A PLACE OF PROTECTION
[p. 127] A PLACE OF PROTECTION
AH We have been thinking of this book in the light of the word that “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify these things to you in the assemblies”, (chapter 22:16), seeking to get moral and spiritual gain from looking into them, and would be glad if you would say a word in that relation as to this chapter.
JT This book was evidently given later than John’s epistles, necessitated by the conditions of the assembly as to the truth in general, so that it is said, “Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his bondmen what must shortly take place; and he signified it, sending by his angel, to his bondman John, who testified the word of God”, Revelation 1:1,2 so that the word of God is involved, because the things are signified, not simply inspiration but signification.
This chapter may be regarded as one of the most distinctive as pointing to the signs. Here a great sign was seen in the heavens; therefore it is a question of signification, meaning that things are unfolded by signs, not simply in the sense in which the gospel speaks of signs, and not exactly wonders, but still they are wonderful things, they are really wonders; so here the sign is called great, and it is “a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars” — rightly called a wonderful sign, but we have to find in the Scriptures identification. The sign involved is to be identified, and it calls attention to Israel, not the assembly but Israel, because she has the marks of Israel. “A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars”. She is clothed with authority, the sun being the ruler of the day, and then the moon [p. 128] being subordinate light, light in the sense of authority; and then we can see the identification of Israel in the number twelve, the crown of twelve stars, meaning that the idea of administration is attached to her. God has a way of showing things administratively, carrying them out administratively.
AH As we are with God we are able to understand His secrets?
JT Well, that is good; we have to do with persons here; the woman clothed, and then her child. He is called “a male son” — a most remarkable thing, as if the male side is stressed, the masculine side, and He is to rule the nations with a rod of iron. “And she brought forth a male son, who shall shepherd all the nations with an iron rod; and her child was caught up to God and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred [and] sixty days”. That is to say, the persons, the numbers, all point to other scriptures, enabling us to identify the persons, so that we surround ourselves by these persons and think of them and see how they act.
FI Would you say that the thought of having Israel in view in administration, the male child being born, would show that the Administrator is coming in in relation to the earth?
JT Yes, she is not the administrator; the administration is to be in His hands, there is to be a male son.
AM Would this scripture in a way apply to Isaiah 8 and 9, “Behold, I and the children that Jehovah hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel” (Isaiah 8:18), and “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given”, (Isaiah 9:6)?
JT Very good, opening up the prophetic word; but this book is extraordinary, it is not what may be regarded as setting out scriptural knowledge, but the [p. 129] setting out of signs. In Isaiah 9 we are told that “His name is called Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace” (or ‘of the age’ ), verse 6, so we get opened up there in a truly prophetical sense what position Christ is to occupy in the coming age. He is said to be the Father of the age to come.
AM I was wondering about the persons being the signs. You emphasised persons here in this section.
JT They have force in that chapter. They are signs and wonders in the truly prophetic sense, not the apocalyptic sense which marks the book of Revelation by itself, it is an apocalypse, an unveiling of things, whereas the great prophets and the lesser prophets give the ordinary sense of the prophetic word.
FI Do you mean that this is the unveiling of that which you get in the prophetic word?
JT Yes, the veil being removed, that we can look at things and understand them; therefore the whole of the Scriptures are to be before us in the understanding of this book, and therefore there is a premium afforded to us, a blessing afforded to us, for reading this book because it is more difficult than any other book, and therefore there is a premium accorded to those who read and understand. It is called a sealed book by most Christians, but it is to be understood, and those who read and understand have a premium given to them, they get something for doing it, more than they get ordinarily for reading Scripture.
AH That premium to which you refer seems to clearly indicate that the persons reading it would understand it. It says, “they that hear the words of the prophecy, and keep the things written in it”, Revelation 1:3 — if as a result of their reading and enquiry they keep these things. I was wondering as to this matter of government, whether it has a peculiar bearing as seen in the assembly [p. 130] today.
JT Well, I think it has. The principle is really set out in the assembly. The principle of administration is brought down to our meetings called care meetings, rightly called care meetings. The word, ‘care’ in regard to meetings of the assembly is found in Timothy, those who take care of the assembly. I am sure that the Lord attaches great importance to it, especially honouring those who care. It is said, “how shall he take care of the assembly of God?”, 1 Timothy 3:5. It is called the assembly of God in that epistle and carries with it the great importance of our care meetings as over against the assemblies of this world, which God honours, too, in the sense that the powers that be are ordained of God and they are used of God, they are set up of God, and they have assemblies and parliaments and so on, and God is honouring them, but not in the sense of the assembly because in the assembly He helps the saints to do things in accord with Him. There is no such thing in the parliaments of this world, but there is in the assembly.
TM Is there a link between this chapter and the opening of Matthew’s gospel, the birth of Christ, and the dragon?
JT I would say that fully — the persons, the generations of Jesus Christ, the “Book of the generation of Jesus Christ”, Matthew 1:1. The persons involved in generations run down for a long period of time — forty-two generations. These represent what God has used, as having taken up Abraham; Christ is called”Son of David, Son of Abraham”, Matthew 1:1. It is the most distinguished and dignified setting in the whole record of Scripture or of the world, the persons of those generations, and so we find Joseph. The line is brought down to Joseph; it is Joseph, not Mary simply. It is Mary in Luke more, but in Matthew it is Joseph; that is to say, the male side is in mind, and that is in mind in this chapter, too, the male side, but Joseph is the son of David. He is in the royal [p. 131] line and he is distinguished as a righteous man — two points that ought to be before us in this book as well as in the gospel of Matthew, because the gospel of Matthew is the assembly gospel, and hence the great stress laid on righteousness-that Joseph was a righteous man.
AH That would seem to link up with what you were referring to in Isaiah 9, “Of the increase of his government and of peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with judgment and with righteousness, from henceforth even for ever”, Isaiah 9:7.
JT Very good; one of the things perhaps that we have least of — righteousness. We have considerable knowledge, but righteousness is the thing, and it is the first thing to be followed, according to 2 Timothy, not simply have it but pursue it so as to have it, because it is available but it has to be pursued.
AB You said the book has to be understood and it says at the end of Daniel, “the wise shall understand”, Daniel 12:10. Is there any relation between these two?
JT Very good. Daniel is the most personal of all the prophets. “Thou shalt ... stand in thy lot at the end of the days”, Daniel 12:13. And then it says, “Blessed is he that ... cometh to the thousand three hundred and thirty-five days”! Not simply 1,260 as here, but 1,335 days; one who waits and counts to that particular time.
TM Do we see in this chapter that the gates of hades do not prevail?
JT Well, that is what we see throughout the book, really. We see the application of that may be placed on Israel, because the woman is preserved and the male son prevails, and elsewhere He opens the book, the book of the inheritance.
AM Would you say that while the male side is the objective, there is some moral significance in the reference to the woman and to travail and to pain?
[p. 132] Are not those great moral features that are needed before the masculine side is fully developed?
JT Just so, so that we are directed to Genesis 3, what the woman had to suffer to produce her seed, the seed of the woman. She has to suffer and so the line is worked out on that principle. It is said here, “being with child she cried”, she is in travail and in pain to bring forth. That is a principle that we have in the assembly, of suffering, but it also applies to Israel for the divine thoughts are worked out in the feminine side in suffering; so the remnant of Israel would suffer more than any other set of people. Her suffering is alluded to as Jacob’s travail.
HAH Do you think the matter of travail specially comes in in relation to the administration and care in the assembly you were speaking of?
JT I think the Lord watches the dear brethren as they wend their way to their meeting rooms to take up the care of the brethren in each gathering. I think the Lord is greatly interested in this, they are not to be neglected, and as a rule, I believe, when there are only monthly care meetings the Lord’s day following the meeting is usually marked by particular grace and support for the service that is carried on.
Rem So that the care meeting would have a subduing effect on us.
JT The brethren who attend those meetings are specially supported.
AH Is the fruit of the care meeting as in Acts 15 something like what you are suggesting? Things having been administered before God it results in such joy as that.
JT Yes, it was pursued with care. The apostles and elders came together to consider the matter, and then Peter gave his verdict or judgment as to how the truth was brought about and what part he had in it. He had a leading part in the assembly. The Lord said, “I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom [p. 133] of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens”, Matthew 16:19. Peter spoke after the apostles and elders had come together to consider the matter, and then James confirmed what he said. And then the whole assembly wrote a letter confirming what had been done, and it became confirmatory of the whole position of the assembly worked out at Jerusalem.
Ques Do you attach this thought of authority in any way to that?
JT Well, there was authority at the very outset, it was the authority of the elder brethren. Paul and Barnabas went up to Jerusalem to see the brethren, and the order that marked that meeting was that what Paul and Barnabas were doing among the Gentiles was first considered, and then there was much conversation. Peter gave his verdict, and then James confirmed Peter, and then the letter went out to the assemblies and it was carried by Paul and Barnabas and it was confirmatory of the whole position at that time, and, I believe, in order to understand the thought of the care of God each should learn what is seen in Acts 15. It is true that Barnabas and Paul later divided from each other for the moment, but the general facts stood, and the whole matter was confirmatory of the whole position, and therefore these care meetings are of prime importance to heaven, I believe.
Ques Would Jeremiah 32: 11 have any bearing on that, the thought of “the writing of the purchase, that which was sealed, ... and that which was open”, and then in verse 14 they were to be put in an earthen vessel? I wondered if the idea of being preserved in Israel is suggested there.
JT Very good, and what is preserved in the assembly at the present time is there and to be carried out in the millennium because the assembly grows to a holy temple in the Lord, and she becomes in the [p. 134] millennial day the earthen vessel in which these are preserved, so that persons in that day will be able to communicate with the earth and give the mind of God as to what is needed; the assembly will be the thought throughout, that is the temple of God, the mind of God, will be there. That is how I think the millennium will be carried on. It is the final thought of God in men as we are now. It is not in glorified persons but in persons who are living on the earth but instructed by God from the assembly. The assembly will be above but she is in relation to it. There are persons ruling over ten cities and five cities. The assembly is never seen on the earth but she is over it and able to communicate the mind of God to it, she is near enough to it.
Rem The moral influence would be right.
JT Quite so, so that earth and heaven are to be in accord, there is never to be any break again in that sense, although there is a break in the end (Revelation 20); they come up to attack the beloved city, but there is no success in the attack at all, but fire from heaven puts that to an end.
AH All that is anticipated in a living way in the administration in the assembly.
JT Just so, that is what our care meetings mean, and then it is seen what is there to support us. “Where two or three are gathered together unto my name, there am I in the midst of them”, Matthew 18:20. He is there in power.
AM But assembly administration today is not on the line of the iron rod. Does Matthew 18 indicate that forgiveness is a great point today in her administration?
JT It is grace, grace upon grace, the teaching of John. Whilst Paul has the general structure of the position in mind, John has the spirit of the thing more, and so it is grace upon grace. That is the principle in the spirit of the assembly in administration.
[p. 135] EB We used to think that the primary thought in regard to assembly discipline was the maintenance of the holiness of God’s house, but I have noticed that there is considerable emphasis on the spirit of Christ and that recovery is in mind and the priest going out in the spirit of recovery.
JT Very good, Galatians, which is a very severe epistle for a Christian epistle, yet says, “If even a man be taken in some fault, ye who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of meekness, considering thyself lest thou also be tempted”, Galatians 6:1. Galatians is remarkable in that it provides for recovery, and the idea is that if anything happens to a brother or a sister and some fault occurs, it is not that there is to be discipline exercised, but that restoration should take place, and the word has in mind that there should be a re-setting up of the whole position; that the failure of the person should not be allowed to damage or permanently interfere with the function of that person, but that he should be restored to take his part, to be set up where he ought to be in the place that perhaps he has lost, but he is to be set up so that he should continue to function in his position.
HAH The real objective — would it be the promotion of the features of Christ?
JT The word ‘restore’ — how important it is! You will see how Galatians contemplates what has been said.
Rem The word ‘mend’ is in mind apparently.
JT The same as the ‘mending’ of the nets in Matthew 4:21. See note g to 1 Corinthians 1:10. You say, Well, we have lost so-and-so, he is not what he used to be. Well, then, if he is not, why not? The spiritual would see in regard to that brother, or sister, that they are taken care of and set up as they used to be, so that we have not lost [p. 136] them.
AH How about the man in 1 Corinthians 5? Paul seems to urge them to take the matter up, but then likewise he has to urge them to restore him.
JT Well, that supports what we are saying. Paul says, “that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus”, 1 Corinthians 5:5. “In the day of the Lord Jesus” is a long way ahead. The spirit of grace operating in the assembly would set the person up as he was before. Beautiful! The man was restored before they expected. The apostle has to urge them to do it.
AH I was thinking when he speaks about this matter in chapter 5 it says “ye and my spirit”. Do you think it was because he could not trust the spirit of the Corinthians in the first epistle that he has to refer to his own spirit?
JT Well, but the word “that the spirit may be saved” is there, too. It would appear that they did not function as they should have done. The apostle did not say that his spirit should not be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. He did not there make allowance for the fact that the man might be restored earlier, which he was, and we should always be ready to hope in our hearts that a man might be restored long before we might have expected him.
AH I am much exercised as to what you are saying because here we are faced with an exercise of someone who has neglected her privilege at the Supper for some considerable time, and now refuses to see the brethren, and we have wondered what we should do. We have waited patiently in grace, but she persists. She says she does not want to have any more to do with us.
JT Then her will is active. If her will acts you should act, I would say.
Rem The letter in Acts 15, “It seemed good to us, having arrived at a common judgment, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ”, Acts 15:25,26. I thought that was in relation to the suffering you have been speaking about. They have arrived at a common judgment together.
JT I think that is a wholesome word because sometimes we are not united as to what should be done when we come to judicial action. It is a great moral force if we are united in what is right.
Rem The names of these men are cleared, Barnabas and Paul, of any suggestion of looseness.
EZB Would you help me in regard of the rehabilitation of a brother who has fallen? Should it come from one who is spiritual or from the one who is withdrawn from? We know of a case of one who has been withdrawn from, and we have all been praying and we are waiting for some movement from him.
JT If there was any movement in the brother, there is no objection to any person bringing the matter forward.
AH Have you in mind, Mr. B., in your question, when one is under discipline someone should go and see them?
EZB Well, we have restoration in mind, and I wondered whether the first move should be from those who are praying in regard to him or whether we should wait for some move from the particular brother himself.
JT Well, there would not be any difficulty as far as I see. If anyone among the saints made a suggestion, that he had some good ground or was being exercised, the liberty that belongs to us in the assembly would belong to them.
ECM Would the thought in the epistle to the Corinthians encourage us to show grace and encourage?
JT Very good.
Ques Does not that involve that God sovereignly comes in in healing? We used to think that once a [p. 138] person was under assembly discipline, unless God sovereignly came in there was nothing the brethren could do.
JT Leviticus always contemplates that there is a priest, it never says ‘if there is a priest’, it is what the priest is to do, he is the man to move in Leviticus as regards leprosy. The priest might be a sister, you know. Anybody might observe something that would indicate that God is working. The liberty that belongs to Christianity would suggest that we should say so. We should not think that we are not to say anything about it. There should be no lack of priesthood or priestly service.
Ques Would Matthew 18 come in here, “So it is not the will of your Father who is in the heavens that one of these little ones should perish”?
JT Very good, showing the importance of these little ones.
TM Can we draw comfort in the application of verse 6 as to the place prepared by God for the woman, and the nourishing for the whole period of the 1,260 days?
JT Very good, that brings up the whole matter of the position of the woman and how she is cared for, and then the position of her seed. It is said, “And the dragon was angry with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus”. Well now, in verse 6 it is said, “And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred [and] sixty days”. And then we have, “And there were given to the woman the two wings of the great eagle, that she might fly into the desert into her place, where she is nourished there a time, and times, and half a time”. The first reference, in verse 6, gives the period in days, showing that there is more minuteness in the thing [p. 139] being followed up, but in the other verse it is on the principle of time, times and half a time. There is less minuteness, but then she herself knows where she is, and so it says that she flies (verse 14). She knows her place. There is the same number of days in the first reference only more minuteness than in the other reference. The woman here is an object of great care, but she also is learning and she knows her place and she takes things up in a more general way — time, times and half a time. And then she is accredited with having a remnant “who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus”.
Ques In the first instance would she have got the gain of the nourishment with which they nourished her, God’s provision in the first instance to prepare her for what was further?
JT Quite so; they have the commandments of God and they have the testimony of Jesus. They occupy a more official place even than she does; there is more of a moral feature attaching to the remnant of her seed.
Ques Would it be right to say with regard to the wings that furnishing comes in as we need it?
JT Yes, and the ability to get out of the way of the devil. The male son is taken out of the way, her child was caught up to God, to His throne, but then he is taken out of the way of the devil altogether; but the woman, it says, “fled into the wilderness, where she has there a place prepared of God, that they should nourish her there a thousand two hundred and sixty days”. God would take us out of the way of the devil.
Ques We have not necessarily to stand up against opposition then?
JT Well, there is the suggestion of God giving special consideration for us in times of stress. In the last war many of us were kept out of the way.
[p. 140] Ques Is that seen in the early chapters of Matthew, “take to [thee] the little child and it’s mother”, Matthew 2:20?
JT Very nice; the mother is taken, not the Child by Himself, as if the Spirit of God would provide for the Child; but the care of the mother is in mind. It is not simply the father’s care but the mother’s care.
Ques Would you say these principles are operating in the epistle to the Galatians? Paul speaks of travailing, and then he speaks of the fulness of time and the seed of the woman.
JT Quite so; they are operating in Paul himself. Certainly it is what we are seeing in chapter 12; they are operating there in the whole meeting, the whole assembly, but this matter of the man Child is remarkable. It is being taken out of the way, and the woman having the wings of flight, she is nourished as being taken out of the way. That is a great comfort at the present time. There is so much confusion among governments, and among industrial conditions, too, that there is a great suggestion of God’s gracious care extended to keep us out of the way of evil.
Ques There is no suggestion that the suffering will ease for the Christian company, is there?
JT There is a suggestion that the divine care is extended in the power of flight.
AM Would you say that Satan has been cast out into the earth yet? The Lord sees Satan as falling out of heaven after the ministry of the seventy.
JT That is only a prophetical allusion to what is here; that did not happen at that time. It is more what the Lord would say, that He saw Satan falling out of heaven, but I think he is there yet, that there is spiritual wickedness in the heavenlies.
Rem James encourages us to draw near to God, to resist the devil and he will flee from us.
JT Well, it is the woman’s flight here, and it is for young people to keep out of the way [p. 141] of evil.
AH Does this touch on the thought of hiding? The Lord Jesus hid Himself.
JT The Lord Himself hid Himself. It is quite right. Why should I put myself in the way of evil? Resist evil, but the way is to keep at the meetings; do not stay at home from the meetings; young people should keep among the brethren. They need the protection of the brethren.
Ques Is that what you had in mind to say about the “place”?
JT I had not thought of it before, but it occurs to me now. It was her place, she knew her place, she knew where to go.
Rem The disciples went to their own company.
JT Just so.
Ques Why is her place in the desert?
JT Well, it is a wilderness position, what Israel experienced in the beginning. It is God showing that He would preserve His people from those conditions. John the baptist was preserved in the deserts, and it says that he was there until the day of his showing to Israel, but the showing forth in the Old Testament is that God makes a protection. The tabernacle in the wilderness was to preserve the saints, to preserve the right thought amongst them.
Rem The word is different here; in the first instance it is ‘wilderness’, in the second it is ‘desert’.
JT The words are the same in verses 6 and 14. There is nothing to support you in the desert. There is nothing for the spiritual in it. There is nothing for us but God’s support.
‘In the desert God will teach thee
What the God that thou hast found —
Patient, gracious, powerful, holy:
All His grace shall there abound’. (76:6)
There is nothing else but God, we are shut up to God, and very few of us know what that means.
Rem Israel being borne on eagles’ wings and brought to God.
JT “I have borne you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself”, Exodus 19:4. Most touching!