ASSEMBLY ORDER
[p. 26] ASSEMBLY ORDER
JT I think John presents the assembly from the spiritual point of view; that is, what the assembly is as formed by the Spirit, and its inner privileges; whereas Corinthians presents it in its external character as that in which the divine order is seen here in this world; so that the apostle makes a point of what the outer world might see in the assembly. Therefore he says — “Let all things be done decently and in order”.
Rem It is manifestly on a lower plane than John 20.
JT Yes, I think so. Corinthians is the assembly of God viewed in its local character as that in which divine order is displayed. In that way Corinthians corresponds with the book of Numbers, which sets forth the testimony in the wilderness. I think that the wilderness may be divided into three sections. The first section is what the people under God had known in pure grace, as having been delivered by Him out of Egypt. Then followed the legal period: that is, the people under law; and lastly, the people viewed typically as having the Spirit. This latter is prefigured in the book of Numbers from chapter 21 onwards.
Ques Would that answer to Romans 5 to 8?
JT No. Romans does not give us the collective side, whereas Numbers does. The book of Numbers is in relation to the tabernacle, and the priesthood, and the Levites. This chapter 14 of 1 Corinthians gives us the assembly as convened, and shows the order and operations that are there.
Ques Will you give an outline of what leads up to this, from chapter [p. 27] 11?
JT Well, I think that the details will all come in their right place if we see that it is the assembly viewed as established here under the eye of the world, and not the assembly viewed in its heavenly relationship as in John 20. So the apostle speaks of the Jews, and the gentiles, and the assembly of God. It was a very great thought with God that He should have His assembly. It could be taken account of as an institution set up here, apart from the world, but in the presence of the world.
Rem In contrast to that which is purely the work of the Spirit of God, and under God’s eye.
JT Yes, just so; that is more John’s line; he presents the inside view, whereas in Corinthians it is the outer aspect — what is under the eye of the world. It is one thing to be here, in this world, under the grace of God; that is the wilderness position up to Exodus 19. It was all a question of pure grace, and a very wonderful period; but then, if God is to have an organization in the presence of the world, there must be a rule; and the collective testimony stands related to the law. I am not referring to the law now merely as that which brings the knowledge of sin; the law is really a type; it was the declaration of God’s rights. The tabernacle was set up in connection with the law, and the book of Numbers depends on the tabernacle; so that the collective testimony in the types stands related to the law. What answers to that in the New Testament is the first epistle to the Corinthians.
Rem There we get God’s order for His house, and God’s order has to be observed.
JT Yes; so that this epistle is what you may call “the law of the house”. The order that is spoken of here is not for heaven, and it necessarily terminates; but what we have in the gospel of John is eternal.
Ques Does not verse 37 confirm what you say — “[p. 28] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord”?
JT Yes. We cannot suppose that God would have a system of things here without rule.
EJMcB Government is a great principle with God.
JT Yes; so that one prominent feature in the temple was the cherubim, not only in the holiest of all, but also upon the walls and upon the doors. The cherubim, I think, represent God’s government; the holiness of God is seen in the seraphim. The assembly is a provisional order of things filling up the interval between the ascension of Christ from the earth, and His appearing in glory; and it is established in the way of testimony. That is, God’s order is to be displayed under the eyes of men before it is displayed literally in the heavenly city. So that here, it may be noticed, the apostle is concerned about the impression made on those who are without. For instance, if anyone came into the assembly and went out again, he would report what he saw inside — he would have to confess “that God ... is indeed amongst you”; and he would gather that by observing the order that was found there.
EJMcB Because there was inside that which was for the believer and also for the unbeliever.
JT Yes, the unbeliever is supposed to be able to take account of what is of God there; so that he is convicted; he is impressed that God is there. I think that is a great point.
Rem A brother here told us, some time ago, about a person being exercised about the truth, who heard through another of a little meeting near the place where he lived, and he said, ‘I cannot say much about it, but what struck me was that God was there’.
JT The great thought to lay hold of is that it is God’s assembly; it is not man’s; it is the sphere in which God is dominant. Hence the importance of the instructions that the apostle gives; and he intimates that the instructions which were to govern the Corinthian assembly were to govern all the other assemblies; so that you have what one might call a catholic system; that is, the government is the same universally.
EJMcB So that order is of great importance, because God is a God of order.
JT “God is not a God of disorder but of peace, as in all the assemblies of the saints”.
Ques What part of Corinthians answers to the second part of the book of Numbers?
JT The second part of Numbers is not a type of the epistle to the Corinthians, but I think that up to chapter 20 it is. What we see there is the tabernacle and the people set in relation to it; every male in the camp was taken account of “from twenty years old and upwards”. I take that to represent believers as having the Spirit. Each was to pitch by the standard of his father’s house. I think the age of manhood has reference to one who has the Spirit. The age of thirty would allude probably to the effect of the Spirit. In the book of Numbers what is striking is the order in which everything is arranged. It was a very great sight to behold a company of that magnitude all controlled in relation to the tabernacle.
Ques In that way would you view what we have here as the instructions following on chapter 11?
JT Well, I am speaking of the epistle as a whole. What I would like to make clear, if I can, is the setting of the epistle. The assembly is not viewed here in its heavenly privileges, but as the sphere of God’s government and order in the presence of the world during the absence of Christ — Israel, where these testimonies were, being forsaken. It is God’s assembly in contrast to what man might have. Man had much in the city of Corinth, but God [p. 30] had introduced something for Himself into Corinth, and that was His assembly.
EJMcB I think what would confirm that in one’s mind is that no unbeliever could enter into what the other side involves — John 20. It is perfectly clear that what is spiritual is entirely shut up to the believer.
JT The doors are shut against the unbeliever.
Ques Would you connect what you were saying with the announcement of His death? “Ye do shew the Lord’s death till he come”.
JT Yes. The announcement is a testimony here where Christ died. It does not say so, but in the context it is clear. Christ was put to death by men, and the fellowship is the fellowship of His death. That places the world at issue with God, and at issue with Christ; and we take sides against it. The world has expressed its estimate of Christ, and we express ours. The death of Christ is the expression of the world’s hatred, and we take account of it in another way: it is the centre of our fellowship.
Rem That would be in chapter 10, would it not?
JT Yes, but it is also alluded to in chapter 11. It says — “Ye announce”. The point in chapter 10 is to show that the individual member of the assembly is not independent; he is in a fellowship. Chapter 10 shows that no individual member of the assembly can do what he pleases in the world; and chapter 14 shows that he cannot do what he pleases in the assembly. So that in either case it is to set aside independency. Even if you have gift, your gift does not warrant you to be independent, for it is not given for you, but for the assembly.
Ques Would chapter 10 be the individual side, and chapter 11 the collective side?
JT The point in the former is that you are to behave yourself rightly outside when your brethren are not looking at you. The question is — are you an honest man? You have committed yourself to a [p. 31] fellowship, and you are where, perhaps, your brethren cannot see you. In the assembly they can see what you are doing, and hear what you are saying; so that the test is put to us as to whether we are going to be true men. An individual who links himself with the world really links the company with the world. That brings in another question, and that is, if you are not true you have to do with more than the saints, you have to do with Christ. So the apostle says, “Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?” You may provoke your brethren for a while, but if you provoke Christ. He will overcome you; you will come to grief. I believe that the so-called Christian world is at issue with Christ in that way. They have taken His name, and they are not true to it, and hence He is jealous, and “jealousy is cruel as the grave”. So that the Lord has power, and it will go ill with Christendom in time. The Lord has long patience. He waits long; but whether it be against the individual or the system, the Lord is bound to overcome. In meetings where there is looseness of walk and independence, the brethren may have to bear with it long, and perhaps have not the power to deal with it, but in the end it is as sure as can be that the person involved finds himself in a position which everybody discerns to be the judgment of the Lord.
EJMcB I suppose that is seen in the expression, “For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep”.
JT That is in regard to conduct in the assembly, but the principle is true. It is most serious to link up Christ with the world; it is connecting Him with what is idolatrous. The religious world is the Babylonish world. “Pure religion” is all right, but if it is divorced from Christ it is Babylonish.
EJMcB What you have been saying is very solemn, that you move about in a sphere where your [p. 32] brethren cannot see you, but where the Lord takes account of you.
JT It was the Babylonish world from which the people of Israel suffered, after they left Egypt. “I will transport you beyond Babylon” came in after the golden calf, and we know that Balaam came from that direction, and the goodly Babylonish garment was in Jericho. These are elements of the Babylonish world. The people thought of going back to Egypt; but they did not go back to Egypt, they went to Babylon. I do not think that christendom intends to go back to the world in that sense — it is too proud for that. It would not go back into naked paganism, because the light of christianity has added immensely to the world, and it makes the assumption of being superior to anything that ever existed before.
Rem To maintain the assembly order of which you have been speaking, we must have the “love” which is set forth in chapter 13. Gift in itself will not maintain it. Is not that why chapter 13 is put between chapters 12 and 14?
JT The machinery could not run properly without chapter 13; it is like oil.
Rem Chapter 14 begins by saying — “Follow after love”.
JT If we follow the teaching of the chapters, I think the 11th sets Christ before the affections, and the 12th is the activity of the Spirit in ministry showing how He operates in the gifts; and then the 13th is that which all may have. It will not do to say that such an one has not much gift, or that he has gift; the question is, What have you got? There is no reason why each one should not have something. It is a poor thing to depend upon those who have gift; the question with each should be. What have I got?
Ques Do you think gifts are to be acquired? It says, “Covet earnestly the best gifts”.
JT I think desire divinely produced, qualifies us for the gift, and God bestows gift accordingly.
Ques What would be the “best gifts” the apostle refers to?
JT That is the gift of prophecy, as the apostle shows. The point is, what can I make most use of for the edifying of the assembly; so that if you have not what is treated of in chapter 13, viz., love, gift is only a detriment.
Ques The whole point in chapter 14, I suppose, is edification?
JT Yes, that is the point; so that the apostle says he would rather speak five words to edification than a thousand in an unknown tongue. The assembly is an organism, and each member of it is essential to it; so the question for each is — What can I do?
Ques I was thinking of the verse in Ephesians which says, “Unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ”. How do you understand “according to the measure of the gift of Christ?”
JT That shows that each has something, and what he has is according to the wisdom and giving of Christ. It is according to Christ’s measure — you have nothing to complain of. Then there are specific gifts which He gives to certain ones who are qualified, and that also for the edifying of the assembly.
Rem You would say that He gives what each vessel can hold; it is according to His giving. He would not give anyone that which he would not be able to hold.
JT No. He gives according to the capacity. Now, the question in chapter 14 is, as to the part you take in the assembly, and the point is that you are to act intelligently.
Rem Such as on the first day of the [p. 34] week?
JT Yes, or at any other time, as when we are together for ministry. The wonderful thing is that God has brought into this world a company of persons spiritually intelligent, so that when they come together everything is done in order and intelligently. There is an intelligent faculty in the assembly which is self-governing, so that although there is no president, there is no irregularity and no disorder. The assembly has the mind, the thinking faculty of Christ.
Rem That was fully seen at the outset.
JT Well, we ought to walk in the light of it now. If a brother takes the whole meeting, that is not intelligent, because we should recognize that the assembly of God is composed of intelligent individuals, and the clerical idea is foreign to it. There may be others there who have something to say — something which the Lord would like to hear, and which the saints would like to hear.
Rem The spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
JT Yes, a person might say, “I could not help getting up, I was pressed”. But the point arises, Is it the time for it? If what you have is from the Lord, it will not go from you. I do not think that divine things are harmed for being kept.
Rem I suppose the coming together contemplated in this chapter would be more for the object of profiting from the gifts; it should be distinguished in that way from the meeting on the Lord’s Day, I suppose.
JT I think it is; it supposes “the whole assembly come together in one place”, and one has a tongue, another an interpretation, and so on. I take it that they rightly have these things before they come, whereas the assembly proper as come together on the first day of the week, is simply for Christ.
Rem It is a question of what He will [p. 35] do.
JT Yes, you are waiting on the Lord. But here it is supposed that you have something; and the question is, what are you going to do with what you have? How are you going to use it? The great point that is emphasised is that we should act intelligently.
Rem The apostle is not deprecating what they had, but regulating it.
JT Quite so. I have carried things for months, and I think we all should until there is an opportunity to give it out. If it is an opportune time, give it out; but the point is, you are not to give out what you have simply because you have it.
EJMcB I take your thought to be that whilst we should be always in a state to help one another, what we have should be used intelligently, and spoken at a time when it is to the best advantage.
JT Yes; we all go out and gather something “in hunting”. Encountering the world is no detriment to us if we are with God — it is really exercise that helps us spiritually. In the exercise you have gathered up something in regard to Christ, and in time you will have the opportunity of giving out what you have gathered, and then it will help the whole company; so that your very exercise contributes to the welfare of the whole assembly.
Rem You said that what you get will not suffer by being kept; but will you not suffer if you have it and do not use it?
JT Well, the Lord is very gracious; if you miss one opportunity He will give you another — the Lord is very patient; and your keeping it will tend to give you all the more exercise.
Rem What is the thought of a “psalm”? (verse 26).
JT It is not giving out a hymn.
EJMcB I suppose a psalm is something you have learned of God in your ways here?
[p. 36] JT Yes, the Psalms are expressions of experience. The book of Psalms is a wonderful book in that way; they rise sometimes to the height of Christ’s experience.
Ques Do you think this refers to the book of Psalms?
JT No, I do not think so, unless you found in the book what expresses your experience — and that is doubtful. I think a psalm is the mode of expressing your experience, so that in that way it is your psalm.
EJMcB “Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs”.
Ques You do not get prayer and worship here — why is that?
JT I think because here it is what is external. It is what comes before the eyes of the world that is set forth in this chapter. The apostle is not deprecating the Spirit — you cannot set Him aside; but “the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets”. In other words, a man is greater than his spirit. If he does not see it to be quite the right time to do something, he does not do it.
Rem Then you would say it involves spiritual intelligence.
JT Yes. Then in verse 34 he gives a word to the sisters. If such are exercised, and it is well that they should be, it is commendable; but the assembly is not the place to bring into evidence your relationship with your husband. The relation between husband and wife belongs to the home; hence if you want to ask anything, it is to be done at home.
Rem Will you say a word as to the expression “in the assemblies”?
JT I suppose it is the assembly as known in this world. It is not according to God’s order that a woman should be speaking there.
[p. 37] Rem This chapter contemplates the saints in assembly, and the order and rule that should be seen there, does it not?
JT Yes, it supposes what goes on in the assembly when it is convened. It is the place for the exercise of gift.
Ques Are the gifts here permanent?
JT They are permanent in the sense that they continue while the assembly is here.
Ques Should not the gifts act when we are together?
JT Yes, I think so; if we recognize the Spirit. He is sure to act. But then we have to be sure that it is the Spirit, and the test for that is that the ministry recognizes Christ in every way. A gift is a most valuable asset to the assembly, and any company where there is gift has an asset which it ought to appreciate.
Rem What we should seek is what is spiritual — “God is a Spirit”.
JT Yes. The early part of the chapter shows the working, so to speak, of the organism — that the gifts are subordinate to the whole; but then they have their own distinctive place, and God has set them in the assembly; but in their operation they must not be independent; they are set in relation to the whole company.
Rem There could be no clericalism if that was observed.
JT No. This chapter would be a remedy for clericalism. The point is that it is the “same” Spirit, so that there should not be any schism or division.
Rem Would you say that the Lord’s day morning is not the time for the exercise of gift?
JT Yes, I think the Lord’s day meeting ought to be simply for Christ. The assembly is for Christ;
[p. 38] the exercise of gift is more for us, though I would not deny that what we have in this chapter is a continuation of the first day of the week.
Rem You mean, we might have a meeting like this in the middle of the week?
JT Yes. The week is a symbol of the whole period of christianity, and we begin afresh every Lord’s day; so that all that follows in the week ought to have its beginning on the Lord’s day. One would not like to say much about these things, but the more spiritual we are, I think, the more we should seek to get something fresh every week that would give character to the whole week.