THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (4)
[p. 53] THE LIFE WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS (4)
2 Corinthians 2: 14 - 17; 2 Corinthians 4: 7 - 11; 2 Corinthians 5: 1 - 4
JT It will be observed that the passages read speak of life somewhat in relation to those who serve; those who carry on the ministry; running on from the idea of odour in ministry. In chapter 5 we see the final effect of life, “... that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life” (verse 4). It is thought that, first, we might connect our subject with the collective position as at Corinth. It includes occasions such as we are presently engaged in, particularly as marked by life operating in those who carry on the ministry. It is carried out in mortal bodies but culminates in this remarkable statement, “while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life”. Then, the victorious characteristics of the great truth of life. Chapter 15 of the first epistle enlarges on this subject, involving the resurrection of the saints’ bodies; persons who have actually died. But what is contemplated here is rather being “clothed”; mortality being thus swallowed up by life. This refers to those who are alive in their mortal bodies when the Lord comes. We can hardly speak of all this with consistency save as we are characterised in some degree by life in our services.
APT It is remarkable that in chapter 1 the apostle connects two other brothers in the preaching of the Son of God. “For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, he who has been preached by us among you (by me and Silvanus and Timotheus), did not become yea and nay, but yea is in him”, 2 Corinthians 1: 19.
JT The preaching of the Son of God at Corinth in that three-fold testimony would amplify what we have had from Romans, in which we are told that Christ is “marked out Son of God in power, according to the Spirit of holiness, by resurrection of the dead”, Romans 1: 4.
AR He also links on Titus in chapter 2: 12: “Now when I came to Troas for the publication of the glad tidings of the Christ, a door also being opened to me in the Lord, I had no rest in my spirit at not finding Titus my brother; but bidding them adieu, I came away to Macedonia. But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ”. It shows the peculiar link that must have existed between Paul and such men.
JT Both in relation to fellow-servants and also to the saints generally. The minister affects those ministered to, as the apostle says, “we who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh; so that death works in us, but life in you”, chapter 4: 11, 12. Life is effected in the saints generally by the ministers accepting death. This involves the organism in which God has set us all. It is also seen in chapter 5 of the first letter, in which he says, “For I, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged as present, to deliver, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ ...” (verses 3, 4). The principle of it is that we are all affected by the impulse of the Spirit in one or more, so that I think these epistles serve to exercise those who minister, not only as to their words, but themselves. The ministers themselves affect the saints generally, so Paul says further, “For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus’ sake”, chapter 4: 5. Then all that follows, about “our mortal flesh”, has in mind the reaction in the saints’ lives — death working in the servants but life in those ministered to.
ANW What does the idea of odour suggest to you in connection with life?
JT [p. 55] Well, evidently it would be in Paul. He says, “But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph in the Christ, and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place”, (verse 14). That is the first thing; it is the odour of the knowledge of God; and then, “we are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish”. The latter is the most remarkable statement: the odour is not in the persons who refuse the truth but in those who minister the truth. There is something for God in both cases, whether it be in the saved or in those who perish. All involves the ministers; the odour is in them by the Spirit.
JHE Could that be likened to the odour that God smelled when Noah offered up sacrifices? God smelled an “odour of rest”.
JT Yes. That is a suitable scripture to bring in here. The thought is mentioned early, and it is carried through here in peculiar freshness in Paul’s ministry.
AR In the verses you read in chapter 2, the use of the words ‘us’ and ‘we’ is remarkable; it includes the other ministers with Paul in his ministry.
JT Well, the apostle would, in principle, link them with him — the two that were already mentioned: Silvanus and Timotheus. Hence the preachings are so important, even though there may not be conversions — where the power is, there is fragrance.
CN Is that why he asked, “Who is sufficient for these things?” (verse 16)?
JT Yes; it is not simply that one can preach, and present the truth of the gospel; the odour of it must go with it, and that involves life.
ABP It is an odour in them and an odour to them according to the passage read.
JT The odour would be in the minister. “We are a sweet odour of Christ to God, in the saved and in those that perish: to the one an odour from death [p. 56] unto death, but to the others an odour from life unto life”; the ‘to’ would mean, I think, that the preaching bore on the persons who heard, whether they refused or received the truth. What they heard would involve the fragrance of the gospel. The allusion is to a triumphal procession in which odorous drugs were burnt. Some in the procession, including captives through the victory celebrated, would be appointed to death, others to life: all sharing in the odour.
CAM Ephesians 5 speaks of Christ loving us and delivering Himself up for us “an offering and sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savour” (verse 2). That would be the fragrance of the burnt-offering, would it not?
JT Yes; as in Genesis 8, already alluded to “Jehovah smelled a sweet savour”. In the testimony of the gospel there could be no odour save in the sacrificial death of Christ entering into it. That is how I would understand ‘to’ in the unsaved person. You might say, It is useless. But it is not; the preaching being in such power as is contemplated here, was fragrant to God anyway, and it bore on the responsibility of the persons who were lost. The fragrance of the death of Christ through the gospel is part of the testimony. Even as the gospel is refused, the fragrance of Christ is there.
CAM Would that be exemplified in Noah’s preaching? It was not received. Then there was the fragrance of the sacrifices in the new world.
JT I think that section of Scripture bears on this. Noah’s preaching was evidently about one hundred and twenty years, contemporary with the building of the ark. Was it all for nothing? It was for nothing as far as external appearances went, but certainly not in the nostrils of God. According to Peter, Christ Himself preached at that time: “... put to death in flesh, but made alive in the Spirit, in [p. 57] which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison ... in the days of Noah while the ark was preparing”, 1 Peter 3: 18 - 20. Jehovah had said, “My Spirit shall not always plead with Man”, Genesis 6: 3. That striving would not be barren as regards the effect on God Himself, any more than the hovering of the Spirit over the waters; Genesis 1: 2. Divine feelings would be expressed in these actions of the Spirit. It would be in a mediatorial way. It is the Spirit of God, and God would gain from His activities; it was not all barrenness. The action brings God in, in effect, from the outset — not disappointedly, but from the exigency of the purposes of His love.
CAM I think that is remarkable. It seems to my mind to throw light on the fragrance of Noah’s burnt-offerings and on God’s ways before. Everything must be fragrant to God in that way.
JT Even in the creation this is true. Wisdom said it delighted in what was done. Well, God must have had something in that. It was all mediatorial. Even creation was mediatorial work: “by whom also he made the worlds”, Hebrews 1: 2; and the recovery of the earth from the state it was in, as described in Genesis, must have occasioned something for God. It could not be barren, inasmuch as there was a divine Person operating, and so in Noah’s day, “My Spirit shall not always plead with Man”. But when you come to the burnt-offerings, they were not at the beginning of the operations of Noah, but at the end. It was a renewed earth that came in, and it was from the divine side, under the fragrance of the burnt-offerings. Undoubtedly all was connected with Noah, even including his preaching and other services before the deluge.
ANW Would the thing be seen in some way in John 12? The house was filled with the odour, diversely affecting one, at least.
JT Yes. Judas’ attitude could not detract from it. In truth it would be an odour of death to him.
APT In Peter’s first epistle, to which you have referred, he speaks about the eight that were saved. The odour of life was in the saved, and the odour of death unto death was in those who came under the penalty of the flood.
JT Quite so; the odour of death must in some sense reflect the death of Christ. There could not be anything for God aside from that. So it opens up a good deal as to what God had throughout in His operations. The preaching of Noah, in measure, corresponded with the preaching of Paul.
WR The same scripture says, “... but made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached to the spirits which are in prison”, 1 Peter 3: 19. Who would the ‘he’ refer to, and who are those in prison?
JT Those in prison are the ungodly to whom Noah preached, when the longsuffering of God waited in his days. So the savour would be there in the preaching of Noah. It is the retroactive ministry of Christ. The preaching was His, but through Noah. The statement is striking: “made alive in the Spirit, in which also going he preached”. The preaching was through Noah, but it was the Spirit of Christ in a retroactive sense and the savour would be there; death was there in the flood. It was not negative; there was something for God in it, because God’s Spirit had been striving there through Noah. Anyone with any sensibility Godward would know what was there, but the Lord says, “as it took place in the days of Noe, thus also shall it be in the days of the Son of man: they ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all of them” (Luke 17: 26, 27); that is, they were wicked and indifferent to the gospel, but nevertheless God was getting something from the preaching. The [p. 59] longsuffering of God brought Him into the position as it brought Him into Paul’s position in a later day. In this connection it is remarkable that Jehovah smelled the “odour of rest” in Noah’s offerings; and this affects the whole period of the earth’s service “all the days of the earth”.
WGT So the preaching took place in the days of Noah; not while the spirits were in prison, but during their life here on earth.
JT That is right; they were marrying and giving in marriage; they were carrying on, disregarding the gospel.
ABP Would this passage suggest that ministry should appeal to all the senses; not only that we sit and hear the words, but there should be discernment through the spiritual senses, such as smell, taste and sight? Should not the whole being, so to speak, be affected?
JT Just so. It makes God victorious all the time, and us, too — “thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumph”; this refers to apostolic service, but there is what corresponds in all true evangelical ministry. Therefore, we are to be encouraged that our labour is not in vain in the Lord.
APT The word ‘odour’ appears also inverse 14, “and makes manifest the odour of his knowledge through us in every place”. That is a remarkable word. Does it refer to the movements of the Lord’s servants?
JT I would say that wherever Paul went, there was such fragrance. Take Philippi, for example; what fragrance was there in the sufferings of Paul and Silas, and the ultimate result in the gospel!
AR Is this going on all the time — since Pentecost, but especially in our day when apostasy is developing?
JT Quite so; God is not living in disappointment. He is always victorious because of the fragrance there is in the death of Christ, and the ministry [p. 60] carrying that forward. The Spirit maintains it. The holy anointing oil, which was fragrant, enters into this. Christ, as anointed, went about doing good, for God was with Him. There was continued fragrance there.
RWS Is the allusion to trading, in the last verse, a warning to those who serve, lest they lose their scent in making a trade of divine things?
JT There would not be any fragrance in that, nor sensibility to odour either.
Now chapter 4 carries on this thought in the ministry. The apostle says, “Therefore, having this ministry, as we have had mercy shown us, we faint not ... But if also our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those that are lost; in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine forth for them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus Lord, and ourselves your bondmen for Jesus’ sake” (verses 1 - 5). He is still occupied with what characterised himself and his preaching; and what he had in mind was that in his body — his mortal flesh — the life of Jesus should be manifested.
JS You would see radiancy in his body.
JT You would; and even napkins taken from it effected cures, showing the virtue there was in that body. It may at any time become cold in death, but whilst the Spirit of God was there, life as it shone in Jesus was expressed there. The apostle was always bearing about in his body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be manifested in his body. God would have it thus; and so Paul says, “We who live are always delivered unto death on account of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh” (verse 11). He continues, “So that death works in us, but life in you”.
CAM You made an allusion to 1 Corinthians 15.
[p. 61] I wanted to ask you as to whether that does not imply that there is an inward spiritual change taking place in the saints in view of all that glorious external thing. I was wondering whether the second epistle shows this is now taking place in some inward way in the saint, contemplating this mortal being swallowed up.
JT The swallowing up is in the application of life to us as we are at this moment. Romans 8 says, “he ... shall quicken your mortal bodies also on account of his Spirit which dwells in you” (verse 11). This links with what you allude to as spoken of in 2 Corinthians. Paul says, “For we know that if our earthly tabernacle house be destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this we groan, ardently desiring to have put on our house which is from heaven; if indeed being also clothed we shall not be found naked. For indeed we who are in the tabernacle groan, being burdened; while yet we do not wish to be unclothed, but clothed, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life”, 2 Corinthians 5: 1 - 4. What you suggest as to an inward continuous change in the saints is what is in mind in the passage in chapter 4, which reads, “Wherefore we faint not; but if indeed our outward man is consumed, yet the inward is renewed day by day. For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory” (verses 16, 17). Now there you have the renewal day by day which is wholly spiritual. In this sense, there is no change taking place in our bodies. But when we are ‘clothed’, the body is changed — made to correspond with what we are inwardly. What we are inwardly, our spiritual being, is renewed day by day. “For our momentary and light affliction works for us in surpassing measure an eternal weight of glory”. That is, there is something going on that is covered by those wonderful [p. 62] words. But the body is untouched by these things it may be sickly although there can be no doubt that the body of a believer is affected by piety as it comes under the government of God; but it is mortal, however godly he may be.
JHE What we do outwardly is the result of what we are inwardly, is it not? Stephen’s face was as that of an angel; there was an inward work there.
JT Yes; the mortal provisionally serves to express the spiritual, which is what the apostle stresses in chapter 4, as we have been noting.
ANW Does not ‘swallowed up’ suggest a sudden action, and is this not coincidental with the word in 1 Corinthians 15, that death is swallowed up in victory?
JT Yes. Clothing is a literal act of God that takes place in the twinkling of an eye. It is the transformation of our bodies of humiliation into conformity to Christ’s body of glory; it is regarded here from the standpoint of the believer’s experience and desire rather than doctrinally, as in 1 Corinthians 15.
RWS The treasure is still in the earthen vessel — a fragile vessel.
JT Just so; it is there while we are in that condition. It is not there while you are in the grave. It is a provisional condition we are in now; so it can be said, “We have this treasure in earthen vessels”. But as soon as I die, all is negative until the Lord comes. While the Spirit is in me here, I am regarded as alive. “We, the living who remain”. So the change, according to Romans 8, is “on account of his Spirit which dwells in you”. Administratively, all comes under the Lord Himself — the Lord Himself descends. The Holy Spirit does not take us to heaven, although it is manifest that He has part in the great transaction. The Father, the Son and the Spirit have part in the raising, quickening and translation [p. 63] of the saints.
RWS Is the working of God in us now connected with the earthen vessels?
JT The earthen vessels are used as a provisional condition in which God is pleased to set His testimony. The earthen vessel is fragile. It might seem like a worm on the street, trampled at any time and destroyed; but it is not; God looks after it. The present testimony is carried on in earthen vessels, and not only so, but in mortal ones. The great triumph is that God can preserve us while in our present condition. The apparent fragility of the vessels employed shows that the surpassingness of the power is of God and not from us.
WGT Gideon’s torches were to remain in the pitchers until the pitchers were broken.
JT That is right; the allusion here is to Gideon. Going back to Gideon helps; the light was inside and when the vessel was broken, the light shone out.
ABP Would the selection of those who went with Gideon link on here too? They were evidently those who were not unduly concerned about their bodies.
JT Yes. They were laying down their lives, you might say. The three hundred persons (against myriads of Midianites) had already begun to lay down their lives when they lapped the water; they were typically full of the testimony, surrendering natural comfort and propriety because of it. They did not consider for themselves. They lapped like a dog. That would mean that they were not governed by mere natural feelings, implying ease and consequent delay; very little time would be consumed in the transaction, and so they could quickly proceed to the conflict. It is a question of touching lightly what is naturally necessary. Leadership enters into it, and the breaking of the earthen vessel.
APT In the first scripture we read, is the life active Godward — what God gets in the odour?
[p. 64] whereas in chapter 4, is it more the testimony horizontally; how we are manifesting this light?
JT That is right; the effect is in the saints — “life in you” — “Death works in us”, says the apostle, “but life in you”. That is to say, Gideon’s vessel and those of the three hundred were broken; the light shone; the testimony was sounded; and the result was Israel’s deliverance.
AR Chapter 4: 4 speaks of the “radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ”. That is, I suppose, what was shining in the ministry.
JT Yes. God had shone in Paul’s heart. And now he alludes to Gideon’s pitchers as types; being fragile, and having torches in them, they symbolise the Lord’s servants in their mortal bodies. The apostle himself had been drawn out of the city of Lystra as dead; but, as he says in our chapter, he was “not destroyed”, for as the disciples encircled him, he rose up and entered into the city and on the morrow resumed his service.
JS Is that leadership in death?
JT Yes; it is the acceptance of it, as Paul describes it here: “But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the surpassingness of the power may be of God, and not from us: every way afflicted, but not straitened; seeing no apparent issue, but our way not entirely shut up; persecuted, but not abandoned; cast down, but not destroyed” (verses 7 - 9). That is what was happening to him from without, but “always bearing about in the body the dying of Jesus, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our body”. This latter was from his own side. God’s thought was that through Paul’s afflictions the saints should be helped; therefore the apostle says, “So that death works in us, but life in you”. It is a remarkable turning of the outwardly adverse circumstances of a servant to the profit of those he served.