THE SON LEADING HIS OWN TO THE FATHER
[p. 431] THE SON LEADING HIS OWN TO THE FATHER
John 11: 41, 42; John 12: 27 - 30; John 17:1, 6; John 17:26
JT I thought we might consider these scriptures in connection with the thought in Hebrews which speaks of the Lord Jesus as the “Minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man”, Hebrews 8: 2 — that we might learn by His example of speaking to the Father, and the instruction in this section of John’s gospel, what the sanctuary is, and how He serves in it as Minister; also that we might see how valuable all this instruction is as having its bearing towards the Father, so that we might know what it is to have part with Christ, because that is what comes into this section, in relation to His service of feet-washing. Then, as having part with Him that we might see how He carries on His ministry in the sanctuary as indicated in these chapters, beginning with the 11th to the end of chapter 17. The priest of old in the type, as you all will remember, was to minister to the Lord in the Priest’s office, his sons associated with him in the service; and both the high priest and the sons of Aaron are seen here in the antitype in these chapters. As we understand them we shall know better how to take part in the assembly, because that is really having part with Christ. Ministry in the assembly Godward is having part with Christ. I suggested the earlier scripture, because the Lord in speaking to His Father says, it was on account of those that “stood by”, chapter 11: 42. Then in chapter 12, He expressly states that “Not on my account has this voice come, but on yours”, (verse 30). Chapter 11 says, “On account of the crowd who stand around I have said it, that they [p. 432] may believe that thou hast sent me”. In chapter 17. He speaks evidently in the hearing of His own.
Ques Does all this indicate the intimate relations between Himself and the Father, so that we may learn in that way, how to approach the Father?
JT That is what I thought we might see; whilst He is Son and speaking as a divine Person, He is also Man, and intimates that we are to be with Him in this service. It is essential we should understand these chapters, if we are to have part in the assembly intelligently. The Lord had set out earlier that “God is a Spirit; and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth”, chapter 4: 24. So we need to be instructed. It is set out here, how we should speak to the Father, and the place the Father should have as we are in assembly.
Ques Does John limit the idea of the sanctuary to God, or does he carry it on to the Father?
JT Also to the Father. What I observe in moving about among the brethren, is an unnecessary mixture in our addressing divine Persons. The Lord Jesus is Head in the assembly, and a divine Person, and is entitled to honour even as the Father is; but He is pleased to take an inferior place in order to minister to the Father, and in that service He associates us with Himself. The various scriptures read, therefore, suggest to us that He is speaking more in the way of a model, that we might learn, first, to believe as to Himself, and then as to the Father. In the first scripture we read, “He lifted up his eyes on high” — I think that expression “on high” is meant to suggest elevation in a moral sense, the power of vision directed thus.
Ques Do you connect what is “on high” with the sanctuary? In Psalm 78 it says, “he built his sanctuary like the heights”, verse 69.
JT Yes. We are to be withdrawn from the current level of so-called “divine service”. The expression “divine service” is allotted to what is not really that, but something on the level of man and this world. I think the Lord would lift us in our vision outside and above that.
Ques Would chapter 4 show us the distance from which the Lord would draw us, so that we might be near Him in the appreciation of the Father?
JT I think that chapter 4 is rather the power in us for elevation: the well springs up “into eternal life”. John 4 agrees with the general thought of elevation in the gospel. The lifting up of the eyes on high, suggests the power that may be in us by the Spirit, to direct our vision upward.
Ques Did you say that ministry in the assembly is having part with Him? If so, would you say another word as to what you mean?
JT That is what comes out in this section. Instead of the Lord’s supper in John’s gospel we have chapters 13 to 16, beginning with the idea of having part with Him. They were already sitting at table together, but He rises from supper, and girds Himself with a linen towel, and washes their feet. Peter objected, but the Lord said, “If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me” — showing that what is in His mind is that we should have part with Him. Then the lifting up His eyes “on high” in speaking to His Father, would denote the power of vision directed upwards. The Lord’s supper has to do with the period of His absence; it is during His absence from the earth that we are occupied with what is here in the way of memorial, and we have a great deal in connection with order in 1 Corinthians. But all that being dealt with, as we recall the Lord in the supper, there is power of vision which may be directed upward.
Ques Had the Lord this in view in the first chapter when He said, “Come and see?” Is our education all [p. 434] to that end?
JT That is suggestive. We are called upon to see from the outset of this gospel: “Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending and abiding on him; he it is who baptizes with the Holy Spirit”, John 1: 33, 34. Our vision is taxed peculiarly in this gospel. “On high” is something that belongs to the assembly; our eyes are directed upwards.
Ques Have we to be conscious of the Lord’s touch before we look up?
JT I think so. We get a touch in the supper, and He moves. In the assembly you look for an indication of movement in Him. The more spiritual we are the more we shall understand the movements, and the more we shall discern the trend in the assembly. The Lord is seeking to draw us into the spiritual realm and make us spiritual: in saying in this gospel that “God is a Spirit”. He has in mind to make us spiritual, for we must be spiritual to have to say to God; and then He says, “the Father seeketh such to worship him”.
Ques Would the first verse of chapter 13 have that thought in mind?
JT That is how the section begins. As they are together it is a question of His going to the Father, and His drawing them with Him in what He says and does; so that having said certain things to them, in chapter 17, He “lifted up his eyes to heaven and said, Father”. In chapter 11 He lifts up His eyes “on high” — giving the idea of moral elevation, but when you have “heaven” you have a place. Those who witnessed that would never forget it. When one of His disciples asked Him to teach them to pray, according to Luke 11, He answered “When ye pray, say, Father”. He does not say anything about attitude. We have to learn to say Father, first, then as apprehending Him on high, and then, as in heaven, so that we are drawn into the place. We have the Lord’s example here, and the Holy Spirit [p. 435] as the Spirit of adoption cries in us, “Abba. Father”. That is the normal cry of the Spirit in us: “God has sent out the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father” — showing how urgent the thought is. He would impress us with that; He would direct us to the Father. Then in Romans we cry, “Abba, Father” by the Spirit of adoption; we have learned to do it, but in Galatians 4: 6. He has done it first. The praising in the assembly is to be by the Spirit.
Ques It says in Luke’s gospel that Jesus went according to His custom to the mount of Olives, and His disciples followed Him. Would the Lord put things in an attractive way to us thus?
JT I think He would. The word “custom” in that connection is to be noted, it is peculiar to Luke. The idea enters into the assembly, but it is never a mere formality. The Lord never did anything in a customary way as a merely formal thing, it was always in power. The thing had been proved to be in power, so that we need not be afraid of using forms of expression as customary, provided they are in spiritual power. “He went, according to his custom, to the mount of Olives, and the disciples also followed him”. All the customs we have seen in Christ, should be regarded in that way; they are proved to be profitable and right, and therefore always in power. In chapter 12 the Lord says, “What shall I say?” That is a good question for us to ask ourselves in taking part. The Holy Spirit will help us as to what to say in assembly. I think that if we challenged ourselves thus, we should hesitate in saying many things. It was not, of course, that the Lord would say anything imperfect, but it is as an example to us. He tells us His soul is “troubled”, and adds, “What shall I say?” What should one say as one is affected emotionally, for one’s emotions enter into the assembly? Each would do well to ask, “What shall I say?” One may have [p. 436] a thought prior to coming to the assembly, but I think we should always challenge ourselves, “What shall I say?” — it keeps us in dependence.
Ques Why does the Lord say, “On account of the crowd”? and in the next incident it is on their account — it would seem to indicate that the Lord was dealing with things beyond them?
JT That is a good suggestion. In regard to the crowd He says, “that they may believe that thou hast sent me”. Even that enters into the assembly, because we may be there otherwise than in faith. A movement of the Lord touches us, but very often we are like a crowd. It says of Paul and Barnabas in Acts 11: 26, that they taught a “large crowd”, and we may be in the assembly on the principle of a crowd. We have to be regulated and brought into accord with Christ, both inwardly and outwardly, for we may be together outwardly but not inwardly. In Acts 1, it says the Lord assembled with them, and we have to be spiritual to grasp that thought.
Ques It was in the presence of death and corruption that the Lord lifted up His eyes on high: is that the region out of which He would attract us?
JT He would draw us into the realm of resurrection, so that it is true of us that we have passed “from death unto life”. We have the thought in Colossians 2, of being raised “through the faith of the operation of God”, and of our being “quickened together with him”. All these passages have in view our being associated with Christ in a living way.
Ques “I go to prepare you a place”; is that the thought of the sanctuary?
JT That goes beyond the sanctuary. The sanctuary is a term that belongs to our position here in flesh and blood condition, but it has no force in heaven, for all is holy there. It is rather the family thought when He speaks of “my Father’s house”; it looks into eternity. The scripture goes on, “I will [p. 437] come again and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also”. It is a question of place and association with Him eternally. What we are speaking about is association with Him in the sanctuary now; the sanctuary being an exclusive thought, securing what is due to God in the midst of death and corruption — answering to God in spite of these things.
Rem In chapter 16, it says, “Ye shall ask the Father in my name”.
JT He encourages them to ask and to speak to the Father. He says, “If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I”: He would draw them into that relation.
Ques Are resurrection conditions suggested at the beginning of chapter 12, as opposed to death and corruption at the grave of Lazarus?
JT That is the idea. In the sanctuary we see how all that is corrupt is excluded by the power present. The dead man Lazarus was there, “whom Jesus raised from among the dead”. He sits at table, and Martha serves, and Mary takes the pound of ointment and breaks it upon Him. You feel there is an atmosphere that is exclusive of all corruption. Judas intervened, but the Lord rebukes him.
PH In Psalm 133, one of the Songs of Degrees, it speaks of brethren dwelling together in unity, and in the next Psalm it says, “lift up your hands in the sanctuary”. Is that your thought?
JT Yes. Psalm 134 is the last of the songs of degrees.
Rem And Psalm 121 commences, “I lift up mine eyes unto the mountains”.
JT That is good. The fact is the Songs of Degrees have in view what we are speaking of; it is elevation by degrees until we reach the top. David reached the summit in leaving Jerusalem and he worshipped.
[p. 438] He is driven out by Absalom but he did not fail to worship. You find at times when we are about to reach the summit, someone will address the Lord in such a way as to pull us down; at least that is the trend. We should all have in mind that the movement is upward. The Songs of Degrees are a gradual ascent until we reach the top. Of course, it is only in the power of the Spirit, but the Spirit is present. We may thus ascend the mount of Olives, as it were. We have in Luke, “the descent of the mount of Olives”, which is right in its place, but we have also the ascent.
EG If the Father has been addressed and I have it in mind to speak to the Lord, should I not pause and ask, “What shall I say?”
JT You should indeed.
Ques Does what you say answer to Joshua 3, where he says, “Remove from your place, and go after it?”
JT The ark there is Christ in power dealing with death; this enters into the position, but Christ in these chapters in John is leading to the Father. There is a lead given in a spiritual way, and we have to learn to move spiritually: “as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”, and one feature of the Spirit’s leading is that He cries, “Abba, Father”.
Rem “The people hasted and passed over”.
JT That is good. The Lord would have us to hasten and follow Him. As we recall Him and He has His place amongst us. He would have us hasten on, not, of course, literally, but He would encourage us not to linger too long on the lower level, but to hasten and pass over. It is said of Mary the mother of the Lord, that as the angel departed from her she went with haste to the hill country of Judea.
Ques Would you tell us what is the secret of moving intelligently in the assembly, with regard to what you have said — so that we do not move back [p. 439] after the Father has been addressed? What is the secret of being kept on right lines?
JT There is a great general principle governing the assembly, that is, its proper function is Godward. That is the prime thought. But then there is the presence of the Lord in it. As soon as He speaks to the disciples, in chapter 14, of the Spirit, that the Spirit would come and be with them, He says, “I will not leave you orphans, I am coming to you”. That is a promise which the Lord has never failed to keep where conditions warrant it. It is obviously a spiritual matter, because He is in heaven corporeally. He will come for us corporeally at the rapture, as the scripture says, “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven” to receive us to Himself, but meantime it is a spiritual matter, the medium of action is the Spirit. In the Old Testament the medium of action in this sense was angelic. God came and visited His people in that way — Abraham and others, but now He comes in virtue of the presence of the Spirit, the Comforter, in the assembly, and the next thing is. Am I spiritual? I need to be spiritual if I am to be in the assembly according to God. These chapters contemplate spirituality in us, so that we can discern movement. It is a place of spiritual action, and the Lord is supreme in it. He moves in it. It is for me to be sensitive enough to discern His movements; and as He moves towards the Father, to move with Him.
Rem We cannot move to the Father unless we move with Him.
JT That is the thought. It is a question of being sensitive and of challenging ourselves: “What shall I say?” I may have a hymn before I come to the meeting: am I going to give that hymn out? It is a question of, “What shall I say?” If I ask this I shall be checked in carrying out any decision reached before the meeting: there should be no decision [p. 440] reached as to what to do in the assembly, before we get there.
Ques What is worship “in spirit and truth”?
JT It does not mean there by the Holy Spirit, but spirit in contrast to letter or mere form, and my own spirit is brought into the worship. I cannot get promptings before I come into the assembly, but I get them in the assembly; then, too, I am regulated by the truth. Then again, the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
Ques Is that where He sings to the Father?
JT If He can get us in condition for such a holy, exalted service; that is, if we are great enough spiritually, that is where He sings: “in the midst of the assembly will I sing thy praises”.
Ques Do we need to give place to the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary in order to be intelligent?
JT That is what I am thinking of. The point is to give place to Him; that would check any decisions before we come to the meeting, for the assembly is the place for spiritual promptings; and then challenging oneself as to what is said and done.
Ques What is the difference between the leading of the Lord and the leading of the Spirit in the assembly?
JT That is an important matter. If you take as an illustration the end of Luke’s gospel, the Lord led them out as far as to Bethany, to that point; but what they did afterwards is left to their own intelligence and this would now make room for the Spirit. The Spirit leads sons of God: “As many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God”. He cries in us, “Abba, Father”. I have to understand how He does that. He does it through our affections — through us. So that we qualify as sons of God as led by Him, and that cannot be by [p. 441] arriving at a decision before I come to the assembly, as to what I am to do, but I wait till I am there.
Ques It involves that I am leadable?
JT Yes. If I come prepared with an outline of what part I should take then I am interfering with that.
Rem At the end of Luke they did the Lord homage and continued in the temple. Would it be right to render homage to the Lord?
JT It is suitable in its place of course — in relation to His supper, for instance; “Worthy of homage and of praise” fits there; but there is a good deal after He is apprehended thus, and as intelligent we know that He is there as Minister of the sanctuary, and that the service of God is in His hands.
Ques Would you confine His service as Minister of the sanctuary to what takes place after the Supper?
JT Yes, properly. What precedes that, is what we do as remembering the Lord. The Lord’s supper is what we do, for we come together for that.
Ques Would it be misjudgment to bring in the Father in connection with the cup?
JT Quite unintelligent. We must not reverse the order.
Ques How does the thought of headship enter into this?
JT As the Lord is discerned, we accord Him the place of Head, and that gives Him the lead. But then there is the Spirit too, who represents the subjective promptings and the work in us. He operates in our spirits and affections, and these movements are taken on by the Lord. There are the two things, the Lord is Head, but the Holy Spirit operates in us, and is power in us for the promptings in our intelligence and affections.
Ques Can that be seen in Rebecca being led by the man to [p. 442] Isaac?
JT Pretty much, but it only takes us as far as Christ and the assembly. Instead of taking her to the Father typically, he takes her to his mother Sarah’s tent. The bearing of that is the assembly here in testimony; but the Lord would take us in with Him to the Father. Isaac’s going to his mother’s tent is not going to the Father. This passage contemplates the Lord going to His Father and taking us with Him.
Ques Does He take us first to Bethany?
JT You might say that in the sense that Bethany is the place of love; this would be through the supper. The position in the assembly at the outset is that; we come together to do something, which brings out what the assembly is in this world. Intelligent persons have come together with something in view, and they carry it out. The quality of the assembly is brought into view in the way in which we do things, and our calling Him to mind will give occasion to the Lord to move towards us. You have it in the gospel by Matthew. He appointed them a place of meeting, and He came to them at the appointed place. Some doubted, but they worshipped Him, it says. But He went on: He joins us and proceeds according to what is in His own mind.
Ques What is the import of the expression “Thou hearest me” — in chapter 11?
JT He was heard from the horns of the unicorns; the Father heard Him, and then He declares His name to His brethren, and then He sings in the midst of the assembly.
Ques Is the importance of this that not only the Lord gets His portion but the Father also?
JT That is the point in the assembly, “To him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus”.
Rem In Genesis 45, Joseph says, “Haste and go up to my father”.
JT Quite so, his father was in his mind. In John 14, the Lord suggests movement: “Arise, let us go hence”, but without saying where to.
JOS At what time does this adjustment take place?
JT It is a question of discerning the Lord first. You say, “It is the Lord”; you say it in your soul. John, Peter, and the other five, had gone fishing according to the last chapter of John, and as they see the Lord standing on the shore. John says, “It is the Lord”. As He is discerned in the assembly we own Him as Minister, and it is for Him to do what He may have in mind. Am I sensitive enough to discern what He will do?
Ques Why are the company detained in chapters 15 to 17?
JT It is in keeping with what we have been saying. The Lord says, “Arise, let us go hence” without saying where they are to go, nor does the passage indicate that they did move at that exact time. The two chapters following, 15 and 16, are very full for there were many other things to be said, but what is suggested is a new position, “Arise, let us go hence!” Where is He going? What is in His mind? We know from the other gospels that He went to the mount of Olives; and we know from chapter 18 of this gospel that he went to “a garden”; but here, there is no indication of an immediate actual movement, it is more a spiritual suggestion. When He says, “Let us go hence”, I am on the alert as to what He is going to do. So He proceeds to say a great deal about the Father, and fruit for Him. That is what comes in. Chapter 15 deals with fruit for the Father, for I am in the assembly for the Father, and am I bearing fruit? Is there that which comes out of my heart for Him?
[p. 444] Ques Is it serving in the sanctuary for the pleasure of divine Persons?
JT Quite so; I am on the alert.
Rem It is preceded by “... I love the Father, and as the Father has commanded me ...”
JT He had already said, “If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for my Father is greater than I”. That ought to be noted. These are spiritual things that enter into the assembly.
Ques As God, would the Lord Jesus share in the praises to the Father?
JT That is a little forced. He is God, but He is Minister of the sanctuary. If a thing is said, the question is where is the scripture to support it? We cannot think of Him as God and Man at the same moment. It is the Father who is worshipped as God in the assembly. It is of the greatest importance that our thoughts should be regulated by Scripture.
Rem At the end of chapter 17 He says, “I have made known to them thy name”.
JT Yes, in the first verse you will observe that after having said certain things. He “lifted up his eyes to heaven”. There is no word said about movement; it is having said certain things, which points to a more intelligent platform reached, a more spiritual level. In chapter 14, it is movement, “Arise, let us go hence”, but now, having said certain things He lifts up His eyes to heaven. It is a question of what is said — what enters into the position; and why this movement of His eyes as He addresses the Father? All that has to be taken in and understood. Then in verse 6, He says “I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world”. Every person in the assembly ought to be able to take account of what He is speaking about. “Manifested” is a word which John uses considerably. It is something brought to our attention that can be easily seen; it is not obscure or beclouded.
[p. 445] At the end of the chapter He says “I have made known ... thy name”; that is a deeper thing. Firstly, the idea is manifested, and the disciples are called “men”, persons who are developed and capable of discerning what is manifested.
Ques In speaking of the Lord as Minister of the sanctuary in connection with the first day of the week, do you carry the thought on to other meetings?
JT Yes, but I think the meeting for the breaking of bread is normally the assembly in function, and the other meetings flow out of that. They are not on the same level, for there is the idea of the “ascent” and “descent” of the mount of Olives. The descent, would be like the meeting for prayer, when we come down to actual needs; where we think of the interests of God as involving need.
The assembly is properly where He ministers, although as Priest and Advocate He cares for the saints individually. In 1 Corinthians 11 we have the assembly in function, so the section begins, “When ye come together in assembly”. Elsewhere it is, “when ye come together ... into one place”; but when we come together “in assembly” alludes to the functioning, and that runs right through. It is a question of the ascent and the descent. Both are right, but if we transpose the positions we are wrong. If I bring in a hymn or thanksgiving addressed to the Lord when we are ascending I am confusing the service. The Lord is gracious and does not repudiate us, but we lose, and the Father loses.
Ques Would a word of ministry that would adjust that be appropriate?
JT It is very useful as the Lord blesses it. You make it clear that you are not terminating the meeting, no one should do that, and the Lord often helps in a word early in the meeting to regulate and stimulate the worship.
[p. 446] Rem It may be a word of correction or a word of wisdom.
JT A word that adds to what has preceded, enriches the company. At the end of chapter 17, we have what greatly enriches the saints, “I have made known to them thy name”; it is a deep, inward service to the end — as the Lord says here, “that the love with which thou hast loved me, may be in them, and I in them”. That is a wonderful statement; it is not simply covenant love, it is not covenant love between the Father and the Son, but it is that exalted character of affection between the Father and the Son. He makes known the Father’s name, to the end that that love should be in us. There is enrichment in that exalted character of love, so that we might be qualified for having part with Christ in the assembly. Then He adds, “And I in them”; there is thus to be spiritual body and richness amongst us.
Ques Does the word “men” indicate that these features are secured in the saints?
JT I think so. The use of the word “men” indicates men in the full spiritual sense of the word. It was said by the Queen of Sheba to Solomon, “Happy are thy men”. Men are capable of taking in things in maturity.
Ques You spoke of covenant love as not that which is between the Father and the Son?
JT That should be clear to us; nor is the covenant between God and His sons, but God and His people. It is not the same as the love wherewith He loves the Son, that is on a higher level. Covenant love goes on to Israel, but enters into the supper, for the cup is the new covenant in His blood. The “love wherewith thou hast loved me” is an eternal thing. It is descending love, so to speak, not horizontal. We can enter into that, it is to be in us. We could not have descending love between divine Persons in absoluteness, there it must be on equal terms; but the [p. 447] love in revelation — the love of the Father to the Son — is a descending love, just as the love of the Son to the Father is an ascending love, and we can enter into this. Verse 24 is what is proper to Themselves before incarnation: “Thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world”. The last verse speaks of the love of the Father to the Son and that is to be in us. Think of the enrichment of having that love in us, and Christ in us!
Ques It says the name is made known; is that further on than manifestation?
JT It is a deeper thing; the Lord operates and makes the Father’s name known to us.
Ques Do you think that Mary touches the lowest point?
JT Mary looks into the sepulchre, but the Lord’s message, “Go to my brethren”, etc., would direct her gaze upward; He says, “I ascend to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God”. Again, He says to her, “Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended”; our links are to be on the line of ascension. What comes in in the rest of the chapter is the completion of the subject. “Mary of Magdala comes bringing word to the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had said these things to her” — and then the Lord Himself comes in.
Rem In chapter 11 it says, “they took therefore the stone away” — suggesting that there is a right start. If we start at the bottom, the Lord will help us to rise.
JT We are taken out of the realm of the sepulchre; Christ is risen; the Lord spoke to her as risen, and then directed her into the realm of ascension.
Ques What is involved in “And will make it known”?
JT What is in the message through Mary to the disciples. The Lord would stress the importance of it, for it is a great matter. It is the kind of knowledge [p. 448] that is in the assembly; it is the richness of the assembly; but it stretches on to ourselves; the Lord will not leave us out of it. The saints should know the Father’s name.
Rem It is not limited to time, but “I will” involves His pleasure in it.
JT It is His determination to see to it; the thing is to be done. Thus in the assembly I am free as knowing the Father and I am ready to be led in service to Him; I am sensitive enough to feel an impulse. An unborn babe was affected at the voice of a spiritual person in Luke 1: 44, and no person in the assembly could assume to be less than an unborn babe. The youngest of us can be sensitive enough to be moved at the Lord’s voice.
Rem So we may be able to say “Father” without understanding the full meaning of the title.