THE ASSEMBLY ON EARTH, AND AS COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN
[p. 155] THE ASSEMBLY ON EARTH, AND AS COMING DOWN OUT OF HEAVEN
Revelation 1:9 - 11; Revelation 21:1 - 7
JT The suggestion is to compare the first scripture with the one in chapter 21, and to see how the first is possible, that is the assembly as having an existence on the earth in localities, and then to see its place in heaven so as to come down, not sent down, or falling down as Satan, but “coming down out of the heaven from God”. The first chapter enables us to gauge what the assembly is now upon earth, in peculiar circumstances, not as in Acts 2, but as found long after the Holy Spirit had come down. It indicates how God is guarding and protecting it, and how the Lord Jesus is present in relation to it. In verse 12 it reads, “And I turned back to see the voice which spoke with me; and having turned, I saw seven golden lamps”, John says again what he saw in chapter 21, not seven, but one, and that one in the form of a city, later spoken of as the tabernacle of God with men. So that we have to consider, why is the change? Why the happenings contemplated in the early chapters of Revelation? And why is the Lord’s garb different? As it is said, “And in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, and girt about at the breasts with a golden girdle: his head and hair white like white wool, as snow; and his eyes as a flame of fire; and his feet like fine brass, as burning in a furnace; and his voice as the voice of many waters; and having in his right hand seven stars; and out of his mouth a sharp two-edged sword going forth; and his countenance as the sun shines in its power”, Revelation 1:13 - 16. Then before that we have “I John”, a personal thought, a distinct personality, “your [p. 156] brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus”, showing that such things were existent though there was such a change in the Lord’s presence and His garb.
Ques Why was there such a thing as “the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus”?
JT To bring out the actual facts of the case; he was imprisoned, and yet capable of being affected spiritually. He “became in [the] Spirit on the Lord’s day”, that is he was still amenable to the Spirit actually, and observant of the Lord’s rights here on a certain day, and he turns back, as if the position was radically changed. It was “a great voice as of a trumpet”, and he “turned back to see the voice”, and tells us what he saw. He did not see the Lord in relation to the service of God, but in judicial garb, which in itself explains why it changes. And then in chapter 21 he sees the eternal position of the new heavens and the new earth, and later the bride, the assembly, which he sees in the character of a city, which is a political thought, which would suggest what she is to be presently in the millennium. It is a Jewish thought transferred to what is new.
AH In working out the practical thought of the assembly “your brother” stands.
JT Yes, and carries with it the thought of the assembly, as in John 20, “my brethren”. It is “my assembly” according to Matthew 16. One here in tribulation and patience, yet “your brother ... in Jesus”.
A.H. Why “in”?
JT The idea still retains power; it is what we have in the twos and the threes, and what we know in Jesus.
AH It is significant that the brotherly relation is stressed later on by [p. 157] Paul.
JT Paul retained the thought; one who was with him was a brother, it was not official.
FI Is it a view of things from the public side taking account of the declension?
JT Yes. We can still meet together; none forbidding it, and even if they call us ‘brethren’, or dub us with any other name! ... Well, it is not ‘forbidding’ us; Acts 28:31. Centuries ago we should have had to be connected with the established church; we should not have been allowed to preach in the open. It is probably explained by our prayers being heard in heaven that the authorities are not forbidding us, even where the Roman Catholics rule.
Rem It is “for the testimony of Jesus”.
JT Yes; it is the same now; we have these good rooms, for our prayers are being heard, and God has intervened. There is this ordering, this voice which we can speak of between ourselves, and the Lord’s garb, and then we have the localities, and the Lord is in our midst, “I saw seven golden lamps, and in the midst of the [seven] lamps [one] like [the] Son of man”. He is still in the midst; it is a prophetic position, not exactly an ecclesiastical position, as in the Acts, where the Lord can be spoken of in His relations to the assembly, as well as to Israel. The prophetic position means that they do not understand, yet it is a great advantage, too. They are real Christians around us, and yet they do not understand what we say. The language is perfectly understood with us; it is judicial, and marks off our position.
Rem John credits the saints with the same features that marked him, so he is their “brother and fellow-partaker”, and he also has the power to abstract himself.
JT Yes; and none outside understand; it is a dead and unknown language to them, yet we enjoy it, for the Lord is here, and the Holy Spirit, too. He was not far from John, one He loved, and He unfolded [p. 158] the greatest things to him, as we have in chapter 21 particularly. Am I speaking in riddles?
FI No. Are you linking chapter 1 with chapter 21? The latter the spiritual side, but the first chapter is the declension.
JT The declension, yes, and in the midst of it One who knows; it is an intervention from heaven immediately; yet these garments are not an intervention, but an indication of what is coming in the millennium; so that we can talk of them intelligently, and so that we can be transferred from the actual state of things into the spiritual side in chapter 21.
AH Would the exercise of having left “thy first love” produce the features of the assembly in chapter 21?
JT I think so. That is a culmination of thoughts such as we have in the beginning in chapter 4, where John is caught up into heaven, and all that follows that, and then we come to our own things and atmosphere. In the meantime this prophetic matter has to be attended to, “For the spirit of prophecy is the testimony of Jesus” (Revelation 19:10), so that we are happily in these things; outside no one understands.
Rem This inability to understand would be judicial.
JT Yes, certainly. In Matthew we have what we may call parabolic ministry, in chapter 13 particularly, and the idea is that the truth is hidden, but that is because it is judicial. So God is asserting that He is not pleased with what is in the denominations of Christendom, and the parabolic and the prophetic ministry are like a veil to them.
AM John is willing to turn back to see.
JT I think so; John represents a brother; he is not as the Archbishop of Canterbury, but a brother; here he is not even a great apostle, even though he is [p. 159] that; and as he has access to God, he retains the brotherly spirit, and that is the great hope for all of us. In the late wars it has been seen, the brother that suffered in all kinds of ways, and yet found his way to where the brethren were. So it says, “I, John, your brother and fellow-partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and patience, in Jesus, was in the island called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus”. He was in prison, as many have been and still are, not suffering for anything exceptional, but in an isle called Patmos, and yet he was in touch with the brethren, and the position there was held because of the testimony.
Ques Why “Jesus” so often in this book?
JT It is to bring out the personal relations of the Lord to the brethren.
Rem These features and this spiritual power enable them to be with the Lord and to go through the declension.
JT Yes; “And when I saw him I fell at his feet as dead; and he laid his right hand upon me, saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last, and the living one” (verse 17); that is the word for John or for anyone else; it is to assure him he need not fear. So the Lord says further, “and I became dead, and behold, I am living to the ages of ages, and have the keys of death and of hades”; how wonderful, what power! And then what John has to write; the Lord has His finger on everything. He has His Johns now, and hence all the writing!
Ques Does His right hand indicate power?
JT Yes; as much as to say, I know you, and all about it; I know the public position; I tell you not to fear, and hence come up to heaven, and that is the inlet to chapter 21. There is no pretension with him, but a man “in the Spirit” has access to heaven.
Ques What is implied in John’s becoming “in the Spirit”?
JT It refers to Christianity, and whether things are being changed from the actual to the spiritual, as with Peter in Acts 10; the same things are true now as then. “I became in the Spirit”, John says; he is capable of being changed, but it is not so visible now as it was. We are not pretending to anything. These are facts of a peculiar nature here; they are not found anywhere else; they are apocalyptic, the veil is removed.
Rem “I became” shows the exercise he had to become wholly spiritual.
JT Yes; in his ordinary circumstances John was not in assembly as far as we know, like Jesus Himself as a Man here in ordinary circumstances, yet it is said of Him, “subsisting in the form of God”, Philippians 2:6. These scriptures show it is not ordinary, for it is the Apocalypse and a premium is attached to it; Revelation 1:3. And even at the Lord’s feet John had to learn that there was something more that he had to do, to write. The revival began with the understanding of the prophetic ministry.
Ques Why does He say, “I became dead”?
JT It is prophetic language.
AH John needs seeking out.
JT Yes; when Paul was in prison, some did not seek him out, but some did; 2 Timothy 1:17.
AWP Could you help us further as to the ecclesiastical position and the prophetic position?
JT Ecclesiastical refers to the church, and then the prophetic position is apocalyptic.
FI Do you make a difference between John and Paul?
JT Yes, certainly. Paul is the ecclesiastical man; he would get you out of the world, but the prophetic man is John. So John is holding to Jewish terms, but in new creation, and we have it here,
“Behold, I make all things new” (Revelation 21:5), and then we have the political thought of the “new Jerusalem” (verse 2).
Rem All is new in Christianity.
JT Quite so.
Rem In the recovery, J.N.D. devoted himself first to prophecy, and then to the kingdom, and then to the assembly.
JT Quite so.
Rem So that we have the topstone in the assembly ministry.
JT Yes. But John was the man loved and reserved. Peter was the official man, but John can be anything, “If I will that he abide until I come” was said to Peter (John 21:22), and here we have it. John is loved, and he loves the brethren; he is the man I need, and it is a question whether the Lord can take us on, and we can do anything for His pleasure.
Rem Paul speaks of “the testimony of the Christ”, 1 Corinthians 1:6.
JT This is not the testimony of the Christ but “the testimony of Jesus”.
Ques Is there a distinction between that and the word of God?
JT The word of God is Himself. It is said in Hebrews 4:12, “the word of God is living and operative, and sharper than any two-edged sword”, and that upturns everything, and lets the truth out. The Lord can speak mysteriously, as to the state of the assemblies, etc.; but it is the word of God that is used every Lord’s day evening by persons to expose what is wrong.
AH Paul is concerned”to complete the word of God” (Colossians 1:25), but John shows us how.
JT Yes. Do not forget the kingdom. So there is to be power in our meetings, not mere platitudes.
Ques What is the significance [p. 162] of the seven assemblies here, and the one assembly in Revelation 21?
JT The seven refer to localities, and the one to the whole assembly. It is a question of state, whether we are usable; John was “in the Spirit”; that was the secret.
Ques What is meant by “a bride adorned”?
JT Where did she get it? It does not say. She got it in relation to ministry, and what the Spirit of God is unfolding.
Rem We should be careful as to how we hear the ministry.
JT Yes; it is not a question of the colleges; it is what the Lord has. The ministry now is to prepare the Lord’s people for Christ.
Ques Does it involve His service of “washing of water by [the] word”, Ephesians 5:26?
JT Yes; and “Blessed [are] they that wash their robes” (Revelation 22:14), which is prophetic.
Rem That is peculiar to John’s ministry.
JT Yes. How the Lord trusted John. He trusted him with His mother; she is constituted John’s mother, that is John takes her into his own house. Wonderful, when you think of what He thought of His mother! The Lord is doing things in a mysterious way, and has men He can trust to do them for Him. It is a mysterious thing.
FI Can we apply this to the service of God, and the assembly being His, Christ’s, companion, as adorned for Him?
JT Yes, indeed, “as a bride adorned for her husband”.
AH It is the beautiful feminine position. We often hurry over it on Lord’s day morning.
JT Well, I agree. We had a little of it this morning, when the Lord was with us. John’s relations with the Lord are most important to consider; he is one He can trust; “Fear not”, He says, and [p. 163] then He tells him who He is. That is all opened up in the ministry, the Collected Writings of J.N.D., and the like. The brethren are few, and yet there are many letters of commendation bringing together and continuing what He has all over the earth. The local position is emphasised here in the seven assemblies; that is where He is, “in the midst of the seven lamps one like the Son of man”; Revelation 1:13. He does not take on anything like the Church of England, but His own church. What a description of quality we have! We can have anything for a meeting-room, but the Lord maintains His own dignity.
GJD It is a “great voice” in chapter 1:10, and a “loud voice” in chapter 21:3.
JT Very good.
Rem There is what the Spirit says, too.
JT Yes; this is the time of the Spirit’s speaking; who can question it? Rome says, the Church speaks; it is a lie!
AH John’s ear was attuned to the speaking.
JT Yes.
AM What is meant by John’s seeing the voice (Revelation 1:12) and in chapter 21: 1,2, “And I saw”; does seeing enter into the present time?
JT Persons who see go back to the gospel for a second touch as in Mark 8:25. It meant that he saw everything clearly, and if that is properly understood, the Revelation can thus also be understood. It is the Lord’s book, His own book; who understands it? Not puzzled by it, for those who see understand.
Ques Do we know anything of the bride being adorned for her husband?
JT It is today; it is a great ministry through J.N.D. and others, the Lord’s supper and now the assembly.
FI We say sometimes, We do not see a thing; do we make room for the service of the Holy Spirit?
JT [p. 164] Well, if we look into things they become clear.
Ques Are we to develop wifely features and sympathetic feelings?
JT Yes; and so in our prayer meetings things get unfolded, they are opened up there; it means loyalty to David, “Thine [are we], David, and with thee, thou son of Jesse”, 1 Chronicles 12:18. It is “For where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them” (Matthew 18:20), so that to the “two of you” (Matthew 18:19) everything is clear.