PAUL'S MINISTRY AND THE SERVICE OF GOD (3)

PAUL’S MINISTRY AND THE SERVICE OF GOD (3)

Ephesians 3; Ephesians 5:22,23

JT The proposal to link chapter 3 with the passage read in chapter 5 is because both passages enter into the service of God in its present phases, and it is likely that remarks and questions will include both passages. One meeting may not suffice to cover the ground indicated, so that we can easily pursue the subject of these chapters at the afternoon meeting, if necessary. In the main the third chapter treats of Paul’s own exercises and service, especially his knowledge of the mystery. Chapter 5 in the section read, also treats of the mystery, but more in its marital phases. Chapter 3 is somewhat personal to the apostle, calling attention to his imprisonment, only that his imprisonment was not because of felony, but because of his testimony. He was a prisoner of Christ Jesus, on account of the nations; as if the Lord detained him in Rome in order to work out in him the truth as to the nations. He refers to the accounts that the Ephesians had known or heard of the administration given to him by God, as he says, “For this reason I Paul, prisoner of the Christ Jesus for you nations, if indeed ye have heard of the administration of the grace of God which has been given to me towards you, that by revelation the mystery has been made known to me, (according as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ)”. Ephesians 3:1 - 4. He is concerned that the Ephesians should know the extent of his intelligence as to the mystery, and these allusions, of course, bring up the whole matter of intelligence, not simply Paul’s intelligence, but the bearing of intelligence now, and the importance of it. Some, perhaps, have more than others, but the apostle ^[p. 294] guards his own position in saying, that “To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given”. Ephesians 3:8. This would, of course, mean his own estimation of himself, indicating his humility.

FJF Is intelligence the fruit of love?

JT Well, one can understand that God would not grant such intelligence as is indicated here to one who did not have love in large measure. We have already been looking into the matter of love, in chapters 1 and 2; chapter 1 treating of it in its own place, its own home, as we said; chapter 2 treating of it in the sphere of opposition, including the power of Satan in the heavenlies, but it was the same love in both cases, and now it is love in intelligence; how love in God can trust a servant with great intelligence, because such a one has love too, as Paul had.

AJG What would be the point in Paul desiring that they should understand his intelligence in the mystery?

JT I think in the ordering of God it was right that such vast intelligence should at least be in someone, perhaps in no one as in Paul, because it might be dangerous to put it into the hands of one who was not wholly governed by love. We have often seen that, I think, that knowledge becomes dangerous in certain hands; in fact, Paul himself says it puffs up, but love builds up; so that what is needed in such a vast system of things as the mystery involves is that the truth should be built up structurally, so as to stand by itself.

WC Is the structure referred to in the reference to their “being rooted and founded in love”? Ephesians 3:17.

JT Quite so. Rooted and founded, meaning that the persons are rooted, their roots are in the right place, “take root downward”, as we are told elsewhere, “and bear fruit upward”; 2 Kings 19:30; founding is a further thought, it is a structural thought. The word foundation is made much of in that sense, “the firm foundation of God stands”, 2 Timothy 2:19, ^[p. 295] for instance.

EJB Is that why Solomon could be trusted with knowledge and wisdom to build, because he was a man that loved God and loved the brethren?

JT Just so. God was pleased with his prayer. He desired that he might know how to rule so great a people, not simply for his own account, but because they were God’s people. God is pleased with that in his servants. If anything is entrusted to us, bearing on the testimony or on the saints, God looks for the desire in us that it should be worked out because of itself, because of its own importance viewed by itself.

Ques Does the statement that what had been specially committed to Paul is now given to others; “revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit”, Ephesians 3:5, show that the truth is extended in persons?

JT Just so. The holy apostles and prophets as well as Paul himself. You are glad to share with others what you have in that sense. In the case of the disciple who saw the Lord praying, he asked the Lord to teach them to pray. He was not thinking of himself only, he was thinking of all, that the knowledge of how to pray should be with all. So in the case of Nathanael, in John 1, the Lord speaks in the singular to him, but He also speaks in the plural, and uses the word ye. The Lord had said to him, “Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig-tree, I saw thee. Nathaniel answered and said to Him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel. Jesus answered and said to him, Because I said to thee, I saw thee under the fig-tree, believest thou? Thou shalt see greater things than these”. John 1:48 - 50. And then, as if the Lord anticipated that He would be glad to have others to share in the greater things, He says, “Verily, verily, I say to you”, this is plural, “Henceforth ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of man”. John 1:51. The Lord evidently assumed that Nathanael would be glad that others should have this knowledge ^[p. 296] of the wonderful matters spoken of. Nathanael could not be exclusive as to this matter; others should have it too.

SMcC What do you understand by this expression, “the administration of the grace of God”? Ephesians 3:2, He does not say, the administration of the love of God, but “the administration of the grace of God, which has been given to me towards you”. Ephesians 3:2.

JT I suppose the thought of grace was needed, not simply the thought of love, but grace, because grace establishes and brings about enlargement on a lower level. So it is here, “if indeed ye have heard of the administration of the grace of God which has been given to me towards you, that by revelation the mystery has been made known to me, (according as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ,) which in other generations has not been made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets in the power of the Spirit, that they who are of the nations”, Ephesians 3:2 - 6, and so forth. I would say that grace was needed in view of the matter extending so far afield; that is, to the nations; grace was needed in them to take it in.

PHH How far does the feature of revelation apply today? It says, “that by revelation the mystery has been made known to me”, Ephesians 3:3, and then later, “as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets”. Ephesians 3:5. Would the first reference be unique to Paul? Would the second be by way of ministry, or would it be likewise a revelation to those other apostles and prophets.

JT Evidently it was to Paul first; whether he brought them into it, they were themselves joined in the great matter of testimony inaugurally, they were brought into it. It was due to them to be in it, being apostles. I would think that was how the apostle would regard the thing, not to confine it to himself as to knowledge, but to extend it ^[p. 297] to others.

AJG In the first chapter he prays that the “God of our Lord Jesus Christ”, “would give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation”. Ephesians 1:17. Does that imply that the element of revelation or rather the spirit of it, has to enter into our understanding of these things?

JT Well, I think so. The position would be that once a matter was revealed others were to be brought into it. So in Matthew 16, the Lord had raised a question of what His disciples thought of Him as the Son of man, and immediately Peter says, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God”, and the Lord said, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona, for flesh and blood has not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in the heavens”. Matthew 16:16,17. The Father was the source of that revelation to Peter and the Father’s thought would be that it should be among them all. Peter was distinguished and blessed in the fact that he had the revelation, yet the revelation being there it was common property, as it were, as truth. Some of us have thought and said, that the Lord carried on a community, for the disciples were like a community, of which He was the centre, and things would be spread amongst them. So that in the Acts, chapter 9, reference is made to “Peter passing through all quarters”; Acts 9:32; that is even before Cornelius was brought into the truth. Peter went to all quarters, meaning, it seems to me, that he was sensible, because of the Spirit of truth being current amongst the apostles, that a new order of things had been opened up already, new thoughts had been introduced. Paul was coming in, and all that was standing in relation to Paul, and that would mean, that the field of labour should be enlarged. Paul was to be made room for, and others too; Barnabas was coming in, and they were going out among the gentiles. I mean, that was in the Lord’s mind, and it was current, for the Spirit of God was always present, from the time He came down. As here in the testimony He would be the vehicle of all that would come out; and it would no ^[p. 298] longer be a question of the truth being exclusive property, it belonged to all the saints, and especially to those ministering. Hence Peter said things that would bear on what Paul was about to promulgate in his special ministry; namely, local responsibility in the saints in the assemblies; not any longer what may be called metropolitanism, which was right at the beginning, when everything was centred in Jerusalem. The new thought was that a man should get up and make his bed for himself; that is local responsibility, and Peter enunciates that thought in Acts 9. It is soon set out in what Paul and Barnabas did in chapter 14, where the assemblies are visited and set up with elders for protection and support. Henceforth the idea of the assembly in a universal way would be held in the thought of “Thus I ordain in all the assemblies”. 1 Corinthians 7:17. There is to be one principle, or one set of principles in all the assemblies, not any longer that any assembly would act for itself independently. It would act in relation to the general principle governing the assemblies.

EuR While this epistle is addressed to the saints at Ephesus, locally he brings in what is universal in saying, “in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints”. Ephesians 3:18.

JT Well, that is good; it just confirms what we have been saying. It is well to take it in, because if anything is advocated by anyone, especially if he is sure that the Lord has given him something, he is not exclusive, he does not wish to be exclusive, he wishes it to be spread. It is the common property, as it were, of the saints, in the power of the Spirit.

Ques Have you that thought of reception and spreading of the truth in the Lord’s instruction in Matthew 13:51? He says, “Have ye understood all these things?” and then says that the “scribe discipled to the kingdom of the heavens is like a man that is a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old”. Matthew 13:^[p. 299] 52.

JT Very good. He would be conserving things and keeping them in order, and yet liberal in his outlook, so that he would readily extend them to others, for he brings them out of his treasure; he values the things himself, they are not common to him, and he would expect those that he would give them to to regard them according to their value, because they have their own value. Anyone who has anything from the Lord regards it according to its own value, and wishes others to regard it according to its own value. The truth has value, and is not to be regarded as a common thing to be accepted or rejected. The truth is one whole, the Spirit of God is here to guide us into all of it, the whole of it, and so if anyone has anything that is distinctive, he values it, according to what it is as the truth, but he expects others to value it too, and it is for each of us, and all of us, to be in the thing and promote it as a community, because it really is the common property in a sense, but not common in character, it is exalted, it is the truth.

AA In chapter 4 Paul speaks of the grace that is given to each according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

JT Paul is not saying that of himself specifically, he is saying what is to be regarded as current among the saints. He does not think of specific gift, but what is general, that every saint has something that he can use in the service of God, but of course, Paul is not putting himself on that level in chapter 3. He is speaking of what was exclusive to him, but also as it is spread abroad by him in his ministry; it is not common, only in the sense that the other apostles and prophets have part in it. John the apostle also says in his first epistle, that the apostles had a fellowship of their own; “our fellowship” he says. It was not shared in by all the saints, it was a fellowship that belonged to the apostles; “our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ”. 1 John 1:3.

^[p. 300] It did not extend to all the saints; it related to the apostles, their fellowship, and that fellowship was with the Father and the Son. The Father and the Son were setting out the testimony, but They brought the twelve into it, and in this they had a fellowship of their own, as it were; others had a fellowship with one another. That is an important matter to understand in John’s epistle, that is to say, these grades, the Father, the Son, the apostles, and one another.

EuR In the third epistle he says, “We therefore ought to receive such, that we may be fellow-workers with the truth”. 3 John 18. There is the idea of a community in the truth.

JT I am glad this matter has come up, because it should be understood.

JR How do we “have fellowship with us”; that is, the apostles, according to 1 John 1:3? “that which we have seen and heard we report to you, that ye also may have fellowship with us; and our fellowship is indeed with the Father, and with his Son”.

JT Well, that is the order in which the truth was inaugurated. Everything proceeded from the Father and the Son. In John’s gospel, from chapter 13 to chapter 17 there is much that you do not get elsewhere, but it is what the Father and the Son had and the disciples were brought into that. The Lord is labouring in those chapters to have the saints, the apostles I mean, in view of the coming in of the Spirit, fully furnished with the setting out of the truth. The Spirit of truth, the other Comforter, coming in, according to chapter 14, would enable them to hold it together, but it would be in relation to the Father and the Son, not necessarily yet with the whole assembly, but in order to establish the position of the apostles. According to facts set out in Acts 2, the early converts persevered in the apostles’ doctrine; that is to say, they would talk about what the twelve were talking about; anything of the truth that the ^[p. 301] twelve would give out; and, of course, it was constantly coming through them. Well, each convert would see to it that he had part in that, what the apostles were going on with.

Ques Would Paul’s desire that the saints might have “the spirit of wisdom and revelation”, Ephesians 1:17, show his recognition that, whatever he might do in the way of service, God must do something in the saints, if the ministry is to find currency generally?

JT Well, just so. The work of God must go on in the saints as well; that is to say, if the whole structure of truth is to be participated in by the saints, there must be the work of God, and hence the great point for us in these matters, is the presence of the Spirit. That is not simply what happened while the Lord was here on the earth in flesh and blood, but what happened as He went up to heaven, and the Spirit came down, because that was really when christianity was inaugurated.

Ques When Paul says, that “ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery”, Ephesians 3:4, does he allow that Peter also had a revelation in Matthew 16 and Acts 10, which would be generally known by the saints, but that the revelation of the mystery which was specific to him, completed the word of God and gave the assembly its final and distinctive setting.

JT In Colossians he tells us of the number of ministries he had, and amongst the things he mentions is that he completed the word of God, and Peter would recognise that.

Ques Are you trying to help us as to being in the truth livingly as knowing it?

JT Well, just so. What we are aiming at now is not simply what was, but what is, and whether what was may be present in operation, that we may all come into it. We are seeking to get at the truth as a whole. Although we are dealing with special parts of it, yet what is in mind is that the Spirit shall guide us into all the truth,

^[p. 302] and it is a question of our moving in this way, so that in whatever part of the country or the world we may reside, we may be holding divine things in the sense of a community, and that we are all in it. The Spirit of God is ready to help us wherever we are, so as to bring out the unity of the truth, that we may “arrive at the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at the full grown man, at the measure of the stature of the fulness of the Christ”. Ephesians 4:13.

HW Would you say a word on “the Spirit is the truth”? 1 John 5:6.

JT Well, that is important. The Lord said of Himself I am “the way, the truth and the life”. John 14:6. He was the truth when He was down here, but now that He is up in heaven, the Spirit is the truth, and that is an important matter, because of what christianity involves. It is the day of the Spirit now really, as we have often said; and the Spirit is to govern everything in relation to the service and testimony. He is here on the behalf of Christ, another Comforter, on the same footing, but another Comforter. He is sent from heaven; Christ was not sent from heaven, He came Himself; He was sent as here on earth; He was sent by the Father, but He came from heaven, the Son of man which is in heaven; the Spirit was sent from heaven; 1 Peter 1:12.

WC What you are saying would fit in with John’s remark in his first epistle, chapter 2, “a new commandment”, “which thing is true in him and in you”. 1 John 2:8.

JT Well, that is good; that is to say the Spirit having come it is so, it was true in Him only when He was here after the flesh, but now that He has gone to heaven, having accomplished redemption, it is true in the saints as well, and that is because of the Spirit being here.

Ques Do I understand that “the Spirit is the truth”, 1 John 5:6, is a subjective thought?

JT Quite so; it is most important to have it in mind.

^[p. 303] It is a question of what is in the saints, what is current in us, operating in us.

Ques Would not the washing in Ephesians 5 be on that line?

JT Well, quite so, but it is in view of the assembly specifically, “the washing of water by the word”. Ephesians 5:26.

FJF Is it so, that the Spirit being present there is capacity in the saints to take in the truth ministered? Would that be an encouragement to those who minister?

JT Everything depends on the Spirit, even the new birth, as all other things. All is dependent on the presence of the Holy Spirit here on earth, only it is a subjective thought; in a certain way He is viewed objectively, but generally He is viewed subjectively; that is, He is viewed as in us, but His doings, His operations are in us.

AJG Do you mean not merely in the way of intelligence, but also in the way of formation in accord with the intelligence?

JT Quite so, as power for all operational power is in the Spirit.

SMcC Would not this help us very much at the present time, especially when there is a danger of crystallising certain terms in relation to the truth? We may say that what is coming out now differs a little from what came out before, but a recognition of the Spirit in relation to this is most important.

JT Just so. If we go over the ground since the beginning of the revival, much has had to be corrected, but in general the truth went on, it was one idea, the truth is one whole.

HFN Why does it say in regard to the Spirit of truth that He “goes forth from with the Father”? John 15:26. What would be the emphasis in coming forth from with the Father in relation to the truth?

JT I think it is good to bring that up, because it is that passage particularly that clarifies the position of the twelve, as compared with the position of the Spirit.

^[p. 304] They had a place of their own, just as we have already remarked as John said, “our fellowship is indeed with the Father and with his Son”. 1 John 1:3. But then the Spirit proceeded from the Father, knowing full well what the Father thought about the Son, and He brought out immediate first-hand knowledge of the Father’s feelings, His feelings about the Son. So that there were two things then current, that is to say the Spirit having come forth would bear witness, and then, “ye also shall bear witness”, John 15:27, ye also, is the Lord’s way of calling attention to the twelve. They had been with Him from the beginning, shared His afflictions, and they had distinction that none others had or will have. I believe that is what is in mind there.

Ques The Lord said, “Every one that is of the truth hears my voice”. John 18:37. Is that in contrast to the spirit seen in Pilate who did not pay heed to the voice of the Lord?

JT Just so, the spirit of the world was in Pilate, but there is the Spirit of truth that we have spoken of much. When anything is communicated now the Spirit communicates it, but it cannot be exactly new. It cannot be a revelation in the full sense because Paul said that he had completed the word of God. But the Spirit being here, as anything is revived or reissued and becomes current among the brethren, the thought would be to spread it, but first let us verify it, to be assured that it is the truth, and then spread it. When “the Lord gives the word, great the host of the publishers”, Psalm 68:11. I mean to say that faithfulness, a knowledge of the truth, and love of it, will publish it, and not hold it in any exclusive way, for it is a common matter, so to speak; it should be spread abroad.

Ques Is there a suggestion of that with Peter’s word in regard of Paul? He speaks of our beloved brother Paul, and then of the things that he was saying as though he would help to spread it among the saints.

JT Just so.

Ques Does Paul’s own outlook show itself in the word enlighten? He says, “and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery”. Ephesians 3:9. Does that bear on the present time?

JT Well, quite so, and that will come into consideration more fully later, I think, when we are dealing with the gifts in chapter 4. Paul had gift, as the others had; he had the gift of an apostle, the gift of an evangelist, the gift of a teacher, and he used these gifts; but as to revelation, that was not gift. I think it is in the power of gift that the truth is to be spread abroad.

Ques Would we see something of the same thing in the exercise of Samuel? He “judged Israel all the days of his life. And he went from year to year in circuit to Bethel, and Gilgal, and Mizpah, and judged Israel in all those places. And his return was to Ramah; for there was his house, and there he judged Israel; and there he built an altar to Jehovah”. 1 Samuel 7:15 - 17. His concern seems to be that all Israel should be founded and built up upon the same principles.

JT Well, I think that is good, he was the representative, you might say, of the word of God at that time, a chosen vessel, a trusted vessel, and honoured in the sense that his words did not fall to the ground. That means that the saints held them in their hearts, they fell into the hearts of the saints; that is really what is meant. So that the truth is to be in our hearts.

PHH Would God calling Bezaleel and Aholiab, as well as giving Moses the pattern, be on the principle of what you are saying, so that everything might be constructed properly and understood by the saints? It says, “Jehovah has called by name Bezaleel”, “and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship”, Exodus 35:30:31. Would that be for the spread of the truth according to the pattern?

JT Quite so, so that Moses was over all as apostle. It was not the office of the priest to receive communications ^[p. 306] exactly; it was the apostle that received communications from Jehovah. And in Numbers 7 it is said that Moses went in to speak to God. He had in mind to speak to God, but God spoke to him, as if God is saying to Moses that He is communicating to him. It was the time of revelation, and therefore He spoke to Moses. I believe that passage is what is in mind throughout, when it is said, that “Jehovah spoke to Moses, saying”. Numbers 7:4. God took up the attitude of revealing things in speaking to Moses from between the cherubim; the authoritative position that He took up in order to unfold the law, the service and all else; it was given to Moses. But then God gave wisdom to the two men spoken of, which would be the idea of extending or, in Paul’s time, for example, the idea of gift. So that the Lord would say the word through Paul, because Paul completed it, but then the gifts would come into the spreading of the thing, whether in the gospel or the ministry of other kinds.

Ques How does Paul’s word in Acts 20:27 come in? He says, “I have not shrunk from announcing to you, all the counsel of God”.

JT Well, that would be his ministry; that would not be simply the thought of revelation; it was Paul’s ministry, what he declared in ministry, he had not shunned to do so, he tells the Ephesians.

JFG Does verse 4 of our chapter set out the matter for us? He says, “according as I have written before briefly”, Ephesians 3:3, I take it that would refer to what was revealed to him and then, “by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence”. Ephesians 3:4. Would that relate to the dissemination of the truth which you are calling our attention to?

JT Well, I think that is right. Some may think it is some other word that he had given, but anyway, he says it is “according as I have written before briefly, by which, in reading it, ye can understand my intelligence in the mystery of the Christ”. Ephesians 3:4. Whatever the communication was, it conveyed something of this ministry, that ^[p. 307] is what I would understand. When we come to chapter 4, we shall be, perhaps, in a position to take up the question of gift, the ground on which it is set, and how the truth enters into it, and what it has to do with the truth, but now we are dealing with things that are the result of revelation.

HFN What is the distinctive feature of the mystery as presented in this chapter? One would desire if one could get some further help in regard to it, as it seems to relate to the spiritual substance of this epistle.

JT Well, the mystery in this chapter is spoken of in verse 2, “that by revelation the mystery has been made known to me”, Ephesians 3:3, and then this runs on down to verse 8, “To me, less than the least of all saints, has this grace been given, to announce among the nations the glad tidings of the unsearchable riches of the Christ, and to enlighten all with the knowledge of what is the administration of the mystery hidden throughout the ages in God, who has created all things, in order that now to the principalities and authorities in the heavenlies might be made known through the assembly the all-various wisdom of God, according to the purpose of the ages, which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord”. Ephesians 3:8 - 11. Now that is the mystery that is in mind in this chapter, but in chapter 5:32, it is said, “This mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. Ephesians 5:32. As I understand chapter 5 he alludes specifically to the marital side as entering into the truth of the assembly, the allusion being to Genesis 2, and carried down in the Lord showing to the disciples His hands and His side. The allusion there is to the formation of Eve, typifying the assembly as out of Christ, as of Christ, and therefore the thought of union enters into it. We have to bear in mind what in chapter 3 is indicated in the word mystery; “the revelation of the mystery”, Romans 16:25, are the words Paul uses, and then his remark in Chapter 5, “This mystery is great, but I speak as to Christ, and as to the assembly”. Ephesians 5:32. So that ^[p. 308] what is before us now is the thought of the mystery, first in the general sense, in the setting out of the truth, and then in its special sense as the bride of Christ, taken out of Him.

FJF Was the revelation made known to him on his way to Damascus, in the voice from heaven? The Lord said, “Why persecutest thou me?” and “I am Jesus whom thou persecutest”. Acts 9:4,5.

JT Yes, the Lord referred to His body here.

AHG Is the mystery in chapter 3 more universal in its bearing than that spoken of in chapter 5? I was thinking of the all-various wisdom of God in chapter 3?

JT I think it is more general, that is to say, as composed of Jew and gentile. Whereas chapter 5 alludes to Genesis 2 and, as was remarked, to what the Lord said as He rose from the dead, when He showed the disciples His hands and His side; the allusion would be to His love for the assembly as having come out of Him, as Eve was taken out of Adam.

Ques Would the mystery be in connection with the assembly’s relation to God in chapter 3, and in relation to Christ in chapter 5? The all-various wisdom of God is in chapter 3.

JT Well, I think that is right, in a general way, because in chapter 3 the word is, “that they who are of the nations should be joint heirs, and a joint body, and joint partakers of His promise in Christ Jesus by the glad tidings”, Ephesians 3:6, whereas in chapter 5, the mystery alludes to Christ viewed as coming out of death, and the assembly as coming out of Christ.

Ques When you make a distinction between the truth of the mystery in a general sense, and the marital side, have you in mind that the marital side involves what is between Christ and the assembly exclusively; whereas when you speak of union in a general sense as fitting into the truth, it is the divine pleasure secured in the man and the woman ^[p. 309] together?

JT Yes, and what part God has in that.

Rem The divine pleasure I meant, God’s part, God’s pleasure in it. I do not think we have made sufficient distinction in our minds between the two sides.

JT Well, that has been before me, too. I am not sure that there is just time for it this morning, because it requires more time, and maybe more power to open it up; the subject is extremely important, especially as it has to do with the service of God in its present provisional setting. I am not sure that we are just equal to it now, but what we have had has been enough to go on with at the moment; namely, that chapter 3 is the general thought, the more general thought of the assembly as bearing on the general testimony of God.

SMcC Would that be why the thought of families is introduced in this chapter, in verse 15, “of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named”? Ephesians 3:15. Do the families fit in more with the general side of the testimony of God?

JT That is right, I would say. And so the prayer governing that, the prayer of this chapter as compared with the prayer of chapter 1: in this chapter it refers to the Father and the many families.

SMcC It is generally thought, and spoken of sometimes that the families go through into eternity, but does this chapter contemplate them going beyond the millennium?

JT Let us look at the passage. Paul says, in verse 13, “Wherefore I beseech you not to faint through my tribulations for you, which is your glory. For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, of whom every family in the heavens and on earth is named, in order that he may give you according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power by his Spirit in the inner man; that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend ^[p. 310] with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”. Ephesians 3:13 - 19. I think the bearing of the reference to the families would be on the Father; it is a question of source, of God being the source of all families. The apostle then runs on to the assembly, having only the assembly in mind, especially in the doxology. But he says, “that the Christ may dwell, through faith, in your hearts, being rooted and founded in love, in order that ye may be fully able to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and depth and height; and to know the love of the Christ which surpasses knowledge; that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”. Ephesians 3:17 - 19. The apostle in the doxology has the assembly, I would say, in mind altogether; that is, it is the assembly in Christ Jesus. The other families are not dealt with specifically in this chapter save that the Father is the Father of all of them.

PL Would that not find support in the Lord’s own utterance, “In my Father’s house there are many abodes”, John 14:2, each family taking its place in its own appointed abode in the way it has apprehended Christ, the Father’s house being an eternal thought? But the Lord at once passes on to the you, “I go to prepare you a place”, John 14:2, is Paul doing likewise here?

JT Quite so. In that sense, the Father’s house in John 14, corresponds with what we are dealing with here, in both cases the idea of the many is left open; we have to find instruction as to it elsewhere. John 14 says, “I go to prepare you a place; and if I go”, “I am coming again, and shall receive you to myself, that where I am ye also may be”. John 14:2,3. It does not extend beyond the saints at that time, and so here, the instruction does not extend beyond the assembly; the doxology is the real terminus of the chapter in that sense. “But to him that is able to do far exceedingly above all which we ask or ^[p. 311] think, according to the power which works in us, to him be glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. Ephesians 3:20,21. The apostle is confining what he is dealing with to his own charge, as it were, what had been committed to him.

FJF Would it be right to say, the light of the Father having come out, that in some way that knowledge shines throughout all the families; God is known as Father?

JT Well, I think that is right, and chapter 1, of course, in our epistle, would mean that Christ is over them all, He is set over all things to the assembly. He is Head over all things to the assembly. The assembly is included in the headship; what the Lord is doing as Head over all things, the assembly has part in. So that we do well to keep to the subject of the assembly in this epistle.

Ques Would the reference to the other families, both in John 14 and here, be to provide a sort of background to bring out the distinctive place of the assembly, that there is nothing else to compare with it?

JT Well, and all else will be affected by it, it is the capital of the universe really, and all light I would say goes out through it. At the same time other families have their own distinction, and it enriches the idea of the Father to say that He has them.

PHH Is the distinction of the assembly borne out by what is said in verse 19, “that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”. Ephesians 3:19. Would you say a little about the adequacy of the assembly in that relation?

JT The assembly is in mind, “that ye may be filled even to all the fulness of God”. Ephesians 3:19. It does not exclude the other families, because they in their turn will come into the fulness too, the fulness of God, but the assembly predominates in everything, I would say, on moral grounds, it predominates in everything.

Ques Why is it the assembly in Christ ^[p. 312] Jesus?

JT Well, I think the preposition in as we have often remarked, implies power, that the position is in power, and it bears on the service of God just as we have been saying. This chapter bears on the service of God, as does chapter 5, only here in chapter 3 it is more in relation to the general position of the assembly. It is the place it will occupy in the universe, I would think, but in the service of God “in Christ Jesus unto all generations of the age of ages”. Ephesians 3:21. That is a remarkable expression, which I suppose means eternity, the special place that the assembly has in the service of God in eternal ages.

AJG Is it necessary that the assembly should have some intelligence as to the other families, and the vastness of the system that God has before Him, in order that she might be enriched in the service of God?

JT Quite so, everything is there for the moment, I would say, and it is a provisional moment too, that is another thing to bear in mind, that the service of God is in a provisional situation now; but this closing passage regards it in its universal setting, “the assembly in Christ Jesus, unto all generations of the age of ages”. Ephesians 3:21.

AHG Is the expression “in Christ Jesus” distinctive to the assembly?

JT I would say so, it is an expression often used as to position, and the position of the assembly is designated in that way, but it implies power.

JCW The Spirit of God in Ephesians 5:30, says “we are of his flesh and of his bones”, and in the end of Luke, “a spirit has not flesh and bones”, Luke 24:39, but in Genesis 2:23 Adam says, “This time it is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh”.

JT Well, what Adam says is in keeping with what we have here. The Lord said, “a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having”. Luke 24:39. He had flesh and bones, and the assembly is in keeping with that, because the idea of bone is to bring out the framework, what the ^[p. 313] assembly needs is a framework, the frame corresponding with Christ. It is no question of blood, but of bone, because the bone gives the framework of the body, and then the filling up is the flesh.

SC What is the moral thought entering into the idea of the rib?

JT Well, the allusion is to the inwards, the inwards involving the assembly taken out of Christ, or Eve taken out of Adam. It is not an external idea, it is an inward thought, as indeed the breathing into Adam by Jehovah was an inward thought. And so too the breathing as the Spirit came down was inward; and so the idea of what is inward is stressed in this chapter 3, the inner man. It is all, I believe, bearing on the idea of what is inward, even in divine Persons, to speak reverently, for the idea of what is inward is there, and how it is transferred to us in the inner man.

Ques Referring to the Lord’s statement “a spirit has not flesh and bones as ye see me having”, Luke 24:39, do you regard that as meaning that the Lord had such a body?

JT Yes, the Lord had such a body as that, but we are to be transformed into conformity to His body of glory, not simply what He was here after He rose, but His body of glory, we are to have bodies like that.

Ques Referring to the Lord’s body, do you not think that there is an advance in the body of glory mentioned in Philippians, on what the Lord had in the forty days of His resurrection?

JT I think there is. You would not like to say much, but it is remarkable that it says: “his body of glory”, Philippians 3:21, The full thought is set out in that, and we are to be conformed to that.

Rem So that the forty days was an educative period for the disciples. Our seeing the Lord “as he is”, 1 John 3:2, would correspond to Paul’s words, “his body of glory”, in Philippians 3:21.

JT Quite so, “we shall see him as he is”, 1 John 3:2, as He is; that is, as He is in heaven now.

DJM Is the Father’s Spirit the power for us to move in the service of God now?

JT Quite so, the Spirit of the Father.