THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON
[p. 266] THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE FATHER AND THE SON
Rem The main thought was to get help as to the personal relations suggested in this chapter between the Father and the Son and the saints, and how it enters into our relations and the service of God. The Lord says, “Father”, and the personal pronoun is used so much; the personal relations are brought out more here.
JT It is a unique chapter.
Rem Our feeling is that our deficiency in the service of God, as in other things, is due to our lack of intimate knowledge of the Persons, and of one another, too. We should serve better if we knew the Persons better to whom we speak in prayer.
JT Perhaps there is nothing in which we are so deficient as the knowledge of divine Persons, and how here They turn to the saints. We should learn from what we see in the Scriptures, especially in the gospels, what They will be with us eternally. In Genesis 1 we have “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”, and in John 1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”, and immediately we have the means by which God communed with men. So we have, “And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over the whole earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth on the earth. And God created Man in his image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them”, Genesis 1:26,27. So that the idea of manhood is seen throughout, and especially in John’s gospel.
So John 1:4 reads, “In him was life and the life was the light of men”, that is it is a question of men, and it was “man” in Genesis 1; and in Genesis 5:1 there is a further reference, “This is the book of Adam’s generations. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him. Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created”.
Ques Do you think the faculty of speech in man is the instrumentality which God will use in this thought of the Word in John 1?
JT We have many expressions covering this thought in John and elsewhere. It is the divine means of communication with man; it is nowhere more expressed than in John’s gospel.
Rem The Lord breathing into the disciples in John 20 shows that.
JT A very good reference. He breathed into them the breath of life, and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit”, John 20:22. So the power was given peculiarly by speaking; it is on God’s side to men, and of man to God, and the Lord Jesus communicated the power of reception of the Holy Spirit, “Receive the Holy Spirit”. It could not be said of any other creature, though angels participate in what man has in a general way, “When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy”, Job 38:7.
Rem 1 Corinthians 13:1 suggests they are eloquent in speech.
JT Quote it, please.
Rem “If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels”, 1 Corinthians 13:1 They get that place; “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out for service on account of those who shall inherit salvation?” Hebrews 1:14. So that the sons of God are seen in Genesis 6:2, and the “heroes” or “men of renown” arise, a link [p. 268] between angels and men. So we get them throughout Scripture, especially in Revelation.
Now in John 17 we have, “These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father”. There you get the most beautiful communications between God and Man. “As thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that [as to] all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. That is that all whom the Father has given the Son are to have eternal life, and the knowledge of the Father and the Son, and we are to be brought into it.
Rem This chapter is really an opening out of verse 18 of chapter 1.
JT The declaration by the Son is part of the declaration there; I would say that. The Lord turned away from His disciples, and ceased speaking of those things, “and lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son may glorify thee; as thou hast given him authority over all flesh, that [as to] all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal. And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. So both the Father and the Son are to be known through this communication.
Ques Could we have a word as to the introduction of eternal life in view of the great matter of the relations entered upon?
JT As has been said before, it goes back to John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal”. This is an enhancement of that; “the hour is come ... that as to all that thou hast given to him, he should give them life eternal”. So that it is the great thought [p. 269] of the gift, and what the thing is, as stated in John 3:16. God loves men and the world in fact, and that is why eternal life is given. What an opening up there is as we place ourselves in relation to men, men as given to the Son by the Father, and what is known between the Father and the Son, and the men given to Him, and what the life eternal is, see the note, ‘(emphasis on eternal)’; not simply life, but eternal life.
Ques Eternal life consisting in knowledge, is it therefore a matter of the mind?
JT Men once said the eternal life is a Person, Christ. But it is what it is, that kind of life.
Rem It is life exemplified in men.
JT Yes. In due time we shall see that when Paul comes on to the scene, the whole thing is beautifully and intelligently given. Verse 3 says, “And this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent”. John says also, “He is the true God and eternal life”, 1 John 5:20. So we must be careful, and meditate on the two passages. It is spoken of in connection with the Father and the Son.
Ques What is the thought of the only true God?
JT To overthrow idolatry.
Ques And what is the thought of the Lord Jesus as “the true God” in 1 John 5?
JT It is an opening up of the thought, and of the names of divine Persons. The Spirit is the true God, too. We have to submit to the thought of what is inscrutable. It bows our hearts and subdues us, that we should be brought into it at all.
Rem We should be guarded as to how we speak of the Deity. It is what we have in the Spirit.
JT “No one knows the Son but the Father, nor does anyone know the Father, but the Son, and he to whom the Son may be pleased to reveal [him]”, Matthew 11:27. If we are to be brought into all this [p. 270] it is to produce holiness, and see that this is promoted in us, and get the right feelings.
Rem “Pursue peace with all, and holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord”, Hebrews 12:14.
JT Quite so.
Rem We should read this scripture contextually and get to the Father.
JT Well, compare spiritual things with spiritual. All the time possible needs to be devoted to these things, to reading and prayer. From the divine side all is done, but from our side we have to see what is possible.
Rem “That they should know thee” — so intimate and personal; it is devoid of the official side, so our part is less formal in the assembly. How great the Father’s pleasure to hear the Son speaking in this way!
JT Then there was the voice from heaven, the Father’s voice to the Son.
Rem “I have manifested thy name”; that would be the Father’s name.
JT It is “manifested”, too; we are to keep that in mind. It is a question of the affections, and we are brought into it, that is, into what is manifested.
Rem Hence the glorious place of the Spirit.
JT Quite so; hence He says in John 20, “Receive the Holy Spirit”.
Ques “For the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and they have received them”; is that the receiving you speak of?
JT “Received them”; how much receiving has there been of what has been ministered?
Ques We should be Bereans, to see if things are so. The lack of believing is because of our lack of receiving.
JT You spoke of it in prayer. How much there is to search out, as for hidden treasure!
Ques As to “I have completed the work which [p. 271] thou gavest me that I should do it”; in Jesus the work was finished, but is there the Lord’s thought that we should complete things, and not leave them unfinished?
JT Certainly go in for things; especially the young are to lay themselves out for them.
Ques What is meant by the word ‘manifested’?
JT It refers to what is brought to our attention, that we may apprehend; so that what is manifested becomes simple. It is much used in John’s writings. It comes three times into John 21. So that the Lord is not hiding Himself, but opening things up to us. So in this chapter, “this is the eternal life, that they should know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth, I have completed the work which thou gavest me that I should do it; and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world. [p. 273] They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word”. Beautiful thoughts, and the Lord attributing it to the saints, that they have kept the Father’s word. John would help us, so that we may be in things and keep them.
Ques Is there a link between “I have manifested thy name” and what is said in John 1:14, “and we have contemplated his glory”?
JT “We have contemplated his glory, a glory as of an only-begotten with a father, full of grace and truth”, John 1:14. In verse 6 here it is “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world”. Notice that. And then, “They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things that thou hast given me are of thee; for the words which thou hast given me I have given them, and [p. 272] they have received [them], and have known truly that I came out from thee, and have believed that thou sentest me”. The Lord is thus crediting us with it, in principle, at least, as if the Lord would say at that time, ‘In principle they have kept what the Spirit has been ministering’. So that the Lord would assure us that in some sense at least, in principle, it is so.
Rem It goes wider than John 6:68?
JT “Thou hast words of life eternal”; this is more than that.
Ques Does it imply that what was in Him as “the Word” now has a definite place in the saints?
JT It makes all a verity as we are drawn after Him. We need to be assured of things at times.
Ques Is that why He says so often, “Verily, verily”?
JT Good. It is an expression found in John alone. It occurs twenty-four times in that gospel.
Rem What came out in Christ is continued in the saints. “Thy word” is equal to the testimony of God in a complete sense. Is that the word which we have now?
JT The Lord would say certain things about us to the Father, as a man loves to speak of his children, and the Lord is like that: “Children”, He says in John 21:5.
Rem He says, too, “I am glorified in them”.
JT Yes.
Ques Does the thought of “the words” in verse 8 imply things developed among the saints in a conversational way?
JT I am sure the Lord is looking on, and would call attention to what we are, and what we have taken in. That is what will happen in heaven.
Rem Verse 6 is to impress us with “I” ... “Thou” ... “they”
JT Let us read it, “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world.
They were thine, and thou gavest them me, and they have kept thy word”, that is the Lord is calling attention to us according to what we are, and John’s gospel is intended for that. We are before God, before each other, and before the universe.
Rem In Acts 10 the men sent from Cornelius say to Peter that he had been “divinely instructed by a holy angel to send for thee to his house, and hear words from thee” (Acts 10:22).
JT Yes; and what does the angel say earlier?
Rem “Thy prayers and thine alms have gone up for a memorial before God”, Acts 10:4.
JT Then the Spirit speaks to Peter in verse 19; He is brought into it.
Rem “The word” is enlarged on in Acts 10:36.
JT It is “the testimony” of the Lord Jesus (Acts 10:37); the divine command. Cornelius had already built up a memorial for himself in heaven. It is remarkable what the work of God is in men, and how the Lord glories in it.
Rem “I am glorified in them” runs through the whole dispensation.
JT I hope so, and what has been brought about in it.
Rem The feeling way that the Lord prays for the saints in verse 11 shows how He values them.
JT And so He proceeds in verse 12, “When I was with them I kept them in thy name; those thou hast given me I have guarded, and not one of them has perished, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now I come to thee. And these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in them” This shows a further thought, how the Lord desires to fill us out and beautify us for His own service. He is filling out the assembly; He has died for her.
Rem Verses 22 and 23 are a wonderful conception.
JT Read them.
Rem “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one [and] that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that [thou] hast loved them as thou hast loved me”. The intimacy implied is indescribable.
JT It is indescribable, and that we should be brought into the range of it.
Ques When the Lord says “I demand” in verse 9, it is the emphatic ‘I’; is that because of the lovability of the saints? The ministry of Christ had that effect.
JT Especially life; it is that that is so beautiful in creatures. John enlarges on it; his subject is life, eternal life. It is worked out in his epistles, because God loves us. In the epistle it is because we have it. Life is the most glorious and beautiful thought there is.
Rem It answers to the full divine blessing for man in Psalm 133:3.
JT That is a well-known passage in the Psalms.
Ques What is involved in “the glory” in verse 22?
JT I suppose it would be sonship, “And the glory which thou hast given me I have given them, that they may be one, as we are one; I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one [and] that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that [thou] hast loved them as thou hast loved me”. There is no doubt verse 22 is sonship. The glory the Lord had as Son is imparted to them.
Ques Could you say a word as to verse 5, “And now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”? Could we know anything about that glory?
JT It is inscrutable glory between Themselves. What can we say? Who has seen it? Not even angels have seen it.
[p. 275] Ques That being so, why does He bring it in within the hearing of His disciples?
JT To enrich them. That is what the Lord is doing to give us a sense of the enrichment He is bringing to us, and bringing us into.
Ques Is the sequel in verse 10? “And I am glorified in them”.
JT What enrichment there is in that! We have to learn to get accustomed to these things. We had it in Birmingham. It was one of the richest times, marked by the brevity in which the brethren were enabled to speak.
Ques What is the thought of sanctification in verse 17?
JT Let us read it, “Sanctify them by the truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the, world, I also have sent them into the world; and I sanctify myself for them, that they also may be sanctified by truth”. He is doing it as an example.
Ques Does it involve our presence in the world?
JT Just so. He was not speaking to glorify Himself, but speaking of what we are.
Ques Does what the Lord says of Philadelphia come in?
JT What are you quoting from?
Rem “Behold, I make them of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews, and are not, but lie; behold, I will cause that they shall come and shall do homage before thy feet, and shall know that I have loved thee”, Revelation 3:9.
JT Made to worship before her feet! It is wonderful.
Rem The saints are “called saints”, that is sanctified persons.
JT Very good; it is an expression in Romans 1.
[p. 276] Rem Yes, and other expressions, too. It refers to their dignity publicly as in the testimony.
JT The assembly is the greatest of all families in the universe; they are “called saints” (Romans 1:7); and so in 1 John 3:1, “that we should be called the children of God”, and “we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is” (verse 2).
Ques What would the glory be in verse 24?
“Father, as to those whom thou hast given me, I desire that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory which thou hast given me, for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”.
JT That is the second reference to the foundation of the world. In verse 5 is the other, “and now glorify me, thou Father, along with thyself, with the glory which I had along with thee before the world was”; the “me” is emphatic; but in verse 24 it is a great and glorious presentation there to enrich us.
Ques “Before the world was” is outside of anything, but “before the foundation of the world” (verse 24), is it all that would come into display?
JT Verse 24 is what is brought into our range. The other in verse 5 we can leave, because it is such a definite statement.
Ques In verse 24 is it the glory we see, the glory of a Person bringing in many brethren, many sons, the assembly, the world to come, the eternal day; is it His glory?
JT He is speaking of us, glorifying us, and He loves to do it because He has such affection for us. We are what He has made us.
Rem He is there now as Man exalted. He has a divine right to be there.
JT He became a man, and what He was before the world was has to be left. Only divine Persons have seen it.
Rem It [p. 277] is inscrutability.
JT That is the word.
Rem The assembly was in the thoughts of God before the foundation of the world, but Israel came into view after the foundation of the world.
JT That is the thought. There will, I suppose, be no Israel after the world to come. “Men” is the thought.