founded really on the endings of the gospels: the ministration of Christ in the manner of His gathering His people together; the manner in which He assembled with them; that is what the believer has come to. But the first great feature is, Has one “found the eleven”? The eleven represent the authority of the Lord.
GWW You will not find the eleven until you have listened to and believed “the preaching of Jesus Christ”, (Romans 16:25); then one is ready for the eleven.
JT If He “has prevailed”. Judah prevailed among his brethren. If the Lord has come into your soul in that way, I think you are prepared now for the sceptre, and then what follows is the law, and Lawgiver. The law of His mouth — that is to say, He Himself speaks the principles by which we are to be governed. These are most important features of gathering. You have the sceptre and the Lawgiver. The “Lawgiver” now means that Christ governs the house of God.
WCR “A sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom”, Hebrews 1:8.
GWW You are prepared for it. It has completely set aside the workings of your own will and [p. 213] you are now ready to come entirely under this new rule in Him.
JT The Lord comes among the saints under those conditions. You know Him there. He is now definitely before you. I think that those who are thus gathered are outside the world.
GWW David’s seat is empty, but we have found Him and know Him in connection with another world. We know Him in the assembly.
HG Ultimately the great gathering to David began at Hebron, which would have the purpose of God in view.
CSP The next thing would be the joy?
JT The presence of the Lord involves that. What an immense thing this is! God meets conditions in the world. We have a company of people outside of it in complete independence of it. And they are there intelligently, so that He assembles with them Acts 1:4.
AL Verse 36 answers to that, and also John 20: 20.
JT What we may enjoy in the assembly.
Rem To get it clearly, He really is where we are.
JT Yes, Jesus Himself drew near; verse 16. Notice verse 35. They said, “The Lord is risen indeed and has appeared to Simon ... and how he was made known to them in the breaking of bread”. Then, as they were saying these things, He Himself stood in their midst. That is, He comes in under these circumstances.
GAT How do you connect these things with the morning meeting, and are these principles connected with meetings other than the morning meeting?
JT You see, they are now gathered. They found the eleven and those that were with them, and they were saying something, that is, He “has appeared to Simon”. That is in keeping with Luke. Simon had been erring, he had denied the Lord, and it is such a [p. 214] Lord as this we have to do with. He appeared to Simon. He was the one he appeared to, and yet Simon was the one that had denied Him. It inspires confidence in your heart as having to do with One like that. That was what the eleven were talking about. They were talking about the grace of the Lord. The Lord Himself comes in. That is our present portion.
AFM Now the point is, they saw the Lord. That is the important thing in the gathering. It puts them in spiritual movement.
JT The two from Emmaus told them that He was known of them in the breaking of bread. There are the two things; He is gracious, He takes account of erring ones, and He makes Himself known to His people in the breaking of bread.
Ques He did it in the house in Emmaus. Why?
JT So that they might return to the company at Jerusalem. And now He comes in saying to them, “It is I myself”. He is a real Man.
Ques What about the honeycomb?
JT The thought conveyed is that there should be mutuality among the people of God. A comb is formed by a number of bees.
JB The way in which He appears to Simon reveals the greatness of Christ’s heart.
WCR What is suggested in the fish?
JT I do not know whether it may not refer to the Lord’s sovereignty among His people. He commands all resources and takes persons hitherto unknown and uses them. These two features (mutuality and sovereignty) are recognised in the company.
GWW Our “morning” meetings are to be under these conditions. Christ must be with us and manifest Himself amongst us. The “morning” meeting is of no value otherwise.
JT [p. 215] He recognises the mutual side, the honeycomb. True enough, He was the Head, but He was with them as one of them.
AFM Would the thought of assembling suggest intelligence as well as affection?
JT I think this assembling with them came in at the end. Doubtless much had been repeated, but these forty days were wonderful days, history making days for those who formed the assembly. Then the two wave loaves were brought out. The forty days’ experience was to prepare them for the present assembly period, which involves mystery. We can never come into the truth of the assembly without the idea of mystery. Mystery is necessary, we must make up our minds for the mystery; there is a mysterious service going on all the time. The natural man cannot understand it.
GWW And if souls do not study the forty days, they do not make much progress. The Lord is known in the new condition. Do we recognise the immense importance of things as set forth in the forty days?
JT The appearance during these forty days of the Lord coming in to them through closed doors, and so on, would be embraced in the mysterious order of things into which we are brought.
RSS Would you connect the mysterious order of things with the Lord’s presence in our midst? Would you suggest why some of us have difficulty in regard to it? We should have in our souls the sense of who He is. Everything is perfectly possible to Him.
JT So to speak, He is let go into the open field. The world is now His domain, in which He operates. The first day of the week is for the Lord; it begins on Saturday night, to be very simple about it: the breaking of bread begins hours before we have it that is, in the eastern part of the world. For the Lord it is a long day. The first of the Acts helps you to understand the nature of the day. These things [p. 216] that we are dealing with are not theories but verities. He comes to the saints, to the assembly — “Behold he cometh, leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills”, (Song of Songs 2:8); He cometh. He comes to the saints, “He standeth behind our wall”, (Song of Songs 2:9); He attracts the saints in coming.
GWW What a different thought from looking at that from an academic standpoint! One feels what a terrible danger it is; in serving the Lord’s people you must attract them by presenting Christ in the same way that He Himself did.
RSS The importance of studying the Lord in the forty days when He was here going in and out among His disciples is obvious. We should learn Him in resurrection; is that your thought? So that with the principles gathered up thus the result is, you bring something out; that is, the private experience of the saints — two wave loaves.
GWW If we do not get something out of the forty days, we do not get the wave loaves.
AFM The wave loaves are the saints’ appreciation of Christ.
GAT Would you say something more — does the manner of the appreciation of Christ show that the saints are morally formed according to Christ, by the consideration of Him? That is an immense gain.
JT Quite.
AFM The measure of your formation is really the measure of your appreciation.
AL I suppose when Jesus stood in the midst, the whole company would be characterised by Him.
JT Yes. In principle, “Like Jesus in that place”.