THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (15)
[p. 341] THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (15)
JT I think the brethren know that at these readings we are still considering the subject of life. It is thought that we should look at John 5 at this time, where the thought of life is connected peculiarly with the divine Persons. The chapter stands connected with the remarkable sign which is recorded there, and which leads up to the great subject now before us, so that verse 17 says, “My Father worketh hitherto and I work”. The Father and the Son are introduced in this informal way by the Lord Himself, as working. The Father is mentioned first as working, and then the Son.
ANW Would you say the subject is in relation to divine Persons? Verse 26 says, “For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself”.
JT That is a striking evidence of what has been remarked, bringing the two Persons into our view as having life, each in Himself. The Father has given to the Son to have life in Himself. So that it is the economy that is in mind, not the relations of divine Persons in their abstract condition, but as come out into an administration where the Father comes first, then the Son, and then the Spirit; so that all proceeds from the Father, and if the Son has life in Himself, it is as given to Him by the Father. And what enters into this is the matter of quickening, which may be perhaps taken in its order. We have to keep in mind that the divine Persons are introduced in a specific way, and we can take each item relative to life by itself and compare it to see how it bears on the great subject of the chapter; that is, the Father and the Son operating here. So that the Lord says,
“[p. 342] Verily, verily, I say to you. The Son can do nothing of himself save whatever he sees the Father doing: for whatever things he does, these things also the Son does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does; and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will” (verses 19 - 21). So that the subject of quickening, bearing on our subject, comes into order here in its importance. It is a basic thought. We know that the Spirit quickens, too, and we learn earlier in this gospel that He operates in the new birth, chapter 3, but now it is the Father and the Son in this service, this work of quickening.
AR Does the thought of quickening suggest the idea of death in the person that is operated upon?
JT That is the idea. New birth is hardly that. It is not presented that way, but the need for quickening implies that the person is morally dead.
AR Is it like Ephesians 2 in that sense, that we, being dead in offences, have been quickened with the Christ?
JT It is the same truth only presented in John in relation to the Father and the Son. In Ephesians, it is God: “... because of his great love wherewith he loved us (we too being dead in offences,) has quickened us with the Christ, (ye are saved by grace,) and has raised us up together” (verses 4 - 6).
CAM Would you say how this links with the fact that the last Adam is a quickening Spirit?
JT Well, that is a statement made in 1 Corinthians 15 in relation to the great subject of that chapter; that is, the subject of resurrection. It is the last Adam; not spoken of there as the Son, or Son of man, but the last Adam, a quickening spirit. The allusion to Him as a Man is very striking.
CAM Would you say that in this chapter [p. 343] the idea of the Father and the Son covers a wider range than that?
JT I think so; it is the widest range of our subject that we can get. It is a question of life in John. We have come a good way in John on this subject, and this is, you might say, the acme of it — the Father and the Son occupied in the same operation, the work of quickening.
JS Is verse 17 the work of the Father and the Son in view of the restoration of life and rest; as though the creation had been disturbed?
JT Well, it is a question of death, sin having entered by man; death following on that necessitated that God should operate; but the Lord calls Him the Father here. Undoubtedly the allusion is to what happened immediately after the creation was interfered with — this moral question of sin and death consequent upon it. I believe that is what is in mind. And this chapter is the divine answer to all that, as to how it is met.
ANW Two actions of the Father are mentioned, and one of the Son. The Father raises the dead and quickens them, quickening mentioned after the raising; but the Son quickens whom He will. Will you say a word as to that?
JT Verse 20 has to be considered from the standpoint of love, that is, “the Father loves the Son”. We had this statement already in chapter 3 in relation to the economy. “The Father loves the Son, and has given all things to be in his hand” (verse 35). But here, “the Father loves the Son and shews him all things which he himself does; and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will” (verses 20, 21). Thus we are right into our subject in this chapter; that is, the operational services of divine Persons, and the Lord is stressing that the Father has the first [p. 344] place, as in all else, and that the Son moves according to what He sees the Father doing. “He will shew him greater works than these, that ye may wonder. For even as the Father raises the dead and quickens them, thus the Son also quickens whom he will”. Well now, the question comes up at once as to whether raising is first. There is resurrection of the dead without quickening; that is, of the wicked dead, but verse 21 refers evidently to the living; I mean, those who are morally dead, but still, those who are the objects of divine counsels. And I would say that the idea of resurrection is one thing by itself. There are really two things in one: the quickening and the raising. Ephesians puts the quickening first and rather presents our being raised up in the sense of elevation; whereas here the raising is put first. It is a question therefore of the importance of each item, not the order in which they take place. But the resurrection is a great thought; a great public thought; a great witness on God’s part. Quickening is less important in that sense, I would think; it is more spiritual and it is done inwardly. Raising up involves being taken out of the grave.
ANW Does raising apply to the body and quickening to the soul or the spirit?
JT Well, quickening refers to the body, too. Now, if you look at Romans 8: 11, for instance, you will see this: “But if the Spirit of him that has raised up Jesus from among the dead dwell in you, he that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. So that the idea of quickening attaches to our bodies. It is the voice of the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, we are told in this chapter — John 5: “Wonder not at this, for an hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs shall hear his voice, and shall go forth; those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that [p. 345] have done evil, to resurrection of judgment”. I referred to this verse because it is said they shall go forth — well, the idea of quickening must be there to enable them to go forth. There is power inwardly, and evidently it extends to the body because they come out, or go forth.
JS Do we see that somewhat enlarged in chapter 11? The Lord says, “Lazarus, come forth”.
JT Quite so; the dead came forth. So that we are to consider this great matter according to all the facts relative to it; that quickening, it would appear, begins inwardly, if there be any lapse of time at all. I am speaking now of a person actually being raised, that even if we may speak of time — it is the twinkling of an eye — it hardly enters into the matter. But if we do consider it at all it would seem that the operation of quickening must begin inwardly and work outwardly. So that there is the hearing of the voice of the Son of God, and then immediately there is the idea of the going forth, which implies that the body, as moving, has power in it. The whole man is affected; therefore he goes forth.
ARC Well, then, would the scripture in Matthew 27, speaking of the saints arising from their graves, bear out what you are saying about going forth? It reads, “And the tombs were opened; and many bodies of the saints fallen asleep arose, and going out of the tombs after his arising, entered into the holy city and appeared unto many” (verses 52, 53).
JT That confirms what we are saying, that they did not immediately arise; it was after Christ’s arising. But the incident is brought in here to show that it is real resurrection for a testimony at that time, and, of course, indicates what the resurrection will be; that there is the principle of going forth. But then, also, there is the hearing before they go forth.
RWS “All who are in the tombs shall hear his voice” — does this refer to all [p. 346] dead?
JT Well, of course, it is only the first part of John 5: 29 that could conform with Matthew 27. The wicked dead are not contemplated as immediately coming forth. We know from Revelation that they come out a thousand years later, so that we are not considering these coming out. The order is: first, hearing the voice of the Son of God, and then coming forth — coming forth to the resurrection of life. But it is those who have practised good, notice; that is, we have in this passage a moral element applied to believers in coming out of their tombs.
JS Is the first resurrection a love matter? I was thinking that the Lord’s first concern is for His own. The first act of power He will exercise will be to bring those He loves out of their tombs.
JT That is the viewpoint in Thessalonians — quite so.
RWS I am not quite clear as to the going forth in verse 29: “... those that have practised good, to resurrection of life, and those that have done evil, to resurrection of judgment”. I know there is a thousand years between the two, but quickening hardly applies to the bodies of the wicked dead, does it?
JT I do not think quickening in the sense of which we have been speaking applies to them at all; they will, of course, be made to live, to exist, in a physical sense and in this condition come into judgment; they will stand before the throne; Revelation 20: 12. They will thus “come forth”, as stated in John 5: 29, but this will be in a period much later than that of the resurrection of the just; Revelation 20: 5.
APT That scripture in Revelation 20 says, “The rest of the dead did not live till the thousand years had been completed”. Would you help us on that?
JT That would mean that they remained in death in a disembodied condition until the resurrection of the unjust. But Luke 16 shows that as the unsaved die they go to hades in which they are in torment. The word ‘live’ in Revelation 20: 5 would not be more than that, the wicked dead are (including their bodies) brought into existence so as to continue eternally under the wrath of God.
AR What about Lazarus? The Lord said to him, “Lazarus, come forth; and the dead came forth”.
JT Of course that is only a type of what we have here. The raising of Lazarus was merely physical; it was in his former state of flesh and blood. He died afterwards. He does not correspond with Matthew 27; those that were raised according to Matthew 27 live yet, in a remarkable way. They must exist in their bodies somewhere. We have to leave that with God. They came out as a testimony.
CAM Would it be right to think that resurrection is in relation to a time setting, and as to external things, and quickening would be this inward matter?
JT Well, there are modifications, because quickening is also said of the believers’ bodies; Romans 8: 11. On the other hand, we have in John 5: 21 that the Father raises the dead and quickens them. And in Ephesians and Colossians the saints in their present condition are viewed as quickened. Thus for a right understanding of words in Scripture it is often absolutely necessary to consider the contexts in which they are used. In Colossians resurrection is symbolised in baptism. It is a public matter, and it belongs peculiarly to the testimony. The resurrection is a great subject in Scripture, and that is to be kept in mind. It is on the divine calendar. In John 6 the Lord stresses it as His own act in the last day.
CAM Your reference to the testimony in connection with the resurrection is helpful. Do we not get the light and testimony to the resurrection of Christ before we really enter into the meaning of it in our souls?
JT Quite so; it is a matter of teaching. As applied to believers in their present state resurrection [p. 348] belongs properly to Colossians and Ephesians. In Romans its application to the saints is in the future only.
JTJr Some in Corinth were saying there would be no resurrection, but the apostle calls them fools. “But some one will say. How are the dead raised? and with what body do they come?” 1 Corinthians 15: 35. Do you think Paul there takes up this matter in relation to believers? He does not go into the matter of those who perish, does he?
JT No. He treats only of the resurrection of the saints. “With what body do they come?” In replying, the apostle uses a figure: “What thou sowest is not quickened unless it die ... . God gives to it a body as he has pleased”. So he goes on to enlarge on the characteristics of a believer’s body as sown in corruption, in dishonour, in weakness, a natural body; it is raised in incorruptibility, in glory, in power, a spiritual body. Therefore, the apostle connects all that he has in mind with the resurrection of the saints. The quickening of the bodies of the saints is also contemplated. It is in that connection the Lord Jesus is said to be the last Adam, a quickening spirit. He will exercise that power in relation to the saints. He loves us, and according to Thessalonians He comes with an assembling shout, involving love for the assembly and the power available to it, taking those who belong to it out of death; and according to Philippians, it is to transform us into conformity to His body of glory; and, according to Ephesians, to set us down together in heaven to be always with the Lord.
ABP What is the life which the Lord speaks of in John 11: 25, 26? Does it refer to the life which shall be entered into after resurrection? “I am the resurrection and the life; he that believes on me, though he have died, shall live; and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die”.
JT That bears directly on what we are saying. “Though he have died”. That would refer to those that came out of their tombs according to Matthew 27, those who had died. The Lord is contemplating all the sleeping saints when He is speaking to Martha. He says, “I am the resurrection and the life”. “The resurrection” is a great public matter; and “the life” involves quickening power. Romans 8: 11 says of us who are alive — not that have died — that our bodies shall be quickened on account of God’s Spirit which dwells in us. The second statement of the Lord (John 11: 26) is, “Every one who lives and believes on me shall never die”. “Every one who lives” refers to persons such as we are here tonight. We are entitled to so regard ourselves. So the two positions, the great position of “the dead in Christ” and the position of “the living who remain” are in the Lord’s mind in His conversation with Martha. Therefore “every one who lives and believes on me shall never die” would mean that such do not go into the grave at all; they are just changed by the power of the Spirit.
ABP And the change involves quickening?
JT Yes. “He that has raised up Christ from among the dead shall quicken your mortal bodies also”; so our bodies are to be quickened.
APT In Romans 4, speaking of Abraham, Paul says, “God ... who quickens the dead”. What would you say of that?
JT Well, the birth of Isaac, of course, was a matter of quickening. Abraham believed and hence Isaac was the product of the quickening power of God. It was really a miracle. But it was on the same principle, that Sarah was, as dead, quickened in that sense; that is, Isaac was born. So that the principle of quickening runs through, and is made to apply to us as literally dead or morally dead.
ANW Is it not striking that that verse [p. 350] in Romans 8 applies the quickening of our mortal bodies in relation to the raising up of Christ? It could never be said that Christ was quickened, could it?
JT There is evidently a difference; He always has the pre-eminence. Peter says, however, that He was “made alive in the Spirit”; the original word for “made alive” is the same as is usually translated “quickened”.
RWS Is the Son quickening whom He will a more extensive thought than the Father raising the dead and quickening them?
JT I think the Father and the Son are viewed here as doing the same thing. Only the economy is in mind: the Father comes first, but the Son quickening whom He will would mean that He has power to quicken anyone out of a dead state. Verse 25, one hearing the voice of the Son of God and living, alludes to persons who are morally dead, not in the graves, but morally dead. That would be an act of the Son of God at any time in any one of us as hearing His voice.
RWS The Father and the Son might act separately.
JT Yes. The Father, the Son and the Spirit are spoken of in Scripture as quickening but what they do is in infinite unity. The Father and the Son in their operational services are seen here, the Father operating before, and the Son now having become Man, operating, but it is the same thing. But it is the Deity coming out in a very factual way which could not be denied. The opposers immediately say. He is making Himself equal with God; and He was. The facts show that He was doing that; He is not doing it in a formal way, but He is doing it. It is the equality of the Son with the Father.
JTJr Do the facts stress the position of the Son in the chapter?
JT I think that is the way our meetings [p. 351] should proceed. Things should operate as we are ready for them, without any great formal show. They come in and are felt by some without others noticing. I think divine operations go on just that way. “My Father worketh hitherto”, says the Lord. It had been going on for centuries and now the Son operating is an additional thought. “I work”, says the Lord. Now the work is going on in this dual way.
CAM The ecclesiastical system has really lost the truth of the Father and the Son working, and the infirm man spoken of in the early part of the chapter dropped back into that system. What the Lord is opening up now is that divine Persons are working.
JT The one was an angelic matter, once a year, but here is the wonderfulness of what has come in — the Father and the Son operating. The Father has been doing it all along, and now the Son has come into it. Way has been made through the light of the assembly for divine Persons to operate, and living conditions exist; hence a case of need can be met, instead of waiting thirty-eight years.
GAL Is Eutychus a case in point, how he was revived?
JT Yes. Eutychus was resuscitated by Paul after he fell down from the third story and seemed to be dead, but was not. So that Paul says, His life is in him. There is no idea of quickening there because his life was in him. He needed revivifying, the heat that love provides being largely the remedy; and the apostle enfolded him in his arms and brought the boy up. It was an act of Paul’s. Of course, God acted, but it was peculiarly a service of Paul’s. We might call it a miracle. Take a great spiritual matter that enters into the history of the assembly and yet death takes place in the sense that young people are worldly, looking out through the window and they get deadly cold and want to leave the saints. It is a question of resuscitation, bringing them back to conscious life;
[p. 352] spiritual ministry and the care of love will under God, effect that. It represents a sorrowful event in relation to the testimony and the ministry. It may happen at any time, and it is met in the way the brethren look after each other, especially as seen in a great servant like Paul, how he was used at that time.
WR In Romans 1 we have, “... marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead” (verse 4). Why do you think “the Spirit of holiness” is added there?
JT It is an important thing. It is part of the gospel. It is a gospel statement. The word ‘dead’ there is plural; and of course it is carried in the hearers and receivers of the gospel as a great item of faith. However many are dead the Lord has power to raise them.
AH How can this work go on in us inwardly now apart from our bodies being quickened?
JT It is going on by the Father and the Son. What is evidently to impress us tonight is this great service of divine Persons, and how it proceeds, and no doubt the Lord intended to show that God, the Jehovah of the Old Testament, had been operating all the centuries until then. Who can say what happened in detail? How extensive must the Father’s work have been as entering into all those centuries! Well, now it has come into christianity, and this chapter is to show that divine Persons are intent in the great matter of resurrection but especially of quickening, as bearing on the subject of eternal life, to which we are coming presently, and it is a question of what is going on in this room, what effect the word has, whether we are moving in this way according to what the chapter intimates. The Father and Son are here, ready to serve us, the Spirit, too. The saints are in mind in verse 29: “... those that have practised good”. The Lord introduces the idea of doing good. Let us not forget that. There is great need [p. 353] for doing good and the result will appear in the resurrection. That the great truth of resurrection should be placed, as in this verse, on the ground of doing good is remarkable.
WR A great crowd came to see Lazarus after Jesus raised him from the dead. He was taken account of by others.
JT It was because of the resurrection; the testimony it afforded. There is going to be a great testimony, too, presently when, according to Thessalonians, the dead in Christ arise. But this goes further than that, it includes the wicked dead.
APT “He that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal” (verse 24). Is there a difference between that and the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God (verse 25)?
JT There is a difference. Both are gospel verses relating to life. Each has a double verily, so the Spirit is stressing them. In verse 24 the Lord says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, that he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me, has life eternal”. In this verse there is the idea of hearing Christ’s word. That is, His mind enters into this matter; not simply His voice. His voice conveys His feelings, and in general is more personal. Then also the idea of the Lord being sent by the Father is associated with His word, also that the hearer believes on Him who sent Him. The result is that the believer has life eternal, and does not come into judgment but has passed out of death into life, whereas verse 25 states that “the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live”. Those morally dead are in mind.
WCR Would you say a word in connection with Ezekiel 37, the prophetic word there and the great results from it? Does it all bear on what you are saying?
JT Well, that is a future matter, which opens up [p. 354] quite a line of thought characteristic of Ezekiel; but it links with verse 25 of this chapter, of which we have already spoken. The Lord says there, “An hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live”. These persons are not dead in the literal sense, they are morally dead, as men generally are now. Ezekiel 37 contemplates the whole house of Israel viewed as existent in bodies. It is a figure really, bones came together, bone to its bone, also sinews, and flesh came upon them and skin covered them; and then through Ezekiel prophesying breath came into them and they lived, and stood upon their feet. The whole procedure is connected with prophecy. The passage is a prophetic allusion to the revival of Israel in the future, “in a day”. A nation shall be born in a day. That is, the whole nation of Israel brought into life through the mighty power of God; but through prophecy. There is, however, as I said, a link with this chapter, for verse 24 contemplates Christ’s “word”, and verse 25 speaks of the voice of the Son of God, which involves the testimony of ministry. Verse 28 is the direct sovereign voice of Christ heard by those in the tombs.
ABP Would it be right to say that the man in John 9 to whom the Lord says, “Thou hast both seen him, and he that speaks with thee is he” (verse 37), is an example of one who is quickened, and so can see and hear?
JT Well, the Lord is assuming that something had already taken place in him. The Lord, of course, had actual contact with him in performing the sign, but there is nothing said so far of further direct relations with him. The Lord says, however, “Thou hast both seen him and he that speaks with thee is he”. But beyond this there is no evidence that the man formed any personal links with the Lord. In answer to the inquiry of the neighbours as to where the Lord was, the man said, “I do not know”. All this seems according to the divine design, to bring out the development of the moral effect of the sign. The chapter would show that considerable progress had taken place in a moral sense; for he had formed a most remarkable judgment of the whole position. What further do you have in mind?
ABP Well, somehow the man of John 9 seems to come into one’s mind constantly in contrast to the man of John 5; while the latter missed the real blessing, the man in John 9 seems to come into the gain of it. I thought that the seeing which the Lord referred to was more moral than actual; the development of his apprehension and discernment while standing alone seems to suggest life in him and I thought that connected with quickening.
JT I am sure it does; something of a moral character had taken place in the man. We may learn from the earlier verses, not merely that he had become interested in the Lord but he had acquired a remarkable apprehension of Him and of God, also of the truth generally. Now he is ready for further help, which the Lord alone could give. The time had come for the Lord to take him in hand more definitely, having in mind to fit him for the flock, as seen in chapter 10. I think the Lord’s method with this man shows how He takes us all in hand, so as to finish His work in us in view of the assembly.
TW Will you distinguish between these titles the Lord uses of Himself — Son of God, Son, and Son of man?
JT Well, what is before us especially is the Son of God; we are stressing that. The title Son of man is here connected with judgment, which would show that manhood in Him is invested with authority in that connection, that it is in the hands of the Son of man. All judgment is committed into His hands — a matter to look into; how we are to put things under [p. 356] their proper heads, and if any matter involving judgment arises to put it under the head of the Son of man.
ANW Would it be safe to say that verse 25 is the voice of the Son of God, and verse 28 is the voice of the Son of man? I thought the wicked dead would hear His voice as the Son of man in that sense.
JT Well, now, let us see. “For even as the Father has life in himself, so he has given to the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is Son of man” (verses 26, 27). Remember, it is judgment. As we were already saying, the question comes up immediately whether it is the Son of man that raises the sleeping saints, or whether the Lord does not revert to verse 26. I believe He does and hence in verse 29 the Lord refers to Himself as Son of God; that it is the voice of the Son of God that raises the dead — those who are in the tombs.
ANW My thought in inquiring was that the wicked stand in relation to Him as Son of man.
ABP The title Son alone would include both Son of God and Son of man?
JT Well, it would, but they have not exactly the same value, I would say. Son of man is on our side but the Son of God is on God’s side. “The Son” in verse 23 designates the Lord’s personal dignity as related to the Father. He is to be honoured as the Father is honoured. “His voice” in verse 29 is the voice of that Person.
JTJr That is the point in Romans 1, that has been referred to already: “... marked out Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead”. It is the testimony to His sonship, is it not?
JT Yes. The Lord would have that in mind here; His prerogative in quickening and raising the dead — the sleeping saints — would be as Son of God. I think that is the Scriptural teaching; the idea of [p. 357] judgment is added in verse 29 and, therefore, the idea of Son of man must be included. But I believe “the voice” there is that of the Son of God.
JS Is this section a working out of the economy of the Father and the Son?
JT Yes, and it is intended to help us, I am sure, in our subject. It is not simply life but how it stands in relation to divine Persons, the Father and the Son.
RWS Is verse 25 still the moral side, or does it allude to the dead physically?
JT “An hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God”. These are not physically dead persons. I think it is just as some may be here today — that one may hear the voice of the Son of God in a meeting like this and live.
RWS Verse 24 is in the present tense: hears my word; believes, has — that would link on with the “now is” in verse 25, whereas the rest would appear to be future.
JT Quite so. Verse 25 runs down through this dispensation: “verily, verily ... an hour is coming”. That hour had, you might say, already come; it is the hour of the Son of God marked by vivifying power in those who hear His voice; it is the dispensation that we are in. That is, it is the dispensation of the voice of the Son of God. “The dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that have heard shall live”.
ANW Whereas the hour in verse 28 is still future.
JT Quite so, it is a question of the literal resurrection of the dead. Verse 25 is a present thing. They that have heard shall live. It is a question of the testimony of the Son of God, how it affects us as we hear it.
JTJr Verse 24, “... is passed out of death”, is our side. It is a movement out of something into [p. 358] life. Is it an out-of-the-world condition of life and being?
JT Quite so; it is a present thing. It is predicated of us as believers as having heard Christ’s word. It is not a voice but the Lord’s word — “he that hears my word, and believes him that has sent me”. The believer is brought into it. Therefore, it is a great gospel verse, and the effect of it is that you come into eternal life. It is not that you will have it, but you have it; “does not come into judgment, but is passed out of death into life” is predicated of all who believe the Father as having sent the Son and who hear the Son’s word.
ABP Is that in line with what you were stressing in an earlier reading, about the Son of man being lifted up: “I, if I be lifted up out of the earth, will draw all to me”, John 12: 32?
JT Yes; only it is “out of death” here, passed, not only out of the earth, but out of death into life.
ABP Would that involve environment?
JT Yes, only “death” is a state we are in, of course, living on the earth.
WWM Do you look at Ephesians 2, where it speaks of quickening us together with Christ and raising us up together, as a present or future matter?
JT It is viewed as a fact and hence is present. It is anticipative. It is not “he will raise us up”; He has done it. Therefore it enters into the service of God. We are entitled to take heavenly ground as progressing in the service. He has raised us up together.
CAM Speaking again of the voice of the Son of God and the judgment committed to the Son of man, would you think the book of Daniel throws a certain light on this? The “fourth” in chapter 3 who went through the furnace with the three that were cast into it, is said to be like a son of God. In chapter 7 the setting is beyond death altogether; “thrones were [p. 359] set, and the Ancient of days did sit”, and one like a son of man came up and was brought near.
JT That is a good connection. It ought to help us. The Son of God is identified with the saints in death. It is as the Son of God that He associates with us and helps us in the circumstances of death. Son of man refers to His position as in relation with men as Heir of all that attaches to man according to the counsels of God, including universal headship and dominion. Authority to execute judgment is also given to Him, “because he is Son of man”. This, however, is included in His wider prerogative as Son; John 5: 22, 23.